Dean taught us how to speak about faith and religion back in 2004 in his book

[madfloridian]

He and some other candidates were just uncomfortable having to open up their faith to the scrutiny of hypocrites. I wish he could say things like this now. So many things in the book were clear like this.

From You Have the Power,snips from pages 92 and 93.

A few words from the leader of our Democratic party on truth, faith, and virture. In "You Have the Power", Howard Dean explains the worst things the Republicans have done to us.

.."The theft of meaning...of truth and faith and the ability to believe....has been one of the worst things the Republicans have done to the American people. It is time for the Democrats to fight back. We've got to fight fire with fire. Not by cynically co-opting the language of religion for our own purposes, or by blurring the line between church and state, or by aping the self-righteousness of the right wing. But by challenging their charade of virtue with a real politics of meaning."

He calls out those who are using their religion for political and other purposes.

"I am a Christian, and it seems to me that the right wing of the Republican Party preaches virtue on the one hand and intolerance on the other, while welcoming the money changers into the temple of government. Jesus spent most of his days ministering to lepers, prostitutes and Samaritans and advocating care for the poor."

"Those who wave the Bible as a threat to sinners ought to open it once in a while to learn from the teachings of Christ."

He further says Democrats can....say that our traditional mission of standing up for the disenfranchised follows the teachings of Jesus more closely than do the modern-day Pharisees of the right."

Those who have hijacked the GOP for their own purposes of religion are not about to stop telling our side what to do.

I think all of our Democrats should have come out swinging when Edwards was put on the spot. Then he would have been empowered to speak out more firmly for his bloggers. It is not going to end.

Frankness and open talk like this are needed to survive until 2008. I doubt Howard Dean will be talking like this as chairman, so someone needs to do so.

[hippiechick]

1. K&R

:applause: Dr. Dean: Ahead of the game, as always! :applause:

[FrenchieCat]

2. Thank you for that. I will add some of Wes Clark's quotes as well....

As they are much in line with what Howard Dean alluded to.

the Republican Party does not have the monopoly on faith in this country, and there are just as many Democrats who believe in religion, they go to church, they read the Bible, they say their prayers, they believe in God as there are Republicans. And I think that you'll see that in this next election."
WES CLARK--Nov. 24, 2003 candidate debate in Des Moines, Iowa

"If you're going to live your faith, you've got to take care of people. We're not just going to talk family values, we're going to help people live them."
WES CLARK--Baton Rouge, La. campaign event, Dec. 29, 2003


CLARK: Tom, I grew up in the South and I went to church every Sunday and I did all that and I can quote Scriptures and so forth. But, you know, I think that we need to preserve the separation of church and state. I think that kids in school should have the opportunity to pray voluntarily. But when I was a kid in school in Little Rock, we read the Bible and we prayed in home room every morning. And it never occurred to me that I had Jewish friends sitting right there. Now I think, "What must they have thought?"

I think we have to be sensitive to other people in this country, and that's why we need to protect the separation of church and state."
WES CLARK--Greenville, S.C. Democratic Debate, Jan. 28, 2004


"Ultimately, your generation will have the decisive voice. You will determine whether rage or reason guides the United States in the struggle to come. You will choose whether we are known for revenge or compassion. You will choose whether we, too, will kill in the name of God, or whether in His Name, we can find a higher civilization and a better means of settling our differences.
And this is not a new choice, not for your generation — it is a choice that many others have faced throughout history. Only now, we can hope that with your help and engagement we can find a new answer. - WES CLARK - Seton Hall Address, May 12, 2002
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wesley_Clark


"I am tired of being categorized as immoral and unpatriotic because I am a democrat and because I oppose this war. Why is liberal a bad word? It comes from the word liberty — a concept we used to cherish.

Family values include loving and embracing all genders, sexual orientations, races, religions, physical and economic conditions, etc. As a Christian, and more specifically, a Catholic, that is my understanding of what Christ teaches. Battling for separation of church and state is one thing. Now, we also have to battle for the separation of church and hate. Family values and morals include making certain that a parent or parents can support their children, provide them with a home, food, education, medical care, etc. And I am a patriot, despite opposing this war. We can't let the right tell us we are not because we question our leadership. It is my duty to question them. I do support the troops by questioning and opposing this war because, when I do, I help insure that they are sacrificing for a just cause worthy of their lives. When we don't, no one is there to protect them from the leadership putting them in harm's way for illegitimate reasons. "
WES CLARK -
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wesley_Clark

[Cha]

24. Thanks for those wonderful

quotes from Clark..I'm bookin' this thread!

[shance]

3. "The theft of meaning"

So many significant events where justice did not prevail have brought us to this theft of meaning.

The multitudes of lies which have been allowed and promoted by those in power to now be accepted as facts or as legitimate, the cover ups of assasinations of our best and boldest leaders and activists by those who hate and fear progress and fairness.

The disconnection between all of us, the epidemic of the world of convenience, which allows us to avoid those realities in our lives which would actually build our character and our confidence, and instead of stunting it.

So true and powerful that phrase.

[madfloridian]

5. Those in power are still not talking much about the lies...

It just seems odd they aren't. Now and then someone says something significant, then right back to the spin.

[madfloridian]

4. "The truth is we allowed this to happen by mostly remaining silent"

Further in the book Dean speaks of how an anti-democratic, openly anti-pluralistic, openly theocratic agenda happened:

From the 2004 book, You Have the Power, more on this topic.

The Republicans maneuvering brilliantly under the guidance of their language czars, learned how to cloak their ideology---and ideology far more extreme than what most Americans would accept--in words that sounded mainstream."

..."After Gingrich became Speaker, Brock reports in the "Republican Noise Machine", Luntz tutored newly elected Republicans in Congress on how to sell their radical agenda to more socially progressive neocons through careful turns of phrase."

..."The biggest coup of all, bring a team of radical right wing idealogues to the White House under the cover of Compassionate Conservatism.

Democrats and moderate Republicans have woken up and found themselves in an America ruled by people pushing forward intolerant, discriminatory policies....anti-woman, anti-gay, and anti-civil liberties, all in the name of God. The truth is we allowed this to happen by mostly remaining silent about the things that give meaning to people's lives."

[Bucky]

6. Um, not really

Perhaps Dean inspired you that way. If so, good. Some of us have been speaking about our belief systems all along. I really shouldn't use this example, but Hillary Clinton comes to mind as someone who's been pretty upfront for years over how her faith has shaped her politics.

[madfloridian]

7. No, she is talking in the "proper" format...not calling it like it is.

She is not talking sincerely about what has happened. We had a coup. Yes, Dean inspired me because he dared say it.

But then that does not matter now, does it?

Hillary is the one, she has been.

I have talked about my faith system...my church was hijacked. And it is being ignored like it never happened.

Dean at least once in 04 dared say it. We had a coup, and we are still in one and it is getting worse every day.

They all stood by and let Bill Donohue bully Edwards...all of them.

Dean ..."The biggest coup of all, bring a team of radical right wing idealogues to the White House under the cover of Compassionate Conservatism.

Democrats and moderate Republicans have woken up and found themselves in an America ruled by people pushing forward intolerant, discriminatory policies....anti-woman, anti-gay, and anti-civil liberties, all in the name of God. The truth is we allowed this to happen by mostly remaining silent about the things that give meaning to people's lives."

[madfloridian]

8. Here is an example of the type of religious extremism we have to fight.

If we keep tolerating this stuff, with no one speaking out...there won't be change.

A Florida lawmaker is refusing to vote for a bill to require hospitals to give contraception to rape victims. Why? He's a Christian.

Rep. Dennis Baxley, a leading conservative voice, said his belief that life begins at conception would preclude his support.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x215858

Florida rape victims probably don't get the pill offered to them now, and there needs to be a law. Things like this are what all of our side needs to speak up about.

As Dean said above:

..."it seems to me that the right wing of the Republican Party preaches virtue on the one hand and intolerance on the other"

[madfloridian]

9. Contact info for Baxley, in case anyone is willing to be outspoken.

He has religious music playing at his website. I was listening to some music on WMP, went to his site..had to turn off my music while I was there.

http://www.baxley4florida.com/contact.html

Tallahassee Legislative Office
204 The Capitol 402
South Monroe St. Tallahassee, FL 32399-1300
850-488-0335
[e-mail]

Ocala Legislative Office
111 SE 25th Ave.
Ocala, FL 34471-9179
352-732-1313
[e-mail]

Campaign Address
1515 E Silver Springs Blvd., Ste. 201
Ocala, FL 34470
[phone]
[e-mail]

His office is like that of my legislator here....they give you sermons and quote the Bible about gays and abortion if you complain. I told one aide to quit preaching to me when I called...she said she would pray that God forgive me. That was my local reps office. Gee, I hope she prayed away my sins.

So while folks like Baxley continue with their piety, Florida's women may not get help. There are MANY like him here, and no one speaking out on our side.

Good night, it's late. I want be at peace with religious ideas again like I grew up...but I can't tolerate this kind of stuff.

[DeepModem Mom]

10. Great post -- thanks, madfloridian! K&R

[madfloridian]

13. Thank you.

I guess I live among all this stuff, and I tend to get passionate about it. :hi:

[eridani]

11. Agree about Edwards

Never, ever apologize. Obama shouldn't have, either. But I'm still waiting for someone to say, in some form or other, that faith is not related to ethics in any way. Sure, plenty of people ground their ethics in some traditional (or new) faith, but if they are paying attention they will notice that many people of different faiths, or no faith whatsoever, will have arrived at the same ethical principles.

[madfloridian]

12. I think Edwards might have stood firmer if other Dems stood up with him.

Not one word out of any of the Democrats when he and his bloggers were under attack.

That is why I posted this. I really feel many of them just do NOT understand what we are facing. Dean said it in 04, but he is silent now as chairman. Time for someone else to call them out on their hypocrisy.

It was very little to do with WHAT the bloggers said, and everything to do with what the right wing did. They controlled us. I give Edwards the benefit of the doubt for now, I don't think he was prepared for it.

But they should all be prepared now.

[FrenchieCat]

14. But how can it be everyone elses responsibility to

defend John Edwards and his bloggers? John Edwards was not a victim to the extent that he could'nt have defended his own self and his bloggers.

I mean, that paragraph written about the 2 bloggers weren't exactly screaming defense....in particular the way it started out.

“The tone and the sentiment of some of Amanda Marcotte's and Melissa McEwen's posts personally offended me. It's not how I talk to people, and it's not how I expect the people who work for me to talk to people. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but that kind of intolerant language will not be permitted from anyone on my campaign, whether it's intended as satire, humor, or anything else."

Why should others have defended behavior that Edwards did not? He basically chastised them himself.....

Wasn't that his job, i.e., his campaign, his hires, his bloggers, etc...? :shrug:

[eridani]

15. While it's true that bloggers who sign on with campaigns have to give up--

--the option of being a loose cannon, I don't think its legitimate to hold their past loose cannon history against them. Edwards could have told them that they were going to have to lay off language like that in the future in order to continue to work for him, made a public announcement to that effect, and then gone after the fake reactionary "Catholic spokesperson" with rhetorical guns blazing. That's what we should expect of all our candidates, IMO.

[madfloridian]

16. Also depends on definition of loose cannon.

Amanda was pointing out the way the church controls private lives in bedrooms, and she gave her viewpoints.

I would not have used her words, but we have to stand up for this stuff. I think Edwards would have stood firmer if he had back up from the others.

Their turn is coming.

[FrenchieCat]

18. Maybe Edwards could have led by example.

It's easy to talk about what others should do......I just don't understand how you excuse Edwards for his lack of offensive tactics.

Why are others supposed to come to the rescue of someone who is basically asking to be the leader? Should the leader lead? I don't think that Edwards handling of this gave anyone courage to do anymore than what he did...which was certainly NOT to call out Donahue.

When Kerry got ragged on for his Botched joke, where was John Edwards?

When Michael Moore and the Dixie Chicks were being ragged on, where was John Edwards?

When Clark was being dogged because Moore called Bush a deserter, where was John Edwards?

Where was Edwards when Howard Dean was being laughted out of the primaries because of some silly footage in where he was energizing his supporters after a disappointing show?

Sorry, I don't get your rational on pointing fingers every which way but where it maybe should.

Then saying that others will get their turn. Hell most of them have gotten their turn, or didn't you notice?

[FrenchieCat]

17. And so that was my point.....Why should other Democrats have to go after

Donahue, when Edwards didn't even bother? I don't understand why that would be expected of others but not of him?

[eridani]

19. I DO expect it of him

All the candidates should get on board with a counterattack strategy, ASAP.

[madfloridian]

20. You are right. They need to develop a strategy now.

I will be honest, I think there is a good chance in Florida that a bill like the one above would not pass...there just are not enough Democrats (they are outnumbered here 2 to 1).

Charlie Crist even gave in to the Christian right here, went against his campaign promise to support stem cell research. He agrees now to say it is ok only if none are destroyed in the process.

I just don't think our Democrats understand really.

[Doondoo]

21. K&R

[madfloridian]

22. Thanks. It's a serious problem

:hi:

[Cha]

23. Why don't you write Dean and

ask him to bring this very important issue up again? It needs to be seen far and wide consistently because that's how often the hypocrital moralists get on the fascist tube and pontificate.

I've always agreed with Dean on this; that this is one of the worst scams they've pulled..course they couldn't do it without our greedy fascistmediawhores.