I'm gonna call something like I see it.... and it's gonna piss a lot of you off.

[cali]

I do see a lot of Clinton supporters jumping gleefully all over Obama, and *some* of it does strike me as having the taint of faux outrage about it. No, I obviously don't have proof, but I think the number of threads and comments about the whole thing by Clinton supporters, is evidence of flame fanning. Yeah, I know it goes on with regard to other subjects and candidates, but this catches in my craw.

Obama's made a mistake. Yeah, it's a big one. But he's still more than just a hack politician. And I believe he still has it in him to overcome this gaffe, and inspire. If not as the nominee now, as a Senator and perhaps as a candidate for president in the future.

[monmouth]

1. Must agree with you. Much ado about nothing..and I'm a Biden fan..

[Bluebear]

2. That's disappointing, monmouth.

[Think82]

38. What's disappointing? That monmouth picked the best candidate we've had in a long time who's been

pretty much ignored by the celebrity-obsessed mainstream media?

[Forkboy]

44. That he thinks this is "much ado about nothing".

[monmouth]

53. I didn't mean to be contrary Bluebear, I just feel way too much time

is being spent on this bashing...Obama obviously is not ready for prime time, he's made an error in judgment and it's time to move on. No disappointment intended.

[Bluebear]

58. Well, it just isn't much ado about nothing for the GLBT community.

We are told to lighten up and get over it too much. I know from your posts that you aren't like that, that is why I expressed disappointment. Carry on, friend.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dbackjon]

60. Let's hope you never have a gay child

Because I would hate for him to have a parent that thinks gay suicide, bashing, etc is much ado about nothing.

[monmouth]

64. Now you're being a wee bit dramatic, and how do you know I don't have a gay child??? Grow up.

[dbackjon]

71. If you did, you wouldn't think this is much ado about nothing

I am sorry, but I get offended when my equal rights are trashed, and when I protest, so called "Progressives" to us to "stop whining", "grow up", "get over it" etc.

[monmouth]

82. I made a bad choice/judgment in using those words..Okay?? I'm

on your side, honestly I am... Absolutely your Rights are as important as everyone elses.. My point is that this is the third, fourth day of this and it's tiring. I apologize if I offended you, and I do mean that...

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

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[Bluebear]

103. Whose little sockpuppet are you?

Because there is something personal going on here. Or are you mad that your "faggot" post was deleted? Don't worry, I didn't alert on it.

[cali]

7. No, I don't think it's much ado about nothing. That truly wasn't

the point I was trying to make.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. I Have Been Temperate In My Criticism

But how is it "much ado about nothing"?

Senator Obama had a homophobic gospel singer who has said that being gay is a "curse" that can be "prayed away" perform at one of his events after he was specifically asked by the glbt community not to... And then to add insult to injury the homophobic gospel singer used the event to slam the glbt community...

Any Democratic candidate who did that would have been treated the same way...

[Froward69]

86. To answer your question my friend

it is "much ado" as of the false outrage at Obama by Hillary fans. for Appearing with the homophobe. The "about Nothing" being the Hompohobe Working FOR Hillary. Wheres that outrage? This fake banter is distracting From the absolute BEST Possible Candiate. Theres my outrage.
also their are more than a few "Undecideds" still out there who just lost it for the both of them because of this "much ado about nothing". so theirs my silver lining.

[kenfrequed]

137. Hmm

It is one thing to accidentally have someone at an event without vetting them. Candidates often screw up this sort of thing and in the worst cases publically hug them.

It is entirely another matter to let them speak out like that at a political event. I don't think that Obama intended to alienate an increasingly important primary voter group.

Does this persons inclusion mean that Obama hates gay people or is himself intolerant?
I seriously doubt it.

Does it mean some of his campaign staff might have been out of touch?
Definitely!

Did they make a mistake?
Absolutely!

Should he still be considered as a candidate?
I think so.

Will I support him?
Though he was a back up choice to my current candidate of choice, he has dropped on my list significantly.

I suppose this is something Hillary strategists are probably happy about. After all I imagine Obama also had snow-ball potential and would have probably picked up supporters from other candidates as they're first choice dropped out. Now those people may move to other candidates or just back up the Hill.

[Ethelk2044]

3. Finally some truth about the issue.

[Bluebear]

12. What is the untruth about it, Ethel Kay?

What's not true?

[goodgd_yall]

67. You must be on her ignore list

you lucky dog.

[racaulk]

133. Are you talking to your mother again?

:rofl:

[dsc]

4. Then he needs to overcome it

not have his supporters blame everyone else. The fact is that many of us have no intention of voting for Clinton. In addition to that, Obama going down actually likely hurts Hillary. She is in the position of being helped by having two strong opponents splitting the anti Hillary vote.

[Ethelk2044]

14. His supporters are not blaming anyone. Obama is not going down.

His numbers show it. He is actually moving up.

[dsc]

23. His polling might go up

but his money will go down. I can't vote against him when it matters but I sure can, and most decidedly will, give money to his opponents.

[cuke]

5. It doesn't piss me off

I've noticed a whiff of that

[cali]

10. thank you, cuke.

I appreciate that.

[EstimatedProphet]

92. Me neither

And I agree with the OP too.

[Pirate Smile]

6. This place is insane today.

[ellisonz]

126. What else is new?

:P

[Nimrod2005]

153. I have been away, it was getting insane everyday, so I left, now I don't know what this is about?

What did Obama do? I have not heard anything on the MSM?

[William769]

8. I don't have a problem with what you said.

I do have a problem with Obama and his lack of judgement before and after the fact. Yes I am a Hillary supporter, and yes I am a Homosexual. Thats all I can say.

[DesertFlower]

9. agreed.

i think he's got a great future and is an asset to the party.

[saracat]

11. You are very even handed and fair on this Cali. I agree.We sometimes have

our differences but you and I can agree on this. Much of the commentary I have seen coming from the Clinton camp has been very mean spirited and jubulient. But Obama is not the only candidate that they have done this too, while all the time claiming to be themselves and their candidate to be victims

[cali]

20. thanks, saracat.

I would point out though that supporters of other candidates also attack Clinton in ways that are not particulaly honorable. It's just that this one has taken on a life of it's own- and it's pretty ugly.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

149. Been working late, late hours - what did Obama do ??

[William769]

22. So I take it you approve of what Obama did?

[saracat]

69. This isn't about what Obama did.It is about the glee some are evidencing about

what may be a major misstep for Obama. I certainly do not support the inclusion of any homophobes in any Democrats campaign.

[Usrename]

140. Misstep? I wonder what that means.

Do you think Obama believes something different?

Misstep?

[TomInTib]

I am neither gay or a Clinton supporter.

Hell, I do not care for any of them.

But Obama's gang is either mind-numbingly incompetent and insensitive or they are Pond Scum for booking that cretin.

I am not arguing here, cali. That is just my opinion. One that is not biased by any Candidate Loyalty/Blindness.

[trotsky]

52. Same here, TomInTib.

Obama and his campaign made a deliberate calculation. Write off the GLBTers in order to gain more black religious votes to try and win SC. That is a Republican-style cynical ploy and it disgusts me, playing two core Democratic constituencies against each other.

[goodgd_yall]

70. And here

I'm not a Clinton supporter and I'm not so strongly of support of my candidate that I wouldn't dump him in a millisecond if he pulled the same thing Obama did.

[trotsky]

132. And I did drop mine - for much less.

I supported Richardson until his "choice" gaffe. Now he's done well since then to apologize, and Barney Frank has come to his defense. But the initial answer pissed me off, and then the excuse (that he was "tired") just doesn't cut it. A president isn't allowed to be tired. And his (or her) mistakes can cost lives.

I still like him, and I believe his diplomacy skills will be the most important thing we need in the next president. But I'm just not ready to back him again.

[datavg]

156. I Think...

...the reason we're seeing this kind of behavior from so many of the candidates is that research staff and analysts are telling them they have to win something significant in the South if they truly want to become President of the United States. This is why Edwards says Hillary is unelectable. You can't sell gay rights and feminism and abortion to someone who drives his pickup to Sunday services at the local Evangelical church. You can't!!

It doesn't matter what the GLBT community or the feminists or the pro-choicers or even the unions think. Look at what Bill Clinton did to organized labor by signing NAFTA! These people have nowhere else to go! That's one of the dark, ugly secrets of Democratic politics. Ellie Smeal can stand on as many stages as she wants to, crying and moaning like a baby. I remember John Sweeney standing in the bed of someone's pickup at a labor rally, screaming about lack of support from a sitting president who most of his members probably voted for! No one gives a shit! Hillary doesn't give a shit. Obama obviously doesn't give a shit. I heard some talk today about Wesley Clark being Hillary's running mate, and I can assure you he doesn't give a shit. I know it for a fact.

I sat in a 400-level Political Science course at the University of Akron in the Spring of 1992, taught by the head of the department at that time, and heard him with my own ears say the Democrats only win when the gay lobby keeps its mouth shut and stays below the radar with all the rallies and wild costumes and marches. I heard it! I was there! (I've also heard activist Democrats here in Santa Clarita tell me the same thing, off the record.) And this guy is a southern Democrat from way back...got his Ph.D. at Florida many years ago. If I gave you his name, your hair would stand on end. He's retired now (and also happens to be a pilot) but he remains a widely known and respected authority on Survey Research in the United States. His course was always a weed out for Political Science majors at that university.

I honestly believe many progressives will leave the United States in the next ten years. Either that, or the few of them with family incomes above $150,000 per year will move either to the San Francisco Bay area or New England. Those two places are really the last US metropolitan areas which remain friendly to progressives. You could also add Santa Monica, California to that list, depending on what you do for a living.

Hillary is gonna take care of Hillary. If the Clinton years didn't tell you that, nothing will.

Do you know who really controls our government? The Federal Reserve Bank. And, the Federal Reserve Bank is nothing more than a front for foreign multinational corporations. It's not even a government agency! The damn thing isn't even incorporated here!

It's been this way since the early 20th century. And you're not gonna change it.

Finally, because of everything I've said above, I suspect it's secession time for some of the states in the interior northeast and possibly Washington/Oregon. These places don't have much in common with middle America anymore and eventually, their populations are going to get sick of taxation without representation.

[knitter4democracy]

68. Same here.

I'm a Gore/Kucinich person, and I'm mad at the Obama camp because I've known people hurt by that kind of "ministry." It's not because I'm not for Obama--it's too darn personal for that.

Btw, Tom, how are you feeling? :hug:

[TomInTib]

79. I've been better, knitter.

I went to a neurologist on Friday and the prognosis wasn't really what I wanted to hear. If I do ever play guitar again, it won't be before late next year at least.

But that is absolute Nirvana compared to my home life. I suppose it really does pour when it rains.

[knitter4democracy]

136. That's how my last couple of years have been.

We're just starting to come out of it, but it's taken its toll on me. All those surgeries and pain and odd symptoms have left me with massive anxiety, and Hubby's all twitch about anything new. He has some weird overarching theory about my problems now but can't prove it with the resources around here, and I'm not really okay with him experimenting on me, trying to make me all better.

Pain sucks. Numbness sucks. Having to go from specialist to specialist sucks. I'm so sorry you're going through all of that. What a pain in the rear. :( :hug:

[jonnyblitz]

13. and if Hillary makes a similar gaffe, the Obama supporters

who are complaining about the HIllary supporters would do the SAME DAMN THING they are WHINING about right back. I know because i have been accused of being a Hillary supporter by quite a few of them and I am NOT.

on edit: let me add that I am sure that gay Hillary supporters like William and Ronny are SINCERE in their outrage over this.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jonnyblitz]

119. I have complained about Hillary and her homophobic prayer

group. that does NOT excuse obama. it cracks me up when Obama supporters call Hillary supporters bots when you all are no different.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

122. I commend you for complaining

Most people seem to defend her and make excuses for it.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluebear]

19. Yeah, poor Obama, being "bashed" by Hillary's schoolyard bullies.

:eyes:

[phen43]

29. why don't you like me?

[Bluebear]

35. In general because you're rude as evidenced by the subthread here.

[phen43]

36. you've been very rude to me

[Bluebear]

37. Sorry.

You've been ignoring the feelings of gay members because you are enamored with Obama.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

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[phen43]

26. No, 4, does that make me something less than you?

[William769]

27. On what you posted? Yes.

[phen43]

31. please supply me with details so I can change to make you happy

[cuke]

28. You shouldn't do that

It's not fair, and it's against the rules. Please delete your post

[phen43]

34. I should delete my post, why?

[MNDemNY]

39. Read...and comprehend.

[cuke]

40. the request was for william

[phen43]

43. sorry

I feel like punching a wall, so I'm going to leave now, it was really nice talking with you, take care, cuke, you're a good guy!!

[goodgd_yall]

77. Yeah, that kind of comment, I agree, is unkind

A newbie's shouldn't be put down based on greenness.

[jefferson_dem]

83. You've been here quite a long time but apparently still don't know the rules.

...to quote a fellow DUer from the other day.

[Bluebear]

16. Well, Clinton is right above Obama as a choice for me in the NH primary...

...and they are both behind four other names, if that tells you anything.

[cali]

25. I know you're not a Clinton supporter, bluebear

and I know you're passion about this is sincere, even if I do think you've gone a wee bit overboard on posting threads about it.

[Bluebear]

32. I probably have.

And I am man enough to admit MY mistakes unlike a certain Presidential candidate ;)

But, you're right, my passion meter went through the roof for one reason only, I really thought more of the man before this, so it really has been a reaction to disappointment.

[BootinUp]

17. In the several days this has been

going on I only once had a comment about it, and it was pretty mild actually. There are many like me who have not jumped on it. And I am getting a little tired of people characterizing the attacks as being joined by the Hillary supporters when in fact people supporting all candidates including Obama himself have jumped on it. Sorry to interrupt your thread with this opinion. Carry on.

[cali]

45. and that's why I made sure to use the word 'some' and highlight

it. I was by no means impugning all Clinton supporters. I wouldn't do that. There are many of you I think highly of.

[Forkboy]

24. I'm sure there's some of that.

Nature of the game.

On the other hand, Obama supporters could not have handled this any worse minus an instruction booklet on how to handle things monumentally bad.I don't like people using it because they support someone else, but there's no avoiding it.In the end Obama and his campaign have no one to blame but themselves.

[sandnsea]

30. A bunch of hateful assholes

I actually won't even put them down as real supporters of any candidate, or even the Democratic Party, because I think disruption comes in all shapes and sizes.

[Der Blaue Engel]

74. Please elaborate

Who is the group you're calling a bunch of hateful assholes and disruptors?

[sandnsea]

78. The hateful assholes and disruptors

Who have shown up here in the last few months and post nothing but venomous candidate threads. Many of them disappeared after doing the same sorts of things in 2003, 2004 - only to reappear, and disrupt, now. Very suspicious to me.

[Der Blaue Engel]

81. Okay, thanks

I misunderstood your post.

[Bitwit1234]

33. If I had the time and the inclination I would search the last 20

pages of these archives and post the title of all the crap and sh*t that Obama supporters have posted bashing and slurring Hillary. And 9/10 of the stuff is that crap. So you have absolutely no reason to say anything, any damn thing at all that the Hillary supporters are now pointing out something about Obama. WHO IS FAR FROM BEING A SAINT. SHAME SHAME YOU SOUND JUST LIKE THE REPUBLICANS.

We can bash...you can't nah nah nah.

[bahrbearian]

41. Link Please.

[cali]

46. Link to what?

The OP is simply my observation. I don't see how I could have made that any clearer. I don't need a link for my observations.

[bahrbearian]

49. OK ,,,, Observation's to what?

Some of us have no clue to the "Outrage" we don't all plug into the NEW's

[Bluebear]

50. Oh my.

Look about the board for a moment or so.

[dsc]

42. This is my answer to your post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3659509&mesg_id=3659509

[JohnnyLib2]

47. I like Cali's last two sentences, especially "perhaps as a

candidate for president in the future." I do think Obama has blown it for now, but he certainly seems capable of learning from mistakes. Many leaders (and many of us) have. Only time will tell.

[Chovexani]

48. There is a lot of shit stirring, no doubt

But I'm not a Hillary Supporter, I'm a Kucinich supporter and until now I actually liked Obama and thought his campaign was something to admire even if I didn't agree with him on all the issues. If he got the nod I would have worked my ass off for him.

Now? Assuming he gets the nomination I'll hold my nose, because his actions over the last few days have firmly ensconced him in the "lesser of two weasels" category. And that's a damn shame.

What angers me about this whole mess are the rabid Obama fans and the rabid Hillary fans (because yes, they are acting like batshit sports fans) treating this like just another thing to bash a candidate over. For GLBT people and our true allies it's about a lot more than just candidates. This is not nearly on the same level as Edwards haircut or how big someone's house is or what have you, and I really, really do not appreciate the more rabid Obama supporters minimalizing it like that.

[ruggerson]

51. Cali give some credit to gay and lesbian people here

and their straight allies.

This is a very serious issue. Obama is playing wedge politics using the bigotry card. He is behaving just like a Republican.

Before Obama publicly lauded Tom Coburn as the "kind of Republican" he could do business with, I was looking at him and listening to him seriously.

I am casting my vote for Edwards in the primaries, but my support for his candidacy has NOTHING to do with my anger about this issue.

This is a pattern Obama has exhibited. He is far too willing to sacrifice the Democratic party's historic commitment to human rights issues for the expediency of his campaign.

To pretend that the anger and hurt and sheer amazement that many of us feel is not genuine is not giving us the nominal respect that we deserve as voters and as human beings.

[cali]

56. I do ruggerson. Big time.

And as someone who worked her ass off years ago on civil unions in Vermont, and is currently working on changing that to full marriage, I'm not in any way downplaying the seriousness of this issue. That wasn't the point of my post. There is no civil rights issue I feel more strongly about. Sorry you got the impression that I'm minimizing this from my post.

[ruggerson]

61. Ok

well then we'll have to disagree that this is being exploited. There are always people who will exploit anything, of course, but the vast, vast majority of people here are genuinely and sincerely repulsed and angered by what has occurred here.

[trotsky]

54. Until Sunday's events played out, I was willing to believe Obama had made a mistake.

But it's clear, both from his recorded video intro as well as McClurkin's behavior at the concert, that it was a CALCULATED DECISION by the Obama campaign. They meant to pander to religious bigots by insulting GLBTers. I'm sure they gambled that Obama's subsequent statement was going to make up for it and those of us who care about ALL human rights would overlook the concert - but that didn't happen. They guessed wrong.

[ElizabethDC]

55. I think it goes both ways on this kind of thing

Clinton supporters get outraged about stuff Obama does, and Obama supporters get outraged about stuff Clinton does.

I can only speak for myself here, but as a Clinton supporter, I usually don't weigh in about stuff regarding other candidates' slip-ups because I can recognize my own bias. But I find this particular incident regarding McClurkin to be a pretty big deal and I think Obama responded very badly. (For the record, I think the fact that Hillary apparently features an endorsement from a homophobic preacher on her website to also be inappropraite).

[Laurab]

57. Thanks, cali - I couldn't agree more.

I'm sure many people are honestly outraged - I'm an Obama supporter, and I'm really disappointed in him, and re-thinking my options if he doesn't do something to straighten this out, BUT I've noticed thread after thread, started by the same people, just to stir up the same pot again and again.

As I said in another thread, I won't blindly support ANYONE, including Obama. He did make a mistake, and hopefully he will overcome it SOON, because I had high hopes for him. I think he will, and I'm actually surprised he hasn't already. If he doesn't, I think it will hurt him, and I may have to turn to another candidate. That candidate won't be Clinton, though.

The glee in which her supporters keep posting thread after thread about this is indeed flame fanning. I'm glad someone else besides me noticed.

[Bluebear]

59. How do you know they are "her supporters"?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

63. I Like Hillary

I didn't start one thread on this brouhaha other than to show solidarity with my gay brothers and sisters...

I also posted rarely on this topic until Obama's supporters dragged Hillary Clinton into this debate as if her vote on this issue or that issue absolved Obama for his current actions...

[mrreowwr_kittty]

90. What about Harold Mayberry?

Her campaign issued a press release to celebrate her endorsement by Mayberry, a preacher who publicly compared homosexuality to theivery. Surely you are aware of this by now, and yet you still "like Hillary".

And NO, it is not 'different' because he didn't go on tour with her, or fundraise for her, or because he's not 'ex-gay' like McClurkin, and whatever lame-ass equivocations they like to come up with. Mayberry's a religious bigot and Clinton is pandering to his ilk every bit as much as you say Obama is.

How about her prayer meetings and breakfasts with Man on Dog Santorum and Lindsey Graham, both of whom have made public statements condemning homosexuality? Pray tell (pardon the pun), how is that 'different'?

Yet you still 'like Hillary'.

Yeah, we should stop 'dragging her into it'. Nothing to see there, folks. :eyes:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

94. Some Questions

1) Did she make Harold Mayberry the Master Of Ceremomies at any of her events, after she was (begged) not to by several glbt groups?

2) Have any glbt groups asked her to quit her prayer group?

I don't know how you can compare the two relationships... It's like comparing coitus to a handshake...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

98. Oh- I Would Tell HRC To Tell The Hompohobic Reverend To Stuff His Endorsement

And if HRC ever appears with him she lost my support...

I'm not for sale...

As for the prayer group, when my mom had cancer I would have prayed with anybody if I thought God would answer...

[mrreowwr_kittty]

99. Some answers, and questions back at you

1. No.

2. No.



1. Why is the endorsement from Harold Mayberry, the bigot who compared homosexuality to theivery, still proudly displayed on the Hillary Clinton website?

2. Why is an association with a known bigot ONLY a problem for a candidate if he/she is performing certain activities and not others.

3. Why HAVEN'T any GLBT groups asked her to quit her prayer group? (I'd really like to know that)

Finally,

4. Why is bigotry a matter of degrees rather than kind to you? In contrast with your (rather crude) analogy, I view it like being pregnant. You may be only 'a little' pregnant, but you're still pregnant. And a bigot is still a bigot.

[BootinUp]

101. You think you should have a say

about her involvement in a prayer group? Tell me I misread you there.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

105. Sure, why not?

She has the right to pray wherever she wishes but others have the right to criticize her for it. (Besides, this is no ordinary prayer group. This is a gathering of some of the most powerful people in the world.)

Taking your reasoning a bit further: What is a gospel concert but a group prayer, set to music? If it's unacceptable to tell Clinton whom to pray with, then why is it okay to tell Obama and his supporters?

[BootinUp]

106. One is private worship maybe?

You are scarin me to be honest. You know nothing about what they pray about, and its none of your business really.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

108. So it's only okay to tell people where they can pray in public?

You're the scary one, to be honest.

[BootinUp]

110. you can't see the difference

between a campaign event and religious freedom?

I am not saying Obama can't worship with McClurkin, many have questioned his judgment in giving the guy a prominent place in a campaign event. Sorry I don't see any parallel issue with an unpublicized prayer meeting.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

112. Religious freedom applies in every situation or it doesn't

Consider the following (highly unlikely) scenario:

Say we find out Al Gore regularly participates in a private prayer group with known Ku Klux Klan members. He doesn't give them prominent places in any of his political events.

Would his many supporters be depriving him of his religious freedom by asking him to cease and desist in that?

[BootinUp]

114. I'm not going there.

maybe someone else will debate highly unlikely hypothetical situations with you. This whole issue is not about religious freedom despite your effort to make it so.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

116. You made it about religious freedom, not me.

And ask yourself why you can't even imagine Al Gore praying with KKK members, yet the frontrunner for the Democratic Primary praying with a man who equated being gay with bestiality is not a problem at all.

Oh, but he didn't sing at a campaign event with her.

[BootinUp]

118. bs. n/t

[Laurab]

66. I know some of them are - and those are the ones

gleefully fanning the flames over and over. There are a few Hillary supporters that do stand out, and never more than with this new Obama-attack opportunity.

Others have posted, as well, but not gleefully - their posts I take far more seriously, because I AM troubled by this "gaffe". I'm certainly not saying they are all Hillary supporters, but I am quite familiar with the rabid Hillary supporters on the board. I don't understand why an Obama supporter would apologize for this, and support Obama blindly, but even more, I don't understand how anyone at all could support HRC.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

91. Thank you.

I can completely understand being upset with Obama about this, and even perhaps reconsidering him as a candidate for it. But anyone who claims to be choosing Clinton over him because of McClurkin is either dishonest or seriously misinformed.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

62. Cali, you are off base here

You are raising issues that the rules do not less us fully discuss here, but there was more going on here than is meeting your eye.

An effort to cause one result can cause an opposite result if handled ineptly enough.

[PurityOfEssence]

65. Yes and no

Certainly there's a lot of glee from certain people who are amplifying their outrage, and probably a lot who just don't "get" the severity of the disastrous misstep, but a lot of it is truly dumbfounded shock and true dismay. There's probably been some throttling back from some Obama deriders in this; it's a truly extraordinary series of events.

This shouldn't drum him out of the ranks forever, but there's some serious penance that needs to be made. (That seems a fitting term, due to the religion in which this whole debacle is steeped.)

Hell, Biden had to spend 20 years in the wilderness for stealing a foreign politicians speech, so this should definitely warrant a serious "time out". It should certainly knock him out of this cycle if there's any justice. (It's not that he doesn't have the right to continue, just that he's going to bring a lot of ugliness into the open if he does, and it would be entirely his fault. A little respect for the system and the others would suggest a gentlemanly stepping aside.)

Knowing how many people feel about this, it's rather surprising that the tone's been as amiable as it has, and that's a bit of testimony to the respect that most of us have for Obama; had he been perceived as a calculating huckster, he'd have been REALLY slammed.

Most people are in a state of incredulity over the whole sequence of events: it's gotten worse and worse with each unexpected bit of idiocy: allowing the guy to be a part of the big show in the first place, not cashiering him when his bigotry was made apparent, drafting a gay preacher to counterbalance things, minimizing McClurkin's prominence in the show, finding out that the token gay preacher was white, hearing the self-defensive screed excused in the name of god while reaffirming the bigotry and finding out that black gay preachers had been passed over to have a white one instead. What's next?

He's NOT READY FOR PRIME TIME, and that's the most polite way of putting it. When George W. Bush plays you for a sap it's not such a sting 'cuz you know the guy's a snake, but when someone seemingly (and I still think genuinely) decent does it, it's a big kick in the face.

[goodgd_yall]

84. Well, said, Essence n/t

[calteacherguy]

72. Although I disagree that Obama made a mistake, K&R for the 1st paragraph which is spot on.

[surfermaw]

73. Cali, everyone makes mistakes...

Don't let it get you down... I haven't seen one candidate ever that didn't make mistakes, and I am really and old girl!

[rucky]

80. If he didn't realize that the views expressed are so controversial...

then he is out of touch.

If this was a calculated move, then he is mean.

He had a chance to make good. Now there is no graceful way out of this one.

Yeah, it sucks when a career is ruined over one move or one word or one scream, but politics seems to have little room for error when you're a rising star. This one's not recoverable, and only forgivable if he sincerely addresses the issue and apologizes graciously.

[Froward69]

85. Second!!!

[cobalt1999]

88. I'm a Clinton supporter who has condemned Obama on this.

However, I also believe I would jump on Clinton just as hard if she had made the same mistake. I try not to be hypocritical when it comes to core principles.

BTW, what is really concerning to me is how Obama handled the mistake. Instead of admitting an error, he plowed on ahead without care which reminded me of Bush. Everyone makes mistakes, how they handle mistakes tells me a lot about what kind of president they'd make.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

100. Harold Mayberry

http://www.queerty.com/news/et-tu-hillary-20071023/#comments

[cobalt1999]

104. Do you really equate the two incidents?

Acknowledging a friendship with a small time preacher with those views vs. conducting a campaign event with a very well known anti-gay MC/singer are hardly equivalent. Shoot, I have a number of republican friends...I just wouldn't use them in a political event.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

107. Do you really not equate them?

I must say I'm impressed by the ever-increasing inventiveness of the excuses and equivocations offered as to why Clinton's bigot isn't as bad as Obama's.

A bigot is a bigot.

[cobalt1999]

111. No, I don't.

Like I said, I have friends who have political viewpoints totally opposite of my own. I certainly wouldn't use them as headliners or MC at any potential campaign event though. There is a big difference between knowing a bigot and using that bigot as the face of a campaign event.

If Obama had said, "I know and like him, but I disagree with him, and his views are not appropriate for my event so he won't be appearing", I'd be okay with that. No, excuses or equivocations...simple application of my own standards to Obama and Clinton.

Also, I believe I would be just as critical of Clinton for the same thing as Obama did.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

121. And if Clinton would say "I disagree with him and his endorsement is not appropriate for my website"

I'd be okay with that too!

[jonnyblitz]

123. you obama bots always want to change the subject to Hillary.

"SHE DID IT, TOO, MOMMY, SHE DID IT, TOO!!"BTW, I think calling people BOTS is stupid but i couldn't resist based on your response to a post of mine upthread. I actually used to use it here and there until I realized how lame it was.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

127. Actually, that's the first time I ever used the phrase 'bot'

I think it's stupid too. I generally refer to people by their proper names. In fact, you will rarely see me referring to Bush and Cheney as anything other than Bush and Cheney.

As for your accusing me of childish taunting, I think it's perfectly appropriate to point out that the Democratic frontrunner has homophobic baggage of her own. When people claim that it doesn't matter, that only what Obama did is a problem, then I can't help but wonder what real agenda lies behind their statements. Either it's wrong for a candidate to pander to religious bigots, or it's not.

[yodermon]

89. "flame fanning"?

:rofl:
good one, cali.

[LSdemocrat]

93. That's what happens in campaigns when candidates do stupid things

If it would have been the other way around, the anti-Hillary crowd would be doing the exact same thing.

[ShortnFiery]

109. Well, then please do "hope and pray" that your heroine doesn't make one inkling of a mistake

because there will be legions of fired-up and/or pissed-off supporters of other candidates whom *mostly* HRC's people have TRASHED. Please don't rule out "blowback" with the old adage? ---> Payback is a MF. :evilgrin:

[LSdemocrat]

117. I'm not a Hillary supporter

Right now I'm undecided, and Hillary's about 5th on my list, at best.

[ShortnFiery]

120. My mistake. I thought you were conveying your experience ...

Re: Knowledge of the two factions - The Pro versus The Anti HRC crowd. :shrug:

[LSdemocrat]

124. That's ok. I actually like both Obama, Hillary, and nearly all of the other major candidates, but

each just has one or more major flaws that prevent me from actively supporting one over everyone else in the primary.

[Canuckistanian]

95. Even if you're right

This will still alienate a whole bloc of voters and people who are sympathetic to the Gay cause.

I think the mistake will overshadow Obama's potential.

For now.

[Paladin]

96. Go In For Selective Outrage Much, Do You?

You've had a busy few days recently, haven't you? Making lame excuses for Nancy Pelosi, baying at the moon with our resident Gun Loons, joining in the shameful pile-on of John Kerry, and now whimpering about the treatment Obama's supposedly getting from the Hillary forces.

When Obama receives even one-third of the venom that's been aimed at Hillary Clinton here at DU, you might have a gripe coming. Until then, why don't you go be a foot stool for Ms. Pelosi? She looks a little tired out from all her genuflecting to the White House.....

[Odin2005]

97. I am getting very annoyed.

Yes, Obama screwed up. That does not, however, justify the "Obama throwing the GLBT community under the bus" flame-fests. I find it sad that being completely ideological kosher is more important then inviting good gospel singers to the event is some peoples minds, what I like to call the "politicization of everything" (example: "I hate country-western singer X because he's a conservative," as if the artist's political position has any bearing on the quality that singer's music).

[Bluebear]

102. "inviting good gospel singers to the event" - again. He did not just "sing"

[MNDemNY]

139. If it had been a "screw-up" ...But IMO it was conscious.

[Imagevision]

113. Personally I like Hil & Bill but I believe their too connected to big biz to be

as effective a president as Obama would be.

[JMDEM]

115. Don't like Obama, don't like Hillary...

Obama made YET ANOTHER ROOKIE MISTAKE. Gee... I want a rookie for President? I don't think so.

[IntravenousDemilo]

125. There hasn't been NEARLY enough grovelling from either candidate regarding their 'phobe buddies.

And I say this as a gay Canadian who has no ties whatever to, and thus no vested interest in, either Obama or Clinton, but who does have an American sweetheart. Obama pissed me off when he voted to confirm Condi Rice as Secretary of State for some reason or other that had nothing to do with her actual qualifications for the job. And I've been a little leery of Cllinton since she swore up and down that the 9/11 hijackers had entered the USA from Canada due to our supposedly lax border security -- oh yeah, sure, Hillary, of course we enabled the terrorists. We probably even gave them flying lessons. Yeah, that's it, that's the ticket!

Jesus H Christ on a stick...

In fact, I feel equally disturbed by both candidates, and these latest gaffes only serve to confirm my earlier impressions. Such mistakes are unworthy of anyone who aspires to the presidency. Surely you guys have had your fill of dorks in the White House after these last seven years.

That being said, heartfelt and sufficiently abject apologies to the gay community from both candidates are in order, and will go a long way towards rehabilitating them in the eyes of gay voters. And then we can all move on.

[terrya]

134. Excellent post

I'm defintely voting for Kucinich in the primary...because his ideas reflect my own. But he won't win the nomination. If it's Clinton or Obama, I'll vote for both in the general election...hell, I'd vote for the rotting corpse of Harry Truman over ultra-opportunistic sleezeball Mitt Romney...but I do have misgivings over both Clinton and Obama.

It still thrills me to read you mentioning your American sweetheart. I have a Canadian sweetheart and I am very happy to say so.

SHMILY

[Bread and Circus]

128. here's how it goes...

Obama opposes candidate X.

Candidate X's supporters say: Fuck Obama with his bigot friend!!

Candiate X wins the nomination and picks Obama as his running mate.

Candidate's X's supporters say: Yay! Obama is awesome!



____

don't you all know four legs good, two legs bad?

[JohnnyLib2]

131. good reality check!

We are talking about high stakes politics, after all.

[UrbScotty]

129. Well, I'm, not pissed. Not at you anyway.

Gosh, I wish some others would grow up.

There are much bigger issues to worry about than this. MUCH bigger.

[MonkeyFunk]

130. and nobody has ever

flamed the fans of an anti-Clinton point.

:eyes:


grow up

[PATRICK]

135. One major thing that would

have me 100% for Obama despite a few issues would be if he managed to cut out all Clinton era officials out from the cabinet and any central advisory capacity. That's a tall order for a neophyte that might not have that much of a divide between himself and the past Democratic administration and he will need the show of experience(the most overrated pile of spin next to taking the GOP positive issues seriously). of course no one can and he's promised even to include a few GOP names. Short of resurrecting TR I certainly hope they are not lust and money hogs and will stay also out of the central cabinet.

In short, attacking Hillary is one thing. Being an actual force of change means breaking the old guard continuity that has made the GOP especially the most depressing spectacle of bad pennies. the dilemma there is that it would seem to take bad blood rather than bold commitment for change to believe it would ever happen- that those hungry to return to DC would find what term limits is really about.

Someday I might live to see a candidate's followers being gracious in victory(or advantage) without the slightest patronizing or hint of sadism. I probably would be very suspicious about such a strange occurrence. What are they up to? What level of pious sarcasm is this? It is utterly useless to enforce, coerce or persuade once the human character starts to carry on in the throes of primary politics. It is very humbling and instructive.

OK, maybe the fan cannot buy into the universal goodness of all our candidates., but however much you like them or dislike them keeping something over and above this is possible. No matter who wins, DK or Hillary, the chief and most difficult task is to reform the party, the institutions, the laws. Without campaign finance reform the whole NEXT generation of new populists and progressives might be ground into the corruption. The active presence of very many hard workers on the ground have to make themselves felt, not go away, and demand action or face a primary challenge on very fundamental structural reforms that will make everything else a lot more possible. NO great leader is going to guarantee that. No setting aside of our beliefs and the need to return government to the people in order to make do for a "win" and a fat Dem majority is free from danger. With that in perspective maybe we can UNITE regardless of the candidate struggle and keep in mind what we are fighting for, together. It might be harder or easier with this or that person, but this troubled land and torn party does not need yet another infighting faction in the leadership void. Also, at most, we are but a small mirror of the mass of people who will make the real decision soon. Would they look to DU to help sort everything out and give purpose to their vote??

[youthere]

138. I agree Cali...

Obama made a mistake...albeit a HUGE mistake..but a mistake nonetheless. Obama has some SERIOUS work to do to make up for this, and sometime in the future could be a great leader. Just not now. He isn't ready.

[Usrename]

141. You know what funny about everyone's response on this?

Everyone here assumes that Obama's backward and regressive stance on homosexuality will hurt him politically.

Sadly, I think everyone is wrong about this. I think it helps him, in exactly the same way that it helps republicans.

[bagrman]

142. Need to look at the canidates with equally jaded eyes. Then you need to check these out.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xq8aopATYyw

http://youtube.com/watch?v=AMfUajhL24I

[BootinUp]

143. Thanks for the right wing trash

we always appreciate people who bring this kind of shit here. /sarcasm

[Ethelk2044]

144. It is not Rght wing trash it is the Truth. You are trying to bash Obama and Give

Hillary a fucking past with her issues with Mulberry and others who are ANTI gay. Give me a fucking break

[BootinUp]

145. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3661346

[rinsd]

148. Yeah its just guys from the Swiftboat campaign.

:eyes:

What is it with you and rw garbage Ethel? You seem to have this special affinity for it.

[bagrman]

146. Yea tough to swallow when it comes directly from them.

[BootinUp]

147. post 145 is for you. n/t

[Danger Mouse]

150. looks like a i missed a lot of fun.

man, what was obama thinking?

[Whisp]

151. Obama's mistake - let's take out the mistake yardstick for this to compare....

least distance equals least severity.

Obama's - maybe about 3 - 6 inches? I have not really been keeping up with all the brouhaha on his 'mistake' tho, so give or take a couple feets worth.
Edward's - from here to Iraq.
Hillary's - from here to Iraq.

on edit:
I don't at all mean to trivialize how Obama has offended gay people and that what he has said/done has hurt many. but as I said, I am not too much into the loop on this particular story and will try to catch up. apologies in advance if I did offend, but I will let my original post stand unedited nonetheless.

[Nimrod2005]

152. What was the mistake? What happened?

[Jersey Devil]

154. I am not a Hillary supporter and still think it was incredibly stupid

He associated with that jerk in order to pander to the baser instincts of his audience and apparently thought no one would notice. OK, he made a mistake and I am not going to crucify him for it, but I think he has to make up for it in some way or he will turn off a lot of people who otherwise might have supported him. This has nothing to do with Hillary.

[AtomicKitten]

155. Of course you're right but some will argue it's just politics.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

157. I don't want either of them!

Sick and suspicious of the media focus on them at the expense of the other, I think better, candidates.

[Samantha]

158. I don't think I see this the way most people do

To me he's just making a tacit statement that he won't penalize someone career-wise or politically because of his or her statements on sexuality. It's none of his business so he won't react. And that's just setting a good example, I think.