Once again our party is catering to the other side against our grassroots.

[madfloridian]

Hardcore Fox viewers in Nevada can very easily turn the dial to another station if they really want to hear Democrats. We do not have to cater to them. Now the MoveOn action is negated, Robert Greenwald's Fox Attack is negated...all because our Democrats have to pander to Fox Viewers. There are others groups as well, and I get mail from all of them.

I don't like Dean going along with this. I wonder though if now our party is becoming rather obligated to Murdoch. We know Hillary had a fundraiser with him, or was planning one. Who else did?

http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/2/23/111323/979

"The reason, according to an online letter MoveOn sent to 2 million of its members Thursday, is that "Fox is a mouthpiece for the Republican Party, not a legitimate news channel. The Democratic Party of Nevada should drop Fox as its partner for the presidential primary debate." Joining the chorus Thursday was liberal filmmaker Robert Greenwald, the director of the anti-Fox film, "Outfoxed," who released a video online of Fox's coverage of Democratic candidates.

But the Nevada party organizers -- and Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean -- said Thursday that while they may not think much of Fox's reporting, they want to reach out to viewers of the largest cable news network, one with double the number of prime-time viewers of CNN. And one whose believability is much higher with Republicans than Democrats, according to a 2005 study by the Project for Excellence in Journalism."

Here is Move On's Take on Fox action:
http://civ.moveon.org/foxdebate/

Here is Greenwald's Fox Attacks:
http://foxattacks.com:80/

There are other networks to use. Let them turn the dial if they care.

Here is more, and I disagree with Dean on this firmly.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/02/23/MNGD7O9UMP1.DTL&type=printable

"This is about talking to voters, not a network," Dean said Thursday. "While the Fox News Channel rarely has coverage that is fair and balanced, we believe that Fox viewers, who are potential voters, should have the opportunity to see a debate between our candidates. These forums provide an important unfiltered opportunity for potential voters to see Democrats without the bias of the network."

No, unfortunately it will not be an unfiltered view. Right after the 03 debates they switched to Bill Bennett to tear down the Democrats.

[wyldwolf]

1. have our Democrats said they'll cater their message to Fox viewers? No?

Then they're not catering to FOX viewers.

[madfloridian]

2. They appear not to be aware of the actions being taken by groups..

who are trying to do something about the power of Fox. It is like now all the Democrats are disconnected from what is going on in these groups.

They appear to only live in their world.

These are large movements. The Dem leaderss are thumbing their nose at them, and saying they will do it anyway.

It is appalling.

[wyldwolf]

3. *ahem*

They appear to only live in their world.

As does the "grassroots." Otherwise they'd know that FOX offered the sweetest deal with the most coverage. There's a reason MLB and the NFL is on FOX now.

[madfloridian]

5. In other words...Nevada Dems are getting a sweet deal...

money talks. The rest of us don't matter.

Watch the video.
http://foxattacks.com/

[DKRC]

10. Money Trumps Everything -- for some people

:evilfrown:

[wyldwolf]

11. ...and more coverage to get their message across.

[dionysus]

20. i can't believe it, but i agree totally with you on this one.

don't get used to it ;)

[ShortnFiery]

6. They are out of touch with the people of the USA. And we all will lose big. :( n/t

[madfloridian]

4. I think this Fox Attacks video is #2 in viewing at You Tube today.

http://foxattacks.com/

[madfloridian]

7. I am disappointed in Howard Dean about this.

I think he took a stand against two very large and important movements today. MoveOn and Brave New Films.

It makes me think he either getting absorbed into the DC culture or he is unaware. Since DFA is partnered with Brave New Films and Greenwald, I doubt he is unaware.

[T Wolf]

8. Got a begging call from the DNC last night and gave them an earful,

including on this topic.

What will it take for the party powers-that-be to start acting like Democrats instead of weak-assed political scum?

[madfloridian]

14. We donate monthly and gladly. But I reserve the right to criticize.

And I am not the only one upset today.

[Freddie Stubbs]

18. It isn't the DNC's decision to make

The Nevada Democratic Party is sponsoring this debate.

[madfloridian]

19. Dean has to take the party's side and go against two large grassroots projects.

He has to do it, but it is important that we let him know we don't approve of it.

They are once again trying to be all things to all people. These are large groups and should have a voice.

What's so funny is that the people who said we would go along with whatever Dean said....are the ones jumping on us when we speak up????

[Norquist Nemesis]

9. I agree w/Dean's 50 state strategy. Now for the BUT...

Dean's justification just doesn't stand up in this case. To say that because their viewership is double another's would only be the main issue IF the viewers were non-partisan in nature. In this case, Faux viewers are far from non-partisan.

It sounds to me like the salespeople at Faux gave the DNC a "here's the best bang for your buck". Now, I'm not the head of the DNC nor do I pretend to be, but IF I were to take that 'deal', I'd be writing some pretty stiff constraints on it and micromanaging the entire time to be aired--including the followup commentaries.

If people want to watch the debates, they'll tune it regardless of the station as long as they can have access to that station. Habitual viewership and ratings have absolutely no bearing on an event such as this will be.

[madfloridian]

12. I never defend him when he's wrong. He is wrong on this.

:hi:

I do support his plan for the 50 states, but it is like the issues of women's rights and gay rights....just like this.. sometimes we have to speak up and demand that our leaders do as well.

[DKRC]

13. Signed the petition nt

[madfloridian]

15. MoveOn: "Fox...one day of news coverage...smearing Democrats the other 364 days.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/02/23/MNGD7O9UMP1.DTL&type=printable

"MoveOn organizer Adam Green told The Chronicle in an e-mail: "Everybody supports reaching out to new people. Fox is giving Democrats one day of news coverages specifically to have legitimacy while smearing Democrats the other 364 days this year." Green noted that 75 percent of the 10,000 MoveOn members in Nevada said the party shouldn't be partnering with Fox.

Nevada Democratic Party spokeswoman Kirsten Searer sought to tamp down concerns about Fox's influence on the broadcast. Each major decision about the debate, Searer said, "from the background on the stage to the debate moderator, will be reached by mutual agreement of the state party, Western Majority Project (a coalition of western Democratic politicians) and Fox News.

"A 50-state strategy means talking to every American. The debate in August is not an endorsement of Fox. Instead, it is an effort to reach out to Fox viewers. We will not win elections if we don't win over new people."

NO, Kirsten, this is not about reaching out as much as it is allowing a network that does nothing but smear us one day of legitimacy.

[shance]

16. I don't think Governor Dean realizes he's playing straight into their hands.

Continuing to allow Fox any legitimacy, continues to allow them to create an illusion OF legitimacy.

When in fact, the network, along with some others, continues to promote division, racism, misogynism and exclusion.

Why give that any more power than it already has?

[madfloridian]

17. I would LIKE to think he's unaware of the MoveOn and Greenwald projects.

But I don't think so. I guess he has to get the party's back on this.

This is one reason many of us wished he had stayed with DFA. We figured this would happen. He can't speak out now as he said because it might hurt the plans of the congressional leaders. That means he's silenced.

[dionysus]

21. i think Howard is right

the message needs to get out to as many peopel ass possible. Any repukes watching the Dems on faux switch over or get too disgusted with the GOP to vote, the better. This is that same thing as the "need to reach out to nascar people with pickup trucks and gun racks" statement. How could it hurt us?

[madfloridian]

22. It is his job to do it.

I don't think it is right for him to come out openly against two very large grassroots movements, MoveOn and Greenwald.

I agree he must do it to reach people, that it is job.

[KoKo]

23. I signed the MoveOn Petition. Is the effort dead? I wondered why

I got so little response when I posted two alerts for petitions from different sites on this, and got few replies even after kicking both of them. :shrug:

[madfloridian]

24. I guess it is now.

We just signed the petitions today. But with Dean's statement, and the NV state chair's post at Kos....it sounds like it is a done deal, signed and sealed.

I don't think the party leaders even know we were doing it. They know now, but it's done anyway apparently.

[KoKo]

34. MoveOn's Petition Site is still up. I think if folks keep signing it sends a message.

http://civic.moveon.org/foxdebate/?referring_id=-6787973-jp1h2e&taf=1

[MonkeyFunk]

25. This is silly

The way to win over Fox viewers is to talk to them, show them what we have - not avoid them completely. Totally ignoring a large segment of the population is not good for the party, and it's not good for America.

Dean did the same thing 4 years ago when he talked about appealing to people with confederate flags on their trucks. He understands that we can't simply write them off - we have to win them over.

[madfloridian]

28. Good luck on that.

Did he have to do it in public? Pull the rug out from under these groups?

[MonkeyFunk]

29. well

how could he NOT do it in public? It's a public event, and he wants to promote it. If people opposed it, yeah, it was gonna become public that he disagreed.

I also don't think it's fair to assign one and only one position to "the grassroots". The grassroots are pretty diverse, and there's no single overriding ideology.

[madfloridian]

30. Never mind.

If you think that's what I do, then what can I say. I write about diverse things, but not going to argue. I hope MoveOn and Greenwald keep fighting this.

It's amazing what I learn about myself here.

[MonkeyFunk]

31. How on earth can you be offended by what I said?

You presented YOUR side as the side of the "grassroots".

I merely pointed out that there are people who consider themselves part of the grassroots who disagree with you on this issue.

[madfloridian]

32. I sounded offended?

So sorry. I wasn't. Just stating what I thought.

I think it's great our party is reaching out and reaching across the aisle and being nice. I guess.

Everyone here today is jumping on stuff. No, I was not offended.

:shrug:

[Capn Sunshine]

35. Isn't that an overstatement?

Dean disagrees with the POV of Greenwald and MoveOn regarding how to reach NV viewership.

He's hardly withdrawing his candid support of both these worthy causes.
I don't know if I agree, because I'm not dealing in NV but Howard has his head screwed on pretty straight, and he's never adopted a stand that isn't honest.

"This is about talking to voters, not a network," Dean said Thursday. "While the Fox News Channel rarely has coverage that is fair and balanced, we believe that Fox viewers, who are potential voters, should have the opportunity to see a debate between our candidates. These forums provide an important unfiltered opportunity for potential voters to see Democrats without the bias of the network"

Sure, they will throw a rightwing pundit on afterwards, but you all act as if there's some kind of hypnosis happening. We have always said getting the message out there LIVE will allow folks to arrive at their own decisions. The kool aid has worn off, you guys. Relax a bit.

[madfloridian]

36. How odd, Capn.

After all of it, you are telling me not to be critical of Howard Dean.

It is sort of a sad funny, really. Those were the times.

:-)

[JeffR]

26. History is made!!!!!!!!

for the first time ever, I find myself agreeing with wyldwolf and disagreeing with you.

If this gets even 10 likely voters rethinking their positions, it's worth it.

[madfloridian]

27. I am thinking of the two groups and the impact this will have.

I have no gripe with reaching out, that is not the main issue for me. MoveOn and Robert Greenwald, who has done some marvelous films for us....just got spanked by Governor Dean.

He had to stand with the party, but did he have to do it so publicly?

I have no objection to Democrats going on Fox. I never have. I am thinking they just pulled the rug out from under the two groups for the moment.

I don't worry when people disagree with me. I just wanted you to see how I felt...just who stood up against the activists groups. They will continue to do it. That is what many worry about.

I just posted an article by Joe Conason in GD...like to heck with the new bi-partisanship.

[shance]

33. I guess more white male racism and supremecy rules.

As long as they cheat and bend the rules, oh and own all the media networks.

Kind of like the 2000 and 2004 elections.

It certainly helps to have white racists in powerful positions.

[madfloridian]

37. Just for interest...remember the 2003 debate by Fox..disrupted by Larouche folks?

And they were allowed to go on yelling and attacking? Finally Al Sharpton told them off, someone asked where's Larouche...Dean said maybe in jail and everyone laughed?

I actually felt sorry for Lieberman, they were giving him the worst time.

Fox should have stopped the yelling out and removed them quickly.

[EST]

38. For thousands of years, in various languages and phrased

appropriately, people have tried to teach their kids right from wrong and give them some sort of moral framework to deal with the world. One of those valuable admonitions has come to be known as, "You're known by the company you keep," and "Birds of a feather flock together."

This outrage will not turn out o k. We knew, before crazy george ever went into Iraq, that the invasion and occupation was a piss poor idea. We knew that allowing the slime eaters to run the US and a substantial portion of the world was a bad idea.
We know that getting down an your hands and knees and barking back at your neighbors unmuzzled, vicious dog is a REALLY bad idea.

This is a really, really bad idea!

At very least, this will not somehow establish lines of communication with moderate republicans; it will legitimize POX Noise and degrade the democratic party.

We did not, or at least, I did not join the democrats simply because I was desperate to join some political organization. We have been engaged in an ongoing effort to do what they said could never be done-to actually transform this party into the real ethical standard, to bring real morals and ethics into public discourse and government at all levels.

I feel betrayed, kind of like finding out, after many years of like minded opposition to evil and greed, that my sister has been having an affair with george bush.

I have underscored and defended Governor Dean and his stance on most issues, but this is beyond the pale.
Do I have to have my nose rubbed in it to finally get it clearly that there is no damned difference between democrats and republicans and their basic worldviews?

POX is nothing more than a lying, hateful propaganda organization belonging to the most vile criminals in the world and I will have no part in it.

Not just politically wrong, but strategically wrong, ethically wrong, morally wrong. Putrid.

[madfloridian]

39. I see Kos is outraged tonight. About this and about Harry Reid.

I agree with him on both. Though I often differ.

About the debate:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/3/2/205114/2524

About Harry Reid's decision to let Lieberman do the radio address tomorrow.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/3/2/204552/8547

And I am reminded of Patrick Murphy on Countdown saying the House will send more troops and money to Iraq.

I feel very outraged this week.

The party is making moves that they are not going to include progressives. They will lose in 08 if they do that. No more of the you are a traitor if you don't vote Democrat stuff. They got elected to stand up and be counted, and they are acting like Republicans matter more than we do.