Obama addresses evangelical megachurch

[DeepModem Mom]

CNN: October 7, 2007
Obama addresses evangelical megachurch

GREENVILLE, South Carolina (CNN) - Sen. Barack Obama is increasingly invoking his Christian faith on the campaign trail, and on Sunday morning the Democratic presidential candidate will become a preacher of sorts by addressing an evangelical megachurch in Greenville.

Obama will speak to the Redemption World Outreach Center, which describes itself as "a Spirit-filled Church, characterized by dynamic worship, supernatural miracles, and relevant ministry for all ages...reaching people from all walks of life." Obama's campaign calls the appearance "an opportunity for the Senator to have a morning of fellowship with South Carolinians." The church has 4,200 seats. Members of the church said Sunday morning that they have a total congregation of over 10,000.

It's rare for Democratic candidates to venture to the traditionally conservative Upstate region of South Carolina, which is characterized politically by church-going Republican primary voters living in and around Greenville and Spartanburg. But Obama's visit here is not surprising given his campaign's recent efforts in South Carolina to reach out to Christian voters, including the state's large African-American population that makes up an estimated 50 percent of Democratic primary voters. The state campaign is in the midst of promoting Obama's values through a grassroots effort called "40 Days of Faith and Family," which is reaching out to primary voters through gospel concerts and a series of faith forums.

Last weekend, Obama attended but did not speak at two churches in Columbia, one predominantly black and one predominantly white. At a town hall meeting in Aiken on Saturday, Obama was introduced by a pastor who led the crowd of 2,400 in a brief prayer. There are times on the stump when Obama even sounds like a pastor himself, referencing New Testament phrases and sometimes saying "I'm not gonna preach to ya!" when emphasizing a point to his audience.

According to the religion web site Beliefnet and its "God-o-Meter" tool that measures "God-talk" in the presidential campaigns, Obama invokes religion more than any of his Democratic competitors....

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/

[Colobo]

1. Good. Take the message everywhere, Obama!

[cobalt1999]

2. I know politicians HAVE to pull out the faith card

However, after Bush, I've had enough religion mixed in with politics. Obama is my close second place pick, and this is off putting to me, but I understand why he's doing it.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

3. interesting

[LWolf]

4. If it's not ok for the preacher to preach politics from the pulpit,

and it's NOT ok,

why is it ok for a church to bring in political candidates to speak?

Where is the separation of church and state?

[beaconess]

5. It's perfectly legal for churches to allow candidates to speak

as long as the pastor does not endorse the candidate in the pulpit or the church does not endorse the candidate. Allowing a candidate to speak at their church is not the same as preaching politics from the pulpit. In fact, at least in the Baptist church, most preachers do not allow candidates (or any other non-clergy) to speak from the pulpit.

Churches are an excellent place for candidates to speak - it gives them a good opportunity to reach people. And many churches see it as part of their duty to the community to help provide their congregants with as much information as possible.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with this as long as the church does not endorse, exclude or urge their congregants to vote against any candidate.

[LWolf]

6. If the church does not invite all candidates

to speak, does that not infer an endorsement of those who were invited?

If the candidate does not visit every denomination, and every faith in the nation, does that not constitute a politician favoring one faith over another?

This just doesn't pass the test of separation, in my point of view.

[fedupfisherman]

7. Agree

I think it should be totally illegal for candidates to address religious groups

[LWolf]

8. I wonder how many Democrats

are willing to support eroding that wall of separation to maintain support for their chosen?

:(

[fedupfisherman]

9. You got me n/t

[beaconess]

10. Not necessarily

Who they invite may be based on a number of factors, including who the congregants have asked to hear from.

But in my experience - and I've worked a lot with churches in this regard - most churches who do this extend invitations to every candidate. They also tend to invite those candidates who are going to be in town for something else.

The separation of church and state does not mean that churchgoers can't hear from candidates, even in their own churches or that candidates are barred from talking to churches. In fact, it would severely tie candidates' hands and be an unfair burden on them to forbid them from speaking in churches.

My experience has also been that when candidates speak in churches, they usually don't give their political stump speech or say, "Vote for me because . . ." Instead, they tend to talk about where they stand on issues and, yes, their faith. Bill Clinton was a master at this and was and is a very popular guest in churches because he really connects with people (and he looks SO happy when the choir sings!)

I realize you may not agree, but this issue has been studied, analyzed and carefully scrutinized as a constitutional matter, and this kind of thing DOES pass constitutional muster. Where it crosses the line is where a pastor endorses a candidate from the pulpit or the church uses its resources to advocate on behalf of a candidate. But letting someone come in and speak does not violate the Establishment Clause.

This is a particular interest to the black community where the church has often historically been the center of political activism - partly because that was one of the few places that blacks could congregate without getting into trouble! But political activism in the church is fine, as long as it does not involve partisan political activity - for example, it's ok for the pastor to say, "Go out and vote next Tuesday!" but not "Go out and vote next Tuesday for candidate X!"

For example, at election time, black churches have always been an integral and critical part of the Get Out the Vote effort organized by Democratic campaigns. Churches give out voter/poll information, provide transportation to the polls, etc. This is perfectly acceptable activity.

[LWolf]

12. That's a well reasoned response.

I'll grant you your points,

but I'll have to say that it still raises the hair on the back of my neck. It violates, if not the Constitution, my personal placement of that wall.

It's good to know that most churches extend an invitation to all. It would be even better to know that they don't invite political campaigning during a religious service, but schedule them on days and at times regular services are not held.

[EffieBlack]

13. I understand your feelings, but candidates visiting churches can be a wonderful thing

For example, a couple of weeks before the 1992 election, then-Governor Bill Clinton visited a Baptist church in my town. I will never forget the pride and excitement, especially among many of the older members - most of whom had never seen a presidential candidate in person, much less a future president - that someone of such stature was in their church. It's unlikely that many of these people would have ever had the chance to see him or any other candidate had they not visited their church. Many of these folks were older people who couldn't get out much. Many of the younger people were working two or three jobs and just doing their best to survive. They didn't have time to go to political events or get involved in political campaigns. They were just trying to get through each day. But they went to church every Sunday - this was one of the very few outlets they had to do something other than struggle. Being able to see a presidential candidate at their church made a big difference to them. George H.W. Bush was invited, as well, but didn't come (not mad at him - there's only so many places a candidate can go on a visit to a city and Bush did visit another Baptist church during one of his trips there). But the fact that Bill Clinton made the effort to come to them meant the world.

Although he sometimes did speak at churches during that campaign, he didn't speak at this service - he and Hillary and several of their traveling campaign staff just sat in one of the pews. When it came time to acknowledge visitors, the Clintons stood up with the other visitors and introduced themselves - which cracked everyone up. And then the pastor said, "I tell my parishoners to vote, but I don't tell them who to vote for. But there's a good chance that we're all looking at the next President and First Lady of the United States. And if we are, they're going to need our prayers and support because that's a mighty burden to bear."

This church is one at which the congregants walk up to the altar to give their offering - at collection time, folks went to the altar and on their way back, just about every one of them stopped at Clinton's pew to lean over the Secret Service agent sitting on the aisle to shake his hand, hug him or just touch him.

I LIKE it when candidates visit churches. Sometimes they speak, sometimes they don't. But either way, I think it helps them connect with people they might not ordinarily get to see.

[LWolf]

14. I think visiting is different than giving campaign speeches.

I also think that there are plenty of non-religious places that candidates can visit to allow people to meet them. I certainly haven't attended any big dollar fundraisers for an opportunity to meet politicians. I've met them at private homes, in the park, and even in Starbucks.

Libraries would be great places, too. Senior centers.

Some candidates probably do these, as well.

For the record, I have NO issues with candidates attending services. I just don't want them to campaign there.

[beaconess]

16. I think we're on the same page - they shouldn't give campaign speeches

But I have no problem with them speaking about where they stand on issues or even how their faith informs their approach to public policy - which is different than giving a campaign stump speech.

This discussion reminds me of remarks Bill Clinton gave at Riverside Baptist Church in August of 2004:

"I will never forget a conversation I had in 1993 with the then-president of the Southern Baptist Convention -- a man I liked very much and whose sermons I still watch on television when I get a chance. He's a great pastor, but he belongs to the values voter crowd. He looked at me, and said, 'I just want an answer, not a political answer -- a straight yes or no answer -- do you believe the Bible is literally true or not?' And I said, 'Pastor, I think it is completely true, but I don’t believe you or I or anyone on earth is smart enough to understand it completely.'"
. . .
"My values compel me to be concerned about an economy with no new jobs, incomes going down poverty rising . . . I believe President Bush is a committed Christian. I believe that his faith in Jesus saved him. I believe it gave him new purpose and direction to his life. But that doesn't mean that he doesn't see through a glass darkly and know in part just like all the rest of us."
. . .
"Don't let somebody tell you're not a good Christian because your views on certain issues don't fit the party line of the values voter crowd. And remind them that all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory and that all of us see through a glass darkly and all of us know only in part."

Of course, Clinton wasn't running for anything at the time he gave these remarks, but these are typical of the kinds of speeches he gave at churches when he was a candidate and when he was president. I see nothing wrong with this kind of speaking in a church - in fact, I welcome it.

[beaconess]

15. Thanks . . . and I definitely hear you

But as Effie noted, Sunday service is often the only time that people will have a chance to see a candidate. In act, setting up a special event at the church for the candidate to speak might be even closer to violating the separation doctrine than letting them speak at a regular Sunday service.

But I certainly understand - and even share - your concern about crossing the line.

[Enrique]

11. this is good for all Dems

:toast: