Pardon my shor term memory, but I need to ask..

[fencesitter]

What is it that makes Reagan the greatest conservative president in history? I know I'm a political neophyte and this has been asked here before, but Why? The Soviet Union would have implodedf by itself, he just happened to be in the right place at the right time. He didn't do anything for me that I know of like cut my taxes or increase my education or business profits. He spoke kinda folksy at times, but GW does that too. He liberated a little island somewhere, okay, I'll give him that. He did something to the treasury that forced Bush the First to raise taxes against his promises. I give up, why does every republican invoke his name reverently and want to put his picture on our currency?

[LBJDemocrat]

1. Simple

He changed the political discourse in Washington. Just as FDR set a discourse about the common good served by government, Reagan set a discourse where "government is the problem" (except in defense and law enforcement). Now both parties cater to "economic growth" represented by the Dow Jones Industrial Average rather than to the common good.

Now both parties operate under that discourse. Clinton was an example.

[fencesitter]

4. thereby creating a greater gap betweeen rich and poor..

soaring national debt and big budget deficits. But, yes you're right.

[LBJDemocrat]

2. None of the previous post-WW2 Republicans did that

Not Eisenhower. He wanted to cut some funding to certain programs, but on the whole, he was a liberal by today's standards. He wrote to his brother, "Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes you can do these things. Among them are H. L. Hunt (you possibly know his background), a few other Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or business man from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."

Not Nixon. His rhetoric was right-wing in many ways, but he regulated much of the economy, created the EPA, and cut down on defense spending when the war began to wind down. In many ways, he was the last liberal president because Ford set the ball a-rolling for deregulation and Carter continued the trend. Then Reagan smashed everything to pieces, convincing the public that corporations are more responsible than government.

[glarius]

3. I only observed him from afar, but he seemed to me that what he was most

notable for was his likability. I hear Republicans declaring that he ended the communist reign in Russia, but as I remember it, Gorbechev was more responsible for that. Gorbechev made a great impression on Margaret Thatcher, who declared him "someone we can do business with." I also recall that Gorby came to Canada and toured our country, studying how things were done in a democratic country. I agree with you that Reagan "just happened to be in the right place at the right time" when the U.S.S.R. was ready to give up on communism. I believe the Republicans have created this myth of Reagan as the great leader who ended the cold war and it is accepted as gospel by much of the public. Frankly, I can't think of anything he did to benefit your country, or the world, for that matter. :hi:

[fencesitter]

5. Exactly!

That's all I can figure out too. The myth, and the fact everybody liked him.

[pansypoo53219]

6. i never liked him.

but nothing compares to how i despise georgie.

[glarius]

7. I agree.......Reagan at least did not do any real harm, that I'm aware of.

Georgie...now that's a different story. This creature is responsible for the whole world being in turmoil....not to mention many thousands of deaths. Every time I see his smirking face on TV I almost want to throw something at the TV!

[some guy]

8. er...

if you don't count the dead and disappeared by the Contras in Nicaragua; dismiss the dead in Iraq and Iran (and providing Saddam Hussein's regime with chemical and biological weapons, which eventually provided the impetus for the current disaster in Iraq), overlook the continued assistance to the Mujahideen(sp?) in Afghanistan (from which grew both Al-Qaeda and the Taliban), and don't count signaling to business that it was okay to destroy union labor in the US - yeah, he didn't do any real harm.

:hi:

[Auntie Bush]

18. "Reagan at least did not do any real harm." Yes he did.

He ran up the deficit!
He caused a recession about 1986.
He increased the gap between rich and poor.
He created the "trickle down method".
Remember Iran Contra?
He lied under oath.
And the worst thing he ever did...He picked GHWB to be VP! (If he hadn't done that...the little asshole in office today would still be a drunken idiot and maybe fallen down an oil well.

[glarius]

20. I stand corrected...by you and someguy.....I guess I was mainly

thinking of the thousands of deaths that can be attributed to Bush's presidency as being the main criteria to measure by. I of course realize Reagan was a disaster too. :hi:

[calimary]

21. Mikhail Gorbachev never gets the credit he deserves. All the posing

and bombast and whatever reagan or thatcher or any of the others spewed, it wouldn't have amounted to squat were there not a thaw kindled on the inside. Gorby did that.

Thom Hartmann was talking about that on the air the other day, after that embarrassing circle-jerk at the reagan library. reagan did more to overturn what we'd become as a nation - that belief system and programs and government support that FDR launched - in which government helped America get back on its feet after the stock market crash and the Great Depression. I think there is a belief also that once more people did get back on their feet, perhaps they started feeling a little more comfy about things, and may not have been as eager to share anymore. reagan really encouraged the whole "IGMFU" philosophy that, I think, underlies its blather about how the best government is smaller government, "getting government off your back" - a reagan buzzphrase, if the government runs it it's gonna be incompetent, better let the private sector handle it. "IGMFU" was a reference my father made fairly frequently, regarding the conservative mind-set: an acronym for "I Got Mine, F-U." It may be what motivates this nation of immigrants, by now, to start telling present and future immigrants to get lost. Once there is more prosperity generated by all those jobs and new businesses and greater tax base that was seeded by FDR's New Deal, it's hypothecized that we start to go "soft" as a nation because of what that prosperity can provide. And as such, we become far less willing to pitch in so others can benefit. That, it seems to me, motivates the whole anti-tax movement. reagan started making that stingey "IGMFU" attitude acceptable with his folksy, plain-spoken, benign, aw-shucks, Great Communicator schtick. He put a human face on it. And millions of Americans fell for it.

The Soviet Union imploded on itself. It had bankrupted its economy building up its military, and everything else got hind-tit. Meanwhile the so-called satellite countries from Poland to then-Czechoslovakia and Roumania and Hungary and all the rest broke away and self-actualized as independent states. So there went more economic support to Mother Russia. Gorby recognized this and hoped to do a make-over on his country and reach out to the nations on the other side of the Cold War. He wanted an economy, too. The three who preceded him were musty old men, Brezhnev, Chernyenko, Andropov, who were all part of the old Soviet order. Gorby wanted to open the windows and let the fresh air in. "Glasnost" was his buzzword, signifying the breaking of barriers. reagan just worked it for the photo ops because, as already pointed out upthread, he WAS in the right place at the right time.

One other "thanks but no thanks" thing reagan brought us: the "humanization" of extremist evangelicals, who went mainstream. The Office of Faith-based Initiatives and all that other stuff, and organized religion meddling overtly and covertly all over the political map got its start with reagan. As did the partisan machinery that newt gingrich and fiends brought into the mainstream and with which they made quite a bit of hay. As did turning Teddy Roosevelt's Republican "brust-buster" juggernaut on its ear, which led to corporate monopolies of entire industries, broadcasting deregulation, industrial consolidations, mergers and acquisitions, all those things that wound up making the rich guy richer and the poor guy poorer - and squeezing the middle class. Under reagan, it became okay to stand up to, and screw unions. He was the first big union buster of the new era, because it was he who fired the air traffic controllers, early-on, when they were striking on reasonable grievances like overstress, over-work, and insufficient compensation.

And a lot of the fiends WE have to contend with now are the fruit of seeds planted during reagan's years. bush-I got a jump start. And you know where that led.

Yeah, we have a LOT for which we can say thanks to reagan. Thanks a LOT, ronnie. You launched a world of hurt.

[MissWaverly]

9. Iran Hostages released, day he became president

Americans credited this to him.

[lyonn]

11. It appears the Reaganites made a deal long before Carter

stepped down that got the hostages released. They undercut Carter's attempts to get them released, guess Carter didn't offer them military hardware. Then the Reaganites made illegal gun deals with Iran. Swell group. Smile at you while they are sticking the knife in.

Having voted for Reagan at that time it was obvious that a deal was made with the repubs to get the hostages released but had no clue what the deal was.?

[MissWaverly]

16. I think it was the start of the age of deception

which continues to this very day, politics put before the welfare of the country

[Canuckistanian]

22. It still puzzles me how they were able to do that

Was Carter that ignorant? Didn't he or any of his subordinates even have a clue what was going down?

How the Hell did so many neo-cons-in-training manage to pull this off?

[Solon]

23. All I know is that George H. W. Bush and RR violated federal law when they did that...

No private citizen, and that's what they both were while campaigning, may make any deals on behalf of the U.S. government, nor make any promises in that capacity. You must be employed at the State Department or be an official empowered by the government to have those types of powers.

[whistle]

13. Once again, the Ronald Reagan October surprise for which a book

...was published:

<snip>
October Surprise: America's Hostages in Iran and the Election of Ronald Reagan (Hardcover)
by Gary Sick (Author)
(13 customer reviews)


<reviews>
October Surprise: America's Hostages in Iran and the Election of Ronald Reagan, May 20, 2007
By D. H. Meyers "D.H. Meyers" (Sapphire, NC) - See all my reviews


An intriguing look at teachery and treason by the Republican Party. I have never understood the interest that Republicans have in running for elected office; they have little or no knowledge or understanding about how a modern government should work and less interest in the subject. Their dependence upon misogyny, free ranging corporations, inflated dollars, social slavery, outright corruption and pagan material idolatry stymies me. They would regulate the poor and warehouse the rich in gated communities and are loathe to remember that both heaven and hell are gated communities. Never has there been a political party with such base intentions and such great appeal among the nouveau riche.

This story is probably true but now unindictable like the crimes of 9-11; it typifies the arrogance and modus operandi of the GOP. To have negotiated and extended the hostages' captivity in Tehran for any reason whatsoever is the height of immorality and inhumanity but standard political expedience for jumpy political losers like the GOP. They are cut from the same cloth as the kidnappers themselves and thus their nascent ability to negotiate with them. But this is the same party that two decades later suspended our civil liberties, tortured prisoners and took us to war for no credible reason. At this point (2007) if you are catching up on your political research, this book is a great sequel to anything written about Watergate or Richard NIxon's plumbers and an ominous prophecy to the political horrors that follow.

<snip>
A shocking work that should be read by lovers of democracy, November 8, 2001
Reviewer: A reader

The wealth of information from well-documented sources revealed in this book is overwhelming, and I believe that I would do great injustice to its potential impact if I were to summarize it here. Having just finished the book moments ago, I feel compelled to implore that all those who truly believe in democracy and responsible government read it as well. It will open your eyes to the way things really are, or at least make you question many of the assumed truths regarding our recent history.

What makes the author's allegations even more convincing is the fact that he is not merely a conspiracy-theory nut trying to discredit the right-wing at all costs. Rather, he himself has played a central role in various administrations' dealings with the Middle East and can personally testify to many of the events that took place preceding the manipulation of the hostage crisis by Reagan's powerful and influential campaign team.

I couldn't stop shaking my head as I read further and further into the book. The hypocrisy of the Reagan administration was simply appalling. You would have to be a die-hard Republican (unwilling to accept nor even hear of any hints of wrongdoing by Reagan) not to at least acknowledge that the allegations contained in this book warrant a thorough investigation.

If you have already read the many nostalgic books on the Reagan administration, or bought videos about our supposed "one of the greatest Presidents", let me dare you to read this book with an open mind. You'll see that it's not only the "liberals" that commit all types of scandals, they just happen to not be as good as the Republicans at covering it up at the highest levels.

<MORE>

http://www.amazon.com/October-Surprise-Americas-Hostages-Election/dp/customer-reviews/0812919890

[MissWaverly]

14. thank you, will bookmark thread

and add book to my summer reading list.

[whistle]

10. Ronald Reagan could lie with a smile that convinved people he was coming

...from his heart. He was just another slick Madison Avenue style marketing actor type bullshit artist who died without a thought left in that undead head of his. I hope the sharp wooden stick was driven right through his black heart in his coffin:

<snip>
President Reagan's Evil Empire Speech
to the National Association of Evangelicals
Orlando, Florida
March 8, 1983.

Those of you in the National Association of Evangelicals are known for you spiritual and humanitarian work. And I would be especially remiss if I didn't discharge right now one personal debt of gratitude. Thank you for your prayers. Nancy and I have felt their presence many times in many years. And believe me, for us they've made all the difference.

The other day in the East Room of the White House at a meeting there, someone asked me whether I was aware of all the people out there who were praying for the President. And I had to say, "Yes, I am. I've felt it. I believe in intercessionary prayer." But I couldn't help but say to that questioner after he'd asked the question that - or at least say to them that if sometimes when he was praying he got a busy signal, it was just me in there ahead of him. I think I understand how Abraham Lincoln felt when he said, "I have been driven many times to my knees by the overwhelming conviction that I had nowhere else to go." From the joy and the good feeling of this conference, I go to a political reception. Now, I don't know why, but that bit of scheduling reminds me of a story - - which I'll share with you.

<collectively we can all :puke: here>

<then he goes right on spinning the BS>

<deep snip>
A number of years ago, I heard a young father, a very prominent young man in the entertainment world, addressing a tremendous gathering in California. It was during the time of the cold war, and communism and our own way of life were very much on people's minds. And he was speaking to that subject. And suddenly, though, I heard him saying, "I love my little girls more than anything -" And I said to myself, "Oh, no, don't. You can't - don't say that." But I had underestimated him. He went on: "I would rather see my little girls die now, still believing in God, than have them grow up under communism and one day die no longer believing in God."

There were thousands of young people in that audience. They came to their feet with shouts of joy. They had instantly recognized the profound truth in what he had said, with regard to the physical and the soul and what was truly important.

Yes, let us pray for the salvation of all of those who live in that totalitarian darkness - pray they will discover the joy of knowing God. But until they do, let us be aware that while they preach the supremacy of the state, declare its omnipotence over individual man, and predict its eventual domination of all peoples on the earth, they are the focus of evil in the modern world.

It was C.S. Lewis who, in his unforgettable Screwtape Letters, wrote: "The greatest evil is not done now in those sordid 'dens of rime' that Dickens loved to paint. It is not even done in concentration camps and labor camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do no need to raise their voice."

Well, because these "quiet men" do no "raise their voices," because they sometimes speak in soothing tones of brotherhood and peace, because, like other dictators before them, they're always making "their final territorial demand," some would have us accept them as their word and accommodate ourselves to their aggressive impulses. But if history teaches anything, it teaches that simpleminded appeasement or wishful thinking about our adversaries is folly. It means the betrayal of our past, the squandering of our freedom.

So, I urge you to speak our <sp out> against those who would place the United States in a position of military and moral inferiority. You know, I've always believed that old Screwtape reserved his best efforts for those of you in the church. So, in your discussions of the nuclear freeze proposals, I urge you to beware the temptation of pride - the temptation of blithely declaring yourselves above it all and label both sides equally at fault, to ignore the facts of history and the aggressive impulses of an evil empire, <this was when Reagan 1st used this term> to simply call the arms race a giant misunderstanding and thereby remove yourself from the struggle between right and wrong and good and evil.

I ask you to resist the attempts of those who would have you withhold your support for our efforts, this administration's efforts, to keep America strong and free, while we negotiate real and verifiable reductions in the world's nuclear arsenals and one day, with God's help, their total elimination.

While America's military strength is important, let me add here that I've always maintained that the struggle now going on for the world will never be decided by bombs or rockets, by armies or military might. The real crisis we face today is a spiritual one; at root, it is a test of moral will and faith.
<MORE>

http://www.hbci.com/~tgort/empire.htm

[lyonn]

12. Interesting quotes. He was a better BSer than Bush

But the similarities are spooky. Got that god thing going from all directions. In the end they both were stripped bare to show who they really were and are, Phony and ignorant.

[MissWaverly]

15. thanks, folksy remarks from the man who deregulated

the S&Ls and caused this country much sorrow, then there was his denial of birth control to mothers on welfare and other such
acts of kindness that endears him to many including the release of the mentally ill back into society where they became homeless
and adrift from any safety net.


St. Ronnie, the poster boy for the GOP

[Buck Rabbit]

17. He inadvertently created Hezbollah, is that what they like about him?

Well he partnered up with Begin to do that, so he only gets half credit for that.

[MGKrebs]

19. That little island thing was pretty much a hoax.

Our premise was that they were...gasp... building an airport... with Cuban help, and that some students were in danger of becoming hostages, although tere was no known threat against them, and we apparently failed to ask them to come home or try to get them out at all before attacking.
The US government lied about things like saying they had found mass graves.
Much of the rest of the world was opposed to intervening into their political affairs.