Top Shiite leader agrees with Sen. Biden on governing Iraq

[ginchinchili]

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IRAQ?SITE=FLDAY&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Call for regional Iraq echoes US plan

By KATARINA KRATOVAC
Associated Press Writer


BAGHDAD (AP) -- The heir apparent of Iraq's top Shiite politician came out strongly in favor of giving more control to Iraq's religiously and ethnically divided regions on Saturday, telling supporters that central government control was "tyrannical."

The call by Ammar al-Hakim appeared to echo growing support among some in Washington to break Iraq into self-rule entities.

Al-Hakim, who is being groomed to replace his ailing father at the helm of Iraq's largest Shiite party, also called on Iraqis to work for the creation of self-rule regions across the country, but cautioned that national unity must be maintained.

"Federalism is one way to accomplish this goal," he told hundreds of supporters gathered at the party's headquarters in Baghdad's Jadriyah district to celebrate the start of the Muslim Eid al-Fitr feast that marks the end of the fasting month of Ramadan.

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This issue is not going away. There are only 2 ways forward in Iraq: 1)Bush's "plan" - propping up a strong central government (which would make it easier for us to manipulate) and pouring in tax dollars while our occupying forces continue to kill and be killed, or 2) the approach that Joe Biden is advocating, a federalist-styled government with a weaker central government.

Not taking a side is an endorsement of the Bush strategy. Eventually, the Biden plan will have its day. As Sen. Biden rightly proclaims, it's inevitable.

Now, Iraq's future top political leader is promoting the same thing. The reason he is, and the reason Biden say's that it's inevitable, is because it's the only way out of this nightmare. It's fraught with problems, but it's the only way that stands a chance.

We need someone who can see through the fog of politics and exhibit smart, informed, pragmatism like Joe Biden. No matter how you slice it, he remains the most qualified candidate to be President of the United States.

[demommom]

1. Amen!

[daninthemoon]

2. I knew the initial reports of Iraqi rejection and supposed insult at

the Biden proposal was nowhere near universal. I suspect there are many more Iraqis in favor of the proposal than opposed. Our admin is so full of it. Centralized absolute power under sadaam: bad. Centralized absolute power under a neocon puppet supporting blackwater, hunt oil, haliburton and all that: super cool. Let's try a blue finger vote on this proposal. It would almost be like if the Iraqis had a self-determining voice.

[ginchinchili]

4. "Self-determining voice!!!" Careful, my friend. Talk like that will get you in trouble

The irony of Bush's position on Iraq just drives me crazy. He's all the time preaching freedom and democracy for Iraq while occupying their country, murdering their citizens, and insisting on being the one who defines how they shall be governed. This imbecile should have been impeached long ago. And to think that there are still millions of Americans who don't see this obvious contradiction. God help this country.

[kad7777]

3. Once again, Joe Biden LEADS!!!

A true leader through and through. A pit Bull. A uniter. A Diplomat.
An HONEST, experienced politician who can move the world and its people.

[Kagemusha]

5. You really have no idea who Hakim is or what he wants, do you?

He wants his own version of what the Kurds have - a Shiite super-province under his personal rule, so that he doesn't have to take anything from Maliki anymore and gets all the money he needs from oil.

If that's Biden's vision, well... ...I'll be polite and not say more.

[ginchinchili]

6. We have to deal with the realities that exist there

Burying your head is only going to hurt. If that is what the Kurds want and that is what the Shiites want, well, that's two thirds of the country. I also have read that there are supporters for this plan in the Sunni community. A clear majority; if we are trying to give them self-rule, how can you argue with the Iraqi majority?

You obvious have a better way in mind. Would you like to share that with us? All ideas are welcome on this subject. Or are you just trying to get a dig in on Sen. Biden?

[jillan]

10. Maliki is a weak leader that has little respect in Iraq.

Bush/Cheney didn't do their homework when they were appointing leaders over there.

[ginchinchili]

13. No one we put in power will remain in power

How could we possibly believe that the US could put someone in power, prop him up, and expect the nation of Iraq to coalesce around him. That won't work any more than any government we construct for them. That's one of the brilliant aspects to Biden's plan. It allows for Iraqi's to decide how they want to be governed.

[ginchinchili]

11. Right, you'll not say more because you have nothing more to add

As I stated, if you don't support the Biden plan, you support the Bush plan. If you wish to defend that, go for it. Let's hear your reasoning. But don't just take a swipe at this carefully considered, widely supported plan then run. Let's here your defense of the Bush plan. Either that or you're just somebody's shill, which I suspect to be the case.

[Kagemusha]

12. This is not a children's playground.

I am finding it difficult to use polite words to express this but, you are attempting to turn this into a contest of manhood and accusing me of being a lap-dog for the sitting President because I cannot bring myself to accept the genius and superiority of Senator Biden. I will instead remark upon another statement related to yours (though written by another poster) in reply to my post about Maliki being a weak leader with little respect.

Al-Hakim is a thug, close to Iran, who wants to carve up his slice of Iraq, make it more or less independent of the central Iraqi government, and rule it as his own personal fiefdom. And, if cancer should claim him, he wants his son to succeed him. The result would not be a federal Iraq, but Iraq as a non-entity.

To put this very, very politely... I do not support the Bush plan. But I think helping al-Hakim achieve this scheme would be morally abhorrent. The better option is to simply leave. If Hakim can win what he desires by the blood of his followers, so be it. He should not have the US Army's blood and treasure assisting him in his sectarian ambitions. And Biden should not be lending him moral support.

[jillan]

14. And this administration displayed its ignorance when they helped to put this guy in power.

It is the Bush administration that invited Iran to join in the 'takeover' of Iraq.
And now they want to use that as an excuse to bomb Iran - as I see it.

[Kagemusha]

15. And we want to assist either that or an Iranian takeover why?

I don't get it. I don't get it at all. I'm no fan of bombing Iran but... what good does it do the interests of the United States to just hand things to Iran on a silver platter and help promote the idea of the de facto breakup of Iraq? I know Biden says that's not what he supports, and I know Hakim says it's not what he supports - but it sure as hell IS what Hakim supports, and he's using Biden's plan to support that. So why are we cheering Biden on for giving the man a propaganda victory in his scheme?

[ginchinchili]

17. Who's talking about assisting an Iranian takeover?

And how is an immediate pullout going to stop Iranian influence? Your argument is just not holding water. The things you say you'd like to avoid will only be exacerbated by an immediate American pullout. It sounds like you're just plugging in excuses to advocate a rushed pullout because the concerns you are expressing will only be made worse if we do what you're suggesting.

[Kagemusha]

19. I don't see any advantage to your version except exulting Biden's greatness.

Aside from the fact Biden said something you want to praise to the heavens, there's nothing he's done except put an American stamp of approval on the idea.. an idea which Hakim loves, because it benefits him personally, and which figures like Sadr, Sistani, Maliki, and vast swaths of the Iraqi public, which Hakim does not answer to, are heavily opposed to. (I realize you don't regard these facts as true, but since the first round of Biden worship on this issue, I checked my usual sources - Juan Cole for one - and found the situation to be as I assumed it to be from past experience, as I have just described above.)

Oh and wasn't I a Bush supporter a couple of hours ago...? Whatever, I really tire of this sort of thing. I do not post on DU just for the sake of (toilet-related) contests, so I'll stop here and move on with my life. Enjoy your victory.

[kad7777]

20. Let's hear it Kage

1) Instead of putting down Joe Biden, what EXACTLY would be YOUR plan?

2) WHo do you support for President?

[Kagemusha]

21. And you people dare criticize the media for horse race coverage?...

It's all about posturing, whose magical plan is best, who you support for President...

I am truly sickened. If that's all you people can talk about, do it without me next time. I've learned my lesson. You're not worth it.

[ginchinchili]

23. All we're asking is for you to explain your position.

What on earth do you expect? Is it really that hard for you? When you criticize someone's position, that person's natural reaction will be to ask you yours. Hello? You intimated a pullout, and by criticizing the Biden plan you're suggesting that your preference would eliminate, or at least mitigate, the problems you're criticizing Biden about. It's only fair to ask, how would a pullout solve the potential problems you point out in the Biden plan?

[kad7777]

24. I didn't think I'd get an answer

on BOTH of my questions.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUC8LeZ1hM4

[ginchinchili]

26. Like he said, it's all about posturing.

[Think82]

27. KICK!!!!!

[ginchinchili]

22. I challenged you only by asking the obvious--can you defend your position?

You've made it clear that your only intent was to take a shot at Biden, though by your failure to defend your position--how an immediate withdrawal would minimize or eliminate your criticisms of Biden's plan--makes it just another failed attempt at a sucker punch.

I post a statement of support for Biden and his plan for Iraq; you come on here and attack the candidate, his plan, and me; you give your reasons for objecting to Biden's plan; but the only alternative you offer is to pullout, sidestepping all the issues you criticize in Biden's plan. I call you on this, asking for an explanation, and rather than responding to my question--the defense you should have offered in the first place when giving your alternative to Biden's plan (which you never really gave), you cop out with an insult and split. Unless you relegate this issue to that of a game being played on a children's playground, perhaps it would be best if you either learned to defend your position or go back outside to play.

[ginchinchili]

16. So what you're saying is that somehow just pulling out will be better?

I can respect your desire to get out as soon as possible, but the negatives of the scenario you just described if the Biden plan is implemented could only be exacerbated by a complete and immediate pullout, would it not? So if you're wanting to avoid what you describe in your post, how will a pullout accomplish this? Biden's plan will get us out while giving Iraq its best shot at some organized governing structure. I'm afraid Bush opened the door to Iran when he took out Saddam. That's just one of the endless reasons we should be pursuing an impeachment of this president. But pulling out will only allow for the quickest route to Iran's increased meddling in Iraq. Biden's plan will allow us some influence that could be used to minimize the Iranian influence.

I think we all can readily agree that there are various factions in Iraq who have ambitions beyond the welfare of a united Iraq. Many of us were pointing to that as one of the primary reasons not to invade in the first place. But we went ahead with the invasion and now, like it or not, we have an obligation to ourselves, the people of Iraq, and entire Middle East, to try to leave, but to do so in a responsible manner that leaves enough structure in place for the people of Iraq to come to some sort of mutual agreement on how these various factions can be governed. It's clear that these diverse groups are not interested in sharing a strong, centralized government. This is why the Biden plan makes the most sense. It's the best way of giving power to the people. Yes, there will be those who make their power plays and it will be ugly. Biden not only concedes that, but is the first to state it. He's not trying to blow smoke up anyone's ass. He's just taken a situation with many incongruous elements and has formulated the closest thing to a sane, responsible plan. Someone had to step up and do something. The two things to say are stay the course and get the hell out now. Neither is realistic nor responsible.

[ginchinchili]

18. Please respond, because if just pulling out is a better idea I'm all for it, but...

I need to be convinced first. So far you've only given reasons why you don't support Biden's plan and made a passing reference to your dislike of the Bush approach, but you fail to explain how the steps you're advancing will remedy those problems you see with Biden's plan.

[ginchinchili]

7. Well said. It's clear that he's the obvious choice for the best interests of the US

not to mention the world

[Froward69]

8. Superb

I couldn't articulate that better. only to add Biden is the most Electable of em all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftZBGDYjSvE

[jillan]

9. That is great news!!

Federalism is just a matter of time.

[gateley]

25. K&R nt

[PatSeg]

28. I've read all the responses and I know that no plan is perfect

There will be problems and there will be Iraqi leaders who will try and take advantage of whatever the situation is. That doesn't mean we should sit back and let things go on the way they are. It also does not mean we should just up and leave, and hope for the best (or the least worst).

As for the Iraqi leaders who will try and impose their own agenda, the plan will involve negotiations and diplomacy, which means not everyone will get everything they want. I wouldn't get upset by the poster who criticized the plan. It is important that it be viewed from all perspectives and the criticisms taken into consideration.

[kad7777]

29. Thanx tsegat01

Well said.

[PatSeg]

30. You're welcome

The little bit of criticism that Biden is getting is small change compared to the front runners. The more exposure Biden gets, the more criticism we'll hear. No criticism at all means NO ONE is paying any attention.

[ginchinchili]

31. Good point...as usual!

[kad7777]

32. You are so right

and I'll predict it here, if Joe Biden does really well in Iowa, The racist card will be played to try and squash Joe ASAP. I hope Joe has a plan to battle that just in case. His supporters know he's the farthest thing from a racist. One of the reasons he first got involved in politics was the civil rights movement. And he has one THE BEST civil rights voting record in the Senate. But mark my words, he does well in Iowa, that card will be played fast and hard.

[PatSeg]

33. If we are to be optimistic, which I am

I think it is a good idea to be prepared for the inevitable smears such as you mentioned. I've already saved an article about Biden and the bankruptcy bill that is very informative, not at all like the garbage people are dishing out. Very complex though - hardly a soundbite!

Biden is a pro, so I think he is prepared for the the downside of eventual success. He's been there before and probably knows better how to handle it than we could imagine.

[demommom]

34. This is good.