Obama supporters :has the Obama / gospel singer issue caused you to rethink your support of him?

[IndianaJones]

Why or why not?

[hlthe2b]

1. Why don't you ask this as a poll?

I'd be curious as to the percentages. Of course you'll get non-supporters voting too, I suppose.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

2. I'd like to have more information than what is out there

All I know is this Donnie guy performed at a gospel concert for him. I have no idea whether or not Obama was even aware of his homophobic views. I also am reserving judgement until he makes an official response to it. Obama has a good record on GLBT issues, so I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt on this.

[Mass]

3. Why should it? I do not condone this gospel singer, but

this is only ONE thing. In balance, I prefer Obama by far to the other major candidates.

[William769]

4. Here's a quote off one of the blogs.

"These people are no better than the arch conservative (closeted gay) christian republican hypocrites!
They seem incapable of seeing the hypocrisy in this.
Unbelievable."

Thats how I feel about anyone who is even remotely trying to justify this.

[dmallind]

5. Obama is not my top choice

but this has done nothing either way to change that. There is too much weight placed on minimally important associations and events for all candidates. If Obama said/says "I agree with Donnie about the need to end homosexuality" then sure chalk me down as a pissed off potential Obama voter who just wrote him off - but he hasn't and doubtless won't. Running for office necessitates reaching out to as many people as possible in as many ways as possible, and there is a big difference between sharing a stage with someone or using them to reach voters and agreeing with every facet of their personality and politics.

[Ethelk2044]

6. No, Because Obama's views have not changed. He does not

discriminate against anyone.

[sandnsea]

7. Yeah, some random singer

That's exactly what I base my vote on. :eyes:

Have we vetted every person that was ever at a church with Hillary.

[Ethelk2044]

8. Donnie was at a recent event with Husband Bill on 9/15/07

Guilt by Association from what they have said on DU. Then they should not vote for Hillary either

[katsy]

11. Link?

Did Bill invite him?

[Cameron27]

12. I think she's referring to Andrew Young's birthday party

and no, Bill didn't invite him.

[William769]

13. Just more disinformation coming from a Obama supporter.

We get that quite a bit.

[Ethelk2044]

15. It is not disinformation. You are stating Guilt by Association. When Hillary should divorce Bill

since he was at an event and Donnie was there.


http://www.blacknews.com/pr/andrewyoung101.html

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

22. How low can you sink? That's on par with "Jim Webb lives in the same state as Pat Robertson!"

[William769]

27. All I have to do is let her dig her own hole.

[MonkeyFunk]

77. No, you're right

it's more than disinformation. It verges on an outright lie.

the two situations are not comparable.

[katsy]

20. No wonder a link wasn't included.

There's no comparison between events.

To say I'm disappointed in Obama is an understatement.

What next? David Duke going campaigning for some Dem nominee? That'll net us some racist votes so it's okay?

Not by me. Bigotry is not among my values... neither is promoting ignorance.

[Ethelk2044]

14. Did not have to drive him. He should have turned down the event knowing Donnie was there.

http://www.blacknews.com/pr/andrewyoung101.html

[killbotfactory]

35. Wow. Lots of people at that event.

I bet they didn't know it got turned into a gay bashing fest because McClurkin performed.

[Sandaasu]

40. That is disappointing

But, I'm not exactly a big fan of Hillary anyway. I don't really expect much concern about us from Bill because, while he was generally a good president, he hasn't exactly been our best friend in the past. Hillary has been better so far, at least.

[Sandaasu]

9. It most certainly has

I've been loose in my support for candidates, because we do have a lot of good ones this time around, but I was just about ready to consider myself a card-carrying Obama supporter. I was going to send in money, help with the grassroots here, and so on.

Then I got thrown in front of a bus.

As a gay man, this is horribly disappointing, and I think that the apologists here don't understand how big of a deal this is for us. I liked Obama very much because of his strong showing at the HRC forum, but that all quickly dissolves when promotion of an "ex-gay" nut is revealed. I didn't mind the whole faith thing, I'm Christian myself, and I think that the right kind of reaching out to those that consider their faith to be important is good, but if you need to hold firm to your standards if you're going to do that. They don't need to be given a free pass into the tent, they need to be shown that what we have in the tent really does better fit the message of Christ.

Now, here, I'm seeing some strong Obama supporters not only saying that this wasn't a mistake, but some of them are standing up for the "ex-gay" singer that we're up in arms about! That is tremendously insulting!

Unless Barack kicks McClurkin from the event he's involved in and apologizes for having scheduled him for it in the first place, I don't think I'll be able to support him again. As it is, even if this is corrected, he'll have a lot of ground to make up. I'm one of the "anyone but Hillary" types, but unless Obama does something about this fast, I'll certainly take her over him.

[Ethelk2044]

18. Edwards Supporter trying to Dog Obama. You never was an Oama Supporter

[Sandaasu]

21. Absolutely wrong

I favored Obama because of his strong showing at the HRC event, what appeared to be generally sound wisdom, and the thing that set him apart, a relatively strong stance against the death penalty.

But hey, keep going with this if you want, you'll just keep driving those like me further away.

[ronnykmarshall]

56. She has a way with words that Ethel.

Can charm a snake I tells ya!

[fudge stripe cookays]

121. And you never was...

an exceptional user of grammar.

:eyes:

[Moloch]

10. Yes.

I was ready to go to New Hampshire to campaign for Obama and now I am going to campaign AGAINST him.

I'm gay and will not be marginalized in this way. Saying that gays and lesbians can change their sexuality is an extreme form of psychological cruelty, resulting in an extreme suicide rate for gay and lesbian youth. With the hubbub about all of this, Obama is undoubtedly aware that this person is on his "gospel" tour and that he has not been removed speaks volumes.

Obama ought to be ashamed of himself and I will work tirelessly to see him defeated now.

[AtomicKitten]

16. you are conflating Obama with McClurkin

Obama has a good record on LGBT issues.

You assume too much, but that is your prerogative.

Just know as much as Hillary Clinton's hawkish views on war turn my stomach, I have never declared I will campaign against her. And those are her views, not someone singing at a campaign stop.

[Moloch]

122. As a former supporter of Obama's..

I know he has a good record on LGBT issues but he is undoubtedly aware of McClurkin's preaching on this issue now and he has not removed him from the tour.

[Dawgs]

30. Why? How is Obama different today than yesterday?

His views on homosexuality are the exactly the same.

[Sandaasu]

31. Because now it's questionable

So far, he's been good about LGBT issues, one of the better ones even, but this puts into question how important he considers us to be. We now wonder how far he'll go to pick up evangelicals, and if we might be marginalized in the process. We've been tossed aside before by those who have said kind things to us in the past, so when we see signs of it happening again, we panic.

It's especially disappointing because all he had to do to avoid this fiasco is not sign on Donnie. The rest is fine.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

111. Don't let the door hit you on the ass

Maybe you could work for one of the four Presidential candidates who were in the U.S. Senate in 2002 (Biden, Clinton, Dodd, Edwards). Who gave Dumbya authorization to go to war. They had to be "undoubtedly aware" of what greedy warmongerers they were dealing with. Obama was smart enough to know that the war was bullshit and explained why, when it was unpopular to do so.

But shit, his campaign didn't thoroughly pore over the writings and statements of some fucking singer, who had performed for the Clintons in the past BTW, so you're not even going to bother to give him the benefit of the doubt, despite his great record on gay issues. Since this one thing - where there is as yet no affirmation that he or his campaign even knew about the guy's views - is going to cause you to abruptly go from being an eager supporter to campaigning against him. You can't even be bothered to contact his campaign to get some clarification or even wait and see how he responds. That kind of rash impulsivity is not a good characteristic in a campaign volunteer so by all means, take your energies elsewhere.

[daninthemoon]

17. I like Kucinich, but this issue has no effect on my opinion of Obama,

because nothing has happened yet. If he speaks at this concert, and actually says some kind of anti gay thing, then it would certainly be an issue. If he speaks at this concert and says something about compassion, acceptance, "judge not..." and other actual Christ stuff, what will the Obama bashers say then? Nothing has happened yet.

[zulchzulu]

19. Trying to link Obama with some singer to trash the campaign is intellectually dishonest

So one guy who apparently is a good singer who has an opinion I am absolutely certain that Obama would disagree with who is singing with dozens of other singers makes the whole rally event "a gay bashing fest"?

Talk about being intellectually dishonest...

Should bands that play at rallies be checked to see if they had DUIs, smoked pot, had sex with multiple partners or some other "moral purity" test for fear that the campaign who just wanted them to fill some space with music be labeled as "pro-drunkard", "pro-drug abuse", etc.?

Donnie McClurkin will not have a chance to turn the rally into a "gay bash fest"... he's going to sing some song and then the next act comes out. I wish McClurkin wasn't so confused about his sexuality and wants to overcompensate, but if he sings at the rally, I hope he gets enlightened from the experience that people are people.

I'm also certain that even if Obama decided to tell McClurkin to take a hike, the same people here and elsewhere making it an issue would just hunt for some other issue.

If we really look at the event that's going to happen, here's the schedule:

Friday, October 26, 2007
Doors open at 7:00pm

North Charleston Performing Arts Center
5001 Coliseum Drive
North Charleston, SC 29418

Gospel Performances by:
Mary Mary, Hezekiah Walker, Beverly Crawford

Saturday, October 27, 2007
Doors open at 7:00pm

Greenwood Civic Center
1620 Hwy 72 221 E.
Greenwood, SC 29649

Gospel Performances by:
Byron Cage, Mighty Clouds of Joy, Vanessa Bell Armstrong

Sunday, October 28, 2007 - the only show McClurkin is scheduled to sing
Doors open at 5:00pm

The Township Auditorium
1703 Taylor Street
Columbia, SC 29202

Gospel performances by:
Mary Mary, Donnie McClurkin, Deitrick Haddon, Mighty Clouds of Joy

http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/scembrace

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

23. Smoking pot = endosing Bush's war on homosexuality at the pug convention.

[Bitwit1234]

24. No what difference does this make...remember we still have a free country

and even tho I don't agree with this decision, he has every right to do what he wants. He can make points, in a way, by not caving to public pressure and believing what he stands for.

[IndianaJones]

26. Obama? nt.

[oasis]

25. Michelle's "It's Just a Dream" speech awhile back was a signal for Obamians to

begin working toward 2016. Look for the Obama camp to be making more moves that seem to be "ill-advised".

[Dawgs]

28. Are you fucking kidding me?

I think the same of him. It's part of the reason I like him.

Why don't you ask, 'Based on the way DUers have acted the past few days, is your support of Obama strengthened?' I would answer, DEFINITELY YES to that question.

[Cameron27]

29. What do you mean by "it's part of the reason I like him?"

[Solon]

34. He likes Homophobes I assume...

Over the past two days, I've seen some vicious attacks on homosexuals by Obama supporters.

[jefferson_dem]

42. And i've seen some vicious attacks on Obama supporters by those

who claim to be defending homosexuals too.

Big deal.

[Solon]

43. See, that's the problem...

You see it as no big deal, for some reason, homophobia is acceptable to you.

[jefferson_dem]

45. You're wrong.

I see your irrational ignorance and vitriol as a rather big deal.

You illustrate my inital point well.

[Solon]

46. Irrational my ass, I hate bigots, period...

I don't give a flying fuck who they are, what religion they belong to, or who props them up, the fact is that Obama made a serious error here, and needs to rectify it. If you want to see irrational, talk to your fellow McCloset defenders, insinuating everything from Homosexuality just being a preference, to making this an attack on Christianity itself.

[jefferson_dem]

47. Which is absolutely no worse...

than accusing a fellow DUer of being a homophobe or endorsing gay-bashing if their only "sin" is supporting Obama for President, or even defending the gospel tour.

[Solon]

48. Let's see...

Denigrating Homosexuals as a group and dismissing their and their friends' concerns IS homophobia, period.

Calling out DUers who actually do this is well deserved calling out, period.

[Solon]

52. You cannot honestly say that...

This:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3628257&mesg_id=3628942

This:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3628257&mesg_id=3629030

Or This:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3628257&mesg_id=3628975

Aren't Homophobic, or even worse, a use of their religion as a shield to excuse their homophobia. And these are the posts that weren't deleted! There were far worse posts posted. Don't you DARE equate that with how McCloset defenders were treated.

[jefferson_dem]

59. I agree that...

the first OP is way over-the-top, and, in my view, borders (at least) on abject homophobia.

I'm less troubled by the other two OPs, though neither post comes anywhere close to representing my views or belief system. They just seem religious people couching their worldviews within a religious framework. I can't ridicule that.

There are posts here on DU, in this thread even, in which Obama's supporters are accused of homophobia (which is one of the worst possible things you can accuse another of, in my view) simply because they support the man for President or don't criticize the Gospel Tour. You may not think that is wrong or equivalent to the rhetoric you link to above. I do.

[Solon]

62. The problem is HOW they defend Obama, not that they defend him at all...

When a poster asks: "What's the big deal?" That's simply offensive in the extreme, not to mention some of the misrepresentations, saying that attacking McCloset is attacking Christianity or Religion itself, which is just dumb. In addition to this, if someone's worldview is bigoted, and they are religious, and use that religious framework to justify that worldview, well, let me just say I will ridicule it as often as possible.

[Dawgs]

63. I'm confused. Show me where someone is being a homophobe.

If not, go to hell. You have no idea what I was thinking.

[Solon]

69. Look at post 52. n/t

[ecstatic]

32. faux outrage: McClurkin is mainly known for his popular gospel hits

Stand & We Fall Down. I doubt many people even know about his homophobic tendencies, because he isn't really outspoken about his beliefs. I didn't know until recently, and it's possible that Obama does not know anything about McClurkin's views. Apparently, McClurkin claims to be a reformed ex-homosexual. I don't know too much about it beyond that, and honestly, WHO GIVES A F#CK what some random singer thinks?! Shutup and sing! (
Same goes to Britney Spears, etc.) :shrug:

[Sandaasu]

36. "reformed ex-homosexual"

That's the problem. As far we're concerned, someone like that might as well be in the KKK. It doesn't matter if he's there to talk about that or not. It's simply too offensive to us to be ignored.

I am willing to say there there's a chance he didn't know about this, and Obama can a least partially redeem himself by kicking this guy off the schedule. Either way though, if he's going to be treading the line that he's taking, he needs to be more careful about it than this.

[Solon]

37. Faux Outrage my fucking ass!!!!

This shit just really pisses me off, McCloset is a guy who claims to be "ex-gay" supports the so called "ex-gay" movement that has itself drive Gods knows how many kids to suicide. This asshole says homosexuality is a "curse" and that homosexuality should be destroyed, and you think its no big deal? What the fuck!!!!

[ecstatic]

38. His views would be dangerous if people were listening to them

but I honestly don't think too many people know about his views, and the ones who have heard them know it's pure BS.

[Solon]

39. Apparently he's well known enough to be in an Obama sponsored event...

for Gospel singers. The fact of the matter is that this is an atrocious asshole who should be sent to the fringes of society, not stuck in front of the spotlight, regardless of the content of his songs.

[killbotfactory]

53. He's well known as a gospel singer, not as a homophobe

[Solon]

55. And that makes it even more important to expose him and denigrate him for what he is...

a hate filled asshole.

[terrya]

44. "reformed"?

Oh great, now we're also criminals, according to this bigoted sack of shit.

[ronnykmarshall]

58. REFORMED ??

I didn't know being gay is something one gets "reformed" from.

[Bluebear]

82. "REFORMED"?

[ecstatic]

101. well that's what he calls himself

I don't think anyone takes his message seriously. My thing is, does Obama know? First we have to find out if Obama knows and then go from there.

[killbotfactory]

33. No.

It's a gospel singer, singing at a gospel event. An event Obama will not be attending, only sponsoring. I have no reason to believe that this is an endorsement of the guys views on homosexuality whatsoever.

[jefferson_dem]

41. No.

Reason is simple. He's the best person for the job. This "issue" does not change that.

[Grandrose]

49. Absolutely Not!

Last time I checked the "gospel singer" wasn't on the ballot!
I have problems with other candidates, but at least I respect their right to conduct their campaign the way they see fit...Obama deserves the same!
The more Obama is bashed, if anything, I am more supportive!:applause: :bounce:

[jefferson_dem]

50. Watch out.

Some of the wild-eyed foamers here just might accuse you of homophobia... :bounce:

[Grandrose]

57. No problem.....

I am not homophobic and had a deceased and beloved uncle who was gay.

If you support Obama, you will be accused of something, justified or not!

I am tired of bullies who would not support Obama if their life depended on it!

Could it be AA women voters the wild eyed foamers are concerned about?

I think somebody's supporters want to torpedo outreach to a block of voters they are desperate to keep!

A word to the wise, be careful of those who protest too much, their agenda may be different to yours.

They my friends, are protecting a base of their support...AA women who love gospel music and might take a second look at Obama...just saying!:eyes:

[jefferson_dem]

60. There's something really distasteful about the way some are trying to

"tar and feather" the whole Obama movement. No doubt about it.

[Rhythm and Blue]

51. So you're...more supportive of including a homophobe in the campaign?

Strange.

[Dawgs]

64. I think they are more supportive because of the hateful nature of other candidates supporters.

There is a difference.

[Rhythm and Blue]

67. While I understand the motivation,

the unsavory nature of people attacking a proposal is a piss-poor justification for supporting that proposal.

[Grandrose]

65. A like in 1....homophobe is the key!

I am not homophobic, nor do I believe Obama.
When you can name all of the homophobes in all the campaigns, we can talk.
I guess Obama is only allowed to reach out to voters by methods you deem acceptable?
He cannot win if he cannot reach people and if a gospel concert works, so be it! :think:

[Solon]

70. But why McCloset?

He's not a guy to reach out to, he's not a guy Obama should want to associate himself with, there are, I'm sure, plenty of Gospel singers who aren't hate mongering homophobes that can join this tour, why can't Obama bump McCloset and get someone who is less of an asshole?

[Grandrose]

73. Give me strength......

A grammy winning asshole that some people like to hear SING!
A grammy winning asshole that will sell TICKETS!

Is that clear enough, stop playing dumb:)

[Solon]

75. Uhm, that's quite muddled, to put it simply, I don't give a fuck about that...

The fact that he's a bigoted assholic fuckhead is why I object to him being on the tour, I don't give a shit about his Grammy, being talented doesn't excuse you from bigotry.

[Grandrose]

86. Do not rant and rave at me!

Frankly the fact is.... you do not have the right to dictate to Obama!
Muddled is when you believe only your opinion matters and dismiss others.
There will be a gospel tour, deal with or not. Sorry to be you.
Sorry to be me, for responding to your posts, it will not happen again.

[Solon]

87. Oh, like you are so fucking innocent here, who the fuck is "playing dumb" now?

Why the fuck am I wasting my time with homophobic fuckers like yourself, I have no idea.

[Sandaasu]

79. Oh, so money is more important than LGBT folk

Thanks for clearing that up!

[Grandrose]

96. No ....you are deliberately misunderstanding!

I was responding to the following:

why can't Obama bump McCloset and get someone who is less of an asshole?

[Solon]

99. I think he understood just fine thank you very much...

Its quite obvious what you value here.

[Forkboy]

85. Better to play dumb than be dumb.

Your argument is pathetic and offensive.

[Solon]

90. I think its obvious by now that some people here on DU just don't care about GLBT folks at all...

The fact that they claim to be even human is offensive to me.

[Forkboy]

92. Money & votes are more important than actual people.

Winning at all costs isn't winning at all.

[Bluebear]

95. Thank you. It's a bitter pill to swallow, but important to recognize.

[Grandrose]

104. You are so right...I should never have replied to your post!

Silly me...I guess you have no sense of humor. The smilie was waste of time.
But if I offended you, I apologize.

[Tejanocrat]

54. This is bad, but it isn't as bad as a whole career's worth of triangulation.

[DrFunkenstein]

61. In Comparison to Clinton's Iraq War Support?

I don't even put it up there with Marc Rich.

[CTLawGuy]

66. No

but then again I am not looking for some excuse not to like him . . .

[dbackjon]

68. Obama supporters

Instead of wildly defending an indefensible action, try this response:

"I am deeply disapointed that Senator Obama has chosen to associate with a rabid bigot. His doing so is a mistake. I still support the Senator, but have contacted his campaign letting him know my displeasure".

[Solon]

71. Exactly, yet instead we see many of them showing insensitivity towards homosexuals instead.

To be honest, I'm disappointed, a few have shown maturity on this issue, but the rest are just a disappointment, and that's being generous.

[Forkboy]

72. So far I've only seen a couple do that.

They deserve kudos for doing so.I wish others would follow their admirable lead.

[Sandaasu]

74. Indeed

There are a few like this, but for the most part I'm seeing a lack of concern for our issues, and sometimes outright speech against us. It's quite distressing. It really does seem that many of them don't understand how serious this whole "ex-gay" thing is for us.

[Solon]

76. McCloset advocates for the TORTURE of teenagers to "fix" them of their homosexuality...

Even I wasn't completely aware of how monstrous the "ex-gay" movement was until I read one kids blog on it. I knew it was bullshit, of course, but I wasn't aware of the extent of damage actually occurs for teenagers.

[Bullet1987]

78. Obama doesn't support McClurkin's views...so NO!!

[Sandaasu]

80. Then why not give him the boot?

This is a serious issue for us. As we see it, McCloset (I'm going to start using that, good stuff!) and those like him have done great harm to many people, including their deaths. The worst kind of death too. Suicide because you believe that you're flawed, and that God won't accept you as you are. That you must be some horrible person because God won't "fix" you like how these guys claim to have been "redeemed."

I've seen it first-hand, and have spent a lot of time trying to help those who have been damaged by this kind of thing. It's horrible, and a candidate that will so directly endorse someone that exposes these views openly is simply unacceptable.

[Solon]

81. So does that make Obama Religious or an Ant-religious Atheist?

You were the one who equated bigotry of this sort with being religious, answer the question.

[Bluebear]

84. Oh yeah, Mr. "The anti-religion atheist 'types'" don't matter. nt

[Bullet1987]

88. What the hell are you talking about?

I already know Obama is religious...as I AM? The people I called anti-religious were some of the posters on DU. Read before you speak out of your @$$!!!

[Solon]

91. I did read, your OP in that other thread is offensive to religious people who AREN'T homophobes...

like me.

[Bullet1987]

93. Well don't twist my words and say I said things I didn't

because you're confused about what I meant.

[Solon]

102. I didn't see ANY broadbrushes against religious people until some Obama defenders brought it up...

first. Explain that.

[Bluebear]

107. He's mad that religious people can't be anti-gay, as it's their personal belief.

And if you call them on it, you are anti-religion. It's a very convenient ferris wheel.

[Solon]

108. I know, actually had a Christian from yesterday practically say that homophobia is a necessary...

part of Christian beliefs. Had another who insinuated that if he stated anything more about his beliefs he'd be TSed. Think about that.

[Bluebear]

83. Then why is he touring with him?

[rogue emissary]

89. He isn't touring with the guy.

[Bluebear]

94. Ah, just sponsoring the tour then?

[rogue emissary]

98. The guy is known for being a gospel singer and it's a gospel tour.

[Bluebear]

100. Oh, so as long as he sings pretty his personal views don't count?

[rogue emissary]

105. They do and the event hasn't even occurred.

typo edit, I think his view do count.

[Bluebear]

106. edited

[mrreowwr_kittty]

115. Seriously, you'd think the guy was his running mate the way these people are going on. nt

[dbackjon]

103. Then why invite him to sing?

And why defend that decision to invite him? Why not just do what I suggested??

[rogue emissary]

109. When did Obama defend the decision?

Your the first to poster to write about a official Obama response to this situation.

[dbackjon]

116. Not talking about Obama - all the DU Obamans that are..

[rogue emissary]

120. I'm sure there are some who are blindly defending him.

Just like their are some that are wildly attacking him.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

113. No, Obama supporters (and others) should contact the campaign to find out what happened

Your statement is accusatory; it implies that Obama was fully aware of the singer's views and was choosing to appear with him despite it.

[dbackjon]

117. I've called, and e-mailed.

No response yet.

[rogue emissary]

119. Exactly, I had no clue about who and what this guy has said . .

till I came on to DU yesterday.

[Catherine Vincent]

97. No.

If O'Bama wins the nomination, I will still vote for him.

[illinoisprogressive]

110. no. you will never agree 100 percent with anyone. it's stupid to be reactionary on one thing.

[Bluebear]

112. Yeah, George Wallace would have been a great President. It's stupid to be reactionary on one thing.

[elizm]

114. Absolutely not. nt

[ShortnFiery]

118. Simply, NO! :-) n/t