14 year old eye witness to boot camp beating talked to the Miami Herald last year.

[madfloridian]

He gave a chilling account of the beating of Martin Lee Anderson. It is actually pretty thorough, and a well done article by the Herald reporter.

Boy, 14, tells of boot camp beatings

The screaming guards. The pressure points. The knee takedowns. The acrid ammonia stick shoved in the face of a rubber-legged 14-year-old named Martin Lee Anderson. Aaron Swartz can't forget any of it. Not because he saw it all the way most people did -- in a grainy videotape of the guards and Martin before his death -- but because Aaron was there, at Bay County Boot Camp, receiving much of the same violent treatment that still makes him shudder miles away from it all.

''They killed that boy. They didn't help him. They beat him,'' Aaron, also 14, told The Miami Herald in one of the first eyewitness -- and earwitness -- accounts of the dehumanizing experience of life at the Panama City lockup before, during and after Martin's arrival.

...."As Aaron tells it, time at the camp was measured in fear and pain, in increments of forced exercise, wall-slams, pressure points, knee takedowns and hammer-fist punches by DIs who video-taped it all. When the boys would go to bed, he said, they could hear the DIs watching the tapes in a nearby room, cheering on their greatest hits as if watching a sporting event.

He heard guards talking about it that night, he says.

Like Martin's family, Aaron thinks there's a coverup. He believes he overheard one guard repeatedly talking of ''revising'' and changing a report or reports, but he doesn't know which ones. He said around 6 p.m. on Jan. 6 a camp counselor told the boys Martin had died of natural causes -- only about two hours after Dr. Charles Siebert finished the autopsy.

..."But the ammonia didn't revive Martin. And soon they could hear the sirens. The boys were led inside. Martin was whisked away only hours after arriving at the camp.

He said a counselor told them "it was completely medical. . . . Athletes die every day, all the time, for medical reasons -- that healthy athletes stop and die so it's not unusual."

Aaron did not believe her. He told the reporter

"I don't think that's true at all. Even if it was medical, when he passed out, if they would have set him down and then gave him medical help right then, I think they could have saved his life and everything. But instead, they did all pressure-pointing, slammed him, beating up on him and everything."

Panama City, Bay County, Florida sounds like a tragically divided town which appears to be two cities.

Anderson trial tells two tales of a town

How small a town is Panama City? Just across the street from the courthouse where the guards and nurse are being tried sits the camp. Shut down like the rest in Florida after the video made national news, it sits abandoned, razor-wire gates rusty.

Tired of scenes of a boy collapsing and dragged upright again, I left and drove to where Martin lived. It is literally on the other side of the tracks, a scrubby street of ramshackle houses.

A few blocks over is the cemetery, the grass too high, fence sagging. He is there, flanked by stone angels, not a hero, not a monster, just gone.

What will the jury call what happened to Martin Lee Anderson? Sad comes to mind. And sorry. And wrong

A federal review of the case is underway since the verdict which found all 8 innocent.

There must need to be some healing there.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

1. That whole "boot camp" format sounds like a MAGNET for sadists

Imagine, they get PAID to torment teenagers any way they want, and the community thinks they're doing something praiseworthy.

[ProudDad]

22. The whole fucking criminal-injustice system is a magnet for sadists!!!!

It's unredeemable and should be ABOLISHED!!!!

All jails and prisons are full of sadistic assholes torturing and brutalizing their captives...

All cops and DA's lie through their fucking teeth to get more folks (primarily people of color) into those places.

And the complicit public screams for more blood!!!

[madfloridian]

2. The arrogant testimony of a guard. The nurse's testimony.

They appear not to be aware of their role in this. Or maybe they are and can not face up to it.

Guard: Boy should have kept exercising to stop violent encounter

PANAMA CITY, Florida (AP) - A boot camp supervisor charged with killing a 14-year-old boy testified Tuesday that guards would have stopped hitting the unresponsive teen if he had just kept exercising.

At any time he could have walked, got up, finished the run, guard Charles Helms said when asked how Martin Lee Anderson could have gotten out of the situation, in which guards repeatedly hit him and forced him to inhale ammonia after he collapsed while running laps.

..."Helms said he did not initially see Anderson's condition as a medical emergency and his main concern was to get the teen to comply with orders. He said Anderson showed «signs of life» throughout the altercation.

I have no sympathy for the nurse, or for any of them.



Former boot camp nurse Kristin Schmidt, left, is asked if she can continue to testify by her attorney, Ashley Benedik. She is one of eight boot camp employees charged with aggravated manslaughter in the 2006 death of Martin Lee Anderson, 14

Nurse thought the ailing teenager was malingering, she testifies.

Still, she stood by, watching in her white lab coat, hands on her hips. Kristin Schmidt did so because the 14-year-old's vital signs were normal, his words the only evidence of any crisis, she testified Tuesday. And in boot camp, she said, talk wasn't enough.

The registered nurse assumed he was malingering, she said.

"In the boot camp, you can't just stop activities because of words," said Schmidt, 54. "You have to look for signs and symptoms, or the boot camp would not have existed."

She asked him why he couldn't breathe.

She said she listened to his lungs and checked his pulse. Both were normal.

"I asked him, 'What makes you think you can't breathe?'" she recalled. "He said, 'I can't breathe.'"

She turned to Enfinger.

"I think I was letting Enfinger know that I couldn't see anything physically wrong with him," she said. "It looked like malingering."

Maybe the ammonia capsules they kept shoving in his nose had something to do with it.

[sandnsea]

60. I just don't understand

I just don't. I sit here feeling like I'm in a twilight zone episode. I've worked with addicted kids. My stepson had really bad bipolar and would come completely unhinged. He was in facilities, in 3 states. Nothing like this EVER happened, EVER. This is not what boot camp is supposed to be either. I just don't understand how things got to be like this.

[Heywood J]

64. How stupid do they think we are?

A boot camp supervisor charged with killing a 14-year-old boy testified Tuesday that guards would have stopped hitting the unresponsive teen if he had just kept exercising.

If the unconscious boy had just kept exercising, they wouldn't have kicked him to death. How is he supposed to exercise while unconscious from a beating?

[sasquatch]

3. I'm afraid the only way this family will get any justice is if they copy the Boondock Saints

http://youtube.com/watch?v=JKzM8xsQ5-U

[Freddie Stubbs]

10. Perhaps if they had been better parents their kid would not have wound up in

the Juvenile Justice system in the first place.

[NOLALady]

11. Are you saying he deserved this treatment because he did

not have good parents? Are you saying the guards were justified because of bad parenting?

[Freddie Stubbs]

12. No, I am not saying that.

I am saying that perhaps if they had been better parents none of this would have happened. A 14-year-old probation violator isn't exactly a sign of Parent of the Year winners.

[madfloridian]

14. That is an outrageously arrogant statement.

How dare you judge others like that?

The guards beat him and the nurse stood by.

I can not believe you said that.

That sounds self-righteous to me.

[Freddie Stubbs]

17. So, it is ok for you to judge the guards and the nurse, but not ok for me to judge the parents?

I can not believe you said that.

That sounds self-righteous to me.

[madfloridian]

19. They are on video beating the kid for over 30 minutes.

Then he died. I can judge them by their own words....they used what I think is another name for torture.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1582

You really are way out of line on this.

[Freddie Stubbs]

21. And where the hell were his parents?

How did they let if get to a point was getting arrested multiple times at 14 years of age?

[madfloridian]

25. Then who else of age 14 deserves to die?

:shrug:

[Freddie Stubbs]

28. I never said that he deserved to die

But I do believe that his parents are partially responsible for this.

[tom_paine]

55. Arrogant much? He was murdered. oh, I know it only "counts" as involutary manslaughter

and that those guards didn't mean to kill him, just beat and suffocate him to within an inch of his life with ammonia capsules, but how are the parents responsible for him winding up in an out-of-control detention center in which he was killed using misuesd and illegal techniuqes (at least that what the DJJ said, as per the article and forced inhalation of ammonia caps).

Blame rape victims much?

After all, she shouldn't have been walking in that neighborhood wearing those provocative clothes. She brought it on herself, right?

:sarcasm:

I am simply stunned that you would say such a thing, but no longer suprised at any of the shit human beings say or do, here on DU or anywhere else.

You have the right to blame a murder (manslaughter) victim and their parents for being in the place hwere they were murdered, but I quite frankly have the right to reply that I can think of little more odious and reprehensible to say about a murder victim, particularly when there is so much video evidence.

Wow, I don't often say this, but suddenly I feel the need to retch. :puke:

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Freddie Stubbs]

32. The "Prick" did not say that

Please do not put words in the "Prick's" mouth.

[madfloridian]

33. You blamed the parents. The kid is dead. You are wrong. Apologize.

[Freddie Stubbs]

36. If the parents had kept him out of trouble he would not be dead

Sometimes the truth hurts.

[madfloridian]

38. I don't think you understand how cruel that sounds. How totally heartless.

How lacking in soul.

The parents are victims of the system as well.

[Freddie Stubbs]

44. I completely understand

Life is cruel. It was cruel to Martin Lee Anderson. Unfortunatley for him, his parents were not there for him when they needed him. Did you know that he didn't even live with this parents?

[Catherine Vincent]

49. This kid was a human being and did not deserve to die this way.

Those prosecutors would have loved you on that jury.

[Freddie Stubbs]

52. I agree that he did not deserve to die

His parents? That's another story.

[tom_paine]

56. Sick, sick, sick.

:puke: :puke: :puke:

[tblue37]

73. Sometimes even when parents do things right kids get into trouble,

because parents are not the only influence on kids. Besides the effect of a toxic culture, when a child reaches adolescence, their peer group becomes particularly important to them, and they often become impossible for the parents to deal with. I have known many kids whose parents lost control of them when they became adolescents, even though they had been good parents and the kids had been good kids. We don't raise our kids in a vacuum. In other times and places, the cultural milieu supported and reinforced what parents wanted to teach their kids, but in our culture, innumerable powerful influences work at precisely cross purposes.

My kids are adults now, and both are successful, upstanding citizens. But when he was 13 1/2, my sweet little baby boy turned into a royal pain in the ass. It was all I could do to keep him from getting into real trouble--and I am really good with kids, as well as being a very attentive, hands-on parent. In addition to teaching college, I also ran a home daycare for 18 years and know quite a lot about raising kids. And when the older siblings of my daycare kids became more than their parents could handle, I often took them in myself to work with them. It doesn’t matter how good you are with kids—they are still subject to terrible influences that you might not have any control over.

You might want to read my article "Adolescents: Living on Capital" on my Who's Minding the Children website. It's about the difficulties parents have when their kids reach adolescence, and what some of the factors are that feed into those difficulties:
http://www.childrensneeds.homestead.com/adolescence.html

I might also point out that loving, well-meaning parents, besides not having social support for bringing their kids up well, also might not even know much about child development or child-rearing techniques. They might do everything they can think of to do, but without any real knowledge of what works.

It is all too easy to blame the parents when the parents are nowhere near the only influence on a child's behavior. His parents might have been lousy parents—or they might have been good parents. We can’t tell just from the fact that he got into trouble.

[conscious evolution]

57. What a great Reich-wing farting point.

[madfloridian]

16. Yes, that is exactly what he said.

He judged the parents and excused the guards and the nurse.

It is unbelievable. Yes, that is what he meant.

[Freddie Stubbs]

18. I did not excuse the guards and nurse

Please not not pur words in my mouth.

[madfloridian]

15. Totally arrogant and judging statement.

I find it hard to believe you said it.

[Freddie Stubbs]

24. If the guards and nurse can be judged, why not the parent?

:shrug:

[madfloridian]

26. How dare you? Did you see the video?

Or did you lose some humanity somewhere along the way.?

[Freddie Stubbs]

30. Yes I saw the video

I am not saying that the guards and the nurse are innocent. But I am saying that parents share some of the blame on this.

[Catherine Vincent]

47. Did you see the full video?

It was horrible. Aside from the beating and kicking.... They would lift the kid and try and make him walk but his knees kept buckling and he'd fall to the ground. This happened several times. At one point the poor boy tried to take a step but he kept buckling. I was crying as I watched this. It's hard to believe not one juror found the defendants at fault for his death.

[Freddie Stubbs]

62. Yes, I did

That still doesn't absolve the parents from failure to be parents.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Freddie Stubbs]

35. I am not blaming the victim, Martin Lee Anderson

I am suggesting that his parents failed him.

[Catherine Vincent]

31. WTF?

:mad:

[autorank]

4. And this is where the tough kids learn to behave. Not likely.

When you demonstrate violence to violent people, even if they're new to violence, they take it
as permission to commit violence. It's call vicarious learning, well established method of
acquiring behaviors. That's why the kids who saw the screaming events in prison ("Scared
Straight") had higher criminal rates than similar kids who did not participate - the "Scared"
left and realized they'd "toughed out." So what's the lesson... you got it.

Excellent.

We're really into torture and violence on a scale never seen before here. It's very disturbing
but I guess torture is the next step from the non stop real and "entertainment" versions of
violence...a daily, hourly diet of shit.

Sorry about this kids. Neither they nor their parents signed up for this. It's criminal.

[madrchsod]

5. "Well there are people in the darkness

And they just can't see the light
And if we don't say it's wrong then that says it's right
We got to feel for each other
Let our brothers know we're here
Got to get the message and send it out loud and clear

That none of us are free
None of us are free
None of us are free if one of us is chained
None of us are free ..."

"none of us are free"

[madfloridian]

6. Beautiful words......Martin called himself a "shining star in the world"

This article really moved me.

http://www.essence.com/essence/lifestyle/voices/0,16109,1671196,00.html

"A SEARCH FOR MEANING

On another brilliant day, as kids in Volvos and Chevy Blazers pour into Panama City for spring break, Gina packs up her family’s belongings in preparation for a move to another house. Earlier in the day she had raked the gray sand in the front yard, weaving the grains into a beautiful, abstract pattern. Startavia says her mother rakes the yard a lot since Martin has been gone. “She said she’s out there thinking,” Startavia says.

Martin’s grandmother Reto believes that it’s no accident that her grandson shares a birth date with Martin Luther King, Jr. Just like King, “what happened to my grandbaby is gonna be for the glory,” she says. “It’s gonna shine a light.”

Inside the house, Martin’s room is exactly as he left it: Posters of his favorite rappers adorn the white walls; his sports jerseys hang in the tiny closet. In the living room among his framed honor roll certificates is the poem he wrote before he went to the boot camp: “I am like a tiger...I am like a lion.” Toward the end of the poem he described himself as something his parents always knew he was: “I am like a shining star in the world.” Rosalind Bentley is a writer in Atlanta."

[grannie4peace]

7. is there still hope that jusice will be served?

i remember how sick to my stomach i was when i heard the not giulty verdicts. it reminded my of o.j. but worse-- that is the job for a real attorney general--to restructure the correctional branch of justice department. we have to find out about the people the canidates want to appoint to their cabinets.:mad: :spank: :grr: :cry:

[NOLALady]

13. It made me feel the way I felt when I heard the acquittal

in the beating of Rodney King. My son was 9 at the time. I wept for his future.

[jackster]

8. and yet...

the on-line forums of several north Florida newspapers are filled with defenders of the entire episode. The hatred and racism is sickening and just reading them makes me wonder if we aren't reliving the 1950's!

[TexasBushwhacker]

9. Thankfully, there may be federal charges

"A federal review of the case is underway since the verdict which found all 8 innocent."

[William769]

20. I am retired from the Florida Department of Corrections.

On several occasions I was asked to switch over to a "boot camp" to work. Every time I was asked, I declined. Although it was a good program in theory, I saw where it was headed and wanted no part of it.

[ProudDad]

34. What makes you think it was a good program????

The fucking jails and prisons DON'T FUCKING WORK NOW!!!!!

Making them more violent and their tortures more exquisite and pervasive will make them Fucking work better????

GOD DAMN!!!!!


The definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over expecting a different result.

The criminal-injustice system in this country DOESN'T WORK... Doing more of it ain't gonna fucking fix it!!!!

[William769]

43. For first time, non violent offenders.

Take your anger out on me if you want, I just posted what I felt.

[madfloridian]

41. Read the GAO report about these "good" programs.

The report came out on the 10th this month, but it is getting no coverage.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1583

[William769]

46. Where did i say it was a good program?

When I was working for the State, I was activly involved with our union to keep a watch on these "boot camps", I wanted no part of them.

[madfloridian]

23. To the person who is judging the parents in the post above.

I taught many "Martin Lee Andersons" through the years. Some were just rascals, some were worse....

BUT I never taught a kid who deserved to be put in a boot camp and beaten by guards for 30 minutes.

[Freddie Stubbs]

37. I never said that Martin Lee Anderson deserved to be beaten

There you go again trying to put words in my mouth.

[madfloridian]

39. You are choking on your words now. You need to back off.

You have dug a hole, and you know what they say about holes.

[Freddie Stubbs]

42. Which words? When and where did I say Anderson deserved to die?

:shrug:

[madfloridian]

45. As far as I am concerned, you will be talking to yourself.

Bye

[Freddie Stubbs]

48. I suppose if you cannot win an argument you can just put your fingers in your ears

http://imgred.com/

[kas125]

51. I'm curious to know if you've had teenaged sons

and if you were able to control their every move. Exactly how is it that you know what his parents did or didn't do or how hard they may or may not have tried to keep their kid on the right path? Did you, as a teenager, ever do things that your parents were not aware of? And if you did, did that make them responsible for what you chose to do?

[Freddie Stubbs]

53. He didn't even live with his parents. Either of them

[Diclotican]

59. Freddie Stubbs

Freddie Stubbs

Sir

I have _never_ lived with my parents, have lived in fosterhome and childrens home, and some other instition who are helping kids/young adults who have not living whith the parents when they are growing up..

And I have _never_ experiment what this boy have experienced when he was at something called "Bootcamp": I have had help from the medical establiment since I was 6, and have been going to a terapist for a long time when I was young.. But I was _never_ beaten, and behaved like this system you have in US, or in Florida...

Now I am 31 year old, dont have a criminal record, have been disent for all my life, and working..

Should you blame me, or my parents becouse of the situation that was given me not that good card at the first place?.. What you are saing, as I read it, is that the parents, and the child in case here are peopole to blame for the death of a 14 year young child.. Not the Guards who was doing the violence.. istent that a exuce for that the criminal system wil go roten that I dont know about it..

What are you doing when you are treating a child like this gard sees to have been doing, beating him for 30 minuts, and dosent care less that the children infact was dead??. What are you suporting exactly here?.. A Consentration camp for children who at some point in their life have been doing some stupid and been draged to a camp?.. I know that many children dosent live by the way they shounld have been. I know that many children have a crime record the high of a bad year.. But you dosent LEARN a CHILD to behave and to be a part of the socitity when you are beating them. What you are learing is hate, hate to the guards, hate to the peopole on the outside, hate for everything he had experienced before the age of 18..

I dont belive in wiolence TO children, you han rectify many things with non-viloence metod if you know how to do it. And have the education to be with criminal children, or children with behavior problems.. You DOSENT NEED TO BEAT A CHILDREN TO DEATH.. If you do it the right way, the young adult wil grow up to be decent people who want to work and to build a better life forthemself, whit the card them are given... They dosent _need_ to learn to hate if they are given the chance to learn othervise...

This is from a man who have been in the "system" in many year since 1976 when I was born... But then, I havent grown up in the US, but in a smal european country so I guess the system is little diferent in US:

Diclotican

Sorry my bad engelish, not my native language

[Freddie Stubbs]

61. What I am saying is that if these parents had been more involved in their child's life, it would

have been much less likely for him to wind up in the juvinile justice system. Most people would consider that to be a reasonable statement.

[Diclotican]

63. Freddie Stubbs

Freddie Stubbs

Sir You can be in your childrens life all what you manage to do. And even then get a children who are out of controll, and are wandring into the juventile justice system. To bee in your childrens life, from the start are no garanti for that the children are going the right way and keep its nouse clean...

I know about this . Even parents with good education that have all the chances to give the children all that they need, and then some more can end in the "system" becouse the children need more than just parents who care and loved the kids to bitts..

It is never a garanty that your children wil not end up in some "system". But the chances is less if you are in your childrens life, that sure..

But so long we dosent know about how good the parents was, when they was in this kids life you cant blame them.. And If I get it right, often the fosterhome system in US is flawed to the brink of misuse becouse the system often are not working to the benefit for the shildren, but often for the benefit og the government who wil use less and less money to the pepole who care for children...
And if you dosent use the recources needed to protect the children, you get exactly young adults in the juventile justice system.. You get what you pay for... Exactly what you pay for to be precicely

Diclotican

Sorry my bad engelish, not my native language.

[Catherine Vincent]

65. Don't apologize.

You did great. Welcome to DU! :hi:

[Diclotican]

66. cat_girl25

cat_girl25

Thank you;) Nice to know that my rather bad engelish is god enough:

Diclotican

Sorry my bad engelish, not my native language

[Freddie Stubbs]

69. We know that the child did not live with his parents

[Diclotican]

70. Freddie Stubbs

Freddie Stubbs

Many Kids live without their parents, in US as in Norway. It is many causes for that. But that is not a reason to kill a kid, becouse he dosent live with theyr parents.. The socity have the DUTY to help, and to protect children who are not protected under the wing of the parents.. If the socity at a whole are given in to this type of thing, the whole fabric of a country is going apart.. The whole consept of children care is that youth and children who the parent canot protect or help them can be protected and given the best chances in the world to get "normal lifes". It locks from my perspective that the guard of this "bootcamp" dont care for the children, and even misuse the children if they can manage to do that.. And is that the correct thing to do, when you are in this type of work? Is it not important to try to get this kids who are criminal to strigthen out, and get their life togheter, so they can be "god" peopole the next 50-60 year.. Not hatefull, angry young adults who only way is criminal.. And who have a grouge against the goverment in the state they are living in?

Many kids in US as in Norway cant live in the same house, the same city as theyr parent becouse of thing that is out of controll for the kids.. That is NOT a reason for a guard, or a few more to misuse, and beating to death a kid who only crime was that he was "on the wrong way". If the kid had been educated, reformed and helped, he may be the next Einstein or other thing that US can be werry proud of.. Istead of a dead corpse in a cemetary...

Diclotican

Sorry my bad engelish, not my native language

[Freddie Stubbs]

71. I never said that the child not living with his parents was a reason for him to be mistreated

What I said was if the parents had been more involved in his life, he would have been less likely to have become a criminal. If he had not become a criminal, he would not have been in that boot camp.

[Diclotican]

72. Freddie Stubbs

Freddie Stubbs

Sir

I wil try one more time..

I have worked for some time with what you wil call "problem-children" and many of the most active and destrutive children I was into, was children of verry catable parents. They have all the resources that a child can get, with partens that have good education, good salary, good homes and can take free when I have to work day after day, month after month year after year.. But they are not catable to care of the children. It is a hard myth that parents who are rich and catable dosent get trublesome children.. It i just a myth with non truth to it...

And I have worked with children who have not so educated parents, who dosent have that great big house, or the great workplace. But are doing their best to help their shildren to get the best posible help, when they cant help the kids themself.. I have worked with ALL the "clases" in our country, and the myth that if you just take care your children and give the children that they want, and then some more are not true..

The fact is that even the most carefull decent partens, with all the education, all the disiplines can screw it up, or the children can get into something they cant get out of on their own.. If you friends are the "bad aples" it is verry easy to get into the bad path, who in lack of better word are "going to the dark side" and are doing crimial thing.. But the CHILDREN should be protected if they are in the "problem-spot". If the "system" is ceeping a aye on thing, the school are doing their duty and so on, a criminal road can be twarted before it have startet. If the system are picing up the children, and give them the help their need then.. In many cases the "system" ar picing up the children to late, and the ressources to get the child "straits" is hard to get, if they are really in problems..

But even a criminal child dosent deserve to get into a prision system. Even that you dosent call the "boot camps" a prision then it is that it is. A prision to keep children out of the ordinary life. Becose of the fact that the "system" have failed the children maybee from the get go.. And it is totaly wrong to send a CHILDREN to prision. That is wat you do with grown ups, who have behaved BAD.. A children who have behave bad, you get help, not a prision cell to kompenplate about what to do next.. Yes many children are scared allmoust to death, and want to do everything they can do behave better.. to "fit in" if you understand my drift. But the "hard-core" children, who maybee is destroyd already is not to be scarede about been sending to prision.. They cant care less. And problely are going in and out of prision for the great part of their life..

Prision or a instituion who are giving children verry restrive ways to live should be used with cation, and as a last resort.. You dosent send a 14 year old children, to a camp where you may happend to see 18 year old youth with a criminal cheet that is long as a nightmare at elm street.. A 14 year old children can be learened to behave, learned to dosent steel, dosent destroy property, if you get the right help to them..

I know about many children who with the right help, are been great grownups. Even peopole who itself have given birth to other children, and take a great pride, and care of take care of their children.. It dosent mean that you are been a criminal, if you dosent get attention from your parents or have partens who take a great controll life on your own..

And I guess too, that this child, 14 year of age chould have given the right to get the help he needed, and dont be killed by the gueads who was there to help him.. Its a tragedy when a 14 year child is dead.. What a waste for the world...

Diclotican

Sorry my bad engelish, not my native language
Dicloitican

[madfloridian]

67. Diclotican, I have been reading some of your other posts here.

You do quite well, and your posts are clear and to the point. Glad to have you at DU.

:hi:

[Diclotican]

68. madfloridian

madfloridian

Thank you for your kind word. I try to be to the point, Its best to be that, when I write in a language I dosent are good at, as engelish.

Diclotican

Sorry my bad engelish, not my native language.

[ProudDad]

40. I give up...

I can't stay here with people like that poster...

There's no hope for this society...it's corrupt to the core...

When enablers for this sick system call themselves "progressives" or "Democrats", I can't find any solution among "progressives" or "Democrats"...

I don't even fucking want to try to persuade them any more...

Fuck this shit...

[Catherine Vincent]

50. I understand how you feel.

Don't give up.

[madfloridian]

58. Don't give up.

This is unfortunately the legacy of some of the more centrist in our party. They think differently because they have fallen for the right wing talk of personal responsibility....only thing is they took it too far.

I saw it happen to one of my sons who lives a very red state. He about 2002 became very pious and very critical of those who were less fortunate than himself. I as his mother told him off royally and pointed out he was falling for things that were cold and heartless.

I will get blasted, but this is the legacy now on our party of the DLC forgetting they were after all just a think tank. They took it too far and tried to get real and honest people to hush.

[ieoeja]

54. What proponents of bootcamp for kids don't get.

As the article states, it is "dehumanizing". A lot of people who went through military bootcamp actually fail to realize that the first priority of that training was to strip you of your humanity. Bootcamp does not just discipline you. It disciplines you to kill other human beings.

That is an incredibly strong inhibition for most people. The military has to break you down til you no longer care. The Marine Corps openly brags that by the time you are out of bootcamp you will kill your own mother if so ordered.

Of course, from discussions with my ex-Army buddies, it would appear the Marines took this to a much further extreme than the Army. But I am fairly certain the Army has similar ends in mind.