It's Called ACTUAL LYING, Mrs. Clinton

[MannyGoldstein]

“My vote was based on the best assessment that I could make at the time, and it was clearly intended to demonstrate support for going to the United Nations to put inspectors into Iraq.” Source: Union Leader Interview, February 10, 2007.

(Hillary Clinton voted against the Levin Amendment, which would have required the President to get a UN resolution before invading Iraq.)

From http://www.flipfloppers.org/hillary-clinton/hillary-clinton-explains-her-support-for-the-iraq-warwith-a-lie/

[jefferson_dem]

1. She should be ashamed (y'right). She was banging the war drums as much as anybody back then.

Her cold-hearted dismissal of Code Pink --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYATbsu2cP8

[Perry Logan]

2. It's bad karma to use the Bush administration's lies to bash Hillary. And not overly bright.

[MannyGoldstein]

3. Did She Do This Or Not?

Address the message, not the messenger.

[CoffeeCat]

18. Those who cheer-lead for warmonger Hillary...

...can never truly explain her warmongering votes and her current
pro-Iran-war rhetoric--that rivals the blatherings of Lieberman.

They never address her warmongering.

They remain silent--just like has been the past several years while
BushCo has torn up the Constitution, illegally wiretapped, tortured,
got rid of Habeas, infused our elections with fraud and turned the
Oval Office into Dictator Central.

She's silent---and completely impotent and seemingly uninterested in
ANY of those issues. I have yet to hear ONE PERSON effectively argue
why it's a good thing that Hillary Clinton has next to nothing to say
about our Constitution and our civil rights being flushed down the toilet.

[MGKrebs]

39. False, hyperbole,and ignorant.

[CoffeeCat]

52. You just proved my point...

Are you trying to be a comedian?

You Hillary supporters have yet to defend or explain her
silence and lack of concern about Bush destroying our
Constitution and the current threats our democracy
and civil rights face.

Again, I ask you--or any Hillary supporter---why is this
ok with you?

You can call me whatever you like. The fact remains that
Hillary has stood by and has done NOTHING that has impeded
BushCo's Fascist tactics. In fact, she has yet to acknowledge
or have a serious conversation about Habeas being dead, torture,
Guantanamo, illegal wiretapping, etc.

She's an abomination and those who support her cannot defend her
horrendous behavior.

I've yet to see any Hillary fanatic defend or explain her lack of
concern or words about the peril this country faces.

[Flea]

40. Agree

A noble politican/leader would give up all the unconstitutional presidental power * has collected.

She is obviously salivating at the chance to get ahold of that power.

[L0oniX]

42. Welcome to DU

[Flea]

45. tyvm n/t

[papau]

4. there is not much analysis/review of history going on - the Clinton & Obama "lies"

would be on interest to everyone - since I don't see them as lies - but would like the facts out in the open

As to Obama I wrote up his changing thoughts (up to the CNN interview where he seemed to say he had lied in the past) at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=109&topic_id=30974&mesg_id=30974

As to Clinton, it is a fact that she was not impressed by a UN requirement for yet another resolution, but only demanded inspectors be given a chance.

And that and other items should be out in the open - in my opinion.

[MethuenProgressive]

5. You link to an anti-Democratic Party website for your talking points?

And please, while you're posting flamebait, explain how you've decided what she said was a "lie"?
And also please, cite your legitimate sources.

[MannyGoldstein]

6. Quote And Facts - Use Your Head

There's nothing subjective in that link.

[durrrty libby]

11. I remember Manny bragging that he bought some dopey Hillary

dash -- site. So is this just him promoting his own shit?

[sniffa]

7. great, more sexist buLLshit hiLLary bashing

k&r

:thumbsup:

[durrrty libby]

10. That is an MG specialty. At least 90% of his posts are spent

bashing Hillary. Says something special, doesn't it:think:

[Tellurian]

12. Yes, Manny could fill in at Fox tv

at the drop of a hat!

[AzDar]

51. Perhaps Hillary could put in a good word for him at Fox ; I understand

she's very friendly with their top guy.

[jgraz]

27. Yes it does. Nice of him to take the load off the rest of us

Keeping up with Hillary's lies is a full-time job. Good to see we have folks like Manny on the case.

[Skittles]

25. the "Mrs. Clinton" couldn't make the misogyny much more obvious

no indeed

[slick8790]

48. Yeah, ok.

That must be why I don't like Hillary.

Not her unrepentant Iraq War vote.
Not her Lieberman-Kyl vote.
Not her shameless triangulation.
Not her "play to the center" DLC bullshit.


It must be because I just can't bear the thought of a woman president. Kudos on your razor sharp logic, there.

[Apollo11]

8. I am not a fan of Hillary - but how is this a lie?

Hillary's position was no different from Tony Blair's position.

They were saying it would be impossible to get the UN Security Council to agree a resolution authorizing the use of force against Iraq.

President Chirac had said on TV that France would veto any such resolution.

Still the theory was that Iraq could be pressured into cooperating more fully with the inspections.

The problem was that it involved trusting people like Cheney and Rumsfeld, who had already decided that the invasion would go ahead - no matter what.

[Carrieyazel]

23. But why would she be naive enough to trust two devils like Cheney and Rumsfeld.

[ShortnFiery]

9. Kick

to rid us of The Clintonian DLCers! ;)

:dem:

[Lost4words]

13. Hillery the Hawk!

[jmp]

14. Bill handed W the file on Iraq. Hillary KNEW ...

Exactly what the CIA knew and what it didn't.

Hillary lied then and is still lying now.

[Apollo11]

15. "Intelligence" is not the same as "Facts"

CIA is an Intelligence Agency not a Facts Agency. There's a big difference.

Iraqi dissidents were telling western intell agencies that Saddam was developing WMD.

These dissidents were politically motivated and calling for regime change in Iraq.

The Iraqi regime did have a big military budget. But most of that money was being wasted.

As it turns out - Iraq was not the military threat that people were saying it was.

If you asked me five years ago - how would I know that Colin Powell was a liar??

Or was Powell just repeating the misinformation that Rumsfeld had given him?

My point is this is a question of judgement more than one of honesty.

OK so Hillary made the wrong call on Iraq. But that don't make her a liar.

[jmp]

16. But you didn't have access to ALL the information.

Bill did. And they sure as hell knew who Chalabi was and what his motives were. Hillary wasn't some citizen who had to rely on Bush & Cheney's BS ... she was married to the guy with the highest security clearance on the planet.

Plain and simple ... She lied.

[AlGore-08.com]

17. At the time Gore asked the top folks at Oak Ridge they told him that the aluminum tubes thing was BS

Which was one of the (many) reasons that he spoke out so strongly against the IWR in Sept. 2002 and urged Congress to vote against it.

It was very possible to get outside expert opinion on such things in 2002 and learn independently that Iraq was not on the verge of launching a nuclear attack on the United States.

Clinton either voted for the IWR out of incompetence (Smirk & Co had been playing "bait & switch" with Congress for over a year and she still trusted them?), or the worst kind of politics. She says she was fooled by Smirk & Co., but name me one pol running for office who is ever going to say, "I knew it was wrong to vote for it, but voting against it required a huge amount of political courage, so I voted for it."

[Usrename]

24. She's lying NOW, didn't you bother to read the OP?

In the present tense, not five years ago.

She's saying that her position was exactly the opposite of how she voted. Get it?

She is trying to rewrite history.

I wonder where she learned that trick?

[Apollo11]

33. I read the OP more carefully that you did - apparently!

Back in 2002, Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, John Edwards and Tony Blair (among others) justified their standing alongside President Bush on the grounds that they wanted to put maximum pressure on Saddam (in effect, by holding a gun to his head) so that Iraq would cooperate fully with the UN inspectors.

That is not the same as "requiring" a second UN resolution that would explicitly authorize the use of military force against Iraq. Don't forget in the UN Security Council each permanent member has a veto. President Chirac said on TV that France would not accept any resolution authorizing a military attack on Iraq.

As everyone around here knows - I am not a huge fan of Hillary.

But that don't mean I will endorse ALL accusations made against her.

Right now my dream ticket for 2008 would be GORE-OBAMA B-)

[Usrename]

37. We agree on those facts,

Only, now she is saying something completely different. She is saying that she did expect him to get another resolution. In fact, she voted against that.

[CoffeeCat]

19. ....and don't forget....

...that the PNACers themselves---went to Bill during his administration and asked
him to go to war with Iraq and oust Saddam.

Bill's response...He wanted to, but he couldn't because was afraid that the country would
think that he was "wagging the dog". He didn't want America to accuse him of starting a war
to quell the Lewinsky scandal that was at full tilt.

Doesn't that say it all?

The fact that Bill didn't tell those warmongering motherf*&#*%$# to shove it up their asses--reveals
quite a bit. Either you stop the warmongering neocon, fascist scum from destroying this country
and running roughshod over the American people----or ya don't!

Bill never exposed the fact that these bastards came to him and asked for war with Saddam. We
only heard about it after it was posted on the PNAC site.

And another thing--Hillary and Bill BOTH could have come forward as Georgie rushed to war with Iraq.
Both could have said, "These are the same people who asked me to go to war with Saddam in the late 90's.
I told them no. Now they're trying again. They've wanted to do this for a long time, and now they're
using fear and 9/11 to get their foot in the door".

That's what ANY OF US would have said!!! Any DUer would have done that.

They had the power to do what any of us would have done. They did not. Can those of you
who live in a fantasy land--where Bill and Hillary Clinton are on the side of the
US citizens--(and not the corporations and the warmongers) please step out of the bubble?

After all that has happened in this country--are there any doubts that Bill and Hillary
sold out long ago and are now part of the elite, corporatist, greedophiles who are running
this nation??????

Please! Wake the hell up Hillary supporters!

[Flea]

43. Sanctions.

Also remember those sanctions that killed hundreds of thousands of children while Saddam was still shitting in gold toliets and living the high life.

[illinoisprogressive]

20. flipfloppers? very cool. I like it.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jgraz]

26. Because when most of the criticisms are true, you need to blow a lot of smoke

[Guaranteed]

32. And it helps to blow a lot of highly PROTECTED smoke- a lot of SCARY

smoke- around here.

There are certain words that people can use around here that simply scare the shit out of others.

Guaranteed, however, there is virtually none to no sexism going on in the Democratic Party against Sen. Clinton.


She is simply the SHITTIEST candidate we have offered to us.

[Carrieyazel]

22. Great post. She also said that Iraq had WMD. And she LINKED Hussein with Bin Laden!

Those are the two biggest outright lies used by the despicable Shrub administration to rush us into this catastrophe. So of course she lied. And she's done it repeatedly, starting from that awful speech in 2002. And she did an even better job at it than Shrub and Birdshot did. That was huge. And she can't be forgiven for it. It still haunts her, and she's trapped herself inside a box that she'll never be able to get out of. That's the problem in a general election match-up with Ghouliani, for example. Hillary can't make any real distinction with the Repuke nominee on foreign policy. That's what's going to do her in.

[paulk]

35. please provide proof of your allegations

you may even make me change my mind about her....



ed for sp

[Carrieyazel]

36. The video from her speech on the floor of the Senate on 10/10/02

when she announced she was voting for the war, tells you everything. In that one floor speech she talked about Iraq having WMD, (disproven) and said that Saddam Hussein harbored "Al Quaeda members". (also disproven). Excerpts from her speech were played just two weeks ago on the Sept. 23 edition of "Meet the Press". She's always stood by these statements, saying "she went with the info that she was told about then".

[paulk]

38. that doesn't show that she lied, as you claim, it shows that

she based her decisions on lies that were told her.

Most Americans also believed those lies at the time.

[Carrieyazel]

41. And why was she naive enough to "blindly" believe those lies? Shows no vision, lack of leadership

She repeated lies, and others knew these were lies and voted accordingly. Sen. Byrd, Sen. Graham, Sen. Feingold, Rep. Paul all knew these were lies. I thought she was supposed to be smarter than most Americans. She demonstrated her ignorance. She goes with the flow. Has no vision whatsover.

[paulk]

50. how could she "repeat lies" if she didn't know they were lies?

The reasons the people you name voted against the IWR differ greatly, and don't necessarily fit under the broad heading you have proposed.

I get that you don't like Hillary Clinton, but try making a coherent argument next time. That includes not moving the goal posts when the fallacies of your case are exposed.

[ariesgem]

28. ..

In 5 years, she went from beating the Iraq wars drums (with no discussion of the consequences) to - "Bush started the war. He escalated the war." Her positions are all over the map.

Is there a Clinton supporter here who can clarify her policy on Iraq (based on her quotes below) so that it makes sense to the rest of us? If I left something out, please add to it and provide a link.

October 2002: "I ended up voting for the resolution after carefully reviewing the information and intelligence that I had available, talking with people whose opinions I trusted, trying to discount political or other factors that I didn't believe should be in any way a part of this decision. And it is unfortunate that we are at the point of a potential military action to enforce the resolution. That is not my preference. It would be far preferable if we not only had legitimate cooperation from Saddam Hussein and a willingness on his part to disarm and to account for his chemical and biological storehouses, but if we had a much broader alliance and coalition."
http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=233783

...........

March 24, 2003: "I've never been one of those that thought this was going to be done in 24-48 hours as some people had suggested ... We just have to stand united and make sure our men and women in uniform know that we're behind them."
http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=235687

...........

June 2003: "I want to know, who were we relying on (for intelligence)? Who were the people giving us this information? Because this administration has taken a very aggressive posture. You know, they talk about preemption. Therefore, I'm concerned that when I'm given information, it is scrubbed and as accurate as it possibly can be, especially when I see an administration that is willing to go a little further perhaps to pursue what they view as appropriate means to achieve ends that I may or may not agree with."
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1300416

...........

November 2003: "The idea of giving our president authority to act in the global war against terrorism, if necessary in his opinion, against Saddam Hussein, was one I could support and I did so. In the last year, however, I have been first perplexed, then surprised, then amazed, and even outraged and always frustrated by the implementation of the authority given the president by this Congress ...

"I think now it is clear that, for a combination of reasons, the administration gilded the lily, engaged in hyperbole, took whatever small nugget of intelligence that existed and blew it up into a mountain, in order, I suppose, to make the case more strongly and convincingly to the American people

"There were some ... who said: 'Wait a minute. We are heading off in the wrong direction. We are jumping on the wrong horse.'

(:thumbsup: Obama)


"But for many of us, looking at the intelligence, being briefed continually about what the threats were, being told by the highest levels of our government in public and in private that we were facing an imminent threat, it certainly seemed like a bet on which nobody -- at least speaking for myself -- wished to be on the wrong side" of.
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getpage.cgi?position=all&page=S12827&dbname=2003_record

...........

Dec. 7, 2003: "I regret the way the president used the authority. I believe in presidential authority to deal with threats ... I have no second-guessing about giving the president authority ... What I do regret and what I think has been unfortunate is the way that that process was short-circuited and the military action was taken without any adequate understanding or planning about what the aftermath would be."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3660558/

...........

Dec. 15 2003: "I was one who supported giving President Bush the authority, if necessary, to use force against Saddam Hussein," she says. "I believe that that was the right vote. I have had many disputes and disagreements with the administration over how that authority has been used, but I stand by the vote to provide the authority because I think it was a necessary step in order to maximize the outcome that did occur in the Security Council with the unanimous vote to send in inspectors."
http://www.cfr.org/publication.html?id=6600

...........

April 2004: "I don't regret giving the president authority, because at the time it was in the context of weapons of mass destruction, grave threats to the United States, and clearly, Saddam Hussein had been a real problem for the international community for more than a decade. What I regret is the way the president used the authority."

"I believe strongly that after 9/11, we have to be prepared to take action to protect our country, to protect our friends and allies, American assets around the world ... Now that we're there, we're going to have to make the best of it. I think it could have been handled differently ... For the life of me, I don't understand how they had such an unrealistic view about what was going to happen."
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0404/20/lkl.00.html

...........

November 2005: "I voted for on the basis of the evidence presented by the administration, assurances they gave that they would first seek to resolve the issue of weapons of mass destruction peacefully through United Nations sponsored inspections, and the argument that the resolution was needed because Saddam Hussein never did anything to comply with his obligations that he was not forced to do," Clinton writes. "Their assurances turned out to be empty ones, as the administration refused repeated requests from the UN inspectors to finish their work. And the 'evidence' of weapons of mass destruction and links to al-Qaida turned out to be false.

"Based on the information that we have today, Congress never would have been asked to give the president authority to use force against Iraq. And if Congress had been asked, based on what we know now, we never would have agreed, given the lack of a long-term plan, paltry international support, the proven absence of weapons of mass destruction, and the reallocation of troops and resources that might have been used in Afghanistan to eliminate Bin Laden and al-Qaida, and fully uproot the Taliban ...

"I take responsibility for my vote, and I, along with a majority of Americans, expect the president and his administration to take responsibility for the false assurances, faulty evidence and mismanagement of the war."
http://www.clinton.senate.gov/issues/nationalsecurity/index.cfm?topic=iraqletter

...........

September 2006: "I can only look at what I knew at the time because I don't think you get do-overs in life. I think you have to take responsibility. And hopefully, learn from it and go forward. I regret very much the way the president used the authority he was given because I think he misled the Congress, and he misled the country."

"I understand that because certainly the feelings about Iraq are very raw and deep. And I share them. But I don't think that's responsible. And I've taken a lot of heat from my friends who have said, 'Please just, you know, throw in the towel and say let's get out by a date certain.' I don't think that's responsible, either. And it may be frustrating for some, but I don't think complicated situations in life or, frankly, in foreign policy and military affairs often lend themselves to answers that can be put into a sound bite."
http://hotlineblog.nationaljournal.com/archives/2006/09/hotline_after_d_83.html

...........

December 2006: "if we knew then what we know now, there wouldn't have been a vote -- and I certainly wouldn't have voted that way."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16766614/

...........

Feb. 2, 2007: "I want to be very clear about this: If I had been president in October 2002, I would not have started this war."
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2007/Hillary_heckled_at_DNC_0202.html

...........

June 2007: "I think it's important particularly to point out, this is George Bush's war -- he is responsible for the war." "He started the war. He escalated the war. And he refuses to end the war."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/byron-williams/its-not-just-george-bush_b_50867.html

[Andromeda]

29. Blah, blah, blah...

blah, blah, blah, blah, etc., etc., etc., :boring:

[Guaranteed]

30. Your vote was cowardice. There is no other explanation for

a VERY SUBSTANTIAL PERCENTAGE of your voting base understanding otherwise than you did.

Aren't you like a Rhodes Scholar or something?

Was there something you were told that didn't get on the "news?" that should necessitated our support for this bullshit?

[Guaranteed]

31. Your vote was cowardice. There is no other explanation for

a VERY SUBSTANTIAL PERCENTAGE of your voting base understanding otherwise than you did.

Aren't you like a Rhodes Scholar or something?

Was there something you were told that didn't get on the "news?" that should have necessitated our support for this bullshit?

[BootinUp]

34. The Levin Amendment

was not going to pass.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Milo_Bloom]

46. She still telling this lie?

She conveniently forgets that Iraq had ALREADY agreed to the return of the inspectors 3 weeks BEFORE the IWR vote.

The inspector argument is pure bunk for the uninformed.

[puffymuffins]

47. It's called "politics", not "lying"

And she's smrt enough to play the politics game using the same loose rules that the big boys use. An astute politician will never back herself into a corner. JMHO.

[maximusveritas]

49. And unlike this Obama's supposed "lie", this one was made to help herself, not others

The audacity of Hillary supporters to call Obama a liar for trying to provide cover for Hillary and others really bugs me. They really have no shame.

[Perry Logan]

53. Would the people who have never lied please raise their hands?

[rucky]

54. Let's set the bar even lower, shall we? n/t

[Imagevision]

55. A fact is a fact> Hillary Clinton voted against the Levin Amendment

which would have required the President to get a UN resolution before invading Iraq.