It's just politics, they tell me.

[madfloridian]

When our Democrats ignored our calls about Iraq, ignored the marches, ignored the emails and voted to give Bush unprecedented powers....we were told it was just politics.

We were told we had to appear strong on keeping our country safe. It was simply a political move so we could win.

When we begged them not to pass that bankruptcy bill in 2005, the one in which people who are caregivers and people who have medical debt could lose their homes to bankruptcy...we were told it was just politics.

When the Democrats somehow managed to give Bush his agenda in the courts by refusing to really fight on Alito and Roberts...it was just politics we were told. We heard from some that maybe a Democrat would want their judges passed also, so we needed to go along.

Women's choice matters were already off the agenda by the time the judges were appointed, because it was good politics to appease the "abortion greys"...you know, the ones who were undecided. As it turns out we passed a plan to cut abortions by 98%. A Supreme Court ruling made sure that doctors can now spend up to two years in jail for using a certain procedure late term to save the life of a woman.

It was just good politics.

The Democrats are either being mum or being hawkish on Iran. I have at one time or the other this year heard most major Democrats say how dangerous that country is to our safety.

For the sake of good politics, appearing strong on National Security...we will probably not attempt to stop Bush from bombing that country.

I got through last week to the state party here. I had talked to some at county level earlier about the way our state was actiing toward other states and toward the authority of the national party.

I did not get a good answer, I really just got asked to go along and get along to win. I have always done that in the past. I guess they expect and assume it will happen in the future.

It is just the way politics works, I have been told by state leaders and often here at DU. I have been told it is just the way things happen.

I hear from a friend who attended the convention that he saw several buttons with the name of the chairman and a screw sticking through the name. I saw a picture in the paper and posted it here at DU.

I was told it was just politics, all in good fun, and just a form of free speech. Only a few recognized it was harmful to the party.

I have noticed a lot of doublespeak about plans for Social Security. I wondered why the think tanks which form Democratic policy are working with Republicans and with groups like the Heritage Foundation. Their history on Social Security is nothing to brag about.

Turns out it is all just bipartisan politics. It turns out none of us who were upset really understood anything at all about Social Security or much of anything else.

It is now more about "anything goes" politics and winning than it is about decency, being right, and having a moral center. And people who like me think first about the rightness and wrongness of an issue, and not so much its use poltically...are left out in the cold with nowhere to turn.

[truedelphi]

1. K & R'ed n/t

[acmavm]

2. I'll second it.

[Perry Logan]

3. Thenwhy have the Democrats showed the highest Democratic unity score in 51 years?

If it were as bad as you say, this wouldn't be true.

"President Bush's success rating in the Democratic-controlled House has fallen this year to a half-century low, and he prevailed on only 14 percent of the 76 roll call votes on which he took a clear position.

"So far this year, Democrats have backed the majority position of their caucus 91 percent of the time on average on such votes. That marks the highest Democratic unity score in 51 years."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1728952&mesg_id=1728952
http://public.cq.com/docs/cqt/news110-000002576765.html

Don't let the media rhetoric fool you. The Democrats have acquitted themselves quite well--especially given their bare majority in both houses, and a relentlessly obstructionist Republican minority.

[madfloridian]

4. What I posted is not media rhetoric.

It is truth on major issues of our time.

I don't disagree they have done some good things, but they are falling down on many things that matter and still listening to the wrong folks.

And I add a comment about the issues....we take "issues" off the table to make it easier to win....women's rights go.

[Demeter]

37. The Unity Is Against the Democratic Leadership, However

We don't like being screwed over by our own party.

[annabanana]

60. Because the Repugs are clearly and demonstrably horrible and

there's nowhere else to go.

[OKNancy]

5. My moral center says I want to win in 2008

and so does your hero, Howard Dean.. the ultimate Democrat.
I'm thrilled with our candidates and am doing a happy dance at the prospect of kicking Republican ass.

[madfloridian]

6. I want to win. I don't want us to lose any more of our souls.

Like we did in Iraq, like we are still doing in Iraq. Like we are about to do in Iran because we need to sound tough.

Why do you think I don't want to win?

I want to win. But I want us to regain our moral clarity.

And enough of the Dean stuff, ok? I have said lately he will not speak up on important issues now, and I do not think that is right.

I am not worshipping or stupid, and I have no heroes. He has made himself less than he should be by parroting happy talk.

I am surprised you speak that way to me, as though I have less pride in my party and country than you do.

Some are using that as way to make my voice irrelevant.

[OKNancy]

7. Honestly, I'm pretty tired of the "woe is me"

crowd, and the hand-wringing and exaggeration.
I have a feeling it all boils down to your dislike of Hillary Clinton.
You are making a value judgment that people who support someone you don't like are
soulless and lack a moral center. Who's "moral clarity"? What "you" say it is?

[madfloridian]

9. I am tired of people like you putting down people who see things

that are going wrong.

I do NOT post against Hillary. You are going overboard here.

[bettyellen]

17. woe is me crowd? i'm making a value judgement - that's pathetic bullshit, and a RW meme.

and not okay, nancy. not okay to fracture the party using right wing memes. in fact it's pretty fucked up.

[NewHampster]

21. ooh I like you

Smart Nancy I say.

[madfloridian]

22. One thing I have noticed.

When any of us here try to speak about things like going to war, or any of the things I mentioned in the OP....why are we insulted? Could you explain?

We care about our troops, and we care that they are dying. We care the Iraqis are being killed in large numbers. We many of us don't think our country will long survive in its present form if we don't stand up for things now.

Why are we made fun of and insulted for caring about right and wrong?

Is that what we have become?

[NewHampster]

25. I don't think you were insulted

I think you and many on DU just think on a different level than others of us.

I agree one hundred percent with progressive/liberal/moral issues of My Democratic party but I disagree with the priorities of this time and point in history.

We, and I guess I speak for myself, see the current state of affairs not as the result of anything to do with morals or issues. It is the result of wrong wing, Nazis taking over our country illegally and using any methods they can to retain power. Getting rid of them and regaining power for us, the people is the only thing that matters right now. We have to be prepared to fight a nasty lousy ugly campaign and we will. We have to win period.

Once we win, and not until, we can squabble about how to accomplish our goals as democrats. Once we control the congress, the white house and maybe the court then we can openly as free Americans discuss how we go forward.

If you think putting aside my personal needs and priorities for the good of the country is wrong, then so be it.

[madfloridian]

27. I guess my point is...

that we said and heard the same things in 02 and 04..Get out and vote, we have to win or we lose so much.

But we have given Bush so many things he wanted, and looks like he will get his Iran War. The Supreme Court is pretty well set already, though a Democratic president would be best.

Looks like the leaders of the party are going to do what they want anyway about war and Social Security, and bills that cause the helpless to lose their homes.

I want to be hopeful, and yes, it is insulting to be talked down to like I am here. I am not stupid. I am well-educated and intelligent.

But I do see things coming to point where those of us in the party who see rightness and wrongness before political expediency...are going to be left behind.

It is starting here already. I have 3 posts in which I never said anything to insult. Yet you should read some of the comments. Really read them. Yes, those of us who are showing concern about our party are being put down for those concerns.

[NewHampster]

28. I bet you also miss the old conventions

that meant something. 2 or 3 ballots and up all night.

[madfloridian]

29. Not really. I never went to one. I care more now about truth and honesty.

than I do about other stuff.

Look what has happened in Iraq. What a horribly sad tragedy. Why are so few here not concerned about the same thing in Iran.

Why are our Democrats working with Republican think tanks to plot strategy for Social Security and for the Iran?

[Name removed]

31. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[truckin]

I'm with you madfloridian. I posted about an encounter I had

with my freshman congressman yesterday about Iran. He basically told me he doesn't believe that the admin will illegally start this war and I got the feeling that congress has no plan of action if Bush does.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2154254

[nashville_brook]

38. i would feel more comfortable with the "sit tight till we win" idea, IF and ONLY if history

can provide PROOF that that's a reasonable position.

[paulk]

41. good post

:toast:

[madfloridian]

8. I thought you should be the first to know. You and your happy dance.

I got so damn tired of the way people used my support of Dean to counter anything I said....that I took off my sig line just now.

I think he needs to take stands. He won't, but someone needs to do so.

I will continue to post about what I see happening in Florida, and the unbelievable lack of respect this state has for anyone else.

But I will not allow anyone here to dismiss my words any longer by saying I have a "hero".

It is childish, and it should be over and done with. 04 was almost 4 years ago.

It is time for our Democrats to all speak up on things that matter.

So I took off my sig line. Just for you and your happy dance.

Peace.

[OKNancy]

11. I happen to love Dean and was using it

as a way to point out that Dean is not all down in the mouth and saying Democrats have lost their moral center.

[madfloridian]

12. He can't. I can. That is what I intend to do. So how do you feel about Iran?

Cause we are going there next.

[IndianaJones]

14. I'll lay odds if you place a minimum wager. nt.

[madfloridian]

23. We have to go into Iran. We have to look tough.

I think too many in our party firmly and entirely believe that. We wil attack. We have to be tough.

[NewHampster]

26. BS

I know of no one who wants to attack Iran or thinks it smart. Some people really think the recent vote may help avoid war.

[madfloridian]

30. I hope you are right.

But I don't hear much except drumbeats. And our most likely nominee is very silent.

[OKNancy]

43. Good morning, I had real life to take care of

hate to kick this, since it's been quiet, however.....
How do I feel about Iran? I think it would be terrible to go to war with Iran, or to even bomb them.
I think the whole war on terra is a crock. But it is not Democrats who want it. It's Bush and the neocons. Saying, as Feingold did, that Iran is a threat or a cause of concern doesn't mean that Democrats want to go to war.
Additionally, DUers have been predicting war with Iran since 2004. I saved a thread from March of this year with a bunch of hand-wringing about how it was going to be next week. I guess it got deleted, because it's not there anymore.
I don't believe we will go to war with Iran. I just don't think it is feasible. I believe all this crap going on now is sword rattling. I can assure you if, by any chance the Bushies are stupid enough to do something, the Democrats will NOT fall in line.

[madfloridian]

50. Iraq was not feasible either. Congrats on a real life.

Hubby and I and our five kids and grandkids we never had one of those.

[Danger Mouse]

55. I sincerely hope that you are right.

[nashville_brook]

39. veeeeeeeery interesting that party "loyalists" take issue with your Dean avatar...

he IS the party leader, is he not?

[jmp]

24. GO TEAM!

It doesn't REALLY matter what Democrats stand for, or if they stand for anything at all, just so long as they win.

[frebrd]

10. K&R n/t

[madfloridian]

13. Just politics....forget the issues.

From the words of George Lakoff about forgetting things that really matter to our party.

..."My colleague, Glenn W. Smith, has pointed to the DLC strategy of getting as many "swing voters" as possible and the minimum number of base voters needed to win. "

...."But worst of all, the DLC has been cowed by the conservatives. They have drunk the conservative Kool-Aid. As Harold Ford intimated in his debate with Markos Moulitsas: To win you have be a hawk on foreign policy, a social conservative on abortion and gay marriage, and not raise taxes. Nonsense

Real moderation

[tnlefty]

15. So, how many people do you know who are sick of "playing politics"

or "sick of the games"? I know many on both the right and the left who are sick of the double speak, the deals to just get things done instead of standing up for the correct course of action for us, "the mythical little people".

I made up my mind a few years ago that all that falls under the umbrella of "playing politics" leads to the apathy that is so prevalent and to the numbers of people who just don't vote. Forget being active in any way what so ever, they honestly feel as if nothing they do matters because of the deals being made behind the scenes and 'just playing politics', or it's just politics'.

[cuke]

16. Don't believe them

it's really a hoe-down

[lips]

18. What your describing

is economics, not politics, I'm afraid. Representatives don't exchange money they exchange people's lives. They don't represent people, they represent the exchange of money, through demigogical charade.

[cuke]

20. What an interesting way to put it

I don't know if agree with you, but you certainly have a thought-provoking way of saying it. Thanks

[madfloridian]

19. It's just politics...anything goes.

Iraqi children abused

BAGHDAD, 25 October 2007 (IRIN) - Iraqi NGOs have raised concerns about the condition of children in local prisons, saying they are abused and tortured during interrogation.

"Children are being treated as adults in Iraqi prisons and our investigations have shown that they are being abused and tortured," said Khalid Rabia'a, a spokesman for the Prisoners' Association for Justice (PAJ).

"Our investigation started after families brought their five sons to our organisation looking for psychological help for their children who were recently released from prison, and what we found out was shocking," Rabia'a added.

According to Rabia'a, child prisoners between 13 and 17 are being accused of supporting insurgents and militias. Most were detained during Iraqi army military operations in the Baghdad neighbourhoods of Adhamiya, Latifiya, Alawi, Doura and Hay al-Adel.

"The five children showed signs of torture all over their bodies. Three had marks of cigarettes burns over their legs and one couldn't speak as the shock sessions affected his conversation," Rabia'a said. "It is against international law that protects children and we call for interventions in all Iraqi prisons to save the lives of these children."

We had to show we were strong on national security. Former president Bill Clinton said he defended Bush against the left, and the approved of what was being done there.

Former President Clinton has revealed that he continues to support President Bush's decision to go to war in Iraq but chastised the administration over the abuses at Abu Ghraib prison.

"I have repeatedly defended President Bush against the left on Iraq, even though I think he should have waited until the U.N. inspections were over," Clinton said in a Time magazine interview that will hit newsstands Monday, a day before the publication of his book "My Life."

Clinton, who was interviewed Thursday, said he did not believe that Bush went to war in Iraq over oil or for imperialist reasons but out of a genuine belief that large quantities of weapons of mass destruction remained unaccounted for.

...."I want it to have been worth it, even though I didn't agree with the timing of the attack," Clinton said"

Defending Bush against the Left

Which of these buttons is politics, and which is bordering on using the tactics of ridicule against a party leader. According to many here all are politics as usual. I strongly disagree.



I guess we justify anything now.

[Danger Mouse]

53. That thing about the kids in Iraqi prisons...it's just too horrible...

how could they...the bastards...the damn bastards... :cry: :puke:

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

33. That is over 5 years he thinks I have fooled everyone...would be funny...

if it were not such a terrible personal attack on me. I would like to laugh, but not feeling much like it.

[AmBlue]

35. I'm with you, madfloridian

And I'm also from Florida. I think when it's time for elections, people get mean. And many aren't looking at the real issues. The Dems have so let us all down, running on promises to end the war and then reneging. It's the old bait and switch and it's damn depressing. It's obvious that we are a people without representative leadership and it is depressing. The media is complicit in cramming Hillary and Obama down our throats and neither of them have the moral fortitude to stand up to the United Corporations of America and change the status quo.

I hear you loud and clear and must say... you speak for me. And as for Repug plants, I'd say that the screwballs making such accusations might want to take a look in the mirror.

[paulk]

64. the Dems didn't run on promises to end the war

the number one reason Democrats gained control of the Congress was corruption, according to post election polling. Republican corruption that voters finally got sick of. And most of those seats that switched over were in conservative districts, where a conservative Democrat replaced a conservative Republican.

So they didn't renege on anything - and if you can come up with some magic formula to overcome a filibuster with less than 60 votes, let me know. Let Harry Reid in on it, too. The President has had less success with this Congress than any in recent memory.


Your post is nothing but a generic trash on Democrats, based on no facts. Maybe you're the one who should check out a mirror.

[janx]

34. Part of this is that the American electorate is being fed by

media who care more about turning a profit than they do about reporting what's going on in our government. People are so easily swayed by the media, even those devoted political junkies who post here.

:shrug:

[bonito]

36. Great post!

Recommended!

[nashville_brook]

40. "politics" have replaced the Constitution.

"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total. I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

[crickets]

61. I've been thinking a lot about Barbara Jordan lately

She and those of her caliber are sorely needed and missed right now.

[nashville_brook]

63. citizens -- "those of her caliber" -- they're *citizens*

i've been thinking a lot about that lately too. the best i can come up with is that they're people who take their citizenship with an equal dose of integrity. they aren't corporate shills. they're citizens who participate in government for the old, out-of-style reason of citizenship.

god, i sound like my grandmother! :evilgrin:

[crickets]

72. Point taken, heh

Citizenship and civic duty, what concepts. Your grandmother sounds cool to me!

[Cronopio]

42. "left out in the cold with nowhere to turn" ?

You have a moral center - how are you "out in the cold"?

The people who are "out in the cold" are the ones who won't have an argument when their own politics takes away their job, their livelihood, and the civility of the society that they depend on. They're the ones who are still convincing themselves that "politics as usual" will bail them out.

The knowledge that you weren't one of the "good Germans" may just be the only solace available when "politics as usual" blows up in everyone's faces, and the people who hold on to their moral center in a very amoral political game will be the only ones who will have it.

If politics betrayed you, well, politics betrays everyone in the end. *You* didn't betray your moral center or your decency.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

44. I agree with you wholeheartedly

I have a lot of the same concerns and worries that you have about most of our major Democratic members of Congress. I go to bed every night now worrying about Bush bombing Iran and what would happen to our troops in Iraq & Afghanistan and our country if he did that and with the full realization that Bush will mostly get a free pass to continue doing whatever he pleases with our military and foreign policy no matter what the majority of people want or think or what the consequences thereof might be. A lot of BAD legislation and bad judicial nominations have gotten through Congress since Bush has been President and while, except in the Senate for a brief time in 2001-2002 and beginning this year, Congressional Democrats may have been technically powerless (although the Republicans seem to be wildly successful in their current obstruction of the Democratic agenda) to stop it, did so many have to HELP him get what he wants? Being somewhat pragmatic, I realize that sometimes going along to get along may be the best strategy, particularly on issues where is more of a difference of opinion on dollar amounts for certain programs than on substantive issues, but there are simply times where our party needs to take a principled stand against repugnant and vile things like this (mis-)Administration's condoning of torture, Gitmo, military commission "trials", rampant corporate cronyism, illegal wiretapping, prolific (and possibly illegal) use of "signing statements", Bush/GOP attempts to redistribute Social Security, and, most importantly, preventing the launching/escalation of unnecessary "wars of choice". Otherwise, what do we stand for and what good is it if we have to put up with or, worse, support VERY bad things in order to claim power when the carnage is already over and the results of said carnage range from impossible (i.e. death) or difficult to overturn in the future? Is our platform just a bunch of nice-sounding words or does our party actually STAND for anything anymore?

[Hydra]

45. Beware anyone peddling the line that we must win by sacrificing our values

Because our leaders seem to have an interesting teacher:

"A prince never lacks legitimate reasons to break his promise."

Niccolò Machiavelli

The cheerleaders for such behavior are either naive or don't care about the damage that will be caused by embracing such a position.

Black is white, good is evil, war is peace.

[paulk]

48. that's only true if you buy into the hand wringing hyperbole

peddled by the likes of our OP.

The "naive" ones are those who bought the line back in 2000 about the two parties being the same - and that is essentially the swill being sold here. You want "damage"? Look around you - look at what seven years of George Bush has brought us.

[madfloridian]

49. Your insult to my OP I take as a compliment. "handwringing." What a put down term.

I think that what will hurt our party more than anything is the leaving out of those of us who care, still really care about things.

You and those who believe in doing what the other party wants to get along....are the ones who are blasting me now.

I think it must mean that someone is squirming.

[paulk]

51. break out the hankies, folks

it's time for another MF pity party....



:nopity:

[madfloridian]

52. You just don't bother me with your insults.

I actually happen to consider it good to be worthy of the contempt of those who don't care about the feelings of others.

You just don't bother me at all.

[paulk]

58. yeah, right

you're the only person who cares. You're the only person who feels. You're the only person with a moral center.

what a pile of sanctimonious crap.

[Danger Mouse]

54. how exceptionally rude.

good for you.

[nashville_brook]

65. i TOTALLY agree that "2 parties same" meme is BS -- but, it's not "hand wringing hyperbole"

to be alarmed at the rate to which our elected Dems have abandoned us. it's the rotten, awful truth.

there's NO THIRD PARTY spoiler this time around, so, we're farking FREE to criticize the party without being called traitors. so, lets take that little pile of poo off the table.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

46. I'm with you, MadFloridian...

Not 10 minutes ago I was talking to a friend about this very topic. About Rahm "Win at any cost" Emmanuel, the Third Way/Blue Dog/New Dems, reaching out to the "religious", the "keep your powder dry" crowd, the "Iran or Bust" crowd -- everything we have witnessed from the Dems in recent years.

My friend described it as the Democrats have begun to eat out of the the same "pie" as the GOP has all these years -- the problem is, the pie is filled with maggots. And it will kill and/or corrupt us the same way it has the GOP.

And yet they gobble it up, every day, even faster, all in the name of "winning".

You and I know that pie is poison, but too many others do not, by ignorance true or willful.

But I will not participate in my own destruction. No pie for me! :shrug:

[autorank]

47. Get ready to get busy.

There are a lot of issue driven, seek the right path folks out there waiting to participate with full rights. The FDP convention is the latest example of what happens when it's all about the money.

The force of reform of reform is stronger than the decadent resistance offered by those who think they own the government and we, the "little" people, are just their flunkies.

[Danger Mouse]

56. Excellent post!

Well done. :pals:
Some people have to resort to personal attacks when they have nothing meaningful to say.
I, for one, am behind you 100%

[ChipperbackDemocrat]

57. This is exactly why I've chosen the candidate I've chosen.

We've been "playing the game"..and its not helping..Maybe we need to stop playing and start fighting for who we are again.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

59. Thank you for laying it all out like that, madfloridian

I agree with everything you've said, and my disgust and dismay goes back to 1981, when the Dems had a majority in Congress and STILL gave Reagan most of what he wanted. I remember being disgusted at the formation of the DLC, which seemed even then to be more concerned about not offending Republicans than about standing up for any opposing principals.

First we had to win the presidency, which happened in 1992. Then we had to get our majority back (after losing it in 1994). Then we couldn't do anything after 2000 (had to keep the Senate), then we couldn't do anything until we got Congress back, and now the excuse is that we don't have the White House.

That's 26 years of excuses, while hard-right Republicanism has marched on. I bet half the DUers are too young to remember what it was like when Democrats were making constructive initiatives.

A poster above showed us a picture of the late Congresswoman Barbara Jordan. She became a hero to a generation for her fearless defense of the Constitution. I bet if she were still alive and trying the same thing today, her own party would tell her to tone it down to avoid offending the major donors and right-wing radio would gleefully call her ever racist and sexist name in the book. And no Democrats would demand an apology.

My anger is not about politics. It's about this country. Right now, both parties are supporting a war that no one wants and that no thinking person ever wanted and that is bankrupting this country and destroying its worldwide reputation. Both parties are pretending that the foxes (health insurance companies) can be trusted to undo the mess that they have caused. Both parties are dithering about global warming and doing nothing about it. Both parties are ignoring the pressing economic issues that our population faces. They're all besotted with corporate donors.

Meanwhile, the fat cats know who their enemies are. They buy them off or threaten them or make sure that the corporate media ignore or ridicule them, and an alarming number of DUers are either okay with the marginalization of the only politicians who care more about their country than about personal advancement.

I fear that this nation will get what it deserves, in more ways than one, and it won't be pretty. :-(

[madfloridian]

69. I have made a lot of folks angry

I guess I should worry, but I just can't. Somebody even said they would have a pity party for me. Oh, well.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

71. The people who are angry at you

are the ones who have reason to feel guilty for their support of party loyalty over principle.

[AndyTiedye]

62. They Still Have Nightmares About 1972

The lesson they learned from McGovern's defeat in 1972 is to never run a peace campaign, ever, no matter how unpopular the war is.

The lesson they should have learned from 1972 is that you can't win if your opponents can spy on you with impunity because they will always be one step ahead of you.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

70. They learned a "lesson" from 1972

and they've never lost an election since, right? :eyes:

[hughee99]

66. I agree...

If the majority of voters agree with us on so many issues, how the F*** can it be good politics to go along with the other side? Isn't it "good politics" to support policies that a majority of voters agree with, or have I been mislead in my belief that voters agree with us? WTF?

[puebloknot]

67. Spot on post! You will be vindicated (though that may be small comfort)...

...when it's finally seen that the failure of the Democratic Party to stand up to Bush makes them complicit in the downward spiral of this country into fascism.

Wear a helmet because the cheeky nail that dares to stick its head up above the crowd gets pounded down. You are being loyal to principle above politics, and there is *nothing* more needed in this downtrodden country this day!

[pingzing58]

68. Obama needs to associate Hillary with the Repug agenda because it's the TRUTH! He trully represents

those of us who are liberal and want a fundamental change that will preserve our DEMOCRACY in the future. If not, this "American Experiment" is at an end. What follows is.....? Oh, and a vote for Hillary is a vote for four more years of war!