The "corporatist" candidate is rated 100% progressive in "corporate subsidies"

[TwilightZone]

by Progressive Punch. The "corporatist" candidate, of course, is Hillary Clinton. One of them, anyway, according to DU.

That 100% ties her (obviously) for most progressive member of the Senate in that category.

She's rated as the 11th most progressive Senator in the "Government Checks on Corporate Power" category, rated at 94% progressive.

Overall, she's ranked as the 14th most progressive member of the Senate, at 92% progressive.

Source: http://progressivepunch.com/members.jsp?member=NYI&district=At%20large&issue=S0

Curious. Many on DU claim that she's a corporatist and/or a Republican. Her record would seem to disagree.

[depakid]

1. As has been mentioned before- a better measure

against many of the no-brainer type votes that came up in the Republican Senate are based on the policies of the previous administration- particularly with respect to policy at the administrative agencies, but also with respect to legislation affecting media consolidation, financial deregulation, NAFTA, and many others.

As was said at the time, "two for the price of one," and I don't imagine that has changed very much.

[aquart]

5. See, you gotta be careful with the tar on that brush.

To most Americans the Clinton administration is beginning to look like paradise.

But go ahead and see if it works for you.

[depakid]

7. How'd that media deregulation thing work out

both for ordinary Americans- and for the party.

Nicely, eh? Your cable bill went down and we got more diversity in programming?

and before I forget- how'd that Enron & Worldcom thing work out?

Just because the Bushes were a nightmare beyond all proportion doesn't mean people should accept a return to the same dysfunctional policies that brought us here.

[ThomCat]

9. And the tech bubble

and we knew about the real estate bubble that far back too. We all benefited immensely from allowing those bubbles to expand unchecked.

And welfare "reform"

And NAFTA.

Lots more good stuff came from the Clinton administration we should all be in a hurry to go back to. x(

[TwilightZone]

11. Somewhat off-topic: why does Gore seem to get a pass on NAFTA?

Clinton gets a lot of (deserved) criticism for NAFTA, yet the memory of the debate most people have is Gore and Perot on Larry King.

[ThomCat]

13. That is a damned good question.

I don't have an answer for that.

[TwilightZone]

16. Nor do I.

I really like Gore and would support his candidacy should he decide to run, but I find it interesting that he rarely seems to be mentioned in the NAFTA criticism on DU.

Hmm, sounds like a thread idea....

[rinsd]

14. self delete

[depakid]

17. He didn't get a pass in 2000

or from many in 1996.

My bet is that his views have changed after seeing the results- but the question surely does get raised:

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0719-32.htm

[rinsd]

12. Yeah fewest people below poverty line in 35 years.

Crime at its lowest levels in decades.

A budget surplus and record debt pay down.

The birth of the SCHIP program.

Lower interest rates and inflation.

Medicare changed from becoming insolvent at the end of his term to lasting until the middle of this century.

What a horrible horrible time to live in...

:eyes:

[ThomCat]

15. Right,

with none of that surplus spent on maintaining or rebuilding our national infrastructure. That worked out real well for us.

And interest rates and inflation were managed by Greenspan for the benefit of corporations, and to inflate the lending bubble. That worked out so well for us too.

And while crime was declining we increased our incarceration rates, incarcerated a larger percentage of our population than any other industrialized nation, and built record numbers of prisons.

What a wonderful time to live in for so many people. :eyes:

[rinsd]

18. Debt pay down was a more important priority given the Reagan era deficits

"And interest rates and inflation were managed by Greenspan for the benefit of corporations, and to inflate the lending bubble. That worked out so well for us too."

And yet millions saved on their debt payback.

"And while crime was declining we increased our incarceration rates, incarcerated a larger percentage of our population than any other industrialized nation, and built record numbers of prisons."

Crime decline coincided with economic prosperity. I wasn't crazy about the Clinton approach to the WoD.

But by all means let the perfect be the enemy of the good, exactly the mentality that gave Bush in the White House.

[ThomCat]

20. I don't think the perfect should be the enemy of the good.

But I also don't like the pro-clinton approach that "good enough" should be all we shoot for. I also don't think "good enough" should be worshipped as if it were the glory days.

People who put the Clintons up on a pedestal are an obstacle to actually doing anything productive, because they justify the whole idea that "good enough" is enough.

[depakid]

19. I have news- the Gini coefficient maintained a steady rise

That's income disparity, btw.

And real wages continued to fall.

Much of the paper wealth created during that time turned out to be illusory.

[rinsd]

21. A rising tide floats all boats.....

Part of the problem actually was Clinton's raise on income taxs which saw corporations use stock options as compensation as a means of avoiding the higher tax. Combine that with an exploding stock market and whammo.

[ThomCat]

24. Except that rising tide didn't lift all boats.

Everyone who invested in the tech bubble sank. Anyone who bought homes or refinanced and got sucked into the real estate bubble sank. Anyone had to drop out of college because public assistance no longer allowed that as an option sank.

Everyone who's income stagnated didn't quite sink, but definitely didn't rise either.

The investing class who avoided the tech bubble are the only boats that really got a rise out of the Clinton economy.

[rinsd]

35. Anyone who bought or refi-ed during the Clinton years is laughing all the way to the bank

Its those who bought with in the last 3 years that are having problems.

"Anyone had to drop out of college because public assistance no longer allowed that as an option san"

Umm Clinton sought tax reductions for colleges and increased Pell grants.

[depakid]

25. Curiously, JFK employed that phrase to justify his tax cuts

And it also serve us well to bear in mind that an increase in GDP does not necessarily increase many groups of individuals' wealth- much less the overall wealth of a nation.

Indeed, GDP can and has risen while much of the nation and its tangible production capacity has grown poorer.

[TwilightZone]

29. Massive profits by oil companies and military contractors, for example.

We keep hearing about how the economy is growing, etc., but that growth seems most apparent in those two industries, and perhaps isolated to them. Obviously, this "growth" isn't indicative of overall national fiscal health.

[TwilightZone]

8. If the votes were "no-brainers"...

why aren't all Democrats rated that highly? Kucinich is about the only other person running who is anywhere near Hillary's ratings in those categories.

[depakid]

59. Run the votes down

See for yourself.

[aquart]

2. Yeah. They're lying. Mostly to themselves, but also to others.

They don't really hate that she's a "corporatist," which she isn't. They hate that she's an uppity she. But they can't say so. Well, I AM saying so.

[sufrommich]

4. Thank you.

[redqueen]

10. Not true. I don't "hate" that she's a she.

I am worried that the trend toward corporate rule will not be so much reversed as just slowed down... a little.

I really hope I'm wrong. And I will vote for her if she gets the nod. And I don't think she's the devil, or Rove in drag, or any such nonsense.

:hi:

[ThomCat]

26. You keep implying that everyone who doesn't cheerlead for HRC

is a misogynist.

I'm one of the active feminists posting here. I assure you that her being female has nothing to do with my reasons for thinking she's the least of our candidates.

I agree that there is almost certainly some opposition to her based on sexism, but I also think you're using that as a convenient excuse to tar everyone who disagrees with you.

You should be happy people disagree with you. You only ever write angry posts that attack people. If nobody ever disagreed with you then you'd never have anything to say.

[TwilightZone]

27. I'm not sure that it's lying. Perhaps it's selective interpretation.

People see what they want to see. Personally, I'm just trying to figure out the apparent disconnect between DU's interpretation of Hillary as "corporatist" and why that seems to be the polar opposite of the one at Progressive Punch.

Convenience, interpretation, wishful thinking, who knows?

[ThomCat]

30. Wishful thinking on whose part?

She supported bankrupsy "reform."
She support "free trade."
She supports expanding visas to outsource jobs.
She has Robert Rubin as her economic advisor.
She's got the approval of all the big money on Wall Street.
She's the candidate on the cover of Fortune magazine.
And there's lots of other good reasons up and down this thread for considering her corporatist.

Some organization gives her a rating and we're supposed to ignore this stuff?

[Larkspur]

3. Hillary's 100% supportive of outsourcing good paying jobs to India

[aquart]

6. Links? Quotes?

Come on, work for your smear.

[antigop]

22. She is a corporatist -- watch these videos

Hillary Clinton Pushes For More H1B Visas and outsourcing
http://youtube.com/watch?v=UhLBSLLIhUs

Lou Dobbs: Hillary Clinton's Hypocrisy (Part 1)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=cLNOSGM2jK4

Lou Dobbs: Hillary Clinton's Hypocrisy (Part 2)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jgdrh2Bc95M

I'm sending these to everyone I know.

[ThomCat]

28. Come on. You know that most HRC supporters ignore evidence

and only cherry pick what they choose to see.

[TwilightZone]

32. Actually, I don't have a firm candidate yet.

My preferred candidate (Wes Clark) isn't running, and although he's backing Hillary, I'm not yet jumping on her bandwagon.

The reason for this thread was that I just find it bizarre that the conventional wisdom at DU is that Hillary is the ultimate corporate candidate, yet another progressive organization says that she isn't. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

As for "evidence", should I believe Lou Dobbs (who is alternatively loved and detested on a daily basis at DU, depending on the topic he's covering) over Progressive Punch's analysis of Hillary's voting record?

Personally, I'll try to look at all of the evidence and not just that which happens to agree with my preconceptions.

[antigop]

36. Oh, good grief! It's an actual video of her comments to Silicon Valley executives. n/t

[TwilightZone]

37. You might want to recheck your videos.

It's not "an actual video of her comments to Silicon Valley executives". It's 30 seconds of Hillary and 15 minutes of Lou Dobbs babbling. Nice misrepresentation of your source.

Oh, and this just in: she's not president yet. She's campaigning. Campaigning politicians tend to tell audiences what they want to hear.

[antigop]

38. Yes, it's a VIDEO that INCLUDES her comments. Good grief! n/t

[TwilightZone]

42. Hmm.

"It's an actual video of her comments"

"It's a video that INCLUDES her comments"

Look the same to you?

[antigop]

43. Oh, good grief! There is no way to spin this. Nice try. n/t

[TwilightZone]

47. What's there to spin?

On the issue of immigration, Lou Dobbs is a certifiable nutcase. It is simply impossible for him to be objective on the issue. Therefore, as a person capable of reason, I filter out much of his babble because it's just that: babble.

Combined with the fact that this is nothing more than a campaign promise on Hillary's part - speaking to an audience - I see no reason to run around screaming that the sky is falling.

You, however, have a different opinion. You're welcome to it.

[antigop]

50. She's a corporatist. Period. No way to spin her comments. n/t

[TwilightZone]

53. That brilliant deduction is based on 30 seconds of video from a campaign stop?

Impressive.

[antigop]

55. She supports increasing the cap on h1- b visa. Thank you for letting me post that again. n/t

[antigop]

44. Oh,and nice diversion. Attack the messenger. Yep. n/t

[TwilightZone]

48. Well, if you quit misrepresenting your source material...

you won't get called on it.

[antigop]

54. No, I didn't misrepresent anything. Hillary supports an increase in the h1-b Visa cap. n/t

[TwilightZone]

58. "It's an actual video of her comments to Silicon Valley executives"

None of them were a video of her comments. All three were Lou Dobbs programs with very, VERY small portions of Hillary's speeches.

That statement, therefore, was a misrepresentation of the content of the three videos.

Unfortunately, I had to watch 15 minutes of Lou Dobbs babbling and CNN whining about the spelling of "tomorrow" to determine that.

[antigop]

39. She doesn't have to be president to support an increase in the h1-b visa cap.

<edit to add link> http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9025894&intsrc=hm_list

Read. Learn. Understand.

[TwilightZone]

40. Personally, I don't believe everything that every politician says on the campaign trail.

Do you?

[antigop]

41. Wow! I guess we shouldn't believe anything she says then. n/t

[TwilightZone]

45. It's called "filtering". Give it a try.

Campaign promises are just that: promises. If every campaign promise came true, the budget would increase ten-fold.

I hate to tell you this, but all of the candidates do it. If you think your candidate is going to fulfill every one of his or her campaign promises, you're in for a surprise.

[antigop]

46. This is pathetic. There is no way to spin this. nice try. n/t

[TwilightZone]

49. Hey, if you want to believe everything the media tells you, feel free.

I choose not to, thanks.

[antigop]

52. They were HER comments. Good grief! n/t

[TwilightZone]

57. Campaign 101

Politicians tell people what they want to hear.

Politicians tell a specific audience things that the specific audience wants to hear.

Politicians tell people many things that are unlikely to ever happen.

Therefore, campaign promises should be taken with a grain of salt. A very large one.

[HughBeaumont]

51. I'd like to add some links if I may . . .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3156226#3156245

For further reading . . .

[LWolf]

23. NAFTA. IRAQ. n/t

[Bjorn Against]

31. Progressive Punch is the same site that rates Kucinich as the 166th most progressive House member

Anyone who honestly believes there are 165 members of the house who are more progressive than Kucinich has no credibility. Especially when they put Nancy "impeachment is off the table" Pelosi as the number one most progressive member. Progressive Punch is a joke.

[TwilightZone]

34. Thank you for the first response that actually has something to do with the source.

Actually, they have Dennis listed at 116, but your point is taken.

That being said, keep in mind that Dennis will sometimes lodge a protest vote, and that would be reflected in his record. SCHIP is a good example. Obviously, he agrees with it in principle but thinks it needs to go further, so he voted "no" for it in the current form.

His "no" vote would be construed as the non-progressive option on paper, when his intent is obviously otherwise.

[robinlynne]

33. If she is the 14th most progressive member of the senate, we're screwn.

[antigop]

56. Folks, I gotta go. sHillary is a corporatist. Watch the videos. n/t