David Sirota: On Dave Obey, "Idiot Liberals" and Ending the War

[Sparkly]

I'm going to say a few things here that some of my readers aren't going to like - some things that I've been pondering as I am writing my new book. But it's important at times to look at ourselves and our movement critically if we are to continue advancing. Here's the deal folks: There are some "idiot liberals" out there, and this episode actually highlights that reality.

(snip)

The real news out of Obey's outburst is that, as the Associated Press confirms, he really doesn't have the votes in the Democratic caucus to cut off funding for the war, and that he courageously broke traditional etiquette by implicitly calling out the faction of pro-war Democrats who are standing in the way of stronger action on the war. These are the obstacles that the progressive movement should be focusing on pressuring. Obey's frustration clearly comes from his perception (whether right or wrong) that he, an antiwar stalwart from a "tough district" is being unduly harassed at the very time he needs the progressive movement to help him whip votes out of other Democrats who are the real problem. And his frustration is grounded in reality - fairly often, progressive activists, and the Netroots in particular, give passes to conservative Democrats because they come from the same kinds of "tough districts" Obey comes from.

I'm in no way excusing Obey's behavior that was caught on film. He didn't take time to communicate properly, he got way too angry way too fast and his frustration translated into him mistreating the people who were asking him questions. That is unacceptable, and I'm happy he apologized. He needed to.

However, the troubling thing out of the spat is not Obey's behavior: it is the reaction to it by the progressive movement, and what that reaction really says. The idea that Jack Murtha - the guy who voted for the war, the guy who was one of the most outspoken pro-war Democrats, the guy who has never seen a defense bill he didn't try to increase - is now an antiwar saint beyond reproach, but Dave Obey is some sort of pro-war villain is so fundamentally absurd it suggests that at least some who liken themselves as progressive movement leaders really are "idiot liberals" because they have positively no idea how the hell basic movement building or power works (mind you - I'm not saying Jack Murtha hasn't been courageous in opposing the war of late- he has, which is why I thought he should have been Majority Leader - but the point is that the basic understanding of "allies" and "enemies" can be wholly misunderstood).

If those working in professional movement politics really want to end the war - and not just be in a perpetual state of unproductive contrarian outrage - they can start by remembering the need to target pressure and the need to apply both the carrot and the stick. Shoving a stick up the rear end of an ally is the behavior of "idiots" - whether liberal or otherwise - because it only puts our goal farther out of reach.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/huffpost/20070310/cm_huffpost/043105

Thoughts? Opinions? Agree, disagree?

[MADem]

1. Good article. Agree. We don't have the votes. Obey is and always has been a REAL liberal.

And the paragraph that points out the contrast with Jack Murtha, whose legislative history I have pointed out here (and been excoriated for my trouble) hits the nail on the head. And there's no better 'nail on the head' comments than these:

....the antiwar movement fundamentally does not understand the very power structure it is trying to influence ...

....Shoving a stick up the rear end of an ally is the behavior of "idiots" - whether liberal or otherwise - because it only puts our goal farther out of reach.

[wyldwolf]

2. heh! Sirota gets something right

a perpetual state of unproductive contrarian outrage

Perfect description.

[AtomicKitten]

4. "a perpetual state of unproductive contrarian outrage"

.... that is often viral and not fact-based, and lends further credence to the notion people should think for themselves and not take their cues from blogs which are other people's opinions.

[wyldwolf]

5. exactly - I've called it "The cult of perpetual outrage" - you see it on the right and the left

usually some figure or organization of importance (FOX News, MoveOn) decides when the shit should be stirred.

[madfloridian]

13. I am a member of the cult of perpetual outrage. Why do you hate MoveOn so much?

I have had constant outrage since we were taken to war in 2003 with few dissenting.

[wyldwolf]

14. ...oh, for the same reasons I hate their Republican counterparts

They think political battles are won by whoever screams the loudest.

[madfloridian]

15. We all know political battles are won by big money.

.

[wyldwolf]

16. ..maybe I should amend my last reply to say "... they think in simplistic absolutes"

[madfloridian]

18. See, the terms like "simplistic" "idiot liberals",...are used with joy

here and that is what the DLC advocates have done to our party.

Making fun of people is their stock and trade and the tactic of their representatives here at DU.

[wyldwolf]

21. Quick correction

It was the left who first threw invectives at moderates. Just ask Jesse Jackson. And the "progressives" at DU, KOS, etc., have carried on the tradition.

[madfloridian]

24. The moderates put us down and took our nation to war.

On lies. The leaders of the "moderates", the Clintons, knew they were lies. They ignored us and bombed with shock and awe anyway.

I much prefer being me. I don't have to carry the guilt of having killed all those people. I don't have blood on my hands.

[wyldwolf]

26. why are you changing the subject?

The Iraq war is becoming to the left what Bill Clinton is to the right. Both arguments are used to change the subject.

[AtomicKitten]

27. It's the Clenis' fault.

Which gives further credence to your point that MoveOn generic types (on edit, more accurately far left bloggers whose every utterance some folks here consider gospel truth) and Faux News generic types throw out the same red meat to invoke outrage and rally their audience.

People need to learn to think for themselves.

[madfloridian]

31. David Sirota: On Dave Obey, "Idiot Liberals" and Ending the War

That's the subject, and that is what I was writing about. It was not the idiot liberals who took us into this quagmire, but it is not hard for the ones who knew better to put us down.

Some do it all the time. Some enjoy baiting. Some just enjoy being outrageous.

That's sad while our soldiers are dying for lies.

[wyldwolf]

32. Madfloridian: "Making fun of people..."

THAT is the subject YOU and I were discussing,

[madfloridian]

34. Our soldiers and Iraqis are still dying while you parse words.

I've watched you at work here, and no answer is ever right, ever on topic.

And while you play these games, and while the Democratic leadership considers anti-war folks a hindrance....the numbers of the dead and injured are growing.

[wyldwolf]

35. I can have a conversation without Iraq being involved.

Apparently when you run out of options you fall back on Bill's penis - uh, I mean, the Iraq war.

[madfloridian]

38. That is very tasteless.

You show your true colors when you say things like that.

[wyldwolf]

40. Are you even capable of staying on topic??? Discussing with you is like a twisty turny maze

So, honey, what do you want for dinner?
Iraq!

Uh... read any good books?

Iraq!

How would you feel about a trip to Montana?

IRAQ!

Can't you carry on a conversation without referencing Iraq?

IRAQ! You're Parsing words! How dare you! Blood! Blood! Iraq!!!

[madfloridian]

41. No, I am not capable.

You guys have just about used all your words up lately. Yesterday I was called a traitor...then I was called stupid...today simplistic.

And no one cares when this goes on. No one here stands up for others. A traitor? Stupid? Simplistic? All at a Dem forum.

Amazing.

And the name callers are always the winners, because the others just give up in disgust.

[wyldwolf]

42. IRAQnopobia: A condition where one believes everything is either related to the Iraq war or...

...he/she turns everything into some sort of Iraq war-related diatribe to avoid discussing anything else.

[enough already]

36. It is not the "idiot liberals" with blood on their hands.

It's the DLC types who voted for this abortion and now want us to shut up.

[zulchzulu]

17. Don't put Faux Snooze and MoveOn in the same sentence...

There is absolutely no comparison to what MoveOn does compared to Faux Snooze.

I don't agree on everything MoveOn does, but they certainly are more legit and have more cred than Murdoch's Monster Machine will ever have.

[wyldwolf]

20. too late - they're identical in that they throw red meat to their flock

[zulchzulu]

22. You're not to be taken seriously if you think MoveOn and FoxNews are the same

There is no comparison... I'd bet you aren't familiar with MoveOn and just are picking up the trash you found somewhere online.

[wyldwolf]

23. perhaps not by you, but your reply is an example of the "simplistic absolutes" mentioned in post 16

There is no comparison

Certainly there is. They both possess the little red button that calls their followers to action. Not the same actions. Opposite sides of the issues. But still they toss the red meat and decide when their followers should become outraged.

I'd bet you aren't familiar with MoveOn and just are picking up the trash you found somewhere online.

On the contrary. Been familiar with them since 1998 when they were a bipartisan group.

[zulchzulu]

29. Your assessment is purely wrong on so many levels

Moveon.org is a 501c non-profit Net-based campaign organization that gets people involved in progressive issues. Their site says:

"The MoveOn family of organizations brings real Americans back into the political process. With over 3.3 million members across America – from carpenters to stay-at-home moms to business leaders – we work together to realize the progressive promise of our country. MoveOn is a service – a way for busy but concerned citizens to find their political voice in a system dominated by big money and big media."

Turn the page to Rupert Murdoch and Fox News. Look at their own brand of "journalism", their strategies, their blind allegience to the right wing and their millions of dollars to make it all happen on a global scale with multiple media delivery output 24/7/365.

The only similarity is that both are politically motivated. That's where the similarities end.

[wyldwolf]

33. I'm correct on all the levels you mention.

Moveon.org is a 501c non-profit Net-based campaign organization that gets people involved in progressive issues... Turn the page to Rupert Murdoch and Fox News. Look at their own brand of "journalism", their strategies, their blind allegience to the right wing and their millions of dollars to make it all happen on a global scale with multiple media delivery output 24/7/365.

You don't think FOX News is an organization that gets people involved in conservative issues? You don't think MoveOn has a blind allegiance to the left wing and has millions of dollars to try and make it all happen?

Two sides of the same coin. One is cable TV based, the other internet based, both providers of red meat to their rabid followers.

[oasis]

3. "Top 10 Liberal Idiots". Easy enough to fill that bill.(eom)

[madfloridian]

6. Unfortunately, now it will be far too easy to refer all all of us who oppose occupation...

as liberal idiots.

When someone uses that term in the third person mode, it is quite painful. I am afraid that most of our politicians look upon most of us in the activist world that way.

They don't seem to understand there are differences even among "liberal idiots." Vast differences.

If only they had read the full NIE on WMDs in 2002.

In October 2002 Bob Graham begged fellow senators to read the "entire" NIE on WMDs.

Congress and Bush took up to war on lies, and they should be very careful how they refer to us. Even the good guys.

[AtomicKitten]

9. "liberal idiot" was referring to those that demand results

.... with no clue as to the legislative process.

Don't twist his words to use as a bullet point for propaganda.

[Evergreen Emerald]

25. Then he should have said that, instead of insulting "liberal"

[AtomicKitten]

28. Obey's words --- take it up with him

His condemnation was regarding those demanding results that don't understand the legislative process, not a blanket condemnation of those anti-war as alleged.

[madfloridian]

7. It wasn't "idiot liberals" who got us into this quagmire.

But now it is going to be a much used term. I respect what a great guy Obey is, but using the term shows that even the good guys think of the anti-war that way.

They are falling for the right wing spin.

[w4rma]

10. The "idiot liberals" aren't going to help get us out, either. (nt)

[madfloridian]

11. This idiot liberal can't do anything about it anyway.

I am just a stupid old liberal idiot activist...hell, I even got called a traitor here yesterday.

It is a term that should not be used.

[w4rma]

12. I'd rather not see the termed used either.

But, if I'm going to use it or see it used I'm going to use it correctly.

[zulchzulu]

30. Well, gee...what did the pro-war right wing call "liberals" before?

I won't cite examples of what they call "liberals"... if "idiot" is the new term, that's pretty bland.

[LoZoccolo]

39. And it isn't idiot liberals who will get us out. That is why they are idiots. n/t

[madfloridian]

47. See another person calls liberals idiots.

Open the door to it, and everyone does it.

[LoZoccolo]

48. I did not call liberals idiots, when will you stop taking opportunity to twist peoples' words?

I'm not the only person who notices that you do this from what I've read.

[katsy]

8. This one statement:

"If those working in professional movement politics really want to end the war - and not just be in a perpetual state of unproductive contrarian outrage - they can start by remembering the need to target pressure and the need to apply both the carrot and the stick. Shoving a stick up the rear end of an ally is the behavior of "idiots" - whether liberal or otherwise - because it only puts our goal farther out of reach."

Brings to my mind one other raging liberal that cuts off his nose to spite his face: Ralph Nader.

I respect his views. He is spot on when it comes to issues of corporate whores... but he attacks the wrong people. I admire him really admire his views, but this scorched earth type of political activism is not going to achieve the desired result. Don't get me wrong... I wish it would. I wish Tina had gotten her wish and the war would be over. NOW. I wish Ralph had his way and corporations would shrink to nothing but the legal contructs they are and have no power in government.

Just saying... turn the cameras on the warmongers.

Obey deserves a thrashing for his insulting comment. But it never should have come to this. Tina should have accepted his invitation to speak in his office and the cameras turned off. If she was not satisfied at that point, then take the battle to the next level.

[tandot]

19. Great article. Totally agree.

We have to focus our energy on politicians who are not on our side (yet).

[ewagner]

37. I've been on the road all day

and just got up to speed on Sirota's post....

Let's get full disclosure going here:

I live in Obey's district, and,

I've had recent experience on the local level with the liberal wing of the liberal wing of the party.

I think it's true that Dave Obey has a volitile temper...but it's also true that taunting him with demands he cannot possibly meet is just plain stupid.....

The "liberal liberals" I recently had experience with did the same of our local government....they could not understand why local government would not bow to their demands......in a sense, they did more damage than good to our cause....

And just for the record, let's talk about what our "cause" really is...it is to stop the killing in Iraq ...it is to bring a just peace to the Middle East....

Let's be constructive in meeting those goals...

[htuttle]

43. It's a frustration issue

I think you can divide the two camps with the following question: "If we had to shut down the entire US government, top to bottom -- including no mail, no social security checks, nothing -- in order to stop the war in Iraq, should we?"

I think the people against the war who got in Obey's face would say yes. I think many others against the war would say no.

Rationally, I'd answer no. But some days, I'm frustrated enough that I'd answer yes.

[rep the dems]

44. Damn. Somebody appears to be in a heated argument up there. nt

[madfloridian]

46. It's ok, it happens here frequently.

.

[madfloridian]

45. I made a point that this opened the door for more name-calling...

for more people to call more of us names....just because they can now. They have the power to call names.

And I was right.

I don't really blame David Obey or the woman, and I can imagine all the folks in congress are frustrated. So are the parents who lost loved ones.

So I don't hold anger. I do have much anger at those in our party who really do think of any of us who oppose the war as not very bright.

That is what this did. It opened the floodgates for those who look down on most of us to call names.

And one more thing....once you call someone an idiot it is hard to say you don't mean it esp. when it is used with the word liberal.

Once you call someone a traitor, as I was called here yesterday. Or simplistic, or other names called here in this thread...it is hard for those people to pretend they don't mean it.

It makes me more determined to make my voice heard in the most intelligent way I can.

Once words like that slip out, they are out. I fear most of congress looks on activists that way. And most of them blame Howard Dean for starting it. And he has become a good player, so they should not feel that way.

Things are going to get complicated, but all the idiots and all the liberals are seeing our country bogged down with all the deaths....and it is not going to stop us to be called names.

[Larry Allen]

49. I may be an Idiot Liberal, but we haven't had any votes on the war yet

And as long as these "votes" are taken in the back rooms of congress, we may never have enough. We need floor votes. We need to get our representatives on the record.

The reason for this is that opposition to the war is coming from the American people, not congress. The democrats who now control the House were put there by and large by democratic voters dissastisfied with the war. Roughly 12% of democratic voters still think this war was a good idea.

If we had had a floor vote on H.R. 508 as soon as it came out, it would probably have been defeated, but every democrat who voted against it would be in trouble with his/her constituency and would be itching for another opportunity to get on the right side of the issue.

Instead we have a proposal that seems to concede 11 months of delay to the Bush administration in addition to the 4 months that have passed already since the election. (translation: 1000 more dead GI's). We have gobbledegook. "Redeployment", whatever that means. "Progress certification" by this date or that date. Even that degree of obfuscation is apparently insufficient and they are now passing out pork for peace.

We have democrats fearful of the corporate media, wincing at the prospect of an actual war vote, although we should have had several by now, and doing their best to represent their corporate doners.

At their backs, 58% of the American people and a similar percentage of top military brass. 70 some odd percent of democratic voters and a similar percentage of ordinary GI's. 95% of Iraqis and a similar percentage of the international community. Plus a looming disaster in the field that everyone would like to avoid.

They face the thoroughly discredited neocons, a vile media that seems to have lossed its grip on public opinion a year and a half ago, and an incomprehensible war on "terror" policy where victory = continuing the occupation indefinitely (or at least until the oil is gone).

At their side, of course, is the pro-war corporate money machine, the only ones allowed into the the back rooms of the sausage factory.

I smell a looming political disaster at the hands of our current leadership. They will inherit a war that everyone despises, an economy that can't survive without it, and an oval office with a police state to protect it.