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Border Guards should be pardoned..... (Part 2)

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oldtimecanuk Donating Member (601 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 08:49 PM
Original message
Border Guards should be pardoned..... (Part 2)
Here is an earlier post by Phyllis..... and the link.....

http://www.eagleforum.org/column/2007/jan07/07-01-03.html

by Phyllis Schlafly January 3, 2007

President George W. Bush pardoned 16 criminals including five drug dealers at Christmastime, but so far has refused to pardon the two U.S. Border Patrol agents who were trying to defend Americans against drug smugglers. It makes us wonder which side the self-proclaimed "compassionate" President is on.

Border Patrol agents Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean were guarding the Mexican border near El Paso on February 17, 2005 when they intercepted a van carrying 743 pounds of marijuana. For what happened next, they were convicted and sentenced under a statute that was designed to impose heavy punishment on criminal drug smugglers caught in the commission of a crime.

The two agents are scheduled to start 11- and 12-year prison terms, respectively, on January 17, for the crime of putting one bullet in the buttocks of the admitted drug smuggler, Osvaldo Aldrete-Davila, and failing to report the discharge of their firearms. The non-fatal bullet didn't stop the smuggler from running to escape in a van waiting for him on the Mexican side of the border.

Rep. Dana Rohrabacher called the two agents heroes. "Because of their actions, more than a million dollars in illegal drugs were stopped from being sold to our children. Bringing felony charges against them is a travesty of justice beyond description."

The White House and the U.S. Department of Justice are stonewalling requests for a presidential pardon from 55 Members of Congress and U.S. citizens who have sent at least 160,000 petitions and 15,000 faxes. When the Bush Administration deigns to respond at all, the official line is that the Border Patrol agents got a fair trial.

But that's not true; they didn't get a fair trial. They were convicted because the Justice Department sent investigators into Mexico, tracked down the drug smuggler, and gave him immunity from all prosecution for his drug smuggling crimes if he would please come back and testify against Ramos and Compean.

It was massively unfair to give immunity to an illegal alien narcotics trafficker while destroying the lives and families of two Border Patrol agents who risked their lives to stop him. Ramos and Compean were convicted mainly on the testimony of the immunity-sheltered drug smuggler, whose integrity should have been called into question, but Ramos and Compean were forbidden to do that during the trial.

The prosecutor even tried to get Ramos and Compean convicted of attempted murder! The jury acquitted them of that outlandish charge, but the government still asked for a sentence of 20 years for the other counts on which they were convicted.

How did the prosecution go from an administrative violation for failing to report a firearm discharge, with the penalty of perhaps a 5-day suspension, to prosecution for intent to commit murder?

After the trial, two jurors gave sworn statements that they had been pressured to render a guilty verdict and did not understand that a hung jury was possible.

A major argument used by the prosecution during the trial was that our government has a policy forbidding agents from chasing suspected drug smugglers without first getting permission from supervisors. That sounds like a no-arrest policy; by the time an agent gets permission, a smuggler can be out of sight and safely back over the border.

There were a couple of factual discrepancies between the smuggler's story and the agents' testimony, but the government chose to believe the immunity-motivated repeat drug smuggler rather than Border Patrol agents with clean records. Ramos was nominated for Border Patrol Agent of the year in 2005, and Compean served honorably in the U.S. Navy before joining the Border Patrol.

The Bush Administration tidied up Aldrete's wound at a U.S. hospital at our expense and opened the way for him to sue the U.S. government for $5 million for violating his civil rights, which he is now doing.

This case exposes the misplaced priorities of the Bush Administration. The case also reminds us that our Border Patrol agents are in daily danger from hardened criminals.

The Department of Homeland Security issued this Officer Safety Alert on December 21, 2005: "Unidentified Mexican alien smugglers . . . have agreed that the best way to deal with U.S. Border Patrol agents is to hire a group of contract killers." The alert cautions that, to perform the killings, the smugglers intend to use the Mara Salvatrucha (MS-13) street gang, known for its unspeakable atrocities and torture.

T.J. Bonner, national Border Patrol Council, said: "There is a palpable sense of outrage and betrayal. Here, you have five convicted drug dealers being pardoned, and two border patrol agents, who were doing their job, fighting the war on drugs on the front lines, and they're going to prison."

This case is a test of George Bush's character, compassion, and concern for drugs coming across our border. He can't duck responsibility: the prosecutor, U.S. Attorney Johnny Sutton, and the judge, Kathleen Cardone, are both Bush appointees.


ww
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. So - why am I reading Phyllis Schlafly again? n/t
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oldtimecanuk Donating Member (601 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
2. Because what she said is absolutely true..... eom...
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illinoisprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
3. from the little I've heard this sounds like a stinko from the DOJ and up high.
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oldtimecanuk Donating Member (601 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Yep it is, and I am going to keep posting on this until someone...
pays attention to it..... This is the biggest POS injustice that I have seen in along while, and to date Democrats have been silent about it... That to me is just about as wrong as the vote by Repubs today with respect to esculation...... These two lives are in jeopardy all because they were doing their jobs... Yes they fucked up, by not reporting the incident but that is not worthy of 11 and 12 year jail terms.......

ww
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
18. So let's take your little beef to it's logical extreme
Edited on Sat Feb-17-07 09:37 PM by ProudDad
Let these guys off and you send the message that it's all right for border cops to be judge, jury and executioner.

That's the REAL bullshit concept.

Any cop who gets out of line should get the hammer!!!
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oldtimecanuk Donating Member (601 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. You seem to be ok with GWB giving immunity to (Geez forgot the number
of drug smugglers that he pardoned this last year) Well, I am not.... Drug salesmen, smugglers or the like should hang like Saddam Husein IMHO.... Fuck them....

ww
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HardWorkingDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
5. I don't know enough about this story, but it seems like something from both sides....
is being left out. What is being posted here and in an earlier thread really paints an incomplete picture.

One place though had it these two agents did not report this shooting and picked up their brass and destroyed it. The whole story seems kind of odd.

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HardWorkingDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. a little more information...
I know that wikipedia isn't the best source, but when you google this story, oddly, most of the results are from places like Worldnet and other hard right sites.

"sentenced to 11 years and one day in prison for shooting and wounding Osvaldo Aldrete-Davila. According to the attorney general's office, he and his partner fired fifteen shots at an unarmed man in broad daylight and failed to report it to anyone instead giving a false report and leaving their victim for dead after removing their shell casings from the scene of their crime."

One other site stated these two were offered plea deals of 18 months but declined.

More research is needed it seems.
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oldtimecanuk Donating Member (601 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Yes they did do that, and I agree they need to be punished for it..
however, once again... 11 and 12 year jail sentences is extreme.... Not worthy of the crime... the perp. was an illegal allien, and they ordered him/her to halt and that was ignored......

I have seen a similar thing happen on the Northern border; ie: BC/US the difference being that the person that the border guards was attempting to stop, was doing things legally correct, as in going thru customs... There were 3 border officers in attendance, all with guns drawn and ready to shoot if one false move was made.... I was very close to this with my window rolled down, and they made no bones about the fact that if this person so much as moved, he/she would be dead on the spot.... They ordered the person out of the car and face down ... no shots were fired, but very clearly could have been.

ww
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. The Sentencing Guidelines tied the judge's hands....
...for those charges and the conviction. The defendants were offered a very, very sweet plea bargain by the US Atty...and they refused it. A jury found them guilty ... and the judge had to do what he was mandated to do by the sentencing guidelines. He had just about -0- discretion on this.
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oldtimecanuk Donating Member (601 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Yep, and I sure would like to poll that Jury again to see what the evidence was...
that they saw thru their rose colored glasses...

ww
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Oh, so you admit you know nothing of the evidence!!!
Well, at least we know your excuse is ignorance of the facts!!!!
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oldtimecanuk Donating Member (601 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. I don't know if others have noticed, but you seem to be an awfully...
staunch supporter of an illegal drug smuggling allien, who is neither a citizen of the US or is even planning to become one. His only claim to fame is that he smuggles drugs for a living.. hmmmm Interesting indeed...

ww
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. Yes I am. What of it? Gonna send the RCMP after me?
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oldtimecanuk Donating Member (601 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Nope, but it just about tells me why we have been getting so much...
flack toward support for these two border guards....

ww
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #28
37. Who's "We"? You and shafleys other 2 readers?
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #13
30. What exactly would have polling the jury have accomplished?
I am a retired lawyer with a ton of years of practice under my belt and a ton of it in the area of criminal defense. I have NEVER seen polling the jury change one vote of any juror.

I have read about this case and IMO, the border guards were correctly convicted...and it is rare, VERY rare that I agree with any ASUA because I find most of them to be lying sacks of shit. However, reading on all the sites, for against, defense, the supporters, the US atty's site, etc., I find that the sites which support these two being pardoned are often at great variance with the facts of the case.

IMO, what cooked these two border guards are their own admissions at trial that they did NOT see any weapon in the hands of the person at whom they shot as well as they efforts to cover up the scene.

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oldtimecanuk Donating Member (601 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. Well I am a retired Computer Systems Specialist.... not sure what ...
all of this means, but... none the less I am happy to compare with you if ya like.....

ww
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. All that happens is that the jury sits in the jury box...
Edited on Sat Feb-17-07 10:54 PM by Hepburn
...and either by number (usually) or name (rarely), the clerk calls out the number/name and each juror puts his/her vote on the record by either saying guilty or non-guilty.

It rarely if ever adds one thing to the case. There is no evidence, no discussion of why they voted one way or the other.....just a roll call basically of the votes.
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oldtimecanuk Donating Member (601 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Yep, that's exactly correct as I understand it.... and I would still like to
see this done.... And then I would like to see the judge call the jury into private session and ask all of them if they had been coerced by anyone either during the trial or before the trial........

ww
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. And....
...exactly WHAT grounds would the judge have to do this?
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #7
22. Ah, so it's ok to kill folks
if they're "illegal aliens".

How quaint of you...


The "war on drugs" is Bullshit and should be immediately ended...
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oldtimecanuk Donating Member (601 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. Really? And your logic to that might be? So your saying if I understand
this correctly, just open the border and let the druggies have their way... selling anything and everything into the US! Interesting concept, for those that profit from it.... Not a good one, but interesting...

ww
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
8. some of the "lost details"...
http://www.elpasotimes.com/breakingnews/ci_5031310
(sorry, this story is now archived)

(If they are such brave defenders of the fatherland, why did they try to hide what they did? Why didn't they repot the incident?)

<snip>
Ramos and Compean were convicted by a jury of violating the civil rights of a drug smuggler they shot in the buttocks in 2005 near Fabens as the man was fleeing to Mexico. They were also convicted of tampering with evidence for not reporting the shooting and for picking up shell casings. The trial lasted more than two and a half weeks.
</snip>

(If they were shot at, why didn't they say so, instead of claiming they "saw" a gun?)

<snip>
Supporters of the agents say the government should not have offered the drug smuggler immunity in exchange for his testimony and should have believed the agents when they said they saw a gun in the drug smuggler's hands.
</snip>

(Apparently, U.S. attorneys are calling these guys LIARS!)

<snip>
The U.S. Attorney's office sent a release today meant to debunk myths they said are circulating around the case, such as "The agents were just doing their jobs."

"An agent is not permitted to shoot an unarmed suspect who is running away," the release says. "There was no credible evidence that the agents were in a life-threatening situation or that (the smuggler) had a weapon that would justify the use of deadly force. In fact, Border Patrol Agent (Oscar) Juárez, who was at the scene, testified at trial that he did not draw his pistol because he did not believe there was a threat. He also testified that Aldrete did not have a weapon and was almost to Mexico when Agent Compean began firing at him."

The U.S. Attorney's Office also addressed the criticism that the government let the drug smuggler go free.

"Because the agents could not identify him, found no fingerprints, could not tie him to the van (full of marijuana) and did not apprehend him after shooting him, the case against (the smuggler) could not be proven," the release said.
</snip>
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KingFlorez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
9. No, they shouldn't
They are being punished fairly for lying about shooting an unarmed person. The law must be followed by law enforcement.
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oldtimecanuk Donating Member (601 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Sorry, but that is Bullshit... The "JUSTIC DEPARTMENT LIED" No Supprise there....
Therefore Johnny Sutton was in on it and the absolute truth about the case never came out....

Never should have been a conviction in the first place.....

ww
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Why did their OWN PARTNER say there was NO THREAT???
Border Patrol Agent (Oscar) Juárez, who was at the scene, testified at trial that he did not draw his pistol because he did not believe there was a threat. He also testified that Aldrete did not have a weapon and was almost to Mexico when Agent Compean began firing at him.
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oldtimecanuk Donating Member (601 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Read the original post by Phyllis... It clearly states that their boss...
did not agree with what was happening in this case.....

As I stated, I am going to keep posting this story here until many more are aware of the injustice of this case... And lets not forget something here either, both of these border guards are of hispanic decent.... not there is certainly no racism on my part here by trying to say that illegal immigration or drug smuggling is a racist event...

ww
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. Why did their own partner say there was NO THREAT???
You didn't answer the question.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #16
29. So far you're striking out
I'll admit that the sentences are too long -- that's because of the f*ckin politicians sucking around for votes by screaming "tough on crime, tough on crime!". Well, boo-hoo, one of their own gets caught in their own trap...

I think the sentences are too long for EVERY so-called "criminal" conviction. I also think the prison system is a total hoax, it's designed to damage society NOT help society.

As for "drug smuggling" -- oh, so many levels -- IT WAS F*CKING POT!!!! Also, the drug war is a bogus hoax again designed to get votes (for repukes primarily but dems play the game too).

As for illegal aliens -- if the Mexican army had been a little better when the U.S. stole 1/2 of Mexico in '48, we'd be the "illegal aliens".

If their boss is in on the drug war, he's bogus too...
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KingFlorez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. It seems pretty clear
It's clear they shot someone who wasn't and then tried to cover it up, that's two crimes right there. No one lied but these agents.
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oldtimecanuk Donating Member (601 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Thats not correct, they thought he was armed and defened themselves...
They are human, and yes they covered it up and should be punished for that... But attempted murder, no... BS...

ww
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KingFlorez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. If they thought they were correct in their action, why did they try to cover it up?
They are being punished fairly, it's as simple as that.
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. Their PARTNER didn't think he was armed..didn't even draw his gun
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #17
33. Obviously you have not read the witness statements....
...or know about the testimony of the agents themselves. One, and I do not recall which one, testified that he could see the suspects hands and there was nothing in either hand. And...then he shot at him. Bad move.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
21. The "war on drugs" is totally BOGUS
I think we should fire everybody who's involved in it and DECRIMINALIZE!!!
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oldtimecanuk Donating Member (601 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. Really? Do you have the authority to fire the Administration... cause...
I know that I don't and so far neither do the Democrats in either Congress or the Senate.... cause that is probably where you would need to go since the Justice Department is a part of the Administration.

ww
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. End the phony "war on drugs"
While we're at it, end the phony "war on terror" too...

That's all I'm saying.

Although these two agents may have pulled the same shit even if they'd just been a couple of beat cops. It's done all the time...just very few of them get caught.
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oldtimecanuk Donating Member (601 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
34. I was pretty damn certain that before long we would get to the bottom of...
why so much opposition of my posting on this particular subject, and we certainly have indeed... Has noting to do about the guilt or innocence of these two border guards, but about the drug trade that is crossing the Southern border illegally and the profits that might be interrupted by this!

My honest opinion is that the same sort of thing is happening in Afghanistan by this Administration and its minions..... And they have sucked the UN into defending the drug trade that is being taken away from the Tali ban, (who by the way are obviously extremely unhappy about losing their profits) Once again, just MHO....

ww
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. Yeah, all us Libruls are cop hatin' alien luvin' junkies!
You shore didnt take long to peg us. No you didnt.
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oldtimecanuk Donating Member (601 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Sorry, no cigars for you cause you see I am a true Liberal... and...
if I could vote in the US I would certainly vote Liberal as I do in my home country... (Not Conservative) You see Stephan Harper is a Bush Wanna be..... But he is in charge of a Conservative minority Govt. that I believe is soon to fall. One thing that I am deeply pissed at my home country Liberals for though is; (Paul Martin, GWB, and Mexico's Foxe) having gotten together sometime ago and agreeing on a union of all 3 countries.... Without so much as any kind of approval from the citizens of any of the 3 countries... But, I am sure that Canada will not be present as we have a minority Govt. in
effect, and that is not likely to change anytime soon, no matter which party is elected.

ww

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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
36. Let them appeal then
No sympathy for them. If some drug smuggler had shot them in the ass, I'd be on your side.

Let them appeal like everyone else.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-17-07 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
42. Really, my honest take on this is
The primary cause and problem IS the phony "war on drugs".

De-criminalize drugs, the prices come WAY down, no market, no problem.

As for the sentences, I already said they sound way too severe as most sentences are in the good 'ole USA. And those "mandatory minimums" are the WORST. This country is soooo hung up on lock 'em up they make every problem worse. The idiots lock up 2 million people (about half on drug war related bullshit) and things pretty much stay the same and they want to lock up more...

However, I don't think that cops of any kind should have a license to try to kill any unarmed people -- "legal" or not -- and then cover it up...
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FredScuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
44. It's like I've always said...
if you ever want to win progressives over to your side, post some bleatings from a fascist old crone like Phyllis Schlafly

:puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke:
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