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Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 08:16 AM
Original message
Offered in the spirit of "friends don't let friends do dumb things"
Edited on Wed Jan-02-08 08:39 AM by eridani
Fixing a major political blunder—it still isn’t too late to tell your Iowa precinct captains to follow their consciences


Just to make things clear, you still have my support even after doing a dumb thing like recommending that your Iowa caucusgoers support Obama in cases where you don’t meet the 15% threshold. I will always be for the undiluted full strength progressive agenda for which you are the current standard bearer. I’ll never stop asking for a pony, even if I eventually wind up settling for a kitten.

I’ve been doing enough phone banking to realize that in caucus states, though some have Obama as a second choice, most of your supporters have Edwards as a second choice. I’ve found that primary caucus strategies primarily come in three flavors; bandwagoneering (lining up big bucks behind a frontrunner early), best of the frontrunners (look at the highest polling candidates and pick the most progressive of the lot), and finally the keep asking for a pony even if you’ll accept a kitten stance. (I’m of course discounting the “wouldn’t it be neato keeno to have a black or female or Latino president” factor, as the people who pay enough attention to politics to be interested in caucusing tend not to be influenced as much by this and are far more issue-oriented.) People can agree on basic values and still be very hard to shake from their personal commitment to a particular strategy.

In my caucus state, Edwards is the choice of the majority of the type two strategists, even though Obama has some support from that contingent as well. If you were serious in 2004 when you said that you stayed in the race until the end because you wanted to move the Democratic Party in your direction, why the slap in the face when Edwards actually takes your advice? That’s how Edwards supporters are going to perceive it at any rate. Obama was closer to you in 2004 than he is now (what with slamming liberal “special interests,” having a homophobic nutjob headline one of his concerts and spouting Republican talking points on Social Security), but Edwards has moved closer—a LOT closer.

If I were in your position, of course, I’d be really ticked off that the media labels Edwards the “anti-corporate” candidate when you were there first and have been for years ever since facing down the Cleveland banking establishment, just as in 2004 they labeled Dean the “antiwar” candidate when you were the one that actually organized enough opposition to the IWR to get a majority of House Democrats to vote against it. And I’d probably be really mad at Edwards for having an informal chat with Clinton about eliminating “second tier” candidates from further debates as well—especially if I’d overheard it.

You got a lot of your supporters angry in 2004 by recommending caucusing with Edwards instead of Dean (who was closer to them on the war issue), but whatever the emotional roots of that decision it at least made strategic sense. Edwards was polling in single digits at the time, and it made the most sense for candidates below the 15% threshold to do deals with each other rather than with frontrunners. This year, Obama as a strategic second choice is sheer strategic idiocy. Your best chance, as you have to know, is with a brokered convention. (And believe me, most supporters of any of the candidates who want to be national delegates would be absolutely delighted to have real power for a change instead of being bit players in a preordained Kabuki theater act.) Nationally Edwards is running a sometimes distant third to Obama and Clinton, and the way to make things more even would have been to recommend Edwards as a second choice in Iowa.

That said, recommending Edwards instead of Obama was actually just the second-best option for you. Your first choice should have been to tell your Iowa supporters to follow their consciences. Guess what? That’s what they are going to do anyway! I heard about your very emotional meeting with your national delegates in 2004 second hand, but you were there. I remember it—why don’t you? Despite the pressure from Kerry, you wisely concluded that trying to herd cats was a futile endeavor. In the end, some switched to Kerry but others held firm.

Understand that your supporters are not only cat-like in their independence, but that we are also more inclined to be feral than domestic. Feral as in “Cross me on my issue and I’ll claw your face to shreds. And don’t even think about bothering me with that ‘Heeerre kitty kitty kitty’ nonsense during election years either.” Your supporters are extremely passionate about at least several of the issues that you advocate for—peace, economic justice, real universal health care, restoring the Constitution, impeachment and many others. They will support as second choice whatever candidate appears to them to be the next best on whatever matters the most to them. I really hope that you will consider going with the flow here and reverse your initial recommendation. I think that your 2004 National Convention decision should be a model here.

Dennis, you have a huge heart and a sharp brain, but sometimes you could do with a little extra ice water in the veins. Please get used to the notion that if you truly are a real visionary, it is inevitable that others will water down your visions and claim them for their own, and you will get credit late in the game if ever. It certainly took the Cleveland City Council long enough, and most of the time you aren’t even going to get that much. You must know that from knowing human history. Keep going anyway.
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ThatPoetGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 08:47 AM
Response to Original message
1. EXTRAORDINARY post!!!
K & R!

Thank you.
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MuseRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
2. Great post.
I am one of those ferals that would not switch to any of the others no matter what anyone said. I can make sense of this move although I do not like it at all. The hysteria here has me puzzled, he is a politician after all.

I think that he stands so very strong and sure on his positions and that when he changes it takes time and lots of real thought that a move like this throws us. With another candidate I would not be surprised, with DK I am. Even after the last time I am very surprised by this.

I am hoping for an explanation from the campaign at some point soon after the caucus. It will not change my vote because I see no other candidate who will change this country and move it forward back to where it was and then onward from there.

It IS human history for others to take credit for something that someone else has championed. The thing I don't get (or I suppose I really do) is how quickly others jump on it and take someone else to great heights knowing full well it was not their issue until it became well known as a winner. To me that is no way to really know how someone is going to govern.

Ah well, I am rambling this morning when all I wanted to say was that I enjoyed your post. :)
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thoughtcrime1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I really like DK and love his message
I know he walks the talk, and would be my candidate if I thought he had a chance of winning. Even a remote chance. It really bites that he doesn't catch on with more people, but outside of DU, it seems that the average citizen hasn't a clue who DK is, or why it is likely in their best interest to support him.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Well, are you in a caucus state or not?
If you are caucusing, you can afford to go Kucinich on the precinct round and switch to Obama or Edwards at the county, CD or state levels for strategic electability reasons. Primary state voters have to think differently.

I'm in a caucus state, and will carry the Kucinich message as high up as possible. And everybody in any late state should consider that if it looks more like a money-driven coronation than a brokered convention, Kucinich will always be there until the end as a protest vote. Getting the party and the country to move his way is a longterm project.
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thoughtcrime1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Primary
Wisconsin- Feb. 19
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. I'm sympathetic to type 2 strategy people who live in early primary states
Anyone else (that is late primary or caucus state voters) who wants an end to imperial wars, universal health care and fair trade should be supporting Kucinich.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. I think that the reality of the matter is that he is still pissed off about the debate exclusion
--exchange he overheard Edwards having with Clinton. Bad move to let that emotion interfere with what ought to be a calculated and strategic decision. The equivalent decision in 2004 may well have been equally emotional and it was just coincidental that it also made stratgic sense.
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MuseRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. I am certain it has
an emotional component but I also think the plotting to remove them from the debates was proof that winning was far more important than democracy to them. It was by far much worse than having the media make a decision like that. It will take a long time for me to trust Edwards again after than move. I don't care if it was a candidate I hated that they wanted to exclude, we are not supposed to run things that way. The man is not the populist he wants us to think he is.

Many people have come out saying his "endorsement" of Obama makes sense because they are close on issues. I don't see it at all that way, it has to be strategic alone. The two do not intersect at all for me to see and as far as Obama goes, he could be a godsend candidate in every way but the use of McClurkin and the comments around the issue have forever tainted him for me. It will be many years of perfect walking the talk on the good side of GLBT issues before I really ever trust him on that.

We will see how it all goes. Whatever his strategy I am certain I can back it even if I would not follow it. Until he really lets me down, and the Ron Paul issue almost blew my support, I will trust his judgment.

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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. The Ron Paul thing was brainstorming in public
More calculating candidates never get caught doing that.
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MuseRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Really bad move to do that.
It shook me to my core after all these years. I just knew it could not be but there it was. I spent a few days trying to decide what I was going to do. LOL, his explanation was great but I think many of us could have used it a little quicker than it came.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-03-08 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #13
21. Exactly. Ordinary mortals are allowed to to that in public
Politicians had better not.
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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
6. great post!
Thanks for writing this. I'm still trying to process this latest development.

I too remember the emotional meeting in Boston 2004; myself I had no problem with switch to Kerry, but that was not the general sentiment. I also had little problem with Dennis backing Edwards for 2nd in Iowa 2004, although some Dean supporters I know still gripe about it. But this time Dennis' signal is not one which I would follow. I hope for an Edwards victory Thursday night as it will be a victory, however small, for the progressive vision many of us share.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Our eight delegates did some pretty powerful blogging
Reading it was almost like being there. There was furious reaction to the 2004 decision from many supporters, and a lot of appreciation for his decisioun to allow his national delegates to make their own choices. Mainly it depended on how the delegates decided they wanted to relate to their state parties afterwards. I just don't get why Kucinich seems not to remember those things.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
12. Sounds like DK is quitting early--maybe he needs to work on his OWN reelection effort?
I dunno--is he reading the tea leaves and betting that Obama will win?

I thought it was a bit presumptive to tell his supporters where to go, myself. Everyone has their own agenda and priorities, after all; they aren't a group of mindless bots that he can "control" with a decree. And Edwards DOES have a platform that would resonate with many; so do some of the other candidates, depending on one's priorities.

And I gotta say, it IS too late for him to take back that remark. It will make him look indecisive. And he has a reelection campaign to worry about. He can't afford to have the 'flip flop' label attached using this as an example.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. I think you are wrong
Edited on Wed Jan-02-08 10:09 AM by eridani
It would increase my respect for Obama greatly if he apologized for Donny McClurkin. Admitting fuckups is the mark of a mature person.

I guarantee that Kucinich will never quit, based on his 2004 campaign. He was in until the week before the convention, long after Kerry had clinched it numerically. Why would you think that this year would be different?

Edit: in 2004 he told his delegates that he was asking them to support Kerry but that they should follow their consciences. Equally good advice in 2008 IMO.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. I don't KNOW one way or another, and don't claim to....
However, he does have a challenge at home....where he hasn't had one in previous years.

That whole McClurkin pander chilled me to Obama's candidacy, frankly. I'm still undecided, but he isn't in my top two anymore. If he wins I will vote for him in the general, but reluctantly.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
16. I'll "seventh" this one.
And bookmark it. It is the most sensible response I've read yet.

:applause:
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Jai4WKC08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
17. I just heard DK on Thom Hartman's show
At first he pussy-footed around it, but by the end of the conversation, it pretty clear that he does not consider Edwards to be an honest man. Which is what a lot of us have been saying all along.
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-02-08 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. But Edwards was honest in 2004?
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-03-08 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. He was playing it safe in 2004--
--with his substanceless "I'm cute, I'm Southern, and I believe in One America" schtick. I can't really tell if it's genuine, but I really do believe Al Gore became his real self after agreeing to lose in 2000. Could Edwards maybe have been freed up to become more like his inner self by apparently losing in 2004? At least being overruled on fighting in Ohio by the ticket lead seems to have made him a lot more aggressive.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-03-08 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Well, if Edwards is pandering to the Dem base, at least he's pandering to the right people
Obama is pandering to homophobes and slamming the Dem base.
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