16 Million Black Americans voted in 2004.

[AtomicKitten]

Poll question: 16 Million Black Americans voted in 2004.

QUESTION: If Democrats are successful in rallying Black America to get out and vote next year, do you think Hillary or Obama would motivate them more?

I ask this pertaining to these candidates specifically because I'm curious if Black voters will go for the wife of who is considered by many to be the First Black President, or will they vote for Obama who would actually be the First Black President?

I provided C as an outlet if you don't like this poll, or you can leave a valentine below.

Thanks.

Blacks who voted
2004 16 million
2000 12.9 million
1996 11.3 million

Whites who voted
2004 106.5 million
2000 95.0 million
1996 91.2 million

Overall voters who voted
2004 125.7 million
2000 110.8 million
1996 105.0 million

Source: U.S. Census Bureau

source: http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/9/11/12327/4260

[Cameron27]

1. I don't think anybody knows yet AK,

but it's going to be very interesting. From all I've read, it's the AA-women undecided vote that's going to make the difference...I think that's pretty awesome.

[AtomicKitten]

2. I am always stunned re-reading the stats on minority voters.

There is something seriously wrong with the system when millions of minority voters have just thrown in the towel. That really saddens me. And then there's disenfranchisement of voters in Florida (and everywhere) and Katrina and the fact that the four leading GOP assclowns on deck boycotted Hispanic and Black forums.

Effin hell.

[Cameron27]

5. self-delete

the % changed, so I've got nothing to say lol.

[laugle]

19. I think finally, we will have a large turn-out of democratic voters.

The fact that they are raising an enormous amount of money over the rethugs, I'm hoping that will be translating into dem voters.

Personally, I think a lot of rethugs will stay home, IMO! I think a recent poll showed only 20% of registered rethugs, are happy with their candidates.....not hard to see why.....

[JeanGrey]

112. Minority voters? It's ALL voters. It is really sad to see

only about 1/2 of voters voting.

[Vickers]

3. I selected Obama, but I must admit...

...I'm hankering for some goddam pie now.

THANKS A LOT.

:P

[AtomicKitten]

4. service

Psssst: Don't tell anyone, but you can vote AND have some pie.

[journalist3072]

6. Well, as an African-American woman myself, I'm looking forward to seeing

Who is able to garner more of the African-American vote in the Democratic primary. It will be very interesting to watch.

I will say though, that I am put off by people like Tom Joyner, who are constantly telling me that I need to vote for Barack Obama simply because he's African-American. For example, Tom Joyner recently had Michelle Obama on his radio show, and he asked her "What is up with Black women?" In other words, Tom was wondering why Obama isn't doing better among us; why the vote seems to be so split between he and Sen. Clinton, when it comes to African-American women.

As an African-American woman myself, I took offense to Tom's question. "What is up with Black women?" That question seems to imply that there's something wrong with me, just because I don't support Sen. Obama's quest for the presidency.

We, as African-Americans, have never been a monolithic group, and we shouldn't start to be that now.

I don't need for anyone (Tom Joyner included, as much as I love him), to tell me who I should be voting for.

I'll be voting for the candidate that I feel represents my interests and values. I won't be voting for anyone because they are African-American, or they are a woman.

[MadMaddie]

13. I agree with you....As another African American woman I

will not be told who to vote for...I can tell you it won't be a Rethuglican.

I don't know why there is an assumption that because we are black women will will vote for Obama.

The Best candidate will get my vote.

[journalist3072]

25. Exactly! And that's what really bothers me about Tom Joyner constantly doing Obama's bidding

Tom Joyner's radio show has a huge audience, and with the advocacy campaigns that he and Tavis Smiley have undertaken over years past, it's obvious that they have the ability to influence many people.

And I'm just troubled by his constant remarks about needing to vote for Obama because he's black. Tom keeps saying "We may never get this chance again."

I think comments like that do a great disservice to the African-American community.

We would be offended, and rightly so, if someone said they were voting for Clinton, Edwards, Kucinich, Biden, etc because they are White. Consequently, I think White Americans have the right to be offended if someone in our community (like Tom Joyner), said they were voting for Obama simply because he's Black.

I think Tom would be doing a great service, if he simply encouraged people to vote their values...to vote for the candidate that best represents their values.

This notion of voting for Obama simply because he's African-American, is nothing short of group-think. And I believe that is dangerous.

[MadMaddie]

35. You have stated something that is important....

Let's look at how well Clarence Thomas has been for the black community and other minority groups. There were those that said he's black...it's our only our second chance at putting a black on the Supreme Court (This even when the facts revealed he was not qualified)

How about Alberto Gonzales, first Hispanic to reach that level....wow he worked out real well for minorities and the general American population...(This even when the facts revealed he was not qualified)
:sarcasm:

As well as those who would say that Christianity is the reason to put someone in the WH....this is working out well for America isn't it? :sarcasm:


Group think is very dangerous...I have experienced it first hand in a stadium.....I attended a Lutheran college...and I sang in a 60 member Classical choir were were invited to sing at some Christian event.full of Christian youth....the energy level and the phsycological group think level was at it's highest....it was the scariest shit I have ever experienced...myself and several others felt the hair rise on our necks...

[AtomicKitten]

49. excellent point.

[Chovexani]

117. Heh

I don't know why there is an assumption that because we are black women will will vote for Obama.

Because white people think we're stupid, apparently. Even on DU.

[AtomicKitten]

119. So, you apparently find polling and census data offensive.

Predictions on how votes will fall is a parlor game now among many Democrats, and all kinds of data are legitimate in that deliberation.

Of interest, I'd like to point out that making a blanket charge that "... white people think we're stupid ..." is a gross generalization, the very thing you and a couple others are complaining about, the difference being I don't take offense because I understand the election process.

Crying "racism" is just a red herring. It is the lack of understanding of the election process that appears to be the problem. Polling data is an age-old tool to gauge many factors during an election, and it's important whether you like it or agree with it or not.

[Chovexani]

122. What I find patently offensive is not the data, but these types of conversations

The types of conversations on DU that assume everyone here is a middle class white person. The types that ignore POC (or fuck, let's be real about this, GLBT folks and also women) unless they toe the party line of what white people (yes, I said it) expect us to think/say/behave.

I understand the election process having been part of it as often as possible, both as a voter, a volunteer--AND YES, EVEN A POLLSTER AND POLL-EE--and I understand that you think anyone who disagrees with your bullshit assumptions is "crying" racism and doesn't know anything about the electoral process.

And it's funny how you can spot gross generalizations when they're pointed at your ass, isn't it?

But this uppity negro will just STFU.

[AtomicKitten]

123. the drama is impressive but really beside the point.

Racism seeks to exclude. This work is being done to include, engage, and lift up all Americans by bringing them into the election process. By definition, that is the precise opposite of racism.

And so I reject the epithets of "racist" hurled at me. I also reject and, in fact, resent your insinuation that whitey just doesn't get it; in fact, my family is exploring moving to New Orleans to do what we can to help in the rebuilding process. We are engaged in the process whether you like it or not, and I certainly am not going to apologize to you or anybody else for doing what I can to help.

Just because you are having difficulty grasping the gist of this conversation does not make you the arbiter of free speech.

"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." * Noam Chomsky

[laugle]

22. Well said!! nt

[AtomicKitten]

24. Have you ever seen Michael Eric and Marcia Dyson debate?

They are delightful. ME an Obama fan, Marcia a Hillary fan.

Actually this question resulted from friends and I debating it at dinner.

Mostly I just want all Americans to have some hope again.

Cheers.

[journalist3072]

27. Yep...as a matter of fact, they debated right on Tom Joyner's morning show

Very interesting to hear.

[AtomicKitten]

51. I rather don't mind the proselytizing but that's probably because I support Obama.

I guess I'm curious to see how the dominoes will fall. I'm hoping Obama can really reach as many people as possible. He invokes such hope in people. I just really hate the idea that people have given up hope in America.

Cheers.

[journalist3072]

58. See, for me personally, I'm going to need something more than "hope"

I need a more substantive message, than just the "politics of hope."

For example, I need to know where he stands on the issue of DC voting rights.

But that's my own personal view.

I think people are looking for some pie in the sky. They are looking for some Democratic savior to come in on January 20, 2009, wave a magic wond, and make everything alright again. I don't think it's going to be that simple.

[AtomicKitten]

62. Paging Al Gore.

[Clark2008]

7. Pie

Pie
Me oh my
Nothing tastes sweet, wet, salty and dry
all at once o well it's pie
Apple!
Pumpkin!
Minced
an' wet bottom.
Come to your place everyday if you've got em'
Pie
Me o my
I love pie

[AtomicKitten]

17. service

[onenote]

8. There are 100 million black americans eligible to vote? I think you need to work on your math

African American population is around 37 million. Not sure of the voting age number, but let's call it 26 million. 16 million vote. That's closer to 60 percent. http://www.census.gov/prod/2006pubs/p20-556.pdf

[AtomicKitten]

18. got it

I meant "million" instead of "percent."

Spank me.

[onenote]

23. no need for spanking

but its a rather significant distinction.

[AtomicKitten]

26. absolutely

cheers

[MadMaddie]

9. Here is the deal...if you really want to get the pulse of black

America...you can go to the beauty and barber shops around the country.

When I go I often bring up politics to get a guage of where black women in my area stand...

My beautician says she doesn't know if she will vote because she doesn't think her votes count....

This is where the Rethuglicans have damaged democracy even more than you can believe.

Many black voters feel disenfranchised....I am sure this goes to other communities too....

The Democratic party is wasting time....they should have been working on a Marketing plan for "Get out the Vote" at the beginning of this year.
There is still time...but they have to engage the rappers, the NAACP (even if it is a weak ineffective organization).

The Democratic party has to engage the black churches and win them back from the Neocons....

It's not rocket science..

[AtomicKitten]

16. Indeed it's not rocket science.

Democrats have got to give people a reason to be hopeful.

[AZBlue]

44. This is an excellent point and one I hope the DNC will heed.

They must get the point across that votes will count and that it does indeed matter who you vote for or even if you vote at all. This would be particularly important in areas that have had troubles in the past (ahem, FL, are you listening?) but it would make a big difference anywhere, no matter who the candidate is.

[haroldgiowa]

10. 16 million black voters,not 16%

Actually 16 million black voters out of 36 million registered black voters. This equates to 44% black voter turnout. Black voters make up 1/3 of the registered Democrats. The source is from your source.

[AtomicKitten]

11. thanks -- I fixed it.

:)

[provis99]

30. you're right

Black voting turnout during presidential elections hovers around 42-46%. For offyear elections, its about 38%. This may seem pathetically low, but Hispanics turn out at about 25-30% during Presidential elections, depending on how Hispanics are counted.

[AtomicKitten]

34. I'm really po'd the GOP'ers blew off the Hispanic and Black forums.

[bliss_eternal]

77. Shame on them.

They missed the opportunity to lump them all together, and make assumptions about them based on their ethnicity. :eyes:

[NOLALady]

12. I can't speak for all Black people, but the only

candidate that I will support is the one who has the intention of ending this bloody conflict. I could care less about the race, gender or spouse of the candidate.

[AtomicKitten]

15. Hey, NOLALady.

Welcome to DU. I would love it if you would post interesting tidbits about life in LA when you can. Many Americans are desperate to help.

Yes, let's end the war and start re-building NOLA. I couldn't agree more.

[MadMaddie]

21. Amen NOLALady...

I don't want a candidate that is going to hem and haw and can't make a decision.

And a big welcome to DU!
:hi:

[laugle]

14. I think black voters will vote like the rest of us, based on the issues

that effect their lives and also on electability.

Neither candidate should take the black vote for granted.....

[AtomicKitten]

20. My question was who would motivate them more.

I find that question highly debatable and I certainly can muster a good argument for both of them! :)

[laugle]

29. Should I re-phrase it...

I think the candidate that would motivate black voters more, is the one that shares their issues and whom they feel is electable.

If you want me to give you a name...of course, I believe it is Hillary, and that's how I voted in your poll.....big surprise....huh!

I think the polls are showing it too!
I don't like to count my chickens ahead.....only time will tell......

[AtomicKitten]

33. there you go

You expressed how and why you voted, and that it how discussions start.

Unfortunately, I think DU has moved beyond the point where you can get an honest answer and instead partisanship is putting a choke-hold on discussion. I wasn't asking people to choose which candidate they prefer.

[laugle]

36. I think your discussion here is going very well. I enjoyed

some of the posts very much. Best to you.......

[AtomicKitten]

39. cheers

:hi:

[Cameron27]

40. It turned into an excellent discussion,

which is what I expected.

[AZBlue]

84. I happen to think

that the question is relevant and important and the discussion has indeed been interesting. :thumbsup:

DLTWGUD
(don't let the whiners get you down)

[bliss_eternal]

28. Gee, let's all go ask the representative of the black race.

:eyes: Who is it this week--Oprah? Al Sharpton?

Sorry, but I find topics that presume to predict what ALL "black people" will do, based on race--as if there is some giant black brain thinking for an entire ethnicity, beyond insulting to the community at large. It's also an insulting presumption about human beings in general. This is how we get into blanketing and stereotyping or "people."

Where are the threads asking what ALL caucasians will do, based on what their polls reflect? :shrug:
Oh, that's right. There aren't any. Because you can't lump ALL caucasians together that way. But, of course too many seem to feel it's ok to this when it comes to people of color, glbt's, the immigrant population, women and the disabled.

Is it too much to ask that people exert a tad bit of sensitivity and not presume that just because people share a cultural, sexual or gender identity doesn't mean they all think, walk, talk or vote alike?

If you don't like to be lumped together with other people--as a liberal, progressive, individual or human being--why do it to others?

[AtomicKitten]

31. Well, I certainly didn't mean any offense to anyone

But you are looking at it differently than I am with this question. Race is just the backdrop of the question which really has more to do with old ties to the Clintons versus the new kid, and the answer to that is really political.

I think it's a legitimate question and I'm sorry that it offends you. I have no control over how you interpret this.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[laugle]

41. Why don't you read some of the

posts up-thread before you slam AK. You made your point...now let others make theirs. Thank you....

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[laugle]

46. I guess you didn't read the up-threads...

My point is that from the posts I see, many people have differing opinions.

Certainly you are entitled to you opionion...I never said anything to the contrary.

You seem to be very angry, and I think you would like to just shut down the OP's discussion--am I right??

I think you need to chill a bit....you said nothing that I would alert on...calm down......

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bliss_eternal]

67. I see.

YOU brought up your age.

"I" shared I didn't feel that was relevant AND that I didn't think it was appropriate to use your age to make assumptions or draw conclusions about you.

Somehow my choice to NOT USE YOUR AGE, constitutes an attack on ALL the babyboomers. :eyes: Right.

Let's be clear. My comments are for and about you and you alone. Don't make this about anything or anyone else. Or try to blur the issues as some sort of attack of people your age. You are the only one here, defending someone making blanket statements and putting people in boxes based on race.

MY original comments were for the OP. YOU made a choice to DEFEND the OP. Remember? I didn't go looking for you. Perhaps you thought sharing your age and vast experiences of life would intimidate me. I'm not at all sure why you felt the need to do so, but clearly, I am not intimidated.

And thank you, my life IS quite nice. :)

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AtomicKitten]

45. We have several minority candidates.

And race and gender have been thrown into the mix. Discussions will reflect that. However, I will inform my rainbow coalition of friends that you found our topic of discussion at dinner tonight offensive. My friend who brought this up will be interested to hear that considering he is Black.

Thanks for the lecture. Neither of us are clueless, but I suspect you already know that and are just trying to be offensive. Some people think whoever lobs the most/best snark wins, and in that regard you win. Congratulations. Well done. That'll fix me for dallying in a topic I have no business broaching. Right?

And in the end, you're still barking up the wrong tree.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AtomicKitten]

55. It is GROUNDBREAKING that we have these choices.

And I'm going to talk about it and celebrate it.

Cheers.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bliss_eternal]

80. I'm sorry...

...but where exactly are you celebrating this choice? I'm frankly confused.

Your op seems more focused on singling out an entire group of people and attempting to predict what they will or won't do. How is that a "celebration"?

[bliss_eternal]

79. Yes we will continue to hear about race and gender

...based on who's running right now.

But it's my belief that it's possible to discuss race and gender without placing people into boxes based on merely their race and gender. It's also possible to disccuss race and gender without making assumptions based on making broad assumptions about a person's race and gender.

Questions like "how will this race vote" seem to be inviting blanket statements, and assumptions about an entire group of people.Is that really fair, appropriate or accurate? Sure this is the way people are polled, but how much does it really tell us? Merely about the group of people that share an ethnicity that were polled on that day. It doesn't take into consideration different life experiences, backgrounds, religions, educations, etc., etc.

It also seems to be not taking into consideration the very vast differences within any given race or gender. Not everyone that is black will support Obama. Just like every black woman doesn't necessarily watch (or like)Oprah Winfrey. But some might make such assumptions--if they only looked at a person's commonality based on race and gender.

[bliss_eternal]

78. The way I see this...

...your question seems to imply that YOU believe it's possible for anyone to speak for an entire group of people, in this case the black populace. Which again denies a sense of individuality and asserts that the entire group thinks exactly the same.

Given this isn't the first time I've seen you make such biased assertions,or blanket statements I thought it was appropriate to point it out to you how inaccurate such comments are--and yes how offensive they can be to those that you stereotype in the process. I can't force you to "see" how inappropriate your comments are. I can merely ask that you consider it and hope I don't see more threads like this from you.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AtomicKitten]

121. "seems to imply" was your first mistake

You have built a strawman around what I "seem to imply." You can read all kinds of whatever floats your boat into the scrutiny of election data for the purpose of lecturing from a soapbox, the only problem is that you are dumping on me your disapproval of that useful traditional election tool. Your path of second-guessing has taken you around the bend on this one, and instead of trying to find your way to a position of reason on this, you have chosen to hurl the epithet of "racist" because it's easy and convenient.

[bliss_eternal]

126. Well, I guess you told me.

You really put me in my place, there--haven't you? lol.

Unfortunately, I can no longer indulge you in this vast waste of time and energy. :boring:

I continued to check this thread hoping perhaps something different may be added, supporting your assertions that I "misunderstood" you and your original post. Since that hasn't happened, I'm moving on.

I'm adding you to my ignore list, with others that use words like "strawman" when defending themselves, against what their own words show them to be. Your response pattern assures me I won't miss anything you may post in the future.

Oh, but please don't let me interrupt your fun. Continue to take down the obnoxious ever so rude bliss. You were doing such a good job and I totally understand your indignation. I mean, whatever was I thinking? Expressing an opinion on a message board. Tsk, tsk, tsk. The horror. The shame. The nerve, blah, blah. Do continue to revel in your outrage and offense. I hope this won't spoil it for you--but I won't be able to see any of it. :hi:

[AZBlue]

48. Actually, there's a lot of discussion of racial bloc voting - all races.

White, black, purple, yellow, polka-dotted, green, red, blue and pointy eared.
(I included that last one for you Star Trek fans).

A great deal of analysis is done in this country based upon voting trends by race. It's not meant to be racist - it's simply that people of different races have different experiences in this country and therefore vote differently. Certainly it's an over-generalization, but all political analysis and polling is.

The part about it that bothers me the most is my earlier comment: "people of different races have different experiences in this country" - that's the part that really needs to be changed.

[bliss_eternal]

57. THIS is a great point...

...and a valid issue. Yes, racial bloc voting is important. I'd welcome seeing discussions about that. But people need to realize that racial votes blocked are also representative of a certain group of people of color--usually those within a certain socioeconomic background. Clearly not ALL people of color, even black people are all poor--or Obama wouldn't exist. ;) Would he?

On edit--and after re-reading your comments you seem to argue for and against this simultaneously. :crazy: Yes, this may be the way it is--but how accurate is it or representative of the whole?

Also since when is "the way it is" right and no one speaks out against that?

Racial polling is a legal way to racially profile and it's inaccurate. Seeing threads on DU that seem to feel that anyone here is qualified to speak for the entire black community is divisive at best.

Clearly, not all white people think the same way or there wouldn't be two different parties at all. But how many threads do you see on this board calling out all white people? I assure you if there were even a few, the creator would be called a racist and everyone would be very upset by it.

Yet, apparently it's ok to do this sort of thing in regard to blacks, latinos, immigrants, women, glbt, the disabled, etc., etc. It's bullshit, and I for one don't want to see that here.

[AZBlue]

68. No, you can't figure out what an entire race is going to do & I don't think that was meant in the OP

But...and I'm trying to phrase this correctly so it's not taken the wrong way, because I mean this in the best way possible: I think African-Americans would be thrilled to see a fellow African-American in the WH. It would truly show how far as a country we've come and would further equal rights among all. At least, that's how I would view it and that's part of the reason I'd be pleased to see it happen (maybe I should say here that I'm white?). It would be monumental and fantastic and just plain exciting. Same would go for a Hispanic, female, Asian or any other non-white male candidate. And, wondering if those who share the same gender or race as a candidate would vote for him or her because of their shared trait is a valid question, IMO. A lot mroe people are asking this time how women will vote because of Clinton.

I agree - you can't generalize. But, you can get a mood for the trend. And, African-Americans have endured situations, comments, and backlash that no one else can truly understand. I can sympathize, but I haven't been there and I know that. For that reason, sometimes I get a sense of the black community acting as one at times - and for very good reasons. I see it just as much among Hispanics and Greeks and any other "minority" group (I hate that phrase, but it was the best to explain my meaning here). (I wish Caucasians in general hadn't lost their ethnicity along the way and still had cultural and historical ties, but that's another thread.) And that unity is furthered by some African-American leaders, such as Oprah, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. Personally, I think it's great. And, it's important - it strengthens the issues and brings about a better outcome. I feel like I'm babbling here, but my point is that just because I think a certain group might vote primarily in a certain way isn't a put-down. To me, it's self-realization. It's a group who has a shared experience and a shared goal coming together to support a candidate that best reflects and supports that - and a candidate that will best help them in the future. After all, isn't that what politics is really about?

So, no, no one can predict how all whites, all women, all blacks, all hispanics, all Virginians, etc will vote. But, there are trends that can be looked at and pondered. And, given the choice between a black president or a Clinton president (where Clinton = one of the Presidents who most understood and respected the black community), if I were black, I would probably be looking at some of the issues through that viewpoint. I do know that being a woman affects my opinions on the candidates and being someone who, I hope (I try), is sympathetic and a little understanding of "minority" issues in this country does too.

(edited for a typo in my subject line that changed the whole meaning of it...oops!)

[bliss_eternal]

71. Please, do me a favor...?

Kindly, don't tell me what other people think, feel or meant.
The op has been quite clear in communicating with me--what their intentions were. I haven't misunderstood anything and don't understand why you feel the need to speak for her.

I really dislike people other than the person I take issue with, presuming to somehow KNOW what another person MEANT by their posts.
It would save a lot of bandwith if people on this board allowed others to express themselves, without presuming to speak for them. It would be nice if you could respect me enough to form my own opinions, based on the context of what's been stated.

As for everything else you've shared--you have an interesting way of arguing for and against stereotyping simultaneously.
You're probably not aware that you do that--but that's what it looks like when I read your post. You say something isn't right, then you make an effort to excuse it or explain why it is. :crazy:

You of course are within your rights to continue to argue for and against the same issue. Excuse me, while I stand firmly against it--as is my right.

best to you,
bliss

[AZBlue]

72. I'm so not stereotyping.

Good night.

[bliss_eternal]

76. Interesting.

That you misread what I wrote.
Whatever.

[AtomicKitten]

61. this is an unprecedented election for many reasons

We could have the first Black, Hispanic, or woman president on 1/20/09.

Spectacular!

I just hope we can offer America someone who instills hope.

[AZBlue]

69. Wouldn't that be fantastic?!

It would help make me proud to be an American again.

Speaking of 1/20/09, I really need to get one of those countdown calendars - not only are they funny, I need to keep track of how many days are actually left...let's see, I get 477 as of today (it would be 466, but it's leap year next year!).

[bliss_eternal]

81. What kind of hope...?

:shrug:

[illinoisprogressive]

32. In the dem. Illinois senate primary, blacks broke from their candidates at the last min for obama

it was pretty scattered as for support for who in the senate primary. Obama, the only african american in the primary by no means had big support from african americans. At the last minute they abandoned their candidate and voted overwhelmingly, like 85% or so for Obama.
So, I have to go with past experience.

[AtomicKitten]

37. I am proud the Democrats have several serious "minority" candidates.

My biggest concern is that Americans - ALL Americans - will have a good reason to get off their duffs and vote.

[sandnsea]

42. women will proudly vote for the First Female President!!!

African Americans are afraid of being called racist if they vote for the First Black President.

It's a damn shame.

[AtomicKitten]

47. It's a tough choice on that basis, but really exciting.

First Woman President

or

First Black President

Either wound be groundbreaking from that perspective.

[Chovexani]

118. Are you serious?

African Americans are afraid of being called racist if they vote for the First Black President.

...I can't even parse the stupidity of this statement. Which "African Americans"? Do you even know any, besides your apocryphal "black friend"?

What's a damn shame is white DUers thinking black people are stupid, easily led, and vote for people solely because we share a fucking complexion. I'm a black person, my family is full of black people, I work, live and socialize with black people, and not a single damn one of us is afraid of being called racist if we vote for the First Black President. We're worried about the same shit everyone else is--naming, getting out of this illegal war, trying to manage the seemingly insurmountable cost of health care, and taking care of our damn kids.

Jesus Christ I'm embarrassed for this site sometimes.

[AZBlue]

50. I do like pie....but I voted BO.

[AtomicKitten]

53. well, in that case .....

something special for you:

[AZBlue]

56. Yummy!

[rinsd]

82. I have to go w/ Obama having a larger impact though I think black voter tunrout will rise w/ Hillary

[Ethelk2044]

83. Obama will turn out the African American base big time.

[Bucky]

85. These numbers seem suspicious

2004: 125.7 million voters = 16 million blacks + 106.5 million whites + 3.2 million for everybody else

2000: 110.8 million voters = 12.9 million blacks + 95.0 million whites + 2.9 million for everyone else

1996: 105.0 million voters = 11.3 million blacks + 91.2 million whites + 2.5 million for everyone else

This just doesn't look right to me. How are they measuring race, by precinct? By sampling survey?

[leaninglib]

86. Right now, they are supporting Hillary.

[Ethelk2044]

88. They have been moving away from her for awhile now. His support in the AA community is growing

[ecstatic]

89. Currently support is for Clinton, but if Obama were to become the nominee

the right wing rethug media would go into attack mode, and their attacks would energize black voters more than anything Obama could ever do or say.

[Greyhound]

87. Why do you insist on treating "Black Voters" as if they were a block, or some

kind of aliens that are in, but not a part of, American society.


Is it any wonder we all hate whitey?:rofl:

[AtomicKitten]

91. Yeah, it's not like the data contains those kind of breakdowns ...

Oh, wait it does.

I'll alert DU admin immediately that Caucasians are not allowed to discuss voting data. Please advise if I'm allowed to cast my vote for Obama because I certainly wouldn't want to offend anyone.

Who knew? All this time I've been wasting my time working with a group studying data across the country in preparation for the election in 2008. This data will determine which swing states need boots on the ground. However, I'll be sure to alert them of your feelings on the subject and I'm certain they will shut down the operation immediately.

Thanks for straightening us out on this. :eyes:

[bliss_eternal]

93. No one said any of that.

No one said "caucasians aren't allowed to discuss voting data."
I'm not sure why you would make such a statement, even jokingly.

I've tried (unsuccessfully) to point out to you that your wording and assertions were problematic and could be viewed by some as offensive. Instead of getting angry, defensive and seeming to make sarcastic comments, why not attempt to learn more about other people when they take the time to point things out to you?

As a general rule, people like to be thought of as individuals.

Had you started a thread asking some black DU'ers their opinion of Obama, I don't think that would have been offensive at all.

Asking anyone on DU to speak for ALL blacks....:( and :rofl:

I'm sorry, but I can see why the prior poster said that--it's laughable.

[AtomicKitten]

94. the only thing you pointed out is that you are incredibly rude

All you have done is hurl insults. Notice all the deletions? 99% of them are yours, a few others were posted by people pretty disgusted with you. That should have been a clue to you.

Now had you approached this in a civilized manner, that would be different. But you didn't.

Plus you are completely wrong, and worse you punctuate your own misreading of the scenario by being aggressively obnoxious. Oy vey.

[bliss_eternal]

95. Wow.

So when I attempt to post in a more appropriate manner, THIS is how you respond to me? Nice. :eyes:

I'm open to admitting that I spoke in great anger previously. As such some of my remarks may have been deemed inappropriate. Seeing the deletions, I realized this and took a step back and rethought my intent. Then attempted to express myself more "appropriately."

It does make me angry to see posts that lump people together--women, gays, people of color. I feel it's insensitive and contributes to a lot of misunderstandings about people. Given that people pm me thanking me for speaking up about such posts, my guess is I'm not wrong to do so.

You're entitled to dislike what I've said. I'm sorry that you do. But I'm entitled to say it, as long as I do so in a "civil" manner. :)

[AtomicKitten]

96. Insulting people is not a discussion.

And people that use that mode of bullying communication aren't worth talking to. Your behavior has been atrocious PLUS you have read this completely wrong.

And I'm so done with this BS.

[bliss_eternal]

97. ((sigh))

I'm attempting to "talk" with you now. Why do you keep bringing up the past? Those comments and remarks aren't here anymore. I've tried to engage you in civil, respectful conversation.

You said you didn't mean to offend, so I've attempted to understand your intent better. I've tried to ask you questions to get a better understanding of what you meant. Instead of allowing me to do that, you just keep reminding me that you feel "insulted." Even after you've made it very clear that you don't care that I was offended by your op.

Excuse me--you get to be offended, but no one else does?

[AtomicKitten]

98. it's unfortunate you didn't read what I wrote from the onset yesterday

Even after you've made it very clear that you don't care that I was offended by your op.

wrong again:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3566721&mesg_id=3566848

(((sigh indeed)))

I'm going to bed.

[bliss_eternal]

99. Yes. I did see that.

and I read it (but thank you for providing the link). I'm sorry to say this, but your response felt a bit dismissive to me.

You seemed to express an interest in how "blacks may vote."
Perhaps I was wrong to assume that your question implied interest in the people you inquired about. In doing so, it was probably wrong to think that you might also be interested in the "people" behind those votes. That "they" may not take kindly to being discussed in such an impersonal way, indirectly and as if the group doesn't encompass any individuals that are capable of expressing such ideas themselves--if asked directly.

I appreciate that you read my responses, giving me an chance to express myself more appropriately today.
I hope that you have a good night. :)

[AtomicKitten]

108. I think you should take people at face value -

and stop trying to second-guess and psychoanalyze complete strangers.

[bliss_eternal]

111. You're absolutely right.

Your original post and responses in this thread present exactly who and what you are. No analysis necessary. :)

[AtomicKitten]

113. right back at ya

Maybe you could mix it up next time and actually go for the record for most deletions in a thread since you don't actually have a point here, just a lot of blustery posturing.

[bliss_eternal]

115. LOL!

That's funny.
YOUR failure to understand my point, doesn't mean I lack one. There lies the difference.

[Name removed]

116. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AtomicKitten]

124. I reject your accusation of racism.

The work I do seeks to engage and lift up Americans whereas the basic tenet of racism is exclusion. Just by definition your accusation is out there.

I never read past the insults in your posts, but please feel free to continue to spit in the face of Americans trying to include all Americans in the dialog.

"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." * Noam Chomsky

[bliss_eternal]

125. Thank you for the quote---I love Noam Chomsky...!

Here's one for you:

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

--From Hamlet (III, ii, 239)

:hi:

[Greyhound]

104. Apparently you missed the entire point.

(color me surprised)

The breakdown is irrelevant, there is no such thing as a "black voter". There are voters and they each have a set of characteristics that make them unique human beings.

If a larger percentage of black people vote for Democrats, it is not because they are black, but more likely because they are treated differently by society because they are black, and same applies to each point of the individual "data set".

Because statisticians are so wrapped up in their obsession with analyzing minutiae in order to define trends, it does not follow that the minutiae causes the trend.

Isaac Asimov wrote a whole series about the "emerging science" of psychohistory, it works from a sufficiently great distance, but is useless in the short term. Put another way, Las Vegas was built on people that think they can predict chance in the short-term, but in the long run, the house always wins.

[AtomicKitten]

105. to be precise, YOU missed the point

... which doesn't surprise me at all. :silly:

You are belly-aching about the very essence of election data, data that does, in fact, break down into all kinds of specifics including gender, age, ethnicity, regional, etc., etc. Whether or not you believe in its efficacy or in the Easter Bunny for that matter is really of no concern.

No worries. The folks compiling this data will tell you where the boots on the ground are needed, that is, of course, assuming you do more than keyboard commando psychoanalysis. You're welcome.

[Greyhound]

110. Utterly hopeless.

I guess this is what I get for even trying to talk to someone that claims a liberal bent, yet can't seem to even communicate without mean-spirited, and worst of all, unoriginal attempts at put downs.

We do have the government we deserve. Thank you.

[AtomicKitten]

114. don't sell yourself short -- your faux outrage is spectacular!

[bliss_eternal]

92. LOL! And thanks...!

:rofl: For adding some much needed perspective (and humour) here.
Apparently I'm not the only one a bit put off by such a question.

Hmmm.

[Bullet1987]

100. I think Black voter turnout will be substancial for both Clinton and Obama...

but probably moreso Obama.

[ThomCat]

101. Wow. Several problems.

First, why is it that white people get broken up into multiple demographic groups, by income, by region, by religion, by location (urban/suburban/rural) but black people get queried as a monolithic group?

Second, why wouldn't some percentage of black people support Edwards, or Kucinich, or Richardson? A lot of discussions have been about Edwards and his pro-labor possitions.

[noamnety]

120. I remember this issue from the Tough Guise movie

If we announce that we're going to discuss race issues, it's generally assumed we mean we are talking about black people, or latin@s, or any other group, except white people.

If we announce that we want to talk about gender issues, it's generally assumed we mean women's studies.

If we announce a lecture about sexual orientation, it's assumed we mean we're going to talk about GLBT issues.

The dominant culture gets an assumption of normalcy, therefore there's nothing to discuss. All else is a deviation from the norm, and worthy of separate discussions to examine why they are deviant and in what ways.

[rasputin1952]

102. While I know race plays out in many things, and I find that

sad, you'd think we'd be beyond that, I wish everyone who is eligible to vote would do so.

I don't believe that any "group" should vote in any kind of block, I would hope that people would make up their own minds and vote accordingly.

I have been a voter advocate for many years. I have learned that people who vote the smartest are the ones who do a little homework, and they never blindly follow whatever "leadership" advises them to do.

Caucasians, Blacks, Hispanics, Asians...I don't even want to get into religious denominations, are all intelligent, although often misinformed "groups> It is the individual that counts when it comes to the person in the voting booth.

I should hope that Blacks, as should everyone else, vote for what is in the best interest of individuals and the nation as a whole. This should assure that the GOP does not hold power for a generation or two. D's can mess up too, but the GOP seems to have serious bragging rights.

I don't think people should vote for Obama because he is black, I don't think others should have voted for bush because he said he was a christian, point is, what have these people done in the past that qualifies them? If Americans would have looked at bush's past, he'd be chasing cats in a barrel w/o hope of getting a job.


FWIW, and this is my opinion only, I have yet to see one candidate stand out, D or R, they are all pretty lame at this point. Sure, they have some good points, who doesn't? But overall, if this is the best this Nation can do, we're in some pretty sorry shape.

[Totally Committed]

103. The wrong Clinton is featured in your poll. If they vote "Clinton", they will be voting for Bill,

not Hillary. I believe that sincerely. So, it's Bill against Obama. We shouldn't suffer the illusion that it is any other way.

TC

[AtomicKitten]

106. I said that in the OP.

Of course this is about Bill Clinton vs Obama, and the implications are as obvious as they are intriguing.

And, to tell you the truth, nobody I know, colleagues or friends, has a clue how this will go down.

[calteacherguy]

107. I like pie. No idea.

Except that I heard locally in the bay area blacks in Oakland have gone in past months from strongly supporting Obama to favoring Hillary. It was part of a story on the mayor of Oakland and the head of he city council endorsing Clinton recently.

So, take that for what it's worth.

[AtomicKitten]

109. She has some eager volunteers in Oakland

They stake out BART ...

It's all about boots on the ground.