I'd Like To See Clinton and Obama fade and then Edwards and Biden Vie For the Nomination

[ThomWV]

John Edwards would make a stunning difference in this nation's approach to its domestic problems and it is far past due. Joe Biden is far and away the best hope this nation has for earning back its position as benevolent but pragmatic leader of the world. At the same time I am sure that Senator Edwards would have a sound international and security program and that Senator Biden's domestic policy agenda would stand up to any. Its just a matter of focus.

It would be a very interesting contest to watch and the nation would be better for it, no matter which of these fine men were to prevail. I hope it works out this way.

[melody]

1. They'd make a very strong ticket together also n/t

[cali]

2. if wishes were horses......

I don't buy Edwards election conversion, and though I admire Biden, he's actually not that strong on domestic policy. And lord knows he's far more knowledgable about foreign policy than Edwards. Anyway, it's not likely to happen.

[bdamomma]

3. but would Biden want the number two position?

[Virginia Dare]

37. I think he would take it...

I think he has a genuine interest in "fixing" the Executive Branch.

[Sparkly]

4. Wait a sec...

You just posted against Obama and Clinton in another thread, claiming they want to continue the war in Iraq.

Edwards and Biden both propose "residual forces" in the region or in Iraq. If this is what you're basing your criticism of Obama and Clinton on, doesn't it apply to Edwards and Biden as well?

[ThomWV]

6. Sure does.

Did it ever occure to you that I might hate everyone?

[Sparkly]

7. Yeah, but then you praised them.

"It would be a very interesting contest to watch and the nation would be better for it, no matter which of these fine men were to prevail."

:shrug:

[ThomWV]

9. For the things mentioned in the paragraph above, the one you didn't quote.

Strong Domestic policy in the case of Edwards and Strong international relations policy for Biden - those are the things I praised.

Actually there is a further difference too, but it is a matter of far to tiny a detail to be mentioned here without getting your head bit off but you seem to care so here goes:

Yes, its true that Clinton, Edwards, Obama, Biden, and I believe Richardson all have plans for Iraq that leave residual troops - can't deny it. The thing is that with Clinton, Obama, and Edwards they don't say what happens next. Biden has a plan for Iraq as a whole that does, in an intermediate term, have some residual troops but an overall plan that gets us out of the country. The others have troops in there forever and no end game. So that's why I actually prefer Biden. In the end it comes from his experience I guess, but none of the others have thought it out farther than getting most out and then trying to continue the present 'mission' forever.

[Sparkly]

10. I see

I don't agree, but I see your point of view now.

I think if you'll look at their sites, you'll see the other candidates do have pretty comprehensive proposals for Iraq post-withdrawal. I understand Biden's idea but am not convinced it'd work (or that it's our place to make it work).

On domestic issues, they're broadly the same -- and the rest is up to Congress.

[RichGirl]

20. .....no matter...

which of these fine men (????) were to prevail.

[1corona4u]

23. Well, you can't just walk away....

I don't care who says you can. Look at Bosnia. That's the kind of "residual" forces Joe's talking about. There is no death toll in Bosnia. And, from Joe's own site;

4. Responsibly Drawdown US Troops

Direct U.S. military commanders to develop a plan to withdraw and re-deploy almost all U.S. forces from Iraq by the summer of 2008
Maintain in or near Iraq a small residual force -- perhaps 20,000 troops -- to strike any concentration of terrorists, help keep Iraq's neighbors honest and train its security forces.

-----
Now, 20,000 troops is a lot different than the 140K we have there now. You can't just walk away. If you do, we will be back there in full force, within 6 months. Mark my words.

[Sparkly]

27. I wasn't arguing that point, just looking for consistency.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3926278&mesg_id=3926278

[Clark2008]

5. Why is Edwards so popular here?

He's a Iraqi War-co-sponsoring, PATRIOT Act-authoring, bankruptcy bill voting, NCLB supporting conservative-Dem-turned-faux populist.

[ThomWV]

8. Hard to explain, isn't it?

Maybe we should consider what the label "populist" really means. John Edwards appeals to ever poor SOB that ever got screwed over on the job. You know anyone like that?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. Then Wouldn't He Be The Antithesis Of Biden Who

Then wouldn't be the antithesis of Biden who supported the Bank/Credit Card Protection, errrrr, Bankruptcy Bill...

I think that is the most blantantly anti-consumer piece of legislation in the past fifty years...

[elleng]

16. Biden/bankruptcy bill

When Senator Biden recognized that the bill was bound to pass, he was able to fashion and negotiate for changes resulting in preferred positions for custodial mothers. When non-paying fathers seek bankruptcy, mothers can be placed first among creditors, so they and their children can obtain some of runaway dad's resources.

This is the sort of critical benefit of Senator Biden's experience and skills.

[philly_bob]

31. If we're to seriously look at Biden, we have to look at 2005 Bankruptcy Act ...

and how he voted on the many amendments to the bill.

I did a little research at http://abiworld.net/bankbill and http://www.ll.georgetown.edu/guides/bankruptcy_act_2005.cfm.

Yes, Biden did get in the alimony amendment you described. Good for him.

My question is how did he vote on the other amendments? And there were many.

I don't have a Lexis/Nexis account, but according to the second page listed above, "Lexis/Nexis has a link entitled “2005 Bankruptcy Legislation” that provides access to “the slip law, bill tracking report, congressional transcripts, votes and related news articles.” Lexis/Nexis login and password required."

For instance, on March 17, 2005, according to an ABI report:

The House Judiciary Committee approved S. 256, as passed by the Senate, by a vote of 22-13. After defeating every Democratic amendment, aimed at excepting military personnel, usurious interest rates and victims of identity theft...

For a start, I'd like to hear how he voted on those three amendments: (1) excepting military, (2) usurious interest, (3) ID theft.

I'd also love to see a list of all the amendments and how Biden voted on them. It's a daunting task -- probably a full day's work, and I don't have the time. But Biden's office, or one of his supporters, ought to provide it.

Biden seems strong on foreign policy, but that Bankruptcy Act business makes many of us doubt his credibility on domestic, consumer issues.

[elleng]

34. philly_bob, neither do I have access to Lexis.

Here's some info, compiled by a friend:

The history of the bankruptcy reform bill has its roots in the Clinton administration. Because the Clintons had lost so much public support, the GOP had a real grip on Congress at that time. Democrats in Congress were the minority in both houses. The battle over the bankruptcy bill raged on over a period of seven years, 1997 to 2005. The GOP was the majority party for all those years and they kept reviving the bill with each new session. The Dems did their best to hold them off and were able to gain some concessions.

When the bill came up again in the spring of 2005, Hillary Clinton did not vote. 75 United States Senators approved the bill. Biden could see that the passage of the bill was inevitable. The bill’s sponsor wanted Biden’s influence on their side and he was able to use that leverage to make some important improvements to it.

What Biden did was twofold: First, he saw to it that the bill contained some exemptions for small business. Second–and certainly the most important measure–was his insistence the Bankrupcty code be amended to change the creditor status of mothers with dependent children.

Under the pre-existing code, “dead-beat dads” were filing BK to shake off their child support and alimony debts. Mothers owed child support and/or alimony payments were, under the law, 7′th priority creditors, which meant all other “superior” creditors–catagories 1 through 6–such as credit card companies and revolving store accounts and, of course the IRS and other taxing authorities, even other civil creditors got first crack as ‘dad’s” assets. Some abusive husbands were even utilizing the “automatic stay” provisions of the BK code to block their wives’ attempts to obtain protective or restraining orders in other courts–which actions were “stayed” (or estopped) upon the filing of a bankruptcy petition.

In other words, all the abusive s.o.b. had to do was, file a BK petition and he could keep on beating the hell out of his wife–he couldn’t even be ordered out of the house!

Biden efforts at compromise with the GOP changed all that. “Moms” were moved up from seventh to first priority creditors, ahead of all others, and the automatic stay provisions were changed so as to not block the actions of family courts.

Biden proved himself a real champion of women’s and their children’s rights on this one. He was not, as many say, the bill’s sponsor nor was his the “key” vote. To the contrary, 74 other U.S. senators must wrestle for that honor.


More info regarding BK Bill

Common misconceptions about Biden and the Bankrupcty Bill:

Miscon: Biden sponsered the bill.
Fact: The Sponsor of the Bill was Chuck Grassley of Iowa (R)

Miscon: Biden’s vote was the key vote for passage.
Fact: Biden’s vote was one of 75 votes for passage.

Miscon: Biden could have filibustered to stop the bill.
Fact: 60 votes for “cloture” (end of debate) would have prevented a filibuster.

Miscon: Biden has made “sweetheart” real estate deals with the credit card industry.
Fact: Biden’s only real estate is his home. His net-worth is only about $150K

Miscon: Biden voted for the Bill to keep his seat in the Senate.
Fact: Biden was reelected in 2002, 3 years before the bill passed in March 2005.

Miscon: Biden is beholden to the credit card industry in the State of Delware.
Fact: Biden is no more “beholden” to the c.c. ind. than Dodd is to the Insurance Ind. in Conn; Edwards was to the tabacco ind. in N. Caro; Clinton is to the Garment ind, in N.Y.; Obama is to the meat-packing ind in Illinois. Every United States Senator is expected to balance the interests of his or her constituents against the interests of the American people at large.

[thoughtcrime1984]

12. You missed the term "faux"

before the word Populist. And I am not sold on JE's change to Populism from a centrist, either. I like Edwards somewhat, but I feel as if this Populist stance is purely for garnering votes, not based on strong, personal conviction. This is not an attack, it is just how I feel, and I would vote for him in the GE if necessary.

[tekisui]

15. Who else, other than Kucinich, even offers a Populist message?

I believe in Edwards' Populism. He got there by a legitimate political evolution. I don't see a Populist/Progressive growth being offered by the others.

Edwards understands that a majority in the Middle(Class/America) are sick of watching fatcats run the show. I don't see that the other leading candidates understand or even care to understand that. In Edwards, I see someone who will, with success and the support of the People, move the country in to Progressivism and then keep growing from there.

[thoughtcrime1984]

17. It's only a matter of if I believe in him

and at this time the answer is "not really". I do like what Populism stands for, and DK would be my guy if he had the slightest chance of winning the nom. I am going to need the hindsight of seeing JE practice Populism for a few years, I know that DK has been walking the talk for a long time.

[elizm]

24. What political evolution would that be??

The one where he realized if he started talking about poverty when no one else was that it might be his ticket to the Presidency? Can you explain how his 'evolution' took place because I really am interested in someone convincing me. When he was in the Senate I do not remember him being a Populist...and he was only a one term Senator until he decided to run for President...which was when he began his evolution, right??

[tekisui]

13. In Edwards, I see an honest political evolution.

During and after his 2004 run, he realized where the American People stand. He has studied, developed and matured his message. No one is born politically full grown. Others may criticize his Populist message as unauthentic, or pandering for votes.

I give him the benefit of saying, "I've learned". He is the most Progressive and most Populist of the *toptier*. I don't care how he got to those positions, but I am supportive of his move to the Left.

Just as we welcome repukes and indys into the big tent who *see the light*, and grow politically; we should welcome the centrist Dems who grow into Progressives.

[thoughtcrime1984]

14. If I truly felt that JE was a sincere Populist

then he'd have my vote, but I just can't help but feel that it is somewhat of a charade. If he gets the nom, then I hope to heck that he backs up what he is saying on the campaign trail.

[elizm]

25. Seems he is still 'evolving'....

He just changed his stance on Iraq yet again just this past Sunday, three days before the Iowa Caucuses. But I guess some might still see that as sincere. I did read a poll online yesterday that said 83% of Iowans want immediate withdrawal, or something to that effect.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/02/us/politics/02edwards.html?_r=1&oref=slogin&ref=washington&pagewanted=all

[Virginia Dare]

39. What's wrong with "evolving"?

Do you want another stay the course President?

[KittyWampus]

26. Honest evolution? It was AFTER his 2004 run that he invested in hedge funds. Already wealthy,

he needed to amass more money in an ethically scummy way at the same time he was supposed to "realize where the American people stand"?

[philly_bob]

28. Like Keith Olbermann evolved from shallow sportscaster to what he is today.

If you go out and talk to the people every day (as Olbermann and Edwards do) you find that certain messages resonate... and the messages of anger against Bush and economic populism resonate like a taut wire, making an unhappy American population feel hope. I'm betting Edwards' late conversion to populism is sincere.

It's like an author who turns out stupid autobiographical navel-gazing stories suddenly writes a mystery and it goes to the top of the best seller list. What's his next book going to be?

The candidates DISCOVER where the people are, and move there.

[TwilightGardener]

32. I will never understand it, myself.

[Virginia Dare]

38. I don't think there's anything faux about his populism...

he was a Senator from NORTH CAROLINA. I think that needs to be taken into consideration when you look at his record. I'm comfortable with his political philosophy.

[Seabiscuit]

18. My sentiments exactly!

No other candidates come close to this pair.

I'd personally prefer to see an Edwards/Biden ticket, but my second choice would be a Biden/Edwards ticket.

[RichGirl]

19. Yes....

Let's by all means keep the trend of only white guys running for president. They've done such a great job!!

[Seabiscuit]

So your first criteria is that the next President be neither "white" nor a "guy"???

Now that makes a lot of policy sense.

[Seabiscuit]

21. Dupe. Self-Delete.

[IronLionZion]

29. because race and gender matter to you

as the motivating factor. Making history is great, but I don't believe in excluding anyone for their race or gender. I'd like Biden as president and make history in the VP slot.

[Didereaux]

22. Nahhh, that would mean the debates would actually have substance and depth...can't have that!

GOJOEGO

[AmBlue]

30. Joe Biden is a good guy.

And I love that they are both down to earth and plain spoken. You could have a very good ticket there.

[IsItJustMe]

33. Amen!!!

[monarch]

35. Edwards/Dodd for me! n/t

[ShadesOfGrey]

36. Me too! Either Edwards/Biden or Biden/Edwards would be great!