How Mutable Is Sexual Orientation

[DemocratSinceBirth]

Poll question: How Mutable Is Sexual Orientation

I waver between Choices One and Choices Two. And if something is immutable how can you criticize a person for it?

[achtung_circus]

1. Option 1 & 4 are identical,

should #4 be "very mutable"?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

2. I Fixed It

DSB

[achtung_circus]

3. OK you caught that, then. nt.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

4. TY

DSB

[Tejanocrat]

5. You need to include a choice for Bill Richardson who will tell you it's just a livestyle choice.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

6. I Don't Think He Meant That

He just has a problem articulating certain things...

[Tejanocrat]

9. Let me get this right: He didn't mean it, but he explicitly said it, and never retracted it. What

makes you think he didn't mean it, and if he said something he didn't believe and never adequately corrected his misstatement of his own beliefs how is that not disingenuous bigoted pandering?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. I Thought He Clarified His Remarks

He's not my candidate but I'm not going to roast a fella for making a mistake:


"I just simply made a mistake. I misunderstood the question"¦I thought it was a tricky science question, where you put politics into science. I think the word Melissa used was "˜biological'. Since I use "˜choice' so much, I'm so committed to choice"”a woman's right to choose"”I thought that was the appropriate answer"¦Also, I had flown all night from New Hampshire. I was a little tired, but there's no excuse. I made a mistake. I think my record stands for itself.

-Bill Richardson


I regret Gov. Richardson's mis-statement"”as I sometimes regret one or two of my own"”but his error in the pressure of a debate should not detract from his very strong record in defense of equality for all Americans, including those of us who are gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender."

-Barney Frank



http://sfreporter.com/articles/publish/bill-richardson-081507-choice-words.php

[Tejanocrat]

14. How on earth does that clarify Richardson's homophobic remark???

Here's the exchange:

MS. ETHERIDGE: Thank you.

Do you think homosexuality is a choice, or is it biological?

GOV. RICHARDSON: It's a choice. It's –

MS. ETHERIDGE: I don't know if you understand the question. (Soft laughter.) Do you think I -- a homosexual is born that way, or do you think that around seventh grade we go, "Ooh, I want to be gay"?

GOV. RICHARDSON: Well, I -- I'm not a scientist. It's -- you know, I don't see this as an issue of science or definition.

I see gays and lesbians as people as a matter of human decency. I see it as a matter of love and companionship and people loving each other. You know I don't like to categorize people. I don't like to, like, answer definitions like that that, you know, perhaps are grounded in science or something else that I don't understand.

Richardson NEVER clarified what he meant. He just weaseled out of his comment without clarifying or explaining what he meant.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. I Could Care Less About Bill Richardson

If you think he's Fred Phelps with a Hispanic lineage there's nothing I can do to disabuse you of that notion...

[MH1]

33. So, this person's lesbian friends are "homophobic" too?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3657739&mesg_id=3658070

Just trying to figure this out.

So if it's "immutable", then it's genetic. If it's genetic, then someday people will be selecting the sexual orientation of their kids, just like now in some places they select the sex. Right?

[Colobo]

7. I think sexual orientation is fixed but sexual pratice

is a choice. There are lesbian women who are prostitutes and sleep with men just for money. There are porn actors who do same sex scenes but live completely heterosexual or homosexual lives after work.

I'm reading a book called "Bisexual Politics", which in a way argues that bisexuality is becoming an empowering option for many women.

[truebrit71]

12. I'm gonna have to get that book for my wife then....

..and recommend that she get empowered...

:evilgrin:

[achtung_circus]

8. What Katzenkavalier said. nt

[Colobo]

37. Thanks.

[BootinUp]

11. I don't think its mutable, but

is sexual orientation a black and white thing all one way or the other? That might be interesting to discuss.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

19. It is not a sharp either/or thing, but...

wherever one falls along a spectrum (or series of spectrums) is to very large degree determined by the time of birth. (I say birth, rather than conception, because the mother produces a series of hormones throughout pregnancy that trigger fetal brain development relating to sexual identity and sexual attraction.

So a scientist would say "environmental factors play a large part" and that statement is misunderstood as meaning home environment. Everything after conception is "environment", including chemical changes that happen during the first weeks of fetal development.

[FlaxieB]

13. People have different views on this issue.

Some people may say they are one way or the other. However, just because they decide to go a different way now it is considered as being a Bigot.

[Tejanocrat]

15. People also have different views on whether the Holocaust occurred, but not all views are valid.

[katandmoon]

17. Do you mean, is sexual orientation mutable for GAYS, mutable for STRAIGHTS, or mutable for EVERYONE?

When the issue is raised, it usually is applied only to gays, so I'd like a clarification whether or not this poll applies equally to the "mutability" of both straight and gay sexual orientation.

I don't believe it is mutable for either, but I think the fact that you even have to ask this question is sad, because the question should be irrelevant, and the only reason it is not is because of the pernicious influence of bible thumpers.

[Vickers]

22. Exactly. I was trying to make a similar point in my post below.

Many folks voting for 3 and 4 are applying their logic to Gays and Lesbians, since they can't get their minds wrapped around the fact that they simply aren't attracted to the opposite sex.

But if you were to suggest that THEY try a same-sex encounter...oh dear!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. I Think It's Immutable Or Practically Immutable For Everyone

Theoretically one can choose to ignore his or her orientation and become celibate or have relations with folks he or she doesn't feel a connection to but the psychic cost would be incalcuable...

[Vickers]

18. I think an even more revealing question would be, "Do you feel that

YOU could change YOUR sexual orientation?"

I imagine if some people voting for numbers 3 and 4 applied the same logic to themselves that they are applying to others, their answers might be a little different.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

20. Speaking as a Hetero male... No, I don't think I could pray myself gay

[Mellowtone]

25. That's a very insightful comment!

I like the way you think about it!

Prayer and sexuality have about as much to do with each other as a fish and a bicycle. IMO

[mohc]

21. Is this even the right question

The nature of any mutability would be more significant in my opinion. Just because something is genetic does not mean something can not be changed. Much like dying ones hair to change its color, I am sure it could be possible to alter ones sexual orientation through hormone treatment or something similar. But just as dying does not change ones natural hair color, any such change would not alter the natural orientation. In short, I believe there is a natural sexual orientation that is immutable, even while there may be the ability to change it in practice.

Some of these answers also seem to be confusing orientation with practice. Just because someone has sex with someone of the same sex/opposite sex, has no impact on their orientation.

[BootinUp]

23. I forgot about

hormone treatments, good point.

[Withywindle]

32. Hormones are unpredictable.

I know a few FTMs, and they've all taken male hormones, and for most, it had no effect on who they were attracted to, only on how that attraction felt. But one transman I know, who'd been a strict lesbian for decades, starting feeling attracted to men for the first time! He'd thought all along he'd become, essentially, a heterosexual man. Surprise! He's a bisexual one. You just never know.

[Mellowtone]

28. Can you name me hormones that change brains?

Even though many people would really rather be blonds, I don't think there's likely to a biochemical treatment for sexual orientation. We are know learning, from DNA and neonatology, for instance, that even something as simple as eye color isn't as simple as dominant and recessive genes, as we once thought, there are "other" genes in the DNA which act to prevent those "dominant" and "recessive" genes from playing out their inheritance eye color role. In other words, what I mean to say is that if eye color is not as simple as one gene, just think how many genes may be involved in a person's innate sexual orientation, and then we add the nature/nurture to it, (like in Iran, where no one can be gay, their leader told us, but there's tens of thousands of transexuals). So let's not try to oversimplify one of the wonderful mysteries of life with a pill or a hormone!

[IA_Seth]

26. Well, I don't think mine is mutable so....

I guess that's the answer!

Seriously, I think if you ask the 100 average folks 2 questions - "Is being gay a choice?" and "Could you change your sexual preference?" - the results would definitely not match.

[LanternWaste]

27. I have nothing but conjecture on the matter...

I have nothing but conjecture on the matter, however I imagine it's much like being either right- or left-handed (or ambidextrous-- which begins to muddle up my simplistic analogy).

But regardless of whether it is in fact mutable or not, I still don't perceive a valid reason for criticism. All other things being equal, I simply can't bring myself to apply criticism to any healthy relationship between two consenting adults.

But on an interesting side note, some time back I read a collection of essays by Gore Vidal (in his aptly entitled book ,"Essays on America") who stated (rather emphatically too, I might add) that there is no "sexual preference", rather-- that all human beings are simply either sexual or non-sexual, with no scale of difference in degrees if a member of the "sexual" lifestyle (and little explanation of the "non-sexual" lifestyle that I can remember).

All that being said, I've lead a somewhat cloistered life and don't pretend to have the right questions, let alone answers...

[Stop Cornyn]

29. All the gay men I know, and most of the gay women say it's immutable, but a minority of my lesbian

friends feel very strongly that their sexuality is a "sexual preference" and not a "sexual orientation" and that their choice to reject heterosexuality is the defining political and social decision of their life.

Based on my own feelings and experiences, I believe that sexuality is immutable in some people but polymorphic in other people and people can make a decision to express their polymorphic sexuality and can even make a decision to defy their immutable orientation but misery is the likeliest outcome from defying one's immutably orientation.

[MH1]

31. So then, your lesbian friends who say it's a choice are "homophobic", right?

No, I don't think so - just look upthread at the attacks on someone who dared to agree it could be a choice.

[Stop Cornyn]

34. No, but several of them are avowedly misandric

[BootinUp]

35. I'll need to look that up, lol

not afraid to admit it.

[MH1]

30. OTHER: Depends on the person.

Of the GLBT folks I've known over the years, for some I could believe it is immutable; for others it seemed very mutable.

I agree with Bill Richardson - and to my knowledge he is the only person who put it so clearly - IT SHOULDN'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE. Period. People should not be discriminated against based on who they are intimate with, or what form that intimacy takes. (I suspect Richardson flubbed that question initially because, like me before I spent a little time at DU, it never occurred to him that would be a relevant question. Thus neither of us were up on the current politically correct response.)

To put it more bluntly, I am very tired of people making a big deal about what other people do in their bedrooms with other consenting adults. That goes for people on both sides of the question...although I understand and feel a little more willing to accommodate those who feel attacked from the other side.

[western mass]

36. Much more complexity than this question allows....

Most people who say sexual orientation is predetermined probably have the idea that it's 100% genetics. Not true - we know that physiological changes that occur prenatally (exposure to sex hormones) interacts with genetics and play an important role in all manner of sexual characteristics. So environment can shape physiological factors during critical periods of development.

Research tells us that basic personality traits are based on a combination of genetics and environment - although they're "fixed" early on and remain fundamentally stable over time. It's reasonable to assume that a person is genetically and physiologically predisposed toward some sexual orientation, the environment shapes this somewhat, and then it's fixed thereafter. The unknown question is how much of a role early environment can play - we simply don't know the answer.

Consider that homosexual behavior is quite common across the animal kingdom (a little fact that fundies fail to bring up when they rail about "unatural acts"). The thing is, animals being only homosexual or only heterosexual seems to be the exception rather than the rule. This suggests that, unless humans are *special*, they probably aren't only homosexual or only heterosexual. It's probably a continuum, just like other animal species. If that's true, then we have to ask ourselves how much of a role culture plays in the fact that most people define themselves as purely one orientation or the other. But remember that even if environment does have a role in shaping orientation early on, this doesn't imply that it's a choice, or that you can change it...any more than other fundamental, core parts of your personality and identity are a choice or can change after they're formed at an early age.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

38. Kick for sample size