25-30% of US population are Christian fundamentalist extremists. That's a lot.

[AlinPA]

(Howard Zinn , "A Power Governments Can't Suppress" @Brandeis U talk shown on CSPAN). If we add to that number another 20% for other right wing conservatives and they are tough to beat. It is going to be a tough one in '08 when they get their religious hate machine wound up on their usual issues- prayer in schools, abortion, creationism, hatred of gay people. Lots of work to do between now and then.

[twilight_sailing]

1. Maybe in the South,

well, hell, sure, it's at least that much in the South. Can't we just let them go? They always wanted to be Independent anyway.

Let them have things their own way. Without us.

[Greyhound]

8. I've posited that it was a tremendous error for Lincoln to commit the lives

of millions to the forced, and fake, unity of the nation. Had he let them go, their economy would have collapsed and in a decade or less, they would have been forced to crawl back after admitting their error of judgment. As it was we have spent the last 140+ years in a vain attempt to mollify their ridiculous world view by allowing them to dictate the course of our nation. Every single step forward that this country has taken in that time, we've had to drag them along kicking and screaming the whole way.

Sometimes for a child to learn a lesson we have to let them try and fail on their own.

[twilight_sailing]

13. Jesus,

that's tough.

As a son of the South, damn, I'd rather have a root canal.

I agree with you. Slavery would have perished. Look around the world. It would have died. Leaving the Southerners nowhere.

I refer to this part of the country, in my missives to my relatives there, as the Heart of Darkness.

[Greyhound]

20. I too love The South, although since I wasn't born to it, probably to a lesser

degree, I just think that "the war of northern aggression" allowed them to be the victims and to cling all the more to their mistaken ideas.

I've taken some pretty heated abuse over this in the past and have never been able to get it across that I think southerners are, for the most part, kind, caring, and especially wise, it's just that losing the war has energized the worst parts of their past and kept it alive to this day.

And we wonder why those in the middle-east keep their ancient conflicts going... There's nothing like old atrocities to keep the hatred burning.

ETA: we also seem to have forgotten that the most violent and extreme reactions to integration in the 60's came from places with names like Boston and Chicago.

[twilight_sailing]

24. Yes, that victim mentality

survived at least until I was a kid in the 60's.

Are they good folks? If I was in trouble and I had a choice between a Yankee and a Southerner to help me out, I'd be a fool to pick the Yankee.

I am old. I know.

[Greyhound]

28. Just one of the qualities that make living there so nice.

Never had so many neighbors that were, not only willing, but anxious to help out anytime and in any way they could. I really miss that, but I've found it somewhat similar here, there is a friendly, helpful attitude that is very refreshing, and we (mostly) vote for Dems.

Peace.

[twilight_sailing]

29. Gosh, I've been living in New Mexico for most of the last 20

years. We are real Blue out here.

And yet...

I remember.

[twilight_sailing]

43. Boston

Just for the record they integrated my small town Southern school about the same time Boston's schools were integrated.

You know, I don't even like that word, "integrated". What happened was this, they brought the black kids into the white school. "Integrated" my ass.

You know what happened in Boston? I remember. Fucking riots in the streets. Those Yankees, those supposed intellectuals just could not handle it.

Fuck them and fuck you, gentle reader. We had two fist fights and that was it. Yes. Fuck You.

Call me a liar.

[twilight_sailing]

45. Nothing matters but you.

Go back to sleep.

[Greyhound]

51. ?Did you reply to the right post?

cause that's what I said, the biggest a-holes were in the north, and you are not a liar as far as I know.:shrug:

[cui bono]

52. I think he was either talking to himself or talking in his sleep. nt

[Warpy]

32. Agricultural mechanization would have killed slavery

within 50 years. After all, you don't have to FEED machinery. Slaves who ran away would probably have not been worth tracking down.

Their main exports would have remained cotton, tobacco and citrus, all of which can be cultivated elsewhere.

Slavery was an evil that needed to be abandoned. However, letting it die a natural death would have cost many fewer lives.

Dixie has been dragging this country backwards ever since the break with Britain. Perhaps isolation combined with a precarious economy would have taught them the lessons they needed to learn.

Southern lefties are the toughest and most committed lefties in the country, though. They have to be.

[twilight_sailing]

41. Ah, Warpy,

I have such a crush on you.

[tnlefty]

49. "Southern lefties are the toughest and most committed lefties",

thanks for the recognition! I'll admit that it gets downright depressing sometimes - the same battles over and over again - but then it is time to regroup and come back up swinging!

For now I've given up on the 'more flies with honey' approach. I've discovered that with a LOT of the people that I come into contact with the straightforward followed by the verbal 2 X 4 upside the head approach at least gets them thinking.:evilgrin:

[AJ9000]

67. I'm a Southern leftie. You know why there aren't more of us?

Guns are important here - used for hunting and self-defense in rural areas where law enforcement is sparce.

When certain Dems and "liberals" talk of taking or severely restricting guns, Southerners quickly vote republican. I've heard it many times.

[MasterDarkNinja]

57. I don't know about that

I've heard on some documentaries a few years ago that supposibly there's more slaves in the US now then there were in 1865 right before the civil war was over. How they can possibly keep track of that when slavery is illegal I don't know. Percentage wise though it's probably got to be less slaves now then then.

I agree though that the old divide from the civil war is still in existance today, just look at an electoral map for the 1860 and 2004 presidential elections. Switch the parties around, and ignore states that weren't states in 1860 and you'll see that the map is almost exactly the same.

[Clark2008]

50. Oh nice South bash.

But, to break it to you gently: Fuck no.

No, there aren't 25 to 30 percent fundies in the South. I doubt there is that many in the United States, as a whole, despite the OP's source.

Remember, that between 42 and 48 percent of us Southerners in any given Southern state DID NOT vote for Republicans in any election.

And, if you'll take a second to look at a fucking map, the reddest states are in the mid-West, not the South.

I do have to ask why, as a so-called Southerner, you hate your area so much?

:eyes:

[blitzen]

61. don't forget other strongholds...Colorado, for instance...

and pretty much everywhere else.

[rockymountaindem]

63. Not anymore

Their hold is weakening here.

[blitzen]

64. good to hear...although accounts I've read of Colorado Springs...

and it's "Stepford" people are truly frightening.

[rockymountaindem]

65. I live there

The Springs is still the same, but the BS that eminates from Dobson's fortress on the hill is covering less and less of the state.

[aquart]

2. ALL fundamentalists are extremists?

And why are you supposing the coalition of conservatives and fundamentalists is made of cement? Crumbled ever so nicely in November.

But then, lumping people as if they had no ability to make choices for themselves, as if they were automatons or robots, as if they only existed with one issue, is...well...simplistic and, fundamentally, useless.

But thank you for your concern.

[twilight_sailing]

4. I'd debate this, if you like.

If you want, state a position. Is it that folk are differnt? No debate.

Am I missing something?

[AlinPA]

7. Should I have said "extremist Christian fundamentalists" ? Like extremist

Muslim fundamentalist (or whaever religion). I think that group is a block that won't change.

[twilight_sailing]

21. You don't know that that is true, do you?

Rush might say such a thing but not me.

[AlinPA]

31. ???? Sorry, just trying to clear it up. Whatever, they vote straight the God ticket.

Peace.

[twilight_sailing]

33. Define God.

[AlinPA]

34. You got me now.... I need to clean up my vocabulary.

[twilight_sailing]

35. No offense intended, buddy.

It's my fault. Sometimes I just get feisty.

[AlinPA]

36. Peace. Actually after reading all these replies it sounds like the number is about

20% or so, not as many as Zinn said.

[twilight_sailing]

37. May God's blessing be upon you

May your wishes all come true
May you always do for others
And let other do for you...



No kidding, mi amigo, I am giving you my best, stolen from Bob Dylan, blessings.

I wish you well.

[AlinPA]

38. Thank you. That was beautiful.

[twilight_sailing]

39. Here's one to think about.

You probably deserve it.


Keep on keeping on, mi amigo.

[Richard Steele]

22. Maybe that would have been a better label to use, maybe not.

Either way, they simply are NOT 30 percent of the US population.

[Greyhound]

11. All religious fundamentalists are indeed extremists.

To claim certitude of that which, by its very definition cannot be known, is extreme.

[twilight_sailing]

17. Define

fundamentalists and extremists.

[rocktivity]

44. Extremists are fundamentalists

who advocate violence, discrimination, opression, or government sedition as methods of forcing their religious beliefs upon us all.

:headbang:
rocknation

[BayCityProgressive]

3. there are tons of them

they are insane. I am really getting to the point of disgust with this country. I feel close to just giving up and leaving. If we don't make a MAJOR turn in course we are going to collapse economically and politically like the USSR. Raising the minimum wage and other weak things that the Dems have done so far are nice...but it's like putting a band aid on an amputated leg.

[Lithos]

5. That's a self-reported estimate

The actual number is probably much softer (lower) than that.

L-

[napi21]

6. I don't believe the # is anywhere that high. If you believe what this

guy is saying, that would mean that 50% of the population is Pub! Even if it were close to that, why would Shrubs popularity be at 29%?

Naw, I'm not even sure I'd by 25-30% being conservative. At least not STRONG cons.

[crim son]

9. I wouldn't care if they weren't so determined to make the rest

of us play by their made-up rules and worship their made-up god. They scare the hell out of me.

[Aviation Pro]

10. If one takes the present population of the US....

...that makes it 75 to 90 million people and includes all the children. Nah, not buying it.

[PurpleChez]

18. I too have always had trouble with those figures,

the rough estimate that one third of the population is far-right fundie. I live in a red county in a red state, and I certainly object to the mindset and influence of the fundies, but I've always found it hard to believe that one person in every three was some freakazoid who wants to replace the US Congress with a reconstituted version of the Sanhedrin.

[ruggerson]

12. I thought I read that it was about 15% at most n/t

[PaDem]

26. it's about 18% right now............

that will slowly increase over the next ten plus years.

[PresidentObama]

14. New Poll: 25-30% are hypocritical morons n/t

[pretzel4gore]

15. easy to find...

but nevermind these guys; they are ignorant and it shows up in their effectiveness. go after foxnews, cnn, limbah-humbug and the mediawhores! after a few nazipoohs mediaho's get kneecapped, you will see the truth suddenly all over the news, and bush incorporated goes down....

[EST]

16. Although they are referred to as fundamentalists and they seem

to have assumed that mantle for themselves, it has been pretty well established that they are not really fundamentalists at all.

The extremist label certainly applies, but, even by their own definition, they cannot be as represented. In the case of so-called Christian fundamentalists, they would scream like a crushed cat if confronted with the list of fundamental tenets they must follow to claim such an appellation.

We are the unfortunate beneficiaries of a cusp where the forces of aggressive, conscienceless, greedy anti-democratic elements have been able to combine corporate money, better communications and the desperate fear of disenfranchisement to roll back the real fundamentals of a liberal democracy.

From the standpoint of a successful republic, these people are truly evil. They will always be with us, so there's no way to zap them out of our world, so we must find a way to pull their fangs.

We now, indeed, have one those "if it doesn't kill us, it will make us stronger" situations.

[Madspirit]

19. I thought

I read once that it was 25% of Bush's supporters who are far, far, far right-wing fundies. I certainly hope that is more accurate than the OP. If not, I need to find another country to live in because I am more scared of those people than any other people on the planet.
Madspirit

[Peace Patriot]

23. I think the whole rightwing thing is way overblown by the Murdochs of this

world, and that Howard Zinn has been watching too much TV. (Yes, I know who he is and have read his books.)

[Greyhound]

30. How can you reconcile that with what our country has become?

Millions without homes, health-care, or hope and we just don't give a fuck. Is that America? Not the one I grew up in. How many times have you pretended that you didn't see that woman in the filthy clothes huddled in a door way trying to keep warm with newspapers? What do you say to yourself to justify their wretched condition? Drug addict? Brought it on themselves? Not my problem?

No, they're everywhere, and they are a significant minority, at least. Welcome to amerika&trade

[Celeborn Skywalker]

48. I for one don't deny there's many rightwing extremists

I'm just saying that I doubt that many of them are Christian fundamentalists.

[MasonJar]

25. Actually Dr. Zinn said the total extremists was about 25%. I saw

much of his talk and it was solid info that should be heeded.

[MasonJar]

27. I take extreme umbrage that the enlightened talk by Howard Zinn has

turned into an stereotypical indictment of the South. There are just as many fundies in the Midwest and the West as there are in the South. I leave the Northeast out because I am unfamiliar with their numbers, but I am confident that that section has plenty.

[OHdem10]

40. I believe Zinn distinguished.--

20% Fundamentalist Extremest.

All Evangelicals are not extremest. When you add Evangelicals
with Fundamentalists naturally numbers go up. Very often teaching
and practices differ often greatly.

[rocktivity]

42. I think Foley, Haggard and Jesus Camp have taken care of that

At least for the "moderate" fundamentalists. It certainly showed up in the midterm elections.

:headbang:
rocknation

[sakabatou]

46. Well, more fodder for FSTDT

[elfin]

47. The "base" of dumbya's base

Appalling so many have succumbed to non-reason as a way of life ---- and voting.

[seabeyond]

53. and they all live in amarillo texas.... rollin eyes... n/t

[Efilroft Sul]

54. Nearly all the social conservatives I know have "buyer's remorse."

I posted on this issue back in October:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2886626&mesg_id=2886626

Since then, all but one social conservative (and by "social conservatives," I do mean religious people; evangelicals in many cases) I know has turned on Bush, the war, and the wedge issues.

We share more common ground with social conservatives than you think. Talk to them, work with them where we agree, and you'll find many aren't "nutjobs" after all. In fact, right now, they are as fractured in opinions about Bush, the war, and the environment as we are with our primary favorites here on DU. Once you find that common ground and trust, then and only then do you talk about the political hot tamales.

Posters on DU ride the Bush administration for not trying diplomacy with Iran and Syria, and the administration deserves that criticism from us. But it's time to practice some diplomacy of our own, with people we haracterize as belonging to the other camp. It works for me. You might not see immediate results, but you probably will in 2008.

[rocktivity]

55. Social conservatives? Is that what Christo-facists call themselves now?

x(
rocknation

[Efilroft Sul]

56. Not all Christians are fundamental whack jobs.

And not all conservatives are fascists.

The social conservatives who share common ground with us go to church, live traditional lifestyles, and love this country as much as we do. Many put their trust in God, and many seek what passes for the truth through religion. The people you shouldn't waste your time with are those who claim they've found the truth. Those, I think, are who you would call "Christo-fascists," and having any political dialog with them is pointless.

There is a big change going on right now with America's politically concerned Christians, and I think we saw the beginnings of it with the November vote last year. The socially conservative Christians I know are all greatly disturbed by global warming; they aren't watching the "Rapture Index" and hoping to be teleported to Heaven soon. Rather, they and their churches see themselves as stewards of the land. They are acutely aware of the "conserve" root with "conservation" as well as "conservative." If environmentalists want to expand their numbers, look to churches that share this ground with you. Want to expand your numbers even more? You'll find hunters, many who are socially conservative with or without strong religious beliefs, to be some of the most ardent supporters of ecological conservation. It's no small coincidence that the Rocky Mountain states are starting to go blue because the Democrats there have appealed to pro-gun social conservatives who also want to keep the land from being exploited by lumber and energy concerns.

Common-ground issues build a consensus. Consensus wins elections for Democrats. To not build a consensus means we let the Republicans exploit the electorate with wedge issues and win.

[rocktivity]

59. I know the difference between "the Christian right and the right Christians"

as Al Sharpton once put it. And I hope the November election will prove to be the first step the right Christians take toward establishing a political distinction between them and those who "you shouldn't waste your time with" because "any political dialog with them is pointless." And notice that you yourself use the term "socially conservative Christians"--real Christo-facists prefer "social conservatives" because it hides their theocratic agenda.

:headbang:
rocknation

[Efilroft Sul]

66. rocknation, your Reverend Al quote sums it up.

The fundamentalist Christians who often hide behind the "social conservative" appellation are Dominionists. These people are part of the Christian right, and my friends don't like it when the Dominionists muddy the waters. There's nothing conservative about a movement that wants to radically overhaul society from top to bottom. My friends call them "oxymorons" by definition.

[KingFlorez]

58. I don't believe that number

If the percentage was that high, they'd have more electoral strength than they have.

[depakid]

68. I don't believe it either- it doesn't square with the GSS data

which provides much more accurate measures of religiousity in America.

[johnlal]

60. Don't worry, fundamental Christianity is in its last throes...

(Insert Cheney joke here)

Seriously, we have been waiting 2000 years for Christ's return. The early Christians believed that Christ would return in their lifetime. Every doomsday cultist since Christ's death has believed that Christ would return within their lifetimes. Many of the Fundamentalist Christians that are figuring so prominently in our Country's political affairs today believe that we are currently in the war that will result in the end of times. The one Christian Church has now splintered into over 1000 different denominations or sects, each one believing that they are the true religion, and you are going to Hell. There are political forces further dividing many of those sects and denominations.

Also, look at the charismatic leaders of the Christian Right: Billy Graham is 88; James Dobson is about 70; Jerry Falwell is 73; Pat Robertson is about 75;

[Labors of Hercules]

62. I worry not so much about these lunatics as the evangelicals...

The countless masses who flock to 3000+ member open-door stadium churches with light-shows and surround sound to satisfy their feeling obligated to be Christian when they actually aren't.