No, there is not hate coming from both sides (or why some Obama defenders are wrong)

[ruggerson]

There is not hate coming from both sides on this issue.

That is an excuse propogated by some religious people to give themselves and their religion a pass on the issue of homophobia.

What they're forgetting is that in every country in the world, this is not just a religious issue, but a civil one as well, and that it is too often organized religion, and its overzealous adherents, that are driving the secular world's human civil rights fight against gays and lesbians.

For gays and lesbians and their straight allies to fight back against institutionalized bigotry, whether secularly or religiously based, is hardly anti-religious nor is it hateful. When blacks took to the streets in the South to protest a system, propogated by both white religion and historical culture, that rendered them second class citizens, they were not espousing hatred of whites or of white people's religion. They were fighting for their lives against hateful bigotry.

Much of the secular rightwing anti-gay movement today is fueled, like it or not, by religiously inspired bigotry.

The movement to deny gay and lesbian citizens the right of marriage is trumpeted in many churches, both white and black, wherein the fervor is organized, channeled and spilled out into the streets and into secular, civil society with the ferocity of a divinely inspired jihad.

And then gay people somehow get labeled anti-religious, because they fight back against those who would oppress them using Caesar's law as well as God's?

There are no gay people pushing for civil laws to outlaw evangelical Christians from marrying each other.

There are no gay people pushing for civil laws to outlaw evangelical Christians from fighting in the army for the country of their birth.

There are no gay people pushing for civil laws to deny evangelical Christians the right not to be discriminated against in employment and housing.

There are no gay people pushing for civil laws to originate or perpetuate second class citizenhood for evangelical Christians or any other religious group.

Yet, evangelical Christians and others are doing all those things and more to gays and lesbians.

Your private, religious belief system ceases to be your unchallenged entitlement when you use it as a club in the civil sector to dispossess people of their basic human rights and worth.

No, there is not hate coming from both sides. This is truly a one way street.

[ShortnFiery]

1. Regardless of who wears the Sheriff's Hat, "self-righteousness" looks poorly on all peoples.

:shrug:

[Solon]

8. Self-righteousness is PERFECTLY justified in this case, I've seen some vile shit on this board...

and it is simply inexcusable, DUers comparing Homosexuality to Alcoholism. I post a quote from yet another group of singers on the Obama tour, who stated that Homosexuality is comparable to being a Murderer or a Prostitute, and when I state this, do the Obama defenders condemn this bigotry? No, they excuse it, even attack me as anti-religious, of all fucking things.

[ShortnFiery]

10. With humbleness and profound respect for all, IMO, Self-Righteousness is "hate" justified.

I'm sorry but I'm not sensing any "love" here.

Please, I implore you to reconsider what Obama stands for? He can't "school" every supporter. :(

[ruggerson]

16. He doesn't have to give bigotry a public platform

[ShortnFiery]

18. He's not, what if we do a background check on all who support other candidates?

There would be wife beaters, drug addicts, homo-phobes, etc. etc.

IMO, it's hypocritical to extrapolate unless you will do it FOR ALL CANDIDATES' SUPPORTERS and for ALL Social Injustices. :shrug:

[Solon]

30. So you have to be Omniscience in order to call out bigotry? Bullshit! Stop with the excuses!

What the fuck is your malfunction?

[mark414]

31. while i mostly agree with you,

self-righteousness is never justified

[Solon]

33. I'm Self-Righteous against the Phelps Clan, the KKK, Aryan Nations, etc.

I don't see what so fucking different between these assholes and the assholes right here on this board.

[jefferson_dem]

37. So you are comparing some of your fellow DUers to those scum?

Sorry to hear that. I think you've lost total touch with reality on that one.

[Solon]

38. Hell yes I am, anyone who excuses bigotry as if it were acceptable is a bigot as well...

I don't see what's so complicated about that.

[mark414]

41. wow you're crazy

[Solon]

43. Look back on the posts of the past 3 days on this board of hatred against GBLT people and you...

would agree.

[DemFemme]

42. I hope you're not referring to me re: comparing homosexuality to alcoholism.

If you reread that thread more carefully, you'll see I was referring to the use of the word "curse" in another culture (Irish) in
direct response to a poster who used the term in a question to me. I also explicitly said there was no comparison between
alcoholism and homosexuality to forestall any misconceptions.

[Solon]

46. I was referring to you, and you still excuse bigotry, regardless of your intentions. n/t

[DemFemme]

49. How dishonest of you to say that when I have explicitly stated otherwise more than once.

But then again, that's the only way you can demonize people who have done nothing to deserve it.

[Solon]

66. Show me links to posts you made condemning either McCloset or...

any of the other homophobes who made their views public. Put up or shut up.

[Ethelk2044]

9. you are so correct. There is hate from both sides.

[ruggerson]

12. Fighting bigotry is rarely polite or civil

Evil does not collapse graciously. And just repeating your tag line of "hate coming from both sides" over and over doesn't make it any more true than the first time you wrote it.

[Solon]

27. You don't have room to talk calling Homosexuality a "preference" and calling this a "Gay Issue"....

Sounds like bigotry to me.

[sniffa]

57. ah, so that's who that iggy is

[Sapphocrat]

54. Glad to see you finally admit it. n/t

[NMMNG]

58. Define this "hate" you see coming from the GLBT side

Please, enlighten us. We're all waiting.

[racaulk]

61. *crickets*

I don't think you'll get an answer on this Buffy, which is too bad, because I would love to hear the answer. I'm just not seeing the "hate" coming from the GLBT side.

:shrug:

[NMMNG]

64. I expect as much

She hasn't answered the other question I asked her either. :shrug: All allegations and no real answers.

[msongs]

14. when christians come after you with baseball bats and barbed wire, you will "see the light" nt

[ShortnFiery]

22. You're extrapolating ONE supporter (one who BTW doesn't promote violence) to the candidate.

IMO, this is a intellectually dishonest game because the other candidates have supporters who are "even more dangerous" but covert. :scared:

[ruggerson]

25. There are other acts on the same stage who have said similarly bigoted things

so, it's not just ONE supporter, as you're trying to maintain. Regardless, the premise of your argument is flawed. No one is angry at Obama because he has some supporters who are homophobes. People are angry at him because he is putting them up on stage at a political rally. When they are used politically, they cease to be just performers but also become SYMBOLS.

[NMMNG]

28. All four singers on the tour are open homophobes

Not just McClurkin. All of them. And if you don't think that "conversion therapy" is violent you don't know jack.

[ruggerson]

50. or that the entire concept of "ex-gayness"

is inherently violent. The attitude behind it kills more gay teens than anything else.

[dsc]

53. Just today I spoke to a fellow teacher about a student of hers

Basicly he was brought up by one of my students when we were disucssing a study in my stats class. He told his parents he was gay and they said "no you can't be". So upon seeing he was in this teacher's class I asked her to keep an eye on him for his work habits and his behavior for any changes. I am sort of a mench that way so to speak. But I long for the day when that no longer is necessary.

[NMMNG]

2. Sing it, brother

:applause:

[dsc]

3. Thanks for posting this

I am fed up to my eyeballs with being called anti religious.

[ShortnFiery]

7. This reminds me, on a VERY small scale of the time Women were denied ...

a Golf's Country Club's Membership. This was an elite club on the PGA tour. The women activists turned to Tiger Woods, hoping against hope that, as an African American, he could *understand* how wrong discrimination. Now, no judgments toward Tiger Wood, but he commented basically, "This is not my dance."

My point: The people who support Obama JUST LIKE the people who campaign for Hillary are NOT ALL stellar citizens in every sense of the word. However, we should hesitate to EXTRAPOLATE these *individual's* values to the candidate endorsed.

It's the extrapolation that's just plain sad. Just like it's Tiger Woods CHOICE to not take up a feminist cause, it's not Obama's place to CENSOR every supporter.

We know Obama stands for gay rights - but - ye of little faith? :shrug:

[NMMNG]

15. Was Tiger Woods directly connected to the club?

Was it HIS CLUB?

This gospel concert is part of Obama's campaign. Therefore everything and everybody in it is directly connected to him. If he doesn't want their views to reflect on him then he needs to expunge them from the tour. But he's made it clear that he's content enough to have a contingent of rabid homophobes perform for his campaign. That says a great deal to GLBT people. That says he doesn't give a flying fig about them no matter what other lip service he's given to them. Actions speak much louder than words.

[ShortnFiery]

21. What about the other candidates? Do you really wish to start a campaign supporters

war because I'd venture to say that there are many AS POWERFUL but covert homo-phobes who side with the other candidates? However, beating up on Obama is such an "easy target" but it solves NOTHING because he is, in his heart and soul, pro gay rights. :shrug:

[Solon]

32. I don't give a shit about the other campaigns...

If they support or get support from bigots, I will call them out, already called out Hillary for it, I'll do it for ANY candidate, even my own. I fucking hate hypocrisy almost as much as I hate bigotry, period.

[ShortnFiery]

35. OK, that's all I can do ... point out that I'm not "feeling the objectivity" nor the "lack of hate."

I'm a chilling out ... some folks are on a tear to disrespect Obama but I caution you, gospel singer homophobes are not the MOST POWERFUL Presidential hopeful supporters. It's the ones that you can not see that are the MOST DANGEROUS.

Me? I prefer an enemy who "comes clean" even if it's an atrocious attitude to a smarmy covert discriminator. THEN, we can open up dialogs to help change their "off-balance" prejudices. If we can open up conversation, NOT HATE, we can change people.

[Solon]

36. Hate to copy and paste from my own posts, but here goes...

So we deal with them like we do all other people who hate, we shame them, confront them, and kick them to the fringes of society, we do not reward them by putting them in the spotlight and mainstreaming their views through exposure on tours for a popular political candidate.

Only a slight edit to integrate the subject line with the content of the post.

[ShortnFiery]

39. OK, last comment: How do you truly know in your heart that you can NOT reach misguided people?

It doesn't make them EVIL incarnate to have disgusting prejudices. It makes them insensitive and seriously misguided.

Are we to just "write off" some people who can be reached to change and fully accept gay people as members of our communities?

Communication is key - the American People are finally at an somewhat objective point to listen to dialog and reason.

My last comment of this evening: It's tragic, rise above the hate OR at least please consider NOT reciprocating it?

[Solon]

40. When the Mary Mary Duet(also on Obama tour) compares being a Homosexual to being a Murderer...

Are they misguided? Hell no! They are EVIL and need to be kicked to the curb, period. I don't coddle these fucking people, period.

[jefferson_dem]

19. So true.

On several occasions, i've seen Obama supporters shamed and called all sorts of nasty names for the mere fact that they continue to support the man, even in light of the recent controversy.

We know Obama is on as firm a grounding on gay rights issues as any of the "top-tier" Democratic candidates. Some who suggest otherwise just might have *ulterior motives*...

[dsc]

29. There are thousands of Gospel singers out there

not all of them are bigots. He didn't have to use a bigotted one.

[Solon]

4. We must fess up to the fact that these defenders don't care about GBLT people...

They either excuse or ignore the most vile bigotry against my GLBT brothers and sisters, and they piss me off! These fuckers are homophobic assholes, they make excuses, all the while saying they are on the GLBT side, well, with friends like these, who needs enemies.

[sniffa]

60. agreed

fuck them. and don't Let them beat you down.

[MuseRider]

5. Well said.

You and I may disagree on many other things but in this fight we are side by side. :applause:

[terrya]

6. Second recommendation.

We are NOT anti-religion. That's one of the saddest accusations I've seen the past few days. What about Dignity, the organization of GLBT Roman Catholics? Are THEY anti-religion? Hardly. Nor are the millions of GLBT churchgoing, relgious people.

Thanks for this post.

[jefferson_dem]

11. Hate and reactionary negative stereotyping is always wrong...

I think we can agree on that.

[Ethelk2044]

13. I agree

[Withywindle]

17. Recommended, thank you!

I was--to some extent still am--an Obama supporter but I can't defend this. I think it's just awful.

I wonder which comes first, the homophobia or the religion. Homosexuality is hardly a major issue in the Bible. Jesus never mentioned it. It's not one of the Ten Commandments. Yet the bigotry that uses religion to justify itself acts like bashing gays--oh, excuse me, "hating the sin but loving the sinner" :puke: is a major cornerstone of the faith, like the Shahadah is to Islam or something. Therefore, if you attack bigotry you're attacking their religion.

I call bullshit on that. If Christianity were really based on that, it'd be a pretty sick and pathetic excuse for a religion. But it isn't. Homophobia comes from some childish gut feeling that it's "icky" and then tries to dress itself up in holy robes after the fact. And then the bigots claim we have to "respect" their bigotry because it's "their faith."

No. We DON'T have to respect bigotry, whatever the lame excuse. I don't respect it. I think the idea that gay or lesbian relationships are inherently "morally" inferior to straight ones deserves exactly the same amount of respect as the idea that left-handed people are possessed by demons. I don't care what spiritual woo-woo you put on it, and I don't care what atrocious early-17th-century aphorisms you dress it up it. It's an ignorant superstition, and it hurts real people. End of story. And I don't want to support a candidate who "respects" it either.

[Ethelk2044]

20. I do not see anything about Reverend Harold Mayberry. I wonder why

Could it be because he is associated with Hillary. Although he has similar views nothing being said.
:shrug:

[NMMNG]

23. I don't support Hillary

So don't go there.

[ShortnFiery]

24. Excellent point. We could, hyper-focus on ...

THIS supporter of HRC?

See how this smarmy political game can soon morph out of control? :shrug:

[suziedemocrat]

26. I'm trying to stay out of controversial subjects here because I'm too thin skinned.

But.... What is Obama thinking associating with someone like McClurkin ????

Go on, criticize my grammar or spelling or use of multiple question marks. I can take it. (I think?) And I really do like Barack Obama, I just think this was a huge mistake.

[Solon]

34. And that is the question that every Obama supporter should be asking...

It takes a big person to admit that a candidate they like or support made a mistake and should rectify it, I guess its too much to ask many of these Obama supporters to follow your example.

Props to you. :toast:

[suziedemocrat]

44. It's almost like touring with a religious group that includes a Holocaust denier.

This isn't someone who is uncomfortable with gay marriage. This is someone who is basically denying that homosexuality exists; or is defining it as nothing more than "sinful" behavior. It's really a slap in the face to the real struggles homosexuals face to say that it is a choice. Still, Obama seems to be anything but homophobic, so I wonder why his campaign made this huge error?

[JerseygirlCT]

45. Yes, well said.

(And just as a btw, this is coming from a straight member of the Episcopal church...

We're not all evil, I assure you.)

[ruggerson]

47. Exactly

Bishop Spong is a veritable saint.

[niceypoo]

48. Obama is not anti-gay

Nor is he a bigot by association.
nor is he guilty by osmosis.

It is a moot issue.

[Bluebear]

51. It's moot to you, niceypoo.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

52. Very well stated, and your post reveals the limits of "unity" as a governing philosophy

The David Broder types always want "unity," by which they mean that everyone should agree with them. Unity isn't all hope and kisses. Throughout history, unity has usually been achieved by throwing the un-unified types overboard until you're left with a homogeneous population.

"Unity!" is a scam when the price of unity is splitting the difference in instances where one side has done nothing wrong.

I have never known (or even seen on TV) a gay person who wanted more than peaceful coexistence as a full citizen.

I can name memebers of my own family that think gay people should be in re-education camps.

The solution is not a compromise whereby gay people should spend half the year in re-education camps.

[Zuiderelle]

55. Yes yes yes yes yes! And thank you for posting this.

"Your private, religious belief system ceases to be your unchallenged entitlement when you use it as a club in the civil sector to dispossess people of their basic human rights and worth."

Perfect.

[sniffa]

56. outstanding thread

k&r :thumbsup:

and i aLready see the screaming ignores, so you touched a nerve. good on ya.

[ruggerson]

65. thanks sniffa

:hi:

[youthere]

59. Proud to Kick and Rec.!

Well said. Thank you ruggerson!

[IndianaJones]

62. excellent. nt.

[racaulk]

63. Excellent post, ruggerson!

Glad to K&R this one! :thumbsup:

:applause: