Heads up! Ralph Nader on The Daily Show tonight! (coming up)

[Up2Late]

I hope Jon gives him HELL!

And if you missed it, TDS just did a rap up of all the nasty and stupid things the 24/7 Cable "news" did and said about the Astronaut that went a little crazy a few days ago. I HATE what they have done to our T.V. News. :mad:

[John Q. Citizen]

1. I bet Jon and Ralph hit it off. They both speak truth to power. I don't have cable

but I will watch for the video.

[Up2Late]

4. Yup, that's pretty much what happened...

...he still not ready to take any of the blame for costing Gore the election.:dilemma:

[John Q. Citizen]

5. Good, last I heard the GOP stole Florida. I don't believe

Ralph should let the GOP off the hook.

[SharonAnn]

8. GOP stole Florida. Supreme Court awarded the Presidency.

[John Q. Citizen]

20. Yes, that's the truth.

[pnwmom]

9. They couldn't have stolen Florida without Nader's help.

Nader, by insisting on campaigning hard in Florida (and refusing to endorse vote swapping between "safe" and "swing" states) helped to keep the margin razor slim. That's what allowed the Repubs to steal it.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[John Q. Citizen]

19. They would have stolen it no matter what. Do you believe that if Nader had

dropped out, that Jeb and Kathryn Harris would have just gone home and said, oh well, george doesn't get to be pres?

No way.

[The Magistrate]

21. They Would Not Have Been Able To Steal It, Sir

Nader brought it in reach; everything else they had tried fell well short of their margin otherwise, from the purging of the rolls to the rigging of the butterfly ballots. Subtract him from the equation, and they were down a good twenty thousand votes. Denial of this is an exercise in low comedy, not debate.

[JNelson6563]

22. Exactly right

If Ralph hadn't made the margin that much smaller, it wouldn't have been that much easier for them to steal.

While I do not blame Ralph entirely for the debacle of 2000 (as some here do) I cannot help but marvel at those who think him blameless.

Remarkable all the way around.

Julie

[John Q. Citizen]

24. Jeb and Katheryn are the villains here. We are

looking at a minimum of 50,000 votes in the purging of legal voters plus whatever they stole through butterfly ballots plus whatever they stole through manipulation of the machines.

As a Magistrate, one would hope you would reserve your condemnation for the law breakers who stole the election instead of for the person who aspired to the perfectly legal pursuit of the American dream ie, growing up and running for President of the United States.

To attempt to blame a lawful citizen acting lawfully for the illegalities of the white collar criminal class who knowingly stole an election is a misguided and dangerous precedent.

It allows the lawbreakers cover and diverts the blame to the blameless.

So what did Nader do in Georgia 02, in Ohio 05? Why was your villain not required at those crime scenes for another major crime to occur?

When one person can electronically manipulate the results of an election, there will always be scapegoats offered up to cover the tracks of the scoundrels. We must not be so naive as to buy into diversionary scapegoating, but rather keep our eyes on the criminals who are stealing our votes.

Denial of this is to invite further tragedy; That is not debatable.

[The Magistrate]

28. Villains Often Have Accomplices, Sir

Persons who aid them in their wrong-doing, and whose assistance is essential to their success at crime. Nader is just such an accessory. Without his participation, the theft of Florida in 2000 could not have been pressed successfully by its principals.

The other two items you mention bear no relation to this question. The Georgia matter is interesting but quite unproven. The raw practices of Blackwell in Ohio are well known: he was a bit better at the work than Harris. Events generally are unique, and it is not necessary for a factor present in one to be present in others.

[John Q. Citizen]

30. Your conspiracy theory is interesting to say the least. Do you have any evidence, say

wiretap tapes, witnesses, documents that show any of the minor party candidates running in Florida colluded with Jeb and Harris to enable them to steal the election?

Or is prejudiced fanciful thinking at work here?

Because if you have evidence of a conspiracy i would love to see it.

[The Magistrate]

32. No Allegation Of Active Collaboration Is Made, Sir

Nader's impact in this is along the lines of that of those persons Lenin was fond of refering to as 'useful idiots', who did things that advanced the prospects of Communism though they were not affilicated with the movement, and often even ostensibly opposed it.

His presence on the ballot, and the line of "not a dime's worth of difference" he pressed, materially aided the Republican campaign, and the specifically the theft of Florida. The latter could not have occured without his practical assistance.

[John Q. Citizen]

33. Well, I disagree. I believe they would have stolen Florida in any event. We

already know that bush was ready and willing to mount a challenge in the event that Gore was awarded the Electoral College vote and bush garnered the popular vote.

The Florida legislature may have just awarded the delegates to bush out right, just as they planned to do when it became apparent that Gore did in fact win Florida, before the US Supreme Court stepped in.

Be angry at Ralph if it makes you feel better, but don't confuse Ralph with the real problem here.

I for one am not going to blame Nader for the criminality of others. I do blame him for spiking the Greens chances to get a ballot line, though. Not that I'm all that mad about it.

[The Magistrate]

35. You May Well Disagree, Sir, But You Are Wrong In Doing So

Nader was the factor that put the state in the enemy column. Other factors were present and contributed, but they were the routine sort of sharp practice that occur to some degree in all elections, albeit carried to greater than usual efficiency. Nader was the anomalous factor, the break from routine, as a prominent left splinter candidate, which is far from a usual factor in electoral contests here. This is why the practical blame concentrates on him: the usual sharp practice fell short, and the novelty made up the margin.

[John Q. Citizen]

36. Well I think you are wrong. Nader was no more anomalous than were bush,

Gore, or any of the other minor party candidates that ran.

And if denying the right of suffrage based on race is, just business as usual in your opinion, then it's not surprising that the elections in our country are so corrupt.

But that corruption should be laid at the feet of the powers that be, not the prominent left splinter candidate.

edited for spelling and to add...

And there is another factor which we haven't yet touched on. That challenge from the left by Nader such as his remark about the apparent lack of major differentiation between the two major parties, that one assumes Nader's voters as agreeing with, resulted in Gore moving his campaign toward a more populous theme. This was called very bad at the time by some members of Gore's party if you recall. Particularly by those most closely associated with the splinter group known as the DLC. I believe, in part, that this populist shift by Gore in response to Nader was in part responsible for Gore's winning the popular vote both in Florida and nationwide.

So perhaps you should be thanking Mr. Nader for providing the impetus for this strategic realignment instead of dunning him for running for President.

[The Magistrate]

37. To State A Thing Is Usual, Sir

Is hardly an endorsement.

It is simply a fact that attempts, some more successful than others, to suppress the vote of minotities and other identifiable groups likely to vote against a party in charge of electoral machinery are the routine stuff of polictics in this this. It is part of the standard calculation professionals must engage in.

A prominent left splinter candidate is not a usual factor in our country's electoral politics: left splinter candidates are usually a near anonymous flotsom of Marxist die-hards and cultists who get no air-time or press coverage.

This anomalous presence, not seen before and not seen, really, since, is what threw a spanner in the works. The Republican professionals would have failed without it.

The question is almost never whether someone has a right to do something; it is almost always whether doing a thing is wise or not. Nader's actions were extraordinarily foolish, and have had terrible consequences for the people, the country, and the world. The man really does possess the wit to have foreseen this, and so ought to have refrained. Not having done so, he must bear the terrible responsibility of the consequences of what he did, and so must his followers and supporters.

[John Q. Citizen]

38. Well, I can see you don't like Ralph's politics. I think there is a connection here.

I also haven't seen Gore blaming Ralph for the stolen election. So I have to assume that Mr. Gore does not share your views, and why should he?


I think Ralph helped Gore. (see my post above, post edit) And Ralph helped the country through the highlighting of our racist and elitist policies concerning the conduct of elections.

So I guess the twain here will never meet. But, that's not at all that unusual here on DU.

So good day to you, and it was nice chatting. I have to go out now.

Peace.

[The Magistrate]

40. The 'Not A Dime's Worth Of Difference' Line, Sir

Is a useless one, that consistently works when employed to the benefit of the Republicans.

Nader provided no assistance whatever to Vice-President Gore in 2000, nor to the Democratic Party, nor to the people of the United States, nor has he improved his performance in the subsequent years. He expended, and expends, far more energy in attacking Democrats than Republicans: he is, after all, fishing for votes on the left, and can only get them by detatching them from the Democratic Party coallition.

That Republican money was donated to Nader's run in 2000 is well known, and that in subsequent years the Green Party has been in many instances kept in existance solely by funds from Republican donors, is also well known. It is the judgement, backed by cash, of cut-throat professional operatives that Nader and the Green Party cut to the benefit of Republicans, and to the detriment of the Democratic Party. The followers and supporters of Nader and the Greens may crawfish and squid's ink all they wish, but cannot obscure these realities.

[John Q. Citizen]

46. Ah, but's that's the rub, isn't it?

Democratic candidates also take money from Republican backers. And they have taken far more money from Republican backers than Nader could ever dream of.

So, I say it's time to condemn this practice by both Nader and the Democrats.

Are you with me on this?

It was Bill Clinton who said, "If you lie down with dogs, you wake up with flees." He was right.

[The Magistrate]

47. Not The Same Thing, Sir

And you know that.

Interest group donors typically contribute something to both parties, as a species of insurance since the outcome may be other than expected. One can assign party preference to these mostly only by proportion: one that gives seventy to one side and thirty to the other is assigned to former in common parlance. But it is not really part of the former's organization, or necessarily allied to, or even friendly with it.

Party operatives channel funds to spoiler groups for the purpose of fragmenting their opposition, just as intelligence agencies fund various subversive trends in hostile countries. The Green party today is essentially dependent on Republican operatives' infusions of cash for its existence: it is, in effect, the left auxiliary of the Republican electoral operation.

[SharonAnn]

39. many things brought it within reach, including the butterfly ballot .

[The Magistrate]

42. That Is Mentioned Above, Ma'am

This thing is analagous to a fire, in its commencement and extinguishing. Fuel, oxygen, and heat are all required for combustion. Neither one or two of these items will suffice to start it. Remove any one of them, and the combustion will cease. In most instances, some fuel, and oxygen, are always present, and it is the addition of heat to what is normally present that creates the flame. In the theft of Florida, the normal means of corruption, and the will to steal, were present, but by themselves were inadequate: the addition of the heat of Nader to the normal fuel and oxygen of means and will was needed to produce the flame of successful theft.

[Chemical Bill]

43. Thank you, JQC.

I don't understand people who blame Nader when the fraud was done by repukes. There was one county with minus 1600 votes for Gore. That was publicized because of an internal memo from the fraud company...oops, I mean the voting machine company, and fixed. How many more votes were turned from the light to the dark side and not discovered? That is of course added to the problems you mention in other posts. Let's talk about the media recount, where every statewide recount scenerio gave the win to Gore. We have and will continue to have election fraud, and people insisting that Nader was to blame for the results of the 2000 selection obfuscate that critical issue. My opinion is that the repukes let us have 2006 in order to foster complacency. Numbers posted here at DU show that the 2006 election would have been a bigger victory for the Democratic Party if votes had not been tampered with.

Bill

[John Q. Citizen]

45. There was a late night computer glitch here in Montana in 06 as well as

in Virginia.

Ours was in Yellowstone County, the most populous county in the state. Home to Burns. It was also the only large population county in the state where more people voted in the US House race than voted in the US Senate Race. We have one Congress critter for the whole state.

It stopped everything and it looked as if the fix was in, because Burns was going to win out on the plains, but with a small enough margin we knew the Western cities could win it for Tester.

Man it was unbelievable. My organizer in the Tester campaign had to leave our election night celebration at around midnight in case he had to drive out east and duke it out with the Repos. He was on call in case he was needed to monitor the situation. Luckily the turn out for us was big enough in the West and small enough for Burns in the East that we eeked it out.

[OwnedByFerrets]

2. I hate what he did

to our country almost as much as what monkeyboy has done to our country.

[John Q. Citizen]

6. You hate the Freedom of Information Act? You hate seat belts? You hate

democracy, and the belief that anyone can grow up to be president?

Ralph is one of the good guys. I never heard Gore blame him because the GOP stole Florida. Ralph isn't perfect but he's not some evil demon.

Don't let Jeb and Kathryn Harris off the hook. They were the ones who disenfrancised 50,000 legal black voters in Florida.

[pnwmom]

10. Thanks to Bush, we're seeing the steady erosion of the

Freedom of Information Act. And Nader helped to get him into power.

Maybe Nader likes having the bigger boogeyman as President, because that gets more donations for "Public Citizen" and all of its good works.

[John Q. Citizen]

14. If scape goating is your cup of tea, then bitterness will be your refreshment.

Cheers!

[MrSlayer]

3. Nader says "The election was stolen, why blame me?"

Basically.

[John Q. Citizen]

7. He's right. The GOP would have stolen it either way. I know that.

But it's nice for them to have a scapegoat.

[pnwmom]

11. You don't know that. The Repubs required a close margin for their

dirty tricks, and Nader made sure they had one.

[John Q. Citizen]

15. I guess you never heard of Georgia, 02? You missed Ohio 2005? Look,

if your goal is to downplay election fraud, then I'm through here.

You can blame, you can game, but shame, shame, shame!


Or maybe you really are that naive?

They usually cook the numbers at the end of the night, you know, when the computer fails at 10:30 or 11:00 O'Clock on election eve, just like it did in Florida in 2000.

That way, they have a very good idea of how many votes they need to pull it off.

Nader had nothing to do with that. Nader was scapegoated for you to hate so you don't pay attention to what's really going on.

I'm sorry for you that it worked on you. Another progressive discredited, Gore and the voters are cheated, and you have a gut full of righteous indignation. At the progressive that's been discredited.

Think. for just a moment.

[pnwmom]

16. 2000 paved the way for Georgia and for 2004.

They knew that the media would let them get away with anything.

Now you tell me why Nader was so insistent on campaigning hardest in the swing states, instead of letting his supporters in those states swap votes with Dems in the swing states.

[John Q. Citizen]

17. They outlawed it. in CA. The Secretary of State threatened the vote swap

sites with legal action.

I know, because I was working to promote vote swap.

I don't believe Nader is one of the bad guys. He not perfect,(no one is) but he's done more good for the people of this country for a long long time than anyone I can think of.

I think he screwed the greens over, by not putting his energy where it would have most helped the Greens. But i don't believe Nader is a secret agent for the Right Wing.

And more to the point, I don't think Nader is to blame in the least for the GOP stealing Florida.

I wouldn't vote for him whether he runs or not in 08, but villian is not what comes to mind when I think of Nader. For that matter, i don't think he's a hero either, In fact, I don't much like to use those terms of thought when dealing on the political level.

But Nader's positive impact on our country is not a disputable fact. In my book anyway.

[Cleita]

12. Jon was sure fawning all over Nader, even though he did

show at the beginning of the interview how badly he has treated his employees in the past. Nader also busted any attempts his employees did to try to unionize. He doesn't come across liberal to me by his actions no matter what he says.

Sure he talks the talk. He is of course a brilliant speaker and can sway your opinion by telling you what you want to hear, that Gore really won the election and the Supreme Court awarded the Presidency to Bush. However, he doesn't tell you that he divided enough of the left vote to make it possible for Bush to steal the election.

Sorry, but the man persuades you by knowing what you believe in and he affirms that then he takes the conversation a bit further now that he has your attention to tell you what he wants you to believe. Pretty slick of ole Ralphy.

[underpants]

23. I didn't think he was fawning at all

he lead right off by asking him if he wakes up everyday thinking about what he caused by running in 2000 and then went on to air real criticisms of Nader.

The part at the end about Prescott Bush and Nader's mother was very intriguing.

[Bucky]

29. Sorry, but Stewart was hat-in-hand thru the whole interview

You're right that he asked him if he wakes up thinking about if he caused the Bush mess, but then at least three times in the interview he prompted Nader by saying how faulty that view was. It was a real softball treatment, what Stewart himself would call a "reach-around" if a real reporter had handled an interview that way.

Of course Stewart is an entertainer, not a journalist. But the softbal treatment was pretty obvious.

[grasswire]

18. I despise Ralph almost as much as I despise Republicans.

And that's a lot.

Liar. Damned liar.

[mainegreen]

26. You must abhor consumer safety then. nt

[grasswire]

27. it's obvious that he sold out at some point

A shame for him, and a tragedy for America (2000).

[liberal renegade]

25. I don't believe Ralph Malph had anything to do with it

but hanging chads, Scotus, Jeb and Cruella did..

[fuzzyball]

31. I guess Ralphie must have found that old rumples suit ?

[mtnsnake]

34. I'm mad at Nader for 2000, but I can't wait to hear what he has to say. nt

[AtomicKitten]

41. He's right about so much AND I effin despise him.

Oh the mystery of me.

[Zodiak]

44. Not really

A lot of us have that reaction to him. I know I do. I am a Molly Ivins liberal and voted for Nader out of Texas in 2000. It was a safe bet for me out of Texas and I wanted the Green party to have funds for the next cycle because they were finally speaking truth to power after America's long, fawning embrace of the corporation.

Nader really soiled himself in 2004 with his antics, but I am not pinning that on the Green party. By then, former Nader voters were firmly voting for Kerry...they knew the score.

In 2000?...well...I'm not sure ANY of us anticipated what was going to happen in 2000 (I am not saying that to copy Bush or Rice or anything...that is really the ONLY time that this statement is true).

Nader has been right about a few things concerning American politics....but his accusation is broad-brushed rather than focused. He is right that both parties are too beholden to the corporations, but he fails to mention that one party is only half-so and needs some real fighters to change it from within. That has been my experience since that awful election of 2000, but it took six years of learning and researching to get there.

[bedazzled]

48. i voted the same way in NJ -- since gore was a dead cert to win...

and i've had nothing but (joking) abuse from my husband over it -
"having helped to select bush."

i laugh at my husband, now. i tell him, at least i never voted
for LIEberman...

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

49. John and Ralph are old friends, actually

When John subbed for Tom Snyder in 1996, he wanted Ralph as a guest to discuss his write-in campaign for president-but CBS canned the appearance, stating that it violated 'equal time" WTF?!?

[Time4Peace]

50. Nader won't run...

...if Kucinich has a chance
:toast:
Let's work for Kucinich and keep Nader out of it!

[Forkboy]

51. I suspect this argument will never end

Nice to know in the two years I've been away we've all moved on :)