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Hillary is part of the campaign of lies about Iran, just as she was about Iraq.

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 01:24 PM
Original message
Hillary is part of the campaign of lies about Iran, just as she was about Iraq.
Hillary's defence of her vote for the Lieberman Iran resolution is as indefensible as her excuses for her vote for the Iraq War Resolution. The point is that Hillary once again gave Bush the authority to do something, anything!

A bartender that served a drink to a clearly drunk patron, would be liable if that patron gets in his/her car and has a wreck killing an innocent person. The same can be said if you were to give the keys of your car to a drunk friend, only to see him/her crash the vehicle and cause a fatality. In both cases, we would say that the bartender and you, enabled the accident and tragedy that followed.

Hillary is enabling war by giving Bush the authority to do anything!

The only thing we can be certain about Hillary is that as President she will give us 4 more years of war!

Published on Monday, October 8, 2007 by CommonDreams.org

The Big Lie: ‘Iran Is a Threat’

by Scott Ritter


Iran has never manifested itself as a serious threat to the national security of the United States, or by extension as a security threat to global security. At the height of Iran’s “exportation of the Islamic Revolution” phase, in the mid-1980’s, the Islamic Republic demonstrated a less-than-impressive ability to project its power beyond the immediate borders of Iran, and even then this projection was limited to war-torn Lebanon.

Iranian military capability reached its modern peak in the late 1970’s, during the reign of Reza Shah Pahlevi. The combined effects of institutional distrust on the part of the theocrats who currently govern the Islamic Republic of Iran concerning the conventional military institutions, leading as it did to the decay of the military through inadequate funding and the creation of a competing paramilitary organization, the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Command (IRGC), and the disastrous impact of an eight-year conflict with Iraq, meant that Iran has never been able to build up conventional military power capable of significant regional power projection, let alone global power projection.

Where Iran has demonstrated the ability for global reach is in the spread of Shi’a Islamic fundamentalism, but even in this case the results have been mixed. Other than the expansive relations between Iran (via certain elements of the IRGC) and the Hezbollah movement in Lebanon, Iranian success stories when it comes to exporting the Islamic revolution are virtually non-existent. Indeed, the efforts on the part of the IRGC to export Islamic revolution abroad, especially into Europe and other western nations, have produced the opposite effect desired. Based upon observations made by former and current IRGC officers, it appears that those operatives chosen to spread the revolution in fact more often than not returned to Iran noting that peaceful coexistence with the West was not only possible but preferable to the exportation of Islamic fundamentalism. Many of these IRGC officers began to push for moderation of the part of the ruling theocrats in Iran, both in terms of interfacing with the west and domestic policies.

The concept of an inherent incompatibility between Iran, even when governed by a theocratic ruling class, and the United States is fundamentally flawed, especially from the perspective of Iran. The Iran of today seeks to integrate itself responsibly with the nations of the world, clumsily so in some instances, but in any case a far cry from the crude attempts to export Islamic revolution in the early 1980’s. The United States claims that Iran is a real and present danger to the security of the US and the entire world, and cites Iranian efforts to acquire nuclear technology, Iran’s continued support of Hezbollah in Lebanon, Iran’s “status” as a state supporter of terror, and Iranian interference into the internal affairs of Iraq and Afghanistan as the prime examples of how this threat manifests itself.

On every point, the case made against Iran collapses upon closer scrutiny. The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), mandated to investigate Iran’s nuclear programs, has concluded that there is no evidence that Iran is pursuing a nuclear weapons program. Furthermore, the IAEA has concluded that it is capable of monitoring the Iranian nuclear program to ensure that it does not deviate from the permitted nuclear energy program Iran states to be the exclusive objective of its endeavors. Iran’s support of the Hezbollah Party in Lebanon - Iranian protestors shown here supporting Hezbollah leader Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah during an anti-Israel rally - while a source of concern for the State of Israel, does not constitute a threat to American national security primarily because the support provided is primarily defensive in nature, designed to assist Hezbollah in deterring and repelling an Israeli assault of sovereign Lebanese territory. Similarly, the bulk of the data used by the United States to substantiate the claims that Iran is a state sponsor of terror is derived from the aforementioned support provided to Hezbollah. Other arguments presented are either grossly out of date (going back to the early 1980’s when Iran was in fact exporting Islamic fundamentalism) or unsubstantiated by fact.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/10/08/4404/


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Gravel2008 Donating Member (130 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
1. Sending this to the greatest page with my #5!
Hillary = WAR.
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Just-plain-Kathy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
35. Bush + Clinton + Bush + Clinton = corporate globalization ...n/t
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Amonester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #35
97. And (yes), Reagan (before all of 'em).
President Carter was the last "best of" U.S. presidents.

President Clinton did many good things, but sadly, many bad things too.

K&R.

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Jeroen Donating Member (608 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #35
117. True. Plain and simple. n/t
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denem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #117
178. Hogwash.
Promises about war aren't worth the paper they are written on. FDR swore blind he would keep the United States out of the "European War". After Pearl Harbor, the war in Europe was given first priority.

To take a statement, or a vote by any politician and come up with a "certain" prediction about how they will conduct themselves as Commander in Chief is beyond stupid. Triangulation anyone?
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
2. And yet, in this insane world
People accept that Iran is some kind of threat to the world.

*buzz* Wrong answer! There are 3 world superpowers, and Iran isn't one of them.
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smalll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. Exactly. Proliferation, shmoliferation.
:sarcasm:
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #13
121. El Baradei (sp) has said without caveat that Iran is not pursuing nuclear
weapons. This is not a proliferation issue - that is a lie, a WMD lie (remember them?) By trying to make this a proliferation issue, you and others are joining forces with Cheney/Bush to continue the murder, rape, arson, and robbery that has been going on for the last 5 years. This has got to stop. Any politician who supports these murderous lies must never be allowed in the White House - not again....
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ncabot22 Donating Member (425 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
3. Thanks for posting, IG
A kick and a recommend so more people can read it.
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Zandor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
4. Five recs within six minutes of being posted
and it hadn't even had a reply.

Hmmm.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. it's not a surprise
here at socialist/green underground
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. Yes, any DUer who has a problem with Hill is a socialist or a green...or maybe a Rethug
:eyes:

I really wish you guys would make up your minds.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #21
39. why it's mr. strawman himself!
the OP is a self avowed socialist.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #39
53. And what does that have to do with the merits of her argument?
(Don't worry, we all know the answer)
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #53
100. her arguments have no merit
is that the royal "we"?
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #100
104. Ugh...why do I even bother
:banghead:
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #104
122. The OP is SOCIALIST and Ritter is a CHILD MOLESTER!!!!!!!
RUN AWAYYYYYYYYYYY!
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Just-plain-Kathy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #21
40. Are you saying democratic leaders usually care about corporate America first?
I always thought democrats were for "the people" where republicans were for corporations.

...I'm a proud democrat who thinks Hillary will be given her presidency by the same people who gave "W" his.

...Big Business loves Hillary.
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asthmaticeog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #12
30. Go start your own "DLC Toady Underground" forum, then.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. I'm not a member of the DLC
as if I really give a flying fuck what you think.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #37
64. It's not an unreasonable assumption
Most left-wing or centrist Dems don't use "socialist" as an epithet.

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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #64
99. epithet?
???????????



another strawman.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #99
105. Sorry, was that big word too hard for you?
Edited on Tue Oct-09-07 12:45 AM by jgraz
ep·i·thet
–noun
1. any word or phrase applied to a person or thing to describe an actual or attributed quality: “Richard the Lion-Hearted” is an epithet of Richard I.
2. a characterizing word or phrase firmly associated with a person or thing and often used in place of an actual name, title, or the like, as “man's best friend” for “dog.”
3. a word, phrase, or expression used invectively as a term of abuse or contempt, to express hostility, etc.



Let me know if you need help understanding that definition. Once you figure it out, you should look up the definition of "strawman". :eyes:
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #105
157. I didn't use it as an epithet, I used it as a statement of fact
not as per definition 3, which is how I assumed you meant it.

the OP, once again, has professed numerous times on this website to being a socialist.

-------------


ps - you let me know when you're grown up enough to talk to people without denigrating their intelligence.

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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #157
159. You used it as an ad hominem to attack the poster
Do we need to review ad hominem?



ps - you let me know when you're grown up enough to talk to people without denigrating their intelligence.

If you actually show me some intelligence, I promise not to denigrate it.

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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #159
164. I don't feel a need to show you anything
if I had one iota of respect for the drivel you post on this board

day after day

maybe I would try a little harder, but you've shown me nothing

you think debating consists of snide little putdowns

you think it makes you look clever

what it really does is make you seem nothing more than a snot nosed little brat with a quick tongue.

grow up

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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #164
169. Well, I think knowing how to use punctuation makes me look a little bit clever...

At least more clever than some.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #169
174. here, you can just bang your head against a brick wall to save time.
:banghead: there you go :)
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #174
175. I tried, but actually banging my head against a real brick wall didn't hurt quite enough
So I decided to try having a conversation with e e cummings here.

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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #175
176. hey, if you enjoy having your intelligence and maturity insulted...
be my guest ;)
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #176
177. Nah, I can go to Religion/Theology for that
:P
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #177
188. and as an added bonus...you can be told you're going to hell/that you believe in fairy tales...
because there's no contest like a pissing contest.
:hi:
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #169
186. case in point
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #37
86. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #12
66. socialist/green underground?
here's the door. you may leave anytime.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #66
98. ooooh...
did I make you mad????????


:cry:
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #98
101. not at all. you're too comical to make me angry.
you say 'socialist' like it's a bad thing. since this website is cleary in the hands of greens and socialist, perhaps you would feel more comfortable on a different site.
just sayin' :P
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #101
153. the stated purpose of this website is to get Democrats elected
and if there are greens and socialists posting here with the intent of preventing that (and there are), then it is a "bad" thing.




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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #153
173. you called it 'socialist/green' underground, as if to imply that this website is in their hands.
keep fighting the good fight! them commie bastards don't die easy!
btw, not supporting hillary doesn't make you a socialist.
i support Edwards, Dodd, and Kucinich. When I'm not busy, you know, thinking evil socialist thoughts.
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bluetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #66
131. Elrond Hubbard? Are you actually a Scientologist? Are you actually a Clinton supporter?
If so, please, tell me why I should vote for your candidate with these blights on her record:

Do you agree with her YES vote on the Iraq War Resolution?

Do you agree with her YES vote on the Kyl-Lieberman Iran Amendment which names Iran's military a terrorist organization and, by proxy, gives Bush the authority to attack Iran as a "Terrorist Nation"/"Nation Harboring Terrorists"?

What do you make of her comments regarding "The Surge":

"I also made a full commitment to martial American power, resources and values in the global fight against these terrorists. That begins with ensuring that America does have the world's strongest and smartest military force. We've begun to change tactics in Iraq, and in some areas, particularly in Al Anbar province, it's working. We're just years too late changing our tactics. We can't ever let that happen again. We can't be fighting the last war. We have to be preparing to fight the new war."

What do you make of the fact that she co-sponsored the "Workplace Religious Freedom Act" which would allow pharmacists to have the legal right deny customers the ability to fill their prescriptions for contraceptives?

Do you agree with her proposed health care plan which would force every citizen to purchase insurance whether they can afford it or not while fattening the bank accounts of the insurance providers?

How do you feel about "The India Caucus" during which she made it clear that she supports the outsourcing of scarce American jobs?
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #131
172. Wow. You're barking up the wrong tree.
I don't support Hillary. At all. :hi:
Nor am I a $cientologi$t, but I enjoy mocking them and exposing their lies.
You have some good arguments, save them for Hillary's flunkies.
:)
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #12
138. Why beat around the bush? Just call us REDS or COMMIES!
How's that Red Dawn paranoia working out for you?
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #138
158. another long distance psychiatrist
I see...


you know, the world isn't black and white. It really isn't.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #158
163. So you were wrong when you said this was
"socialist/green underground," then? If the world isn't black & white, there's surely room in the big Democratic tent for leftist/progressive views, right?

Right?
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #163
165. I have no idea what you're talking about.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #165
180. It's pretty clear in the context of the sub-thread.
Either:
a. This is "socialist/green underground" because not everyone agrees to kowtow to HRH HRC, or
b. This is Democratic Underground, and the Democrats have a big enough tent to encompass leftist/progressive points of view,
c. Other (explain in detail).

I'm not in favor of a dualistic world view, myself, so I'd be delighted to hear your explanation of C.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #180
183. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #180
185. oh...
and here I thought the context of the subthread was you insulting me by calling me "paranoid" and insinuating that I was a right winger with your "red dawn" reference.

The OP of this thread is an avowed socialist who has a following of like minded folks, of both the green and or socialist persuasion, who's main purpose on this board, as I see it, is to trash Democrats at every opportunity. These "trashings" generally border on the absurd, IMHO, and don't fall under any category of criticism that I can recognize. YMMV.

The OP is not a member of the Democratic party, by her own admission, and I suspect a large number of those recommending this thread, and especially those recommending it before any comments are even made, aren't either. I even suspect that there is another website involved, a website whose name it is against the rules to mention, playing a part in garnering recommends for this thread.

So, in light of this, I don't consider your point B as valid.

Point A is not even worth considering, it's classic faulty logic.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #4
54. come on, you know you want to make a snide remark.
let's hear it. :hi:
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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #4
96. Yeah, and where's the beef?
I'm looking through all this looking for detailed information on what exactly Hillary did, and I don't see it. Lots of noise and not a lot of content.
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rAVES Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 06:31 AM
Response to Reply #96
111. Oh come on!! open your eyes...
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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #111
179. Oh THERE it is!!!
Thanks for all those links, rAVES. I feel so much more informed about the complaints on Hillary now... :P
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Nutmegger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #4
115. 1038 posts
Edited on Tue Oct-09-07 07:47 AM by Nutmegger
And still here. Hmmmm. :shrug:
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #115
181. It's taken them years to figure out the formula. (nt)
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #4
136. And you've been here HOW long that you know our posting patterns? (nt)
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
5. K&R and thank you Scott Ritter!!..and this is #1 reason i can not support Hillary. eom
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. The votes for the Lieberman Iran resolution put Iranian students in American bombers crosshairs
Iranian students call president "dictator" during scuffle
Source: Reuters


TEHRAN (Reuters) - More than 100 students scuffled with police and hardline supporters of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Monday on Tehran University campus and chanted "Death to the dictator" outside a hall where the Iranian president spoke.

"Revolutionary president, we support you," the hardline students shouted back, pushing and shoving those who were voicing opposition to Ahmadinejad, a Reuters witness said.

Liberal-minded students and academics have criticized the president for clamping down on dissent on Iranian campuses, although the president and his government insist they support free speech and welcome constructive opposition.

Monday's protest was the second rowdy reception Ahmadinejad has received at a university in less than a year. In December, students tried to disrupt his speech on another campus by hurling firecrackers, chanting and burning his picture.

REUTERS


LBN discussion:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3020424

Those that voted for the Iran bombing authority resolution pushed by the traitor Joe Lieberman, are putting these fine freedom loving students in the crosshairs of American bombers. I hope they realize the horrors they voted for!
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dickbearton Donating Member (577 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #14
61. Exactly, Joe Lieberman is a traitor and war criminal; and like the Criminal Bush, he should be hung
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. lieberman is the lowest form of scum, a traitor to country and party...
and it's all the more damning that any self-respecting dem votes on anything that that festering toad shits out.
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Submariner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
6. Hillary is an ex-repuke trying to prove to the mans world that she has balls
She should not be our nominee. Not because of her gender, but because of her republican-lite tendency to echo neocon talking points.
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
7. Did any of you read it before your knees jerked like crackhead Rockettes?
Edited on Mon Oct-08-07 01:40 PM by MethuenProgressive

However, if the United States chooses to implement its own unilateral national security objectives concerning regime change in Iran, there will most likely be a reaction from Iran which produces an exceedingly detrimental impact on the national security interests of the United States, including military, political and economic.
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TwilightZone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Interesting.
I've always thought that Iran posed a significantly larger threat than Iraq and thought we'd be nuts to bomb/invade them. More resources, more military, more money.

Though, in fairness, pretty much everyone posed a larger threat than Iraq.
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SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
44. Or in other words
if the US attacks Iran, Iran will react.
Not exactly news.

Solution: Don't bomb them.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #7
124. So? How do you interpret that?
I see it as "if we bomb them, they turn off the taps and oil will be $200/bbl and gas $10.00 at the pump."

Another GREAT reason to attack them, I guess.
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Frances Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
8. This is a serious question
I have never seen a pro-Democratic post by Indiana Green, so I am wondering: Why doesn't Indiana Green start a forum or a blog dedicated to the greens or some other independent group? From the responses to this question, I think that there would be an audience for that kind of thing.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. I suppose you don't consider Kucinich and Biden to be Democratic enough
I am an unabashed Dennis Kucinich supporter, and a johnny-come-lately Biden supporter.

I don't consider the DLC to be Democrats.
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Frances Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #10
24. Have you started any pro-Kucinich threads?
If so, I missed them.

As far as I can remember, I have only read your negative posts. If you have made positive comments, I apologize.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Yes, you missed them!
I posted many threads about Kucinich, including his many press releases when the Democratic leadersheep fumbles the ball by cave in to Bush.
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Frances Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Sorry I missed them.
I will look for them in the future.
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
11. K&R, Indiana! Ritter's piece is excellent!
:applause:
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
15. Hillary did not learn the first time the dog bit her.
Edited on Mon Oct-08-07 02:10 PM by AtomicKitten
Hillary punctuated her vote for war (the IWR) with a vote for more war (Kyl-Lieberman amendment).

I have said all along I will not reward any of those that voted yes on the IWR, and especially John Edwards who cosponsored it and rallied for it. It appears Hillary has transcended my contempt for that vote by repeating it.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. I have long held the view that many of those that voted for IWR did so because they agreed with...
I have long held the view that many of those that voted for IWR did so because they agreed with Bush's policy goals in the region, goals that were supported and shared by the Israeli government. How quickly have we forgotten about the flood of congratulatory messages from Democrats and Republicans that followed the fall of Baghdad. Not one of them said a word about how our nation became an aggressor state, in violation of international law, when we invaded Iraq.
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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #23
45. I agree. I never bought that, "We wuz deceived" bullshit.
If I knew there were no WMD before the invasion, they had to know it. cott Ritter was out there screaming to the high heavens that all of his weaponry had been destroyed in the early '90s. You had Colon Powell saying how disarmed Iraq was in early 2001. Many others who were in a position to know, and were speaking out. But nobody listened to any of them.

They voted for just what they wanted. War.

And if you thought you were dealing with a dishonest president on one war, why would you give him cover to do it again, unless that's what you want also.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #45
133. I hear ya and I totally
agree.

In October 2002, many here at DU did everything, including begging, to keep Dems from giving * authority to go to war via IWR.

We knew what was going to happen, we knew the neocons had a hard-on for war against Iraq, we knew it was about oil (Cheney's SECRET energy task force with maps of Iraqi oil fields). We knew Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and that after 12 years of sanctions, it was not an imminent threat and to state such was so illogical, such a blatant lie.

If we knew, all those bastards in Congress had to know, too. And to think we're walking down this same road again ...
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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #23
68. goals and implementation
Edited on Mon Oct-08-07 08:52 PM by GreenArrow
Members of both parties -- including Democratic Presidential candidates Clinton, Dodd, Biden and Edwards -- agreed with the policy goals Bush has pushed, if not the means he chose to implement them. At the end of the day however, it wasn't solely Bush's implementation of policy goals that was the driving force behind their votes; it was the pre-existence of certain long-standing, regional goals and interests, goals and interests adhered to by both parties, that commanded their support. The invasion was the way Bush et al chose to implement the policy, but the noxious policy mindset and worldview will continue to fester and create more problems down the road unless the country is willing to rethink it.

None of the leading candidates are; while they may make what they perceive as attractive noises about "ending the war," the toxic foreign policy mentality that created it will on live to work its evil another day. Hillary -- whom I will not vote for -- is at least more honest about the issue, and that's why she is going to win, because frankly, the American electorate, which may be sick of losing American boys and girls and treasure for this particular endeavour, has little issue with applying the same tactics and approach to other situations, as the case may be; the electorate understands there are "strategic interests" and knows that "Freedom isn't Free". The electorate is in sync with the foreign policy goals. The other candidates with their tepid anti-war rhetoric (and that's all it is: rhetoric) are every bit as co-opted and entwined in the tendrils of the mad policy mechanisms that virtually own them as Hillary is, but deem it wise to not be upfront about it. Their agreement need not be limited to foreign policy issues as well.

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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #23
107. Yup, helped along by the coup that took place in the Democratic party by the DLC centrists.
It is time for all good liberals to ring the bell of liberty and throw out the centrists.

The "DLC experiment" was a failure.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #15
89. Speaking of Edwards, what is his position
on the Kyl-Lieberman amendment? I haven't yet heard him address it; I very well may have missed it, though.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #89
91. he called hillary out on the carpet for it.
made it clear that it was a bad choice to give bush the opportunity to start another war.
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Pawel K Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
16. So your argument is...
that if a bartender serves a drunk person that bartender is then going to get on the road and kill someone drunk? You are not making any sense. I dislike Hillary with a passion, but I have a hard time playing in to this bullshit that if she were president she would go to war with Iran.
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Bitwit1234 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
17. Hot Damn!!!!!!! Hillary is now going to be blamed for everything
negative that has every happened in this country. Guess what..that finally takes Bill Clinton off the hook...you republicans ain't gonna like that. But why not just say Hillary and Bill blame em both. save time.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Trusting Bush on anything is a disqualifier for higher office.
Edited on Mon Oct-08-07 02:15 PM by IndianaGreen
If there is a lesson to be learned is that if you give Bush an inch, he'll take a mile, and he will get away with it because Pelosi won't impeach.

Bush will use the authority given to him by the Lieberman resolution as a pretext to bomb Iran under the guise of "protecting our troops." Thank you Congress for giving that murderous insane President the authority to live out another of his apocalyptic fantasies.

On edit:

Biden and Dodd voted against this travesty! Kudos to them, BOOOH to the others!
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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #18
42. Totally agree! As I've said before, a vote to give Bush any authority is
a colossal lapse of judgment - I wouldn't vote to give the asshole the authority to order lunch! With democrats like these - who needs the repukes!

Thankfully Biden and Dodd have some sense!
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #18
69. The way I read the resolution
Edited on Mon Oct-08-07 09:47 PM by creeksneakers2
Bush is only authorized to use force inside Iraq.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #69
73. In the aftermath of 9/11 Congress gave Bush the authority to go against terrorists anywhere
On the aftermath of 9/11 the Congress voted the President the authority to go after terrorist groups. By labeling a component of the Iranian government as a terrorist group, those that voted for the Lieberman amendment have given Bush the green light to bomb Iran under the pretext of protecting our troops in Iraq.
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #73
75. Here's the link
Force is only authorized against groups who took part in 9/11 or harbored those who did. Bush does not have the authority to attack any terrorist group anywhere on the planet.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RS22357.pdf
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #75
126. It didn't authorize an attack on Iraq, either, but look what happened.
Something I've come to understand, over the years. Criminals don't give a fuck about the law.
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #126
142. The attack on Iraq was authorized in a later vote.
I agree Bush doesn't care about the law. Bush claims that under the constitution he has the power to do anything he pleases. I'm just saying that's not Hillary's fault. Hillary didn't vote to give any powers other than powers she wanted him to have. Economic sanctions and military action INSIDE Iraq.

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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #142
154. And that later vote, (like this one) started with the premise that
Iraq was a legitimate target in the WoT - based largely on the anti-terror language of the Authorization of Force. Never mind that there was no connection to AQ - the key word is 'terror', just as it was in THIS vote.

All Bush needs to do is make it plausible to Joe Public and then point to the support he has from his 'opponants' to justify what he does. Give him an inch and he'll blow up the world.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #69
125. How YOU read it is immaterial.
The point is, how will BUSH read it (or have it read to him, as the case may be)?
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #18
134. Touche, Indiana
"Trusting Bush on ANYTHING is a disqualifier for higher office" should be a rallying cry, a bumper sticker, a MoveOn ad, etc. against all Repukes AND all Dem enablers!
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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #18
155. yet in post 23 above
you state:

I have long held the view that many of those that voted for IWR did so because they agreed with Bush's policy goals in the region, goals that were supported and shared by the Israeli government. How quickly have we forgotten about the flood of congratulatory messages from Democrats and Republicans that followed the fall of Baghdad. Not one of them said a word about how our nation became an aggressor state, in violation of international law, when we invaded Iraq.

So which is it? They trust Bush, or they agree with the underlying goals, if not necessarily the means?

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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Hey Bitwit, you aren't talking to Republicans here
Calling DUers Rethugs just because they point out facts about Hillary is frankly disgusting. Check back when you have something substantial to add to the discussion.
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Frances Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #19
27. Jgraz,
I have the same question for you that I have for Indiana Green. Have you started any positive threads or have you made any positive comments about specific Dems? If you have, I missed them.

If you have decided on a specific candidate to support, I would love to hear who it is and why you support that person.

In the meantime, criticism of a Dem candidate using words like "frankly disgusting" makes me think that you are more into emotionally charged phrases than rational discussion of an issue.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Like Uncle Ronnie said, let's only report the good news

Are we required to post a certain number of cheerleading threads on DU? I hadn't noticed that before.

And since you're also apprently having problems following my writing, I didn't criticize a Dem candidate, I criticized a poster. Calling out critics of your candidate as Republicans simply pours gas on the fire. Not helpful in the least.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #29
60. it's okay, jgraz...
that's their strongest type of argument. that's their ONLY type of argument.
how you doin?
:hi:
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #60
78. Hey Elrond
Doin fine here. Nice to see you're still around. :toast:
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. same to you
=)
usually in the lounge these days, but GD can be fun, too.
hey, wouldn't you be more at home at 'Socialist/Green Party Underground'??
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #27
127. Try some practice in reading critically.
The 'frankly disgusting' was about your argument, not about the candidate. Making that claim is frankly disgusting.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #17
33. They're the Democratic Party Leaders
So yes, when they have supported corporatist policies, I blame them. Duh.
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BrightKnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #17
34. LOL - Senator Clinton is the Devil!
Edited on Mon Oct-08-07 04:49 PM by BrightKnight
The more Clinton bashing you do the better the chance that Dennis will be President.

Clinton is the Devil!
Clinton is the Devil!
Clinton is the Devil!
Clinton is the Devil!
Clinton is the Devil!
Clinton is the Devil!
Clinton is the Devil!
Clinton is the Devil!
Clinton is the Devil!
Clinton is the Devil!
Clinton is the Devil!
Clinton is the Devil!

LOL
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Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #34
48. Not quite - but she IS the ANTICHRIST!
Edited on Mon Oct-08-07 07:17 PM by Seabiscuit
At least according to callers to Ed Schulz's radio straw poll of presidential candidates.

Enough of them ended their calls by saying "Hillary is the antichrist" that Schulz began changing his poll to "who's the antichrist" instead of who should win the nomination for president.

And here I thought Cheney was the antichrist.

Dennnis Kucinich, btw, won the straw poll with over 50% of the votes from callers. No one else came close to his numbers.
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Lucinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #48
65. No. It's Tony Blair. n/t
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Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #65
146. The poodle? Shrubbie's lap dog???
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Lucinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #146
190. That's the one.
He fits nicely into the tin foil hat version, now that he's doing the middle-eastern peace gig.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #17
56. i hope you weren't calling DUer's that disagree with you rethugs...
since that would be in poor taste as well as against du rules.
but nah, you wouldn't do that, right?
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Nimrod2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
20. Bravo...........nt
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
22. K&R, Bookmarked
Thanks for the post :thumbsup:
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
26. K&R! All her "experience" hasn't taught her a darn thing!
She voted to give Bush the authority to invade Iraq not thinking he'd use it, not reading the intel. available to her, and turning against it when it was no longer popular. She hasn't learned a THING! :eyes: My hunch is it's just more Clinton triangulation.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
31. Thanks. The liable bartender analogy is perfect.
Not just because Dumbya is an alcoholic. I'm sick and tired of getting this response when I criticize the Dems who voted for IWR: "It doesn't matter. Bush would have invaded Iraq anyway". It fucking DOES MATTER because they fucking knew better and rather than go on the record in opposition to what was obvious to anyone with half an attention span at the time was a march to war, THEY WILTED. And what did choosing political expediency over principle get them in return? Jack shit. And have they learned their lesson five years later? FUCK NO. Dumbya is a fascist murderer and every Dem who gives him the authority to do ANYTHING is a fascist enabler.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #31
135. rp, love your post and feel
exactly the same way! And the irony of the Dems collective wilting on IWR (among other things) is that they were/are still perceived as weak on national defense. And yes, it got them jack shit in those 2002 midterms and in 2004! HRC, for example is a war hawk who tries to have it both ways. But no matter how tough she plays or votes, if she gets the nomination (heaven forbid), the repukes will carpet bomb the sheeple with one simple ad:

Picture it: Hillary with the troops, the generals or both and a male voice-over dripping with ominous derision asking: Do You Trust HER With Our Military, With Our National Security ...

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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #135
162. Speaking of trying to have it both ways...
Time for a Prayer Circle
Clinton and Kerry launch an unlikely crusade for religious freedom at work
by Kristen Lombardi
April 1st, 2005 6:11 PM

A new bill co-sponsored by senators Hillary Clinton and John Kerry would seem, on the surface, the perfect chance to carry out the Democratic Party's fresh-minted strategy of getting religion. Supporters of the Workplace Religious Freedom Act say it would guarantee the right to religious expression on the job—whether that means a Sikh wearing a turban or an Orthodox Jew honoring the Sabbath. Its backers include a 40-strong coalition of leading clerics representing nearly every denomination—from Jewish to Catholic, Hindu, Muslim, and Seventh-Day Adventist.

Sounds straightforward, right?

The problem for Clinton and Kerry—two of the Democratic Party's biggest names and its most likely presidential candidates—is that a broad swath of their left-wing base thinks the bill is a backdoor means to curb individual rights, and has come out hard against it. Heavyweights like the American Civil Liberties Union, Planned Parenthood, and the Human Rights Campaign contend that, in practice, "workplace religious freedom" could allow a nurse to refuse to give the morning-after pill to a rape victim. Or it could allow a school counselor to proselytize on "sins of the homosexual lifestyle" to a gay teen.

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0514,lombardi,62680,6.html

So exactly what assurance do we have that she will appoint SCOTUS judges who will uphold Roe or even Griswold?
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
32. how anyone can support her is beyond me
then again, i was stunned that bush was ahem, eLected in 2004.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
36. K & R! nt
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AzDar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
38. Amen.
:kick:
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bbgrunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
41. when candidates walk, talk and ACT like a hawk, you gotta wonder why
people want to believe that they are doves.
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illinoisprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
43. The coverup and protecting of Hillary by the media is criminal when you
concider everything about this woman that has only come out the past couple months. here and there things come out and it's covered up right away.
Her Iran vote would have set off as large a discussion as Obama's big 'lapel pin' controversy has if it was anyone else but hillary.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. ABC World News Tonight with Charles Gibson had a segment on the Hillary Iran exchange
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #46
70. Bunch of lies about what she said
By Jake Tapper, a known right wing propagandist. He says Hillary "SEEMED" to say. She said nothing of the kind. Not even remotely like it.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
47. Happy to give this another k & r -- great article!
You know, it seems like every time Hillary supporters show up in a thread where people are laying out the case for NOT supporting Hillary, all they do is attack the posters. I never see them actually addressing the points being made -- nor making the case why anyone should support her.

Their "arguments" seem to be all ad hominens and strawmen and whining about how mean the opposition to Hillary is. It just gets absurd after awhile.

sw

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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
49. He was saying the same thing on Link Tv the other night
Link Tv and Free Speech TV ...my favorite channels. I highly recommend that you check them out. they report the news that the others won't.
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
50. The bartender analogy doesn't apply because
A bartender has a duty not to serve visibly intoxicated persons. What is the duty of a Senator? Their votes are the product of their own judgment and political realities. What looks to you like a duty to oppose a resolution looks to others like a duty to vote in favor. I'm not saying Iran will get a nuclear weapon, but hypothetically, if they did, would everybody who voted against the resolution be responsible for that? I'd say Iran would be responsible for the weapon and the Senators would be responsible for their judgment only.

I see no reason not to believe Hillary voted for the resolution in good conscience believing it would enhance US negotiating ability with Iran. Hillary had to weigh the need for negotiation strength against the possibilities of what Bush might do.

I believe everything Scott Ritter says about Iran but negotiations are still needed. Ritter cites the IAEA as the authority. This is from the last IAEA report:


Iran has provided the Agency with additional information and access needed to resolve a number of long outstanding issues, such as the scope and nature of past plutonium experiments;

Contrary to the decisions of the Security Council, calling on Iran to take certain confidence-building measures, Iran has not suspended its enrichment related activities, and is continuing with its construction of the heavy water reactor at Arak – "this is regrettable", he commented; and

While the Agency so far has been unable to verify certain important aspects relevant to the scope and nature of Iran´s nuclear programme, Iran and the Secretariat agreed last month on a work plan for resolving all outstanding verification issues.

Some negotiation is needed. The IAEA recommends a threat free environment but years have gone by without adequate cooperation from Iran.

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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #50
128. And yet, there is STILL no indication that this is anything but the
steps necessary to developing a peaceful nuclear capacity, which under the non-proliferation act they are entitled to do, and the Security Council has no right to demand they stop doing. There are scads of countries with exactly the same nuclear development that Iran is developing which have NOT produced nuclear weapons. Do we worry about the Brazillian bomb? The Japanese bomb?
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #128
144. Yes, we worry about Brazilian and Japanese bombs
Not as much as Iran though. I still suspect Iran because they are going through so much unnecessary trouble when all they'd have to do is submit to complete inspections.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #144
150. Do we? Please, show me a link, any link, from any time, going
hysterical about the idea of Brazil using their nuclear power program to develop a South American Bomb.

If ANYONE worries about it it is some 3rd level undersecretary buried in the depths of the State Department - you don't see sabre rattling and threats from the POTUS (unless, of course, that is the REAL reason for the land purchases in Paraguay).

I thought this was the reality-based community.
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #150
168. There is an international treaty governing nuclear activities
Signatory nations may develop nuclear power for peaceful purposes but must submit to oversight by the IAEA. The IAEA is part of the UN.

I didn't say Brazil or Japan raise the level of alarm Iran does.

I am saying that those countries are also monitored. I looked up Brazil and they've satisfied the IAEA. From the latest documents I can see, Iran has made great progress toward satisfying the IAEA but some smaller issues remain. At times in the past, Iran either threatened to cut off or cut off inspections. Diplomatic pressure is needed to keep Iran in compliance.

LINK FOR BRAZIL: http://www.iaea.org/Publications/Documents/Infcircs/2000/infcirc435m3.pdf
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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
51. What is this trying to prove?
Would you prefer Giuliani, Romney, McCain, Thompson, etc.?
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #51
112. that hiLLary shouLd not be president
that's a good counter though, since she's the onLy dem running.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #112
187. didn't you hear? she's already got the nomination.
you've got to be more up to date on your memes.
:P
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kenfrequed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #51
118. This is also a bad argument
It's either Hillary or a republican?

How much better is this kind of thinking than the people that will refuse to vote if Hillary takes the nomination?
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Zandor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
52. "Hillary is enabling war by giving Bush the authority to do anything!"
Huh?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #52
57. Here are John Edwards and Barack Obama on Hillary's enabling of Bush's wars
Obama:

"Senator Clinton obviously in 2002 voted to authorize the war in Iraq," Obama told ABC News' Sunlen Miller. "And her willingness to once again extend to the president the benefit of the doubt I think indicates that she hasn't fully learned some of the lessons that we saw back in 2002."

Edwards:

"You've got George Bush out there rattling his saber about going to war in Iran. The last thing we need to do is give that guy any authority on the first step to move forward. So, I do differ with Senator Clinton about this," said Edwards on The Ed Schultz Radio Show.

Link:

Obama and Edwards Target Clinton on Iran Vote

http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=3703898
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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #52
139. My sentiments exactly....
Hillary Clinton is being blamed for a vote by 100 Senators and 435 Congressmen. It's just sour grapes because she isn't perfect. But she is damn more perfect that what we've got now and the prospects the republicans are trotting in front of us. She's not my ideal candidate either, but we should save all the BASHING and personal destruction for republicans, not our own!

As I wondered above, is she worse than Romney, Giuliani, Thompson, McCain, etc?
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
55. I don't understand what "authority" she gave him. Please explain. nt
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. I suggest you read Jim Webb's speech against the resolution
or read the Scott Ritter article in the OP.

BTW, for those that don't remember, on the aftermath of 9/11 the Congress voted the President the authority to go after terrorist groups. By labeling a component of the Iranian government as a terrorist group, those that voted for the Lieberman amendment have given Bush the green light to bomb Iran under the pretext of protecting our troops in Iraq.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #59
62. exactly it. people don't seem to realize that this is all the justification bush needs to go to war.
enabling him is craven at best, downright evil at worst.
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #59
74. I don't think that's right
The only similar resolution I can find that was voted on after 9/11 gave Bush the authority to attack terrorist groups WHO TOOK PART IN 9/11. It wasn't a blanket authority to attack any group designated as terrorist.

The more I look at this, the more I see these arguments that Hillary gave Bush authority are without merit.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #74
76. Perhaps you missed Gen. Petraeus' interview in which he said Al-Qaeda was in Iran
Edited on Mon Oct-08-07 09:10 PM by IndianaGreen
and he hinted that they were collaborating with the Iranian Islamic militia (a bold faced lie IMHO). You can see how the good ass-kissing general will give credence to any rationale for bombing Iran.

BTW, the interview was shown on CNN yesterday.
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #76
80. Hillary didn't vote for General Patraeus
Edited on Mon Oct-08-07 09:50 PM by creeksneakers2
or a designation that Al Qaeda is in Iran. Hillary told Patraeus that his remarks required a willing suspension of disbelief.

Most of the uproar about Hillary's vote is based on the mistaken belief that Bush is statutorily authorized to attack any terrorist group anywhere. Do you agree that, seeing the link, this is not the case?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #80
81. It won't stop Bush at all! He is the pyromaniac that you gave a book of matches and a gas can
Bush can argue that he is going after Al-Qaeda and its many permutations. This is the reason why today we have combat troops in the Philippines. They are "helping" to rout Al-Qaeda linked insurgent groups. We have done the same thing in Yemen, and in Somalia, where we have provided military assistance to a group that is opposed to the Al-Qaeda "linked" Islamic Court government (now toppled by us).
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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #80
85. AUMF
Edited on Mon Oct-08-07 09:46 PM by Vattel
The 9-18-01 AUMF authorized Bush to attack any nation, group or person that "planned, authorized, committed, or aided the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons." So Creeksneakers is right that Iran's being designated as a terrorist nation doesn't authorize Bush to attack Iran. And if Iran is claimed to be harboring Al Qaeda, Bush doesn't need Iran to be designated as a terrorist nation to claim that he is authorized to attack. So Clinton's vote can't be construed as authorizing anything.
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #85
90. Welcome to DU!! n/t
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #80
137. yeah, and HRC's
IWR vote required a willing suspension of belief. Pot meet kettle.

* will do whatever he wants but go along enablers give him some degree of moral and political cover!
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #137
171. Cover could be looked at two ways
Bush will have a hard time persuading anybody that the resolution Hillary voted for was intended to give him the power to invade Iran. There was a previous resolution which members of Congress amended for the specific reason of making sure Bush wasn't granted the power to invade. So, if Bush later claims in court he's been given the authority he'll lose because the legislative intent is clear.

Bush lies without remorse and makes far fetched claims daily. I don't see this resolution as giving him cover other than what he can pretend it does when it doesn't. But if Bush wants to make up lies, he'll do so whether Hillary voted for a resolution or not.

I'm in no way saying you spread disinformation. There have been outbreaks of it on DU against Hillary. Most recently, false claims that Hillary called an audience member a plant and blew up at him were spread. I don't look at the regular doubts about Hillary as help to the right wing because exchanging doubts helps us come up with the best candidate in the end. I do however, think spreading misinformation about our candidates only helps the right wing. While Democrats are busy fighting over misinformation, the right wing gets cover because they can get away with so much in the meanwhile.

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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #74
129. By claiming that all the attacks on US forces are from Al-Queda,
and that Iran is supplying terrorists with IEDs, they are saying that Iran is backing Al-Queda, thereby making Iran a legitimate target.

We may KNOW that Iran and AQ are deadly enemies, but then we knew that Saddam and AQ were also deadly enemies, and they still made THAT link. In exactly the same way.

All they have to do is make assertions, claiming intelligence that we don't have access to, and go to war based on those assertions. Just like Iraq.

One of those assertions is that the Iranian Revolutionary Guard and its Qud Force are terrorist organizations. Which Hillary agreed with.

As I said above, what WE believe the law says is immaterial. What matters is what BUSH says the law is, how HE interprets it. Our leaders cannot allow any possiblility of misinterpretation.
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #129
145. I haven't heard anybody say Iran is behind Al Qaeda
If they do say it, its not Hillary's fault. She didn't say it or vote for it.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #145
148. In Iran they just call the terrorists the Revolutionary Guard Corps.
Same trumped up boogeyman only with a different mask. :shrug:
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
58. good article. k&r...
and here's the donkey... :kick: :kick: and he brought a friend.
the kyl-leiberman amendment ensured not only that i would not vote for hillary in the primary, but also that i would have great difficulty bringing myself to vote for her in the general election. ugh.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
67. This is all about oil and Hillary is owned by the military industrial and health care corporations
Edited on Mon Oct-08-07 08:42 PM by L0oniX
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
71. EXACTLY! Well said, Indiana Green. Your analogies are perfect.
I wish the media would give off their complicit asses and call a spade a spade.
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WileEcoyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
72. I disagree
It is my belief that Hillary is playing the corporate power structure enough to get herself elected. Taking them for a ride now only to tell them to piss off later. So i hope anyway.

After all she was an early pioneer of national health care. She knows the difference between right and wrong even if she makes the incorrect decisions for political reasons.

Don't get me wrong: I disapprove of her votes at times. I just believe that she is skillfully playing a game in order to consolidate her power before ripping off the corporate multi national structure and turning the system on it's ass.

There can't be any other reason for her making the described ill founded nonsensical decisions.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #72
77. Don't hold your breath.
Why would she betray her bread and butter?
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WileEcoyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #77
87. Coercion and extrortion used against her
There is no doubt that Hillary has made some kind of a deal with the devil. We just know the terms she received. Not yet anyway.

My guess is that she skillfully got herself a better contract than her husband did.

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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #87
88. used against her? she gleefully does their bidding.
i might be wrong, but my gut tells me i'm right.
we'll just have to wait and see what her true colors are.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #72
93. Hmph, in my experience (50+ yrs) it's FAR more common for a candidate
to talk left and govern right than the other way around.

In fact, come to think of it, I can't recall any presidential candidate who talked like a right winger then turning around and governing like a left winger.

"Early pioneer of national health care" my ass! If she had proposed single payer and insisted on it, then we might have ended up with at least a hybrid program as a compromise. A person may have to compromise eventually, but starting out with a proposal that you imagine the other side will accept instead of starting out with what you really want is a sign of weakness, and the Republicanites sensed it.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #93
95. i think what we have there is a case of wishful thinking...
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #93
103. Exactly. If you want to sell your used car for $5000, but would accept $3000--
--you obviously start out by asking for $5000. Always, always keep asking for the pony, even it you'll eventually accept a kitten.
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #93
156. FDR ran much further to the right
than he governed. So did LBJ to some extent, but he only had a super right wing loon to beat in the general election. But don't hold your breath for the second coming of FDR in the form of Hillary Clinton. After all, her husband ran as a progressive and governed to the right of Richard Nixon.
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kenfrequed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #72
120. Why waste hope?
It is such a precious commidity. I don't really see the point to trusting someone to take all of their money only to turn on them. How often has this ever happened in the history of politics?

I think if you look at her history I don't see any bucking of the system going on. The only way you could arrive at this conclusion is if you actually believe the republican rantings against how 'socialist' she supposedly is.
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Gonnuts Donating Member (525 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #72
141. So the Truth means nothing ...
Yes it is true that corporations run this country and place those that would do their bidding in power. And with that knowledge we know we don't live in a democratic/republic and our elections are nothing but a farce giving "we the people" the illusion we have a say in policy.

So Hillary has to "play along" to get elected and hide the truth of her true intentions until she gets elected, then she's going to transform America into the Emerald City of freedom and free health care and peace!

Wrong. You don't lie to get to the truth. You just tell the truth. And the truth is the Democratic Party is the left wing of the Republican Party and they're both owned by the corporations and "we the people" are nothing more than consumers and cannon fodder for the Warrior Nation we are. You're living in the lie if you think we're anything else. You don't have troops in 149 countries and call yourself a "peaceful Nation".

The war will continue and we will expand and they'll find others to fight, not because we're spreading "freedom", but because there's money in it. Lots and lots of money. It's also the reason we'll never see National Health Care, or any other reform that isn't funneling all the money to the top 1% of the elite that aren't satisfied with what they already have, which is you, me and Hillary in their prison of no walls.

Corporations are not democratic institutions and they run the show. If you want change, quit buying their products. That will get us there faster than any phony election.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #141
152. Well put,
and welcome to DU.

I fear it will be a bumpy ride for you.
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Baby Snooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
82. But she will be the nominee...
And everyone will be expected to vote for her. So does any of this matter? No. Not really. Because everyone will vote for her.

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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. And Rudy will be the Rethug nomine, and will lose when the Christian Reich abandons him.
Handing Hillary victory, and pleasing our masters in the Corporate media and Corporate America.
It has already been written.
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Baby Snooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #83
106. Ross Perot
They will run their own candidate the way they ran Ross Perot in 1992. To ensure a Clinton victory. Do you really think George HW Bush was really that upset by the upset? The agenda was more important than the office. And if that doesn't work, well, there's always the e-machines. I doubt the Democrats will ask for a recount if Hillary wins.

We are no longer a democracy. That is just the reality. A reality made quite clear by Madame Speaker.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #82
84. Let me show what will matter during the Clinton 44 Administration
March 2009 - Antiwar demonstrations on the 6th anniversary of the invasion of Iraq.

October 2009 - Antiwar demonstrations on the 7th anniversary of IWR.

March 2010 - Antiwar demonstrations on the 7th anniversary of the invasion of Iraq.

October 2010 - Antiwar demonstrations on the 8th anniversary of IWR.

March 2011 - Antiwar demonstrations on the 8th anniversary of the invasion of Iraq.

October 2011 - Antiwar demonstrations on the 9th anniversary of IWR.

March 2012 - Antiwar demonstrations on the 9th anniversary of the invasion of Iraq.

October 2012 - Antiwar demonstrations on the 10th anniversary of IWR.
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illinoisprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
92. Baby S, not everyone will follow the expected line of voting for her.
many of us reject her and will not give her our vote. many take a stand on principle. I don't watch those polls as we all know they are incorrect.
The media obsesses over them to justify their own obsession with a male first lady.
That is why they are trashing and destroying other candidates and gushing over her and covering up her crimes.
We don't have to allow this to happen.
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jeff30997 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
94. Hillarious will be your next Pretzeldent.
Sad but true.
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #94
102. could be worse
Edited on Mon Oct-08-07 11:03 PM by provis99
Hillary could be like Stephen Harper. Dont ya think the Canadians will give him a majority government in a fall election? Don't be so snide when you guys elected Mulroney-lite, a Bush ass-kisser, to lead your country.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #102
132. That didn't sound snide to me.
Merely regretful.

We used to be a country others looked up to.
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RiverStone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:42 AM
Response to Original message
108. And will the Iran war apologists say 3 years from now?
Hillary could not be more transparent - pandering to the right.
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cleveramerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:54 AM
Response to Original message
109. Does anybody doubt for a second....
That if Iraq had turned out differently that HRC would be taking victory laps on the campaign trail right now?
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 06:58 AM
Response to Reply #109
113. Exactly so and well said
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mwb970 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 05:18 AM
Response to Original message
110. Since Democrats can't stand Hillary, why is she ahead in the polls?
Reading this or any of the other we-hate-Hillary threads on DU makes it seem as if she is despised on DU as much as any Republican. Yet, when I watch the news, she is always on top in every poll of Democrats, recently by increasing margins.

Why is there such a huge disconnect between Democratic voters and the Democratic Underground?
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #110
119. Some possibilities, not necessarily mutually exclusive:
1. The mass media act as if Cilnton and Obama are the "frontrunners." This is not on the basis of their policies or on the basis of having won even one primary. It's strictly on the basis of having raised the most money, especially from corporate donors. Corporate money is the official seal of approval as far as the MSM (all owned by the same few corporate conglomerates), so those are the candidates they push, with Edwards as a fall-back position, in case one of their anointed "frontrunners" takes a serious tumble.

Meanwhile, the MSM continue to treat the primaries as a horse race rather than as a serious discussion of this country's future. Historians in later decades and centuries (if the human race survives that long) will marvel at the irresponsibility of the MSM at this critical time for America and for the human race.

2. Most people are not political junkies and get most of their news from the MSM, so they don't even know who is running besides Clinton, Obama, and Edwards. When polled, people tend to pick the candidates they've heard of rather than the ones they haven't heard of. There was a time when Joe Lieberman was the "frontrunner" for the 2004 nomination, stricly on the basis of name recognition.

3. There have been reports by DU posters of being polled with the "minor" candidates not listed as an option.

In talking to politically aware people, I have found exactly ONE person here in blue Minnesota who is a Cilnton fan. I have seen NO Hillary bumper stickers, but lots of Obama and Edwards bumperstickers, even a few for Kucinich (who wno 27% in Minneapolis in 2004).

I have to come to the conclusion that the MSM are trying to choose our candidates for us, the ones who would be most acceptable to the military-industrial complex.
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kenfrequed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #119
123. Hmm
Kucinich is even more popular here than he was in 2004. I expect he will be a contender!
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bluetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #123
130. With the exception of one person I know, everyone I know who agrees with everything he stands for
and some who just agree with most of what he stands for have expressed to me that they won't vote for him because "he'll never win". I have tried to explain to them that, yes, certainly, if his supporters refuse to vote for him because they're buying the Murdoch meme that he "can't win", he won't win. But I don't feel like anyone is really listening. And it's really frustrating and kind of insane that people would prefer to vote for a candidate they don't trust and who doesn't represent any of their values because they are told That's The Winner instead of the candidate who really does resonate with them and who has a track record of ...being an honest guy who says what he means and votes accordingly. It's really making my head explode.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #130
166. That means they're "other directed" instead of "inner directed"
They won't proclaim a position unless they've checked to see whether it's popular or not.
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BrightKnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #119
143. or perhaps many DU posters are political fundamentalist purists
) A lot of people here are not primarily concerned with actually getting a Democrat in the Whitehouse. They are more interested in their pure and perfect pipe dreams.

There was a huge difference between the Clinton and Bush administrations but some have deluded themselves that there was not. Some have said with a strait face that they were exactly the same. A lot of Bush's strongest critics came out of the Clinton administration.

) Senator Clinton is the front runner and there are a lot of frustrated activists and supports in the other campaigns. Bashing Senator Clinton won't solve the problem but it makes them feel a lot better. Some might actually believe that if they bash Senator Clinton to death that everyone will suddenly vote for Dennis.

) The MSM is the MSM and it will continue to be the MSM even after the election. Welcome to the world of political reality.

Most people wouldn't vote for Dennis even if the MSM were pushing him. His target audience is the left radio listening base. He does not try to reach a general audience. The MSM might give him a diminutive pat on the head if they are feeling generous.

Edwards is a great guy and capable of reaching a broad audience. He doesn't look as confident and strong as he needs to be on TV (That is why a supported Kerry). Also, he had to move too far left to be viable in the general election. Most voters will not buy his current message. The MSM won't sell his current message.

) Self defeating politics is essential to being a Democrat. It is what has made the Party what it is today.

) Perhaps there are some freepers around here trying to inflame divisions.

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #143
167. Ending Iraq war, preventing Iran war, ending torture, closing down Bush's gulag are core issues
We are not any safer with a Democratic President than we are with a Republican President if that Democratic President wants to keep for himself/herself the powers that Bush has usurp at the expense of the Constitution and our civil liberties.

The Constitution and the Republic are paramount! All other issues are secondary!
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BrightKnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #167
170. LOL - Yeah the Clinton administration was full of hawks. Albright is evil!
Edited on Tue Oct-09-07 05:18 PM by BrightKnight
You know that they were behind that Clark guy. I wouldn't trust him. He was in the military.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #170
193. Yes, the Clinton administration WAS full of hawks
Clinton continued Bush Sr.'s policy of bombing Iraq.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #110
140. Have you not learned
you cannot trust the MSM?!

Have you been polled? I'm an >50 lifelong Dem. My family and friends are Dems -- yellow dog Dems. None of us have been polled, ever.

There's your disconnect.
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Voltaire99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 07:38 AM
Response to Original message
114. Hillaryism = Sugarcoated Bushism
Barely sugarcoated, at that.

Glad to see you're still causing trouble for two-faced corporate warmakers, Indiana.
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Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #114
149. Bush with a cackle, not a smirk.
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BrightKnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #114
151. BULLSHIT!! - Many of Bush's strongest critics came from the Clinton administration.
Edited on Tue Oct-09-07 12:48 PM by BrightKnight
The Clinton administration's environment, social and foreign policy agendas could not have been more different.
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Nutmegger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 07:50 AM
Response to Original message
116. R&K #105!!!
:thumbsup::kick:
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
147. ibtl
:kick: R
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #147
191. Good for you DU!
I didn't think that this OP would last. Super cool to have discussions...

peace and low stress
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
160. So sick of voting for the lesser of 2 evils.This time electability is not an issue
Dems will win the WH by default so this is the one time that we don't have to compromise on our candidate. Whomever wins the democratic nomination will be the next president so let's nominate who we want for president...not just who we think will win. Kucinich is the man who is right on all the issues. Time to support him full-tilt-bozo.

Kucinich/Edwards '08...the truth ticket...the real change.

Kucinich has been doing just the opposite of Hillary and the others and condemning Cheney and Bush for threatening Iran...calling them out on their war rhetoric provoking Iran.

Pelosi is more to blame for encouraging war with Iran than Hillary. She has been an obstructionist refusing to hold Bush/Cheney accountable by impeaching them...plus she continues to allow war funding measures to come to the floor for a vote to continue funding the war...another $50 billion has been added by the WH which will be used to cover the initial costs of attacking Iran. Pelosi will not even try to use the tools at her disposal to stop the Bush regime.

It's so maddening that if a presidential contender said.."vote for me because if I'm elected my first day in office I will execute Bush/Cheney for war crimes"...hell, I'd vote for 'em, and I'm not alone. There is more than enough evidence out there already to impeach, indict and imprison...and that is what we already know. With a special impeachment investigator and prosecutor an overwhelming amount of evidence would surface. Pelosi will not allow it

The car crash analogy about the bartender and the drunk who crashes into a victim causing death holds no water if the police are told to forget about it..the incident is off the table.

Makes we wonder how Pelosi ever got to be Speaker of the House when it is virtually inconceivable to imagine her as president. Just saying...
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BrightKnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #160
161. The election fairy is going to give everyone a pony and make Dennis President?
All he has to do is get the nomination and everyone in America will vote for him by default. All of this time I have been over thinking it. Thanks for clearing that up for me. I feel so much better now.

I agree that impeaching Chimpy is a great idea. How many repug votes do you have?

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Adenoid_Hynkel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
182. Don't worry-she'll just play dumb in afew years
and claim she didnt know it was a vote for war, just like she does now with Iraq - and the Clinton-worshippers will fall for it hook, line and sinker
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TeamJordan23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #182
189. Yeah, she has such a shameful response for her Iraq vote. nm
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MGKrebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
184. Holocaust denier = "(clumsily) seeks to integrate itself responsibly with the nations of the world"?
OK Scott. Your 15 minutes are up.
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Clintonista2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
192. The sky is falling!! The sky is falling!!!!
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-11-07 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #192
194. it fell a long time ago my friend
we are all neocons now
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