Jeez Tucker - the next time you want to discuss whether Obama's church's "Black Values System"

[beaconess]

is a black "separatist" notion, you might want to include a black person in the discussion . . .

instead of encouraging two other white people to trash Obama for being hypocrite because his church has the nerve to use the term "black" in some of its programs and philosophy, whining that because "Christianity is color-blind" Obama's church shouldn't focus on helping the black community.

Nothing like watching three white people - one of whom frequently references the race of various politicians - lecture a black man about "colorblindness."

[madrchsod]

1. so the news media has three aryan nation sympathizers

using the code words.."black-`niggers`- values system"..it`s it a wonderful nation we live in?

[beaconess]

8. This is what Tucker found to be "separatist" and so objectionable

Trinity United Church of Christ adopted the Black Value System written by the Manford Byrd Recognition Committee chaired by Vallmer Jordan in 1981. We believe in the following 12 precepts and covenantal statements. These Black Ethics must be taught and exemplified in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They must reflect on the following concepts:

Commitment to God

Commitment to the Black Community

Commitment to the Black Family

Dedication to the Pursuit of Education

Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence

Adherence to the Black Work Ethic

Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect

Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"

Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black Community

Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions

Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System

Personal commitment to embracement of the Black Value System.

The Pastor as well as the membership of Trinity United Church of Christ is committed to a 10-point Vision:

A congregation committed to ADORATION.

A congregation preaching SALVATION.

A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.

A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.

A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION.

A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION.

A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.

A congregation committed to LIBERATION.

A congregation committed to RESTORATION.

A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY

Sounds good to me . . .

http://www.tucc.org/mission.htm

[madrchsod]

9. yes it sounds good to me also

[beaconess]

10. Of course, he didn't read - or even reference anything beyond "black values system"

Instead, he insinuated to viewers that Obama was involved in some kind of black nationalist church.

Apparently, white folks can refer to and identify blacks by race to their heart's content - as evidenced by, among other things, Tucker's insistence that there was nothing wrong with Sen. Biden referring to Obama last week as "the first mainstream African-American" just last week. But if black people refer to their OWN race, regardless how positive or innocuous the context, we are "black separatists."

"I actually felt sorry for Joe Biden. I mean, he`s -- you know, especially on the left, the political correctness is so overwhelming, you can`t say anything without someone jumping down your throat." Tucker Carlson, February 1, 2007

[illinoisprogressive]

2. So agree and I'm white. Why are white people discussing something

about any black issue or controversy without having an african american there to say why.
Personally, I think it's stupid to even discuss it as Sen Obama attends a black church So, it would be obvious that Obama's church would address black values and issues. duh.

[beaconess]

4. duh, indeed

The fake indignation was probably the worst part.

To his credit, one of the guests, Tom Andrews tried to defend Obama, pointing out that just because something is "black" doesn't mean that it is necessarily anti-white, but the fact that he even had to do that was ridiculous.

[twilight_sailing]

3. WTF?

I am rarely at a loss for words, hell, usually you would be lucky to shut me up, but...

[Dean Martin]

5. hence the reason I like for African Americans here to weigh in

I always see discussions involving race with only a handful of African American members contributing.

Why are people here starting discussions about these issues without including someone from that persuasion?

[beaconess]

7. I think there are a couple of reasons

In my view, some people with the purest intentions - they are interested in the topic and want to discuss it.

However, some other people - including Tucker - are extremely arrogant and think that they can speak for and lecture to black people about all manner of issues, including those they know nothing about. The irony is that most blacks know and understand whites very well, since it is virtually impossible for a black person to function or even survive in America without having considerable interaction with and deep understanding of white people. On the other hand, many whites really don't know blacks at all beyond the most superficial level.

And, I have found that those whites who do truly know and understand blacks rarely pretend to be "black people experts." It is those with limited knowledge who seem to do most of the pontificating.

Bill Bradley gave a brilliant and insightful speech in 1991 about how he learned to come to terms with race in America.

"I was a professional basketball player for the New York Knicks. From September to May for 10 years I travelled across America with the team. It wasn't a high school or a college team. We were professionals. Basketball was our work, and we did it every day, together. Each teammate had a different set of friends in every town, but day in and day out we lived together, ate together, rode buses together, talked together, laughed together, and, of course, played together. During those years, my dominant teammates were Willis Reed, Dick Barnett, Walt Frazier, Dave DeBusschere, and Earl Monroe. We created one of the first basketball teams to capture the imagination of the national TV audience, and we won the hearts of New Jersey and New York. it was an extraordinary group of human beings.

"But I wish I had $100 for every time the last 20 years that someone, usually a white person, asked me 'What it was like to play on the Knicks and travel with my teammates?' 'What was it like?', I asked. 'What do you mean?' 'Well, you know, guys who came from different backgrounds, had such different interests than yours.' 'You mean that most of them were black? That I was living in a kind of black world?', I'd ask. "Well, yeah,'" they'd finally admit. 'What it was like on that team?' 'Listen,' I'd say, 'traveling with my teammates on the road in America was one of the most enlighting experiences of my life.' And it was. Besides learning about the warmth of friendship, the inspiration of personal histories, the powerful role of family in each of their lives, and the strength of each's individuality, I better understand distrust and suspicion. I understand the meaning of certain looks and certain codes. I understand what it is to be in racial situations for which you have no frame of reference. I understand the tension of always being on guard, of never totally relaxing. I understand the pain of racial arrogance directed my way. I understand the loneliness of being white in a black world. And I understand how much I will never know about what it is to be black in America.

[Dean Martin]

21. I only realize what little I've realized....

...from being with my girlfriend and being around her family and friends, and from reading books like the ones I've mentioned in other threads written by black authors, and from whatever programs I can find on educational tv. Whenever I find anything I study it in an attempt to learn more. And I always like learning about all cultures, something that really seems to be lacking in just about every white person I know around me in my world.

All I can say is, the one thing I do understand at least some is the pain and suffering the white race has inflicted on other cultures, and it never ceases to pain me almost to tears when I think of it. To come here and see the same ignorance I've come to only expect from right wingers only saddens me more.

As for Biden, why not just show someone respect through actions rather than through making some clumsy stupid comment that directs attention to race? People aren't ignorant, they don't need Biden to bring to their attention that Obama is African American. I think they can figure that out on their own.

Doesn't matter to me, Obama is the best candidate for president I've ever seen.

[beaconess]

22. Your perspective is very interesting

I wish more people tried to really understand this issue. And it's really sad to me how many supposedly liberal and open-minded people have attitudes virtually indistinguishable from right-wingers.

[Dean Martin]

27. yes, that was an eye opener for me

As I originally came here thinking there would be more opened minds than what I had been running into at other message groups over the years, many populated by more right wingers than left. That's one aspect of DU that has greatly disappointed me so far.

[beaconess]

28. I've been deeply disappointed, as well.

But now I know why so many DUers insist that America is too racist to elect a black president . . . they're speaking from much closer to the heart than I knew.

[Dean Martin]

29. I fear you are right

I wish it weren't so, and I hope it becomes not so during my lifetime. And it's such a damned shame, because Obama's the best person for the job I've ever seen. I certainly want him in the WH more than I'll ever want to see Hillary Clinton there, I can tell you that!

And now there is a black conservative group attacking Obama because he approves of gay marriage.

Personally, I think the gay marriage issue is the stupidest thing on this planet for anyone to be concerned over. With all the important problems we have going on in this world, everyone has to obsess over something that doesn't affect their life one way or the other.

They're also attacking Obama because he is pro choice, as am I. I will never believe that a woman should be forced against her will to carry a child to birth, no matter what anyone says. Women have been forced against their wills enough in the history of the world.

[AtomicKitten]

6. It's just the bitchy Media Heathers discussing the popular kids.

[madrchsod]

20. LOL...heathers two is in the works.....

[TankLV]

11. Yes - isn't it "refreshing"?!

:sarcasm:

[MadMaddie]

12. So why doesn't Tucker ask the same question about

Brownback or the Morman Guy. No minorities or others in their very white churches?

It's offensive that he even brings Obama's church into the conversation.

This is another way to make America think race isn't an issue today? Why do minorities, need organizations like the Black Caucus, the Latino Caucus, the Womens Caucus? Why do blacks have to go to go to black churches with black empowerment beliefs and positive messages?.

It's racism and it's not a valid question unless it's asked of all candidates Repug and Dem. And note he didn't say it about Hillary's' church, Edwards?

Why are the networks letting these so called journalist get away with this bullshit racism?

And you wonder why the KKK and other groups are experiencing growth in their numbers....every time a Repuglican is in office their numbers go up.

Just sayin...

[beaconess]

13. Reminds me of the age-old question: "Why do all the black students sit together in the cafeteria?"

Of course, people only seem to notice that one or two out of 100 tables in the room are filled with black people - so that means the black people are all sitting together. They don't notice that the other 98-99 tables are all white - which means the white kids are all sitting together, too. But since the white kids are just "people" and the black kids are the "black people," it's incumbent upon the "black people" to make the effort to spread themselves out in order not to be blamed for "sitting together," while the white kids are free to bunch together in their large, homogenous groups with impunity. And anyone who raises a question about why the white kids are all sitting together is accused of "playing the race card."

It's the same reason that a school, neighborhood, business, etc. that are 90% white and 10% black are "integrated," while entities that are 51% black are "black."


Unfortunately, we still have a long way to go.

[MadMaddie]

14. Yes...you have summed it up in a nutshell.

Unfortunately equal rights for all Americans has been set back at least 10 - 20 years by this administration and the Repug Congress.

Yea America has a long way to go....

[beaconess]

15. You're wrong, MM

Equal rights have been set back, not by the Administration, Congressional Republicans, or insensitive or bigoted people - they've been set back because black people complain too much.

If they'd just shut up about it, everything would be hunky dory.

:sarcasm:

[MadMaddie]

16. Touche~

And you have captured the Republican thought process at it's best:puke:

[beaconess]

17. Sadly, as evidenced by some of the DU discussions on this issue . . .

the thought process is not limited to Republicans. :-(

[MadMaddie]

18. This is true....

[beaconess]

19. TRANSCRIPT:

TUCKER CARLSON: Coming up, Barack Obama`s church outlines a black values system, whatever that is. We`ll tell you what it is and what it means for his candidacy.
. . .

Barack Obama is a member of a church called Trinity United Church of Christ. It`s a predominantly black church in Chicago, that espouses something called the black values system, which includes calls for congregants to be soldiers for black freedom {*}and a, quote, disavowal of the pursuit of middle classness.{**} Now, it would seem to me, Tom, not to make a broad sweeping statement here, but a racially exclusive theology, a theology that ministers to one group of people, based on race, kind of contradicts the basic tenants of Christianity, and is worth talking about. Wouldn`t you say?

ANDREWS: Well, let`s look at what those values actually are. We`re talking about hard work, self-reliance, belief in god, and if you have made it to the middle class, you have an obligation to those who have not. Now, those sound like pretty good values to me, black, white or whatever, and I think that Barack Obama should not be ashamed of having those values and being part of a church.

CARLSON: Again, those are great values, that I hope I embody. However, it`s the word before them, black. It`s making them racially specific. Again, Christianity -- this is a subject that I am actually qualified to discuss -- is, it seems to me, almost explicitly anti-racial. The idea is that we are all equal in the eyes of god. When you espouse a theology that is racially exclusive, as this appears to be, it`s hard to call that Christianity. I think it`s pretty easy to call it wrong.

ANDREWS: Well, I don`t think it`s. I don`t see anything exclusive about it.

CARLSON: Soldiers for black freedom, what about soldiers for freedom for everybody.

ANDREWS: Fine, black, white, whatever, but in this particular case, these are soldiers for black freedom, and belief in god, and hard work, and self-reliance, and helping your brother and sister. There`s absolutely nothing wrong with it. You know, I`ll tell you, opposition research is a growth industry. And just fasten your seat belt, Senator Obama, because it`s coming at you.

CARLSON: I think this is fair, because I think -- trust me, I think a lot of opposition research, and I get a lot in my inbox, is crap, and I ignore it, because who cares. But this is interesting because Obama has spoken so forcefully and so often about his own faith, and held up his membership in a Christian denomination as evidence of the pureness of his heart. He said, look, I`m a Christian, OK, period. So it`s fair to take a look at his theology. And, you know, I like Barack Obama and I don`t think he`s a scary guy, but this stuff sound separatist to me, I have to say.

LESLIE SANCHEZ, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well that`s the bigger issue. You know, what`s interesting about it is in the black churches there is a political alignment, in terms of vertical. You have a lot of civil rights leaders who come out of the pulpit, who basically move a message of black empowerment, civil rights empowerment. It hearkens back to the civil right movement. And a lot folks look at this --

You know, Barack Obama is trying to appeal to the masses. And this makes him appear like he really is focusing on one ethnicity and that`s African American.

CARLSON: Or his church is --

SANCHEZ: Or that his church is, but he basically said, you know -- in defense of it, he said, to he who much is given, much is expected. You know, he was trying to say, no, really, we just have an obligation to look our for our fellow brethren. But what we`re trying to say is, look, this is a color blind society. Christianity is for everything. And that`s why, is this something you believe personal, and if so, you need to share it.

CARLSON: Well, I don`t know if it`s a color blind society. I think it ought to be. It`s definitely a color blind religious. There`s no doubt about that. It`s not a racially exclusive religion. Now Barack Obama, the only guy running for president, that I know of, who smokes cigarettes.

__________________________________________________

*As far as I can tell, the church's black values mission statement mentions nothing about being a "soldier" for anything.

** "Disavowal of middleclassness" is actually, disavowal of the PURSUIT of middleclassness,a very Christian notion. Rev. Jeremaiah Wright has written extensively on this and, if Tucker had bothered to do even the most basic research, he would have known, not only that Obama describes it in detail in his first book, but this is a very respected and interesting principle. Far from being, as might be inferred from Tucker's comment, the rejection of middle class values, it is the rejection of the obsession with the negative aspects and material trappings of middle class attainment that cause people to lose sight of their Christian purpose.

[ktlyon]

23. Tucker had a bad day

He also berated Obama for quiting smoking, while endorsing the nicotine gum product being used because he found success with it.

[beaconess]

25. That was a hoot

I loved how he criticized him for trying to quit as if it was some kind of cynical political move on his part.

[skipos]

24. Maybe Tucker is afraid of blacks like Glen Beck and O'Rielly. nt

[beaconess]

26. Oh, no! He said that Obama's not "a scary guy"

Of course, that could just mean that he THOUGHT Obama wasn't scary but now he wonders since he's into that "black values" thing - maybe he's pretty scary after all.

:sarcasm: