"he is far too straight a shooter to ever become president"

[PatSeg]

This comment by Jim Freeman at OpEdNews.com about Joe Biden is rather startling to me. Voters usually claim they want a straight shooter for president, but in reality, will they actually vote for one? Do people really vote for what they want? I want to believe it is possible, but I am inclined to think that most people fall for the political package presented to them and blatant honesty disturbs them.

<So, Joe Biden (who is often criticized for his candor) nailed it. Joe often nails it, but he is far too straight a shooter to ever become president. Obviously, the U.S. Senate doesn't control the Iraqi Parliament--which can't control itself, which is the real proof of a very stinky pudding. Unlike wine or cheese, this pudding will not improve with age.

But Joe has done a great service by beginning a dialog that Iraqis have thus far ignored. Truth is (as far as truth can ever be known) Iraq will end up a partitioned country--one way or another.>

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_jim_free_070930_looks_like_joe_biden.htm

[wtmusic]

1. Mr. Straight Shooter calls Ahmadinejad a "madman"

but not the president (blatant honesty, as long as nothing's at stake).

[PatSeg]

7. "Brain dead"?

“This guy is brain dead,” Mr. Biden said to surprised applause and laughter from the crowd. “I know I’ll be quoted, I’ll be killed for that.”

That may be more accurate than "madman".

[gateley]

14. EXCELLENT example, tsegat! And the "nothing at stake" comment falls by the wayside. nt

[monmouth]

2. Joe is all the talk here since the debate last week. I hear many remark

they had no idea he was so intelligent and knowledgeable. My question: What was B. Clinton's standing back at this juncture in comparison with Joe's? I swear Biden is a dark horse and needs to be promoted to the top tier. The Kucinich party I hosted was a fun event, but most attendees were impressed overall with Joe. That's a good sign, these are mostly mid-western people who don't make up their minds until days before voting. He always impresses me.

[PatSeg]

8. I think it was "Bill who?"

John Kerry was the guy with the "hair" from somewhere in the east.

[gateley]

13. I keep thinking that when I first came to DU -- lo, one long month ago --

I was only BARELY interested in Biden. At that point I'd watched the debates and sincerely couldn't make up my mind. I felt that each and every candidate could bring something new and exciting and important to the Presidency. The metamorphose was gradual. Biden just drew me in more and more. I think a big part is precisely BECAUSE he's such a straight shooter.

In Dartmouth he prefaced a response with "I'm going to get in trouble for saying this..." but went ahead with the statement. I couldn't imagine any of the others willing to do that with the exception of Gravel (whom I love for the same reasons).

Thank you so much for this message! It makes me feel good to realize that Baden's obvious passion and intent are being noticed by others.

:hi

[PatSeg]

28. Only a MONTH??

And you passed the 1000 mark? Pretty impressive.

[gateley]

46. Yeah, I need to shut up. And get a life. nt

[dansolo]

49. Intelligent and knowledgable? You've got to be kidding.

Biden is an idiot. Look at this quote:

"For his part, Biden continued to press Kaddafi on Democratic reform, albeit in a folksy, non-threatening manner. “If this is a democracy,” he asked his host, “can the people get rid of you?” Kaddafi said “No,” adding that he had a special claim to his position. “I started the revolution.” Biden pointed out that George Washington had started the American Revolution, but that he was “kicked out” after eight years in office"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4488493

Biden is either ignorant of our own history, or he is trying to rewrite it. Washington refused to run for a third term, demonstrating his exceptional character, even when he would have been the overwhelming choice.

[MADem]

3. Mondale said the next president would have to raise taxes, he got the axe, too. NT

[sutz12]

4. Unfortunately, most people wish to be skillfully lied to, rather than honestly spoken to.

:shrug:

[PatSeg]

6. Yeah

"I know he's lying, but damn, he's so good at it! I don't want the truth, I want to feel good."

[Capn Sunshine]

12. BINGO

and Biden's support of the bankruptcy bill was when he proved he's not that skillful a liar

[aquart]

5. I agree. Those were his real opinions at the Thomas-Hill hearings.

He didn't believe that sexual harassment or an obsession with talking about porn were relevant. He said so. I believe him. But they are relevant to me. Biden didn't understand why she stayed. I did. Biden can rot in hell.

<http://www.aliciapatterson.org/APF1602/Graves/Graves.html>

<http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n9_v45/ai_13794068>

[gateley]

15. Who Hoo! "Biden can rot in hell". You can post all the facts you want, and I'm

not disputing anything, but I'm instead trying to understand why that may have been his approach -- to understand his motivation.
We really can't do that very objectively -- or at least I can't. So I guess I'm just accepting what occurred and moving on. People make fucked choices, but there's always the opportunity to learn from that and move in a better direction, and that's my feeling about Biden.

I WILL project enough to assume that people of conscience and basic goodness are deeply affected by their actions which they've come to realize and understand are just wrong and unjust. Considering myself one of those people, it's painful for me to acknowledge some of the things I've done in the past -- not sure I'll ever forgive myself, but I realize the wrongs and from my heart and experience, I don't make the same mistakes again. I think that's what growing as a person means. And I keep tryin!

This approach is much more gentle to my soul and stomach than the roiling hatred I would feel if condemning someone to hell.

You might like to try it sometime.

[PatSeg]

19. The Clarence Thomas hearings are extremely divisive

on both sides. He clearly was not qualified to be a Supreme Court Justice and there was plenty of verifiable evidence to that fact. The republicans were banking on the Democrats to be afraid to vote against Thomas because he was "black" and would thereby overlook his extreme conservatism and mediocre credentials.

Anita Hill came forth with allegations that could not be proven and distracted the hearings from more substantial issues. Biden opposed the lie detector test she was given, as he felt it was a violation of civil rights and if it wasn't admissible in a court of law, shouldn't be used in a senate hearing. The hearings turned into a circus and Thomas's many other shortcomings got swept under the rug.

I am not saying that sexual harassment should not be an issue, but if it cannot be proven, it only serves as a distraction. To this day I do not know what I believe and I doubt we'll ever know the truth. I DO know that Thomas was a terrible choice and would have been whether there was an Anita Hill or not. Biden voted against Thomas because of his lack of credibility based on what was known, not on allegations.

[jillan]

32. If you want to bash him for that - you better thank him for saving us from Bork.

Heaven help us all if Bork was on that bench.

[lyonn]

34. These are issue that counter that Biden was against Anita Hill

These are answers taken that tells how Biden saw the issue during the hearings when proving Anita Hill had been sexually harrassed. Biden was not the final word when it came to how the Dems were going to prove Thomas was not fit for the Supreme Court (during Bush's reign it is a one man rule, not back then), Also, Ogletree was definitely defending his loss concerning Ms. Hill:

BIDEN: I wanted a panel on sexual harassment to come and testify, so we could put in context what we were talking about. And it was decided by the Hill people that they didn't want that panel to come on. Again, there was a feeling --communicated to me secondhand -- that Anita Hill had won this thing. She had made her case. And I kept saying, `wrong, this ain't over.' I was very disappointed ....Whether or not it would have helped Anita Hill, it would have enlightened; it would have shed more light on the veracity of the comments that had been made by all parties in my view.

-snip-

BIDEN: Do I have any regrets (about the hearings)? That I didn't attack the attackers more. Some of the articles that have been written say, `Why didn't I do what the Republicans did?' If I had done what the Republicans did, I would have made a lie of everything I think I stand for. I ran for the United States Senate in part because I truly believed the one hallmark of my 20-year career is that civil liberties mean a great deal to me.
Mark me down as not joining the school that the end justifies the means. What's wrong with America is that we have gotten to the point where our perception of what is right and wrong is judged on the result. I am not going to join the parade that violates the most fundamental sacred principle that I think should judge and govern those who govern.

-snip-

IS THOMAS ON THE COURT ONLY BECAUSE HE IS BLACK?
BIDEN: "I think that the only reason Clarence Thomas is on the Court is because he is black. I don't believe he could have won had he been white. And the reason is, I think it was a cynical ploy by President Bush."


Biden's responses are very impressive.

[jillan]

41. He also did alot for Anita Hill.

There was a problem with her lie detector test, and he kept that out of the hearings because he knew Orin Hatch would have ripped her apart about that.

And he also kept a previous co-worker from testifying against her because this guy was going to testify how Anita Hill was proud to be dating Thomas.

[Debi]

9. Maybe voters want to be told what they want to hear

rather than the truth?

Although, what I've seen from the debates all we're being told is 'wait "til I'm president and then you'll see what I'm going to do". :eyes:

I think I'd rather hear the candidates plan or at least their opinion.

[Think82]

10. I dunno, after 8 years of bush...

people might be hungry for some authenticity... who knows? This election might be a bit different from the past...

[Greyhound]

11. No, not yet. Once their 401(k) has been stolen and their homes are gone

because they can't pay the taxes, and they have to work 80 hours a week just to eat, and the kids can't go to school so they can bring a few bucks to help the family...

IOW, once we're back to the gilded age, then they'll want change, and it will be too late.

[gateley]

17. It's never too late. Even if everything collapses and we have to start from scratch,

it's never too late. If it comes to that, I would like to know Biden was at the helm guiding us along the way -- because he'd be leveling with us and we'd be in it together. That's the level of trust and faith this man inspires in me. The others, I'm not so sure. (Although I do make an exception for Kucinich in this scenario -- he's a straight shooter, too. And then there's Gravel! :7)

[gateley]

18. K&R -- I think this is a great, thought provoking thread. Thanks for posting it! nt

[Greyhound]

20. Well, they have about the same chance to break through. I hope I'm wrong, but

history shows that it is unlikely.

I haven't supported him because of his pandering to the financial corporations and how he conducted his office in the 80s, but he would still be preferable to Clinton.

[gateley]

24. Well -- I say fuck history. Regardless of whom you support, we've never faced

the situations we're facing now, so history is kind of irrelevant. We have to hope -- for both our candidates and the supporters of the other non "Top Tier" guys --

that people will really be ready for something/someone different.

I can feel it swelling, cant you?

Good luck to us all. :toast:

[Greyhound]

27. I'll just say that I hope you are right, and leave it at that. n/t

[PatSeg]

23. I believe that is the direction we're headed now

People's political beliefs tend to change drastically when it hits home. It is a shame that things have to get so bad before people pay attention.

[Greyhound]

45. But that is what seems to always happen. I suppose that means that if

they can keep it from totally collapsing for another 13 months, we will get four more years of the same looting.

You know, the more that I think of it, in the longer run, that may not be a bad thing. Of course it will be hell on earth for those of us that have to live through it, but if it results in Americans waking up and realizing that we have all the power, it might be worth it.

[PatSeg]

22. That is my hope

People have changed a lot and more people are paying attention to the political process. Hopefully they are not as gullible as in the past.

[gateley]

16. Agree -- and it may be the best they can do at this point -- tell us what

their opinion is of the situation and how they would deal with said situation.

I remember HW Bush's "No new taxes". (Did he also say "read my lips"? I forget).

When he assumed office and of course raised taxes he told us he was wrong, he didn't understand what he'd be faced with, and honestly believed there would be no new taxes.

I accepted that and felt it was valid. That's all we're asking from someone -- treat us as partners in this process, don't lie to us.

For years I've felt that no one really knows what they'll have to address until they're living the life. Kind of like marriage.

[PatSeg]

25. Oh yeah, "read my lips" was the phrase

and when he ran against Clinton, it came back to haunt him.

[gateley]

21. Perfect example of Biden being a straight shooter:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x59020


As I watched this vid, it felt to me like that Joe was actually involved in a conversation with Matthews Almost as if they were sitting across the table from one another, just the two of them.

When most of the others are interviewed, I get the impression that they have a studied, intent, attentive look on their face while behind the facade their brains are whirling a mile a minute deciding which would be the "best" response.

Biden's part of the dialogue comes across as much more extemporaneous and REAL.

I love this video!

[PatSeg]

26. He has a way of really engaging a person

during a conversation and the "real" aspect jumps out at you, probably because we see it so rarely.

[gateley]

29. Perfect! I envy your ability to convey so succinctly. nt

[PatSeg]

36. Thank you

I've learned that often people don't pay much attention if a post is too wordy. It sometimes takes a great deal of effort to be concise, something that Biden has learned as well it appears.

[jillan]

30. The thing with Biden is that he doesn't pander. He doesn't tell

people what they want to here. Instead he tells them the truth. And he demands that others do to -
for example-
He made Hillary tell the truth at a debate how long it was really going to take us to get our troops out of Iraq.

Is it possible that Americans want to continue to get lied to?
To have candidates make empty promises? To have candidates say one thing to Yankees fans and another to Cub fans?

No thank you. I want someone who tells me the truth, whether it's what I want to hear or not.

[gateley]

31. What you said. nt

[PatSeg]

37. I'm tired of second guessing a candidate

"Okay, now what does he/she really mean?" It is exhausting.

[jillan]

38. And I'm tired of candidates talking out of both sides of their mouths.

[hootinholler]

33. Why the fuck would we elect citicorp to the oval office?

I know, he has qualifications, especially with foreign affairs, but I'll never get over the bankruptcy corporate giveaway on the backs of the unlucky.

-Hoot

[jillan]

35. I don't know why we would elect Hillary?

They own her.
http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.asp?id=N00000019&cycle=2008
$160,500 from citicorp - 2nd highest contributer to her campaign.

Compare that to this
http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.asp?id=N00001669&cycle=2008
Biden got 33k from Bank of America. His 6th highest contributor.

Just a little bit of a difference - don't ya think?

About 127,000 differences........

[hootinholler]

40. No Hillary fan here, but at least she took them for more.

:sarcasm:

I can't stand either of those DLC biotches.

-Hoot

[laylah]

39. My hesitation also...

he lobbied/supported/voted for a bill that hurts the most unfortunate! i.e. medical and divorce, both being the largest percentage of bankruptcies. And now, even our soldiers are not exempt. WTF is up with THAT? Sorry Joe...

edited for spelling

[jillan]

43. You are wrong about the divorce part - well half of it -

The bill helps a single parent because the spouse cannot claim bankruptcy to get out of paying child support.

That said - this Biden supporter will not defend his vote on that bill. I understand why he did it, but I wish he didn't.

[shimmergal]

50. If he'd say he regrets that vote,

as some Senators have regretted their vote on thoe IWR, I might be able to support his candidacy.

But how likely is that to happen? Nobody's even asking him to do it, are they?

[Think82]

42. kick

[demommom]

44. KICK

[demommom]

47. Kick

[demommom]

48. Kick

[saltpoint]

51. I worry about the voters who liked Bush because he was somebody they'd

like to drink a beer with.

God what a sickening thought.

Bush, I mean, not the beer itself.

Biden is a bit direct and his candidacy will challenge a lot of assumptions. But I like him and think he'd be a terrific chief executive, would appoint competent, insightful, and dedicated people to his Cabinet, and would put FAR better judicial butts on benches.

I like the guy.