If you are an Obama supporter and you support your gay brothers and sisters

[ruggerson]

Why don't you join with us in asking that Senator Obama recommits himself to our cause and clarifies his remarks and actions following his South Carolina concert tour debacle?

Senator Obama needs to hear from all of us, but mostly you, his supporters, about how damaging the "ex-gay" fundamentalist movement is to gay youth. There are gay kids tonight, sitting in what are essentially spiritual concentration camps, imprisoned by religious shysters who try to stamp out their hearts and damage their souls.

The American Psychiatric Association issued a critical statement backed by numerous other mainstream medical organizations, which stated: "There is simply no sufficiently scientifically sound evidence that sexual orientation can be changed." The statement went on to say that positions espoused by ex-gay organizations "are not supported by the science" and that they "create an environment in which prejudice and discrimination can flourish"... One of the most controversial aspects of the ex-gay movement has been the focus on gay teenagers, including occasions where teenagers have been forcibly treated in ex-gay camps. A 2006 report outlined evidence that ex-gay and conversion therapy groups are increasingly focusing on children. Several legal researchers have responded to these events by arguing that parents who force their children into aggressive conversion therapy programs are committing child abuse under various state statutes"

Senator Obama needs to hear from all of us that we don't expect him to change the hearts and minds of bigots and shysters; he's a politician, not a spiritual leader. We don't expect him to dialogue with the rightwing evangelical community in an attempt to find some "common ground" in regards to our humanity. What we expect and demand from him is to have the courage to really fight, with all his might, heart and soul, to change the law and at long last provide the full equality for gay and lesbian citizens that the constitution and a long laundry list of empty-eyed politicans have promised us for decades.

A simple, sincere apology to our community would go a long way towards healing this damaging rift. An apology that reaffirms to us that he understands that this NOT about changing the minds of bigots, it's simply about finally changing the laws we all live under so that they encompass us all as full and co-equal citizens.

Yes, I've read the remarks his campaign has put out when playing defense after the McClurkin public relations disaster was threatening to spin out of control. But his actions belied his statement. And his further statements and clarifications and those of his campaign succeeded only in creating further despair, not the hope he says he wishes to offer all of us.

If he is the passionate pro equal rights candidate that many Obama supporters claim he is, wouldn't he be - shouldn't he be - more than eager to prove his bona fides to all of us, those whom he is asking for support, and to offer up strong reassurances and a recommitment to our cause and the cause of human rights everywhere?

Coretta Scott King, in a remarkable speech in 1998, said it far more eloquently than most as was her wont, as she compared the civil rights movemnt to the gay rights movement:

"I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial justice," she said. "But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. said, 'Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.'" "I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King Jr.'s dream to make room at the table of brother- and sisterhood for lesbian and gay people," she said. - Reuters, March 31, 1998


Senator Obama, you tell us that you are the candidate of hope. Does that hope extend to all of us?



(disclaimer: I have no candidate at this time. Mine dropped out last night. This is not "faux outrage," it is grounded in the determination that the next President of the United States finally honors and fights for the values of very core, basic human decency.)

[NMMNG]

1. Where is the "hope" for LGBT people who have victimized

by the psycho-spiritual terrorists known as the "ex-gay" movement? Who is going to offer positive "change" for those traumatized by the "reparative therapy" that is nothing more than legal abuse perpetrated by charlatans who often have no formal training?

Certainly not Obama, who endorses these hate-mongers.

[jackpan1260]

80. Actually for me, my hope IS in Obama.

So speak for yourself.

[NMMNG]

90. That's your right

Don't be surprised, though.

[John Q. Citizen]

2. If seperate but equal is good enough for the GLBT community, it's good enough for me. They

apparently can politically support that concept (at least many many who post to DU appear to,) so why shouldn't I?

Maybe it should be put into the Democratic Platform at the convention, since, Edwards, Clinton, Richardson, and Obama all clearly and unequivocally support it and since it's apparently close to universally embraced by the GLBT Community.

I wouldn't have believed this to be possible a few months back, but hey, if people want to embrace 2nd class citizenship, who am I to stand in their way?

[Smarmie Doofus]

4. Who says *that*?

>>>If seperate but equal is good enough for the GLBT community, it's good enough for me.>>>>

[John Q. Citizen]

8. I just said that. You quoted me accurately. Anybody who'se GLBT who would support

Clinton, Biden, Edwards, Richardson, Obama, or Dodd, is agreeing, through their support, to the 2nd class citizenship status promoted by these leaders publically announced policy of seperate but equal for same sex couples.

[Smarmie Doofus]

32. Oh. A purist. OK.

>>>Anybody who'se GLBT who would support
Clinton, Biden, Edwards, Richardson, Obama, or Dodd, is agreeing, through their support, to the 2nd class citizenship status promoted by these leaders publically announced policy of seperate but equal for same sex >>>>


Not me. ( The above is factually wrong BTW; I support Edwards IN SPITE OF the fact that he's for '2nd class citizenship'.)

I'm not "agreeing" to it. Though you're welcome to interpret my support for Edwards however you wish.

I'll take a half a loaf this year and a half a loaf in '12 ( much more attainable if you've gotten the first half, seems to me). If only because "no loaf at all" is the likely alternative.

[Anouka]

47. I thought they were talking about the ENDA controversy myself.

But ok.

[Smarmie Doofus]

83. I believe he is talking about marriage.

They're all for ENDA; at least I hope so.

[LordJFT]

68. or maybe they realize that there are other important issues too and that no canidate is perfect on

every issue.

[TheWraith]

3. The South Carolina "debacle"? Exaggerate much?

What exactly do you imagine happened at this concert, pray tell? Or are you suggesting that a candidate is responsible for every belief held by any of their supporters, no matter what?

[ruggerson]

9. These are the facts

The Obama campaign hired three very homophobic acts, McClurkin, Mary Mary and Hezekiah Walker.

Collectively these artists have spoken aggressively against the LGBT community without apology.

Obama was informed of the gay communitie's objections to these performers days before the event, but Obama refused to cancel the concert and insisted that these people were just performers and would not be using his stage to advocate bigotry. Obama hired a white, gay preacher who gave brief opening remarks before much of the crowd arrived.

Contrary to Obama's promises, Donnie McClurkin did not just perform at the event, he MC'ed the entire show. And then he took time at the end to do exactly what Obama said he would not do: he launched into a long diatribe about the gay community, his supposed "ex-gayness" and screamed: "God delivered me from homosexuality" to the wild cheers of the crowd.

Remember, this did not occur on a Republican's stage, but at an event for a DEMOCRAT.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dUp16hFzY8

Obama then proceeded to do damage control, writing an op ed in the NY Blade, doing an interview with the Advocate, and blundering into his now famous line: "There are good, decent, moral people in this country who do not yet embrace their gay brothers and sisters as full members of our shared community.”


http://nyblade.com/2007/11-16/viewpoint/editorials/


The Obama camp's remark later to a reporter about all this:
"We got what we wanted out of it."

[John Q. Citizen]

10. The official announced public policy of seperate but equal, announced on a

stage full of Democrats, by 7 out of 8 Democrats running for president. how do you feel about that?

I'm straight and I'm outraged. Where's your outrage, I mean except the selective outrage directed at only one of the 7 seperate but equal candidates?

Or is official public policy announced publically by candidates for President somehow far less offensive to you than some dumbshit singer entertaining black evengelicals.

I honestly don't get it.

It sounds to me like the outrage over the concert is just so much partisan political theatrer hatched by the Edwards or the Clinton campaign. It sounds like a hatchet job.

That's my take on it. And it hasn't been working too well. See the Iowa results?

I'm not even an Obama supporter. I support Kucinich. The one and only candidate who stood up for equality of civil rights for all.

[LordJFT]

69. Gravel supports gay marriage too...

[John Q. Citizen]

79. Thanks for the correction.

[DURHAM D]

5. Here is the part you are missing (or denying) -

he is homophobic. He is uncomfortable with us. He says different but I don't buy it.

Go back and watch the early debate when he was asked about being tested for AIDS. I happened to be TIVOing while watching and immediately rewound to watch it again as I was stunned at his little problem that was so very obvious (at least to those of us that have dealt with various levels of discrimination for 50 years).

In less than 30 seconds my phone rang - it was an old friend that I had not spoken to for awhile and someone I first met in the 70s when I became involved in the first gay rights organization in our state. He didn't even wait for me to say hello. Instead he blurted - "Did you see that?" A couple of "Oh my God"(s) later we were discussing MLK and the fact that this Obama guy doesn't believe that gay rights are human rights. Basically we both thought he was a complete jerk and even questioned what he is doing in the Democratic party.

[Smarmie Doofus]

6. K and R. I don't need an apology; but I would like him to...

>>>Yes, I've read the remarks his campaign has put out when playing defense after the McClurkin public relations disaster was threatening to spin out of control. But his actions belied his statement. And his further statements and clarifications and those of his campaign succeeded only in creating further despair, not the hope he says he wishes to offer all of us.>>>


... speak directly and publicly to the views espoused by McLurkin. Does he share them? Probably not.

But does he recognize how dangerous and *destructive* they are?

If he spoke directly to this point he'd help himself tremendously, seems to me.

[AAARRRGGGHHH]

7. I take LGBT issues extremely personally

I really feel that the treatment of the LGBT community is the secret shame of the Democratic Party. It especially bugs me that an overwhelming majority of, not only candidates, but all public officials seem to think that civil unions are an adequate substitute for legally sanctioned marriage.

That's a different discussion, but needless to say I agree that Obama has not come close to explaining the McClurkin issue to my satisfaction (or short of an explanation, at least apologizing and denouncing it with sincerity).

[NMMNG]

11. Kick

:kick:

[NMMNG]

12. Kick

:kick:

[Egnever]

13. Sorry but no I wont

Because I think he has a fine record of standing up for gay rights already in fact in his senate race he was attacked for being too gay friendly. I don't honestly think what you are asking for is an apology as he has stated quite clearly he doesn't agree with Mclurkin views on homosexuality.

His record of support isn't good enough, his statements before and after the incident aren't enough. I doubt there is anything he could say or do that would satisfy you.

This is being used as a club to continuously beat someone over the head that has consistently stood up for gay rights. Its pathetic in my eyes and dishonest.

Like it or not Mclurkin is a popular ghospel singer and after this whole thing blew up when i went looking for some info on the guy to see what all the hubbub was about I was surprised after watching a couple of his videos how inspirational his songs are. I firmly believe that Obama also sees his music as inspirational as well. The message he puts forth in his music is all about putting aside shame and feelings of self doubt and standing yourself back up and moving forward instead of continuing down a path of self destruction. Its a good message despite his views on Ex gays or whatever your buzz word is.

I am sorry that that inspiration comes with such a dark side to it that obviously does cause a lot of hurt in the gay community but i don't believe for a second obama invited him to sing at the event for any reason other than he as well as many other find Mclurkins music to be inspiring. The Idea that he invited him because he was anti gay I find ridiculous.

I will stand with you and fight for you to have equal rights but I wont stand with you while you beat someone over the head who is and has himself worked hard to get those rights for you and has taken many to task for their homophobic views over the years. Not only are you trying to destroy one of the people working hardest for you but it is being done in such a disingenuous way that it disgusts me.

I am sorry that Mclurkins performance has upset you so but I watched the video and for all the hoopla made here about his 30 minute ravings against gays, I found it other than one line, to be pretty decent. What did he say besides that one line?


---------------------------------------------------

Jesus came for everybody, and god told us to love everybody. Don't believe everybody that tries to vilify folks to make a mans campaign look bad. We believe that everybody should have the same rights. That theres a right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.We don't believe in discrimination we don't believe in hatred,and if you do you are in the wrong place at the wrong time. Thats the whole premise of god thats the whole premise of christ its love love.

But there is a side of christ that deals in judgment. And all sin is against god even hypocrisy in the church especially hypocrisy in the church.

lets make this clear...

Don't call me a bigot or anti gay when i have been touched by the same feelings, when I have suffered with the same feelings. Don't call me a homophobe when i love everybody, and that means I am afraid phobia means afraid and I am not afraid of anybody because greater is him that is in me.

Don't tell me that I stand up and say vile words against the gay community because I don't. I don't speak against the gay community. I don't speak against the homosexual I tell him that god delivered me from homosexuality.

And no matter what you read on whatever blog you read it on, no matter what imaginary confession is given let me tell you that the bible says... that if any man be in christ he is a new creature. the old thing the old people the old ways passed away.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dUp16hFzY8

-----------------------------------------------------------------
there it is for what its worth. Its not 30 minutes its two and change and of that two and change theres barely 30 seconds of ex gay in it.

I understand that ex gay is hurtful to the gay community something revealed to me quite clearly here in the numerous threads but the idea you are going to continually use one minute of speech from a guy who was hired to sing Gospel music to try to destroy Obamas hope for this country after he came out and made clear he didn't agree with those views and after he has stood up for the gay community so many times in the past including going to ministers and telling them they were wrong. Well sorry but I am not joining you in that bullshit.

I am sorry if this hurts you or anyone else in the gay community as I really don't want to bring any more pain to what for so many is clearly a very difficult thing to live. But I am just tired of the hyperbole on this appearance.

[FredScuttle]

23. "God delivered me from homosexuality"

There it is, in a nutshell. Homophobic filth spewed by an "ex-gay" clown bigot at a so-called "progressive" candidate's event, cheered on by a crowd full of religious bigots.

Look at the statement again - "God delivered me from homosexuality"....like it was the plague or some affliction. I'm glad that you're not horrified by that, but many of us (straight and LGBT) are.

Do you agree with Pastor Donnie that homosexuality is a sin?

[Egnever]

42. We don't believe in discrimination we don't believe in hatred,and if you do you are in the wrong pla

Your irrational hatred of Obama is duly noted.

[ruggerson]

53. You didn't answer his question

Do you think homosexuality is a sin?

[Egnever]

56. of course i didnt

its bullshit baiting like the rest of this thread.

I explained what I thought about it quite clearly in the post he originaly responded to.

[ruggerson]

58. The fact

that you try to mislabel people genuinely demanding equality in their own country as "flamebait" is truly stunning. And it speaks to how disingenuous you are when you try to claim you're on our side.

[Egnever]

60. your faux outrage worked the first 20 times

now it rings hollow.

[ruggerson]

62. then move on

you're already exposed yourself.

[Egnever]

72. More finger pointing

Do you call everyone you meet homophobes when they dissagree with you? Is that your standard defense to ewvery dissagreement you have? Its truly sad you must have gone through a lot of bullshit to make you so bitter.

[hulklogan]

63. How does my outrage ring?

Hollow? Faux?

What about the scores of other GLBT Americans who are outraged?

Senator Obama shows more empathy than some of his disciples on DU.

[Egnever]

64. at least you recognize the fact that

Obama has empathy for you and is not the biggot ruggerson wants to portray him as.

As far as your outrage, I dont know spell it out for me. What are you outraged about?

[hulklogan]

65. I knew I should have included that SARCASM smiley thing.

Knowing you, if I explain my outrage you'll only call it "faux" anyway.

[ruggerson]

66. I've never portrayed him as a bigot

As a matter of fact, I've clearly said I *don't* think he's a homophobe, but that his campaigns actions were homophobic and cynical.

Once again, you're arguing a red herring that doesn't exist.

What many of us are seeking to do is find a way to support him if he's the nominee, and all you are doing is attacking us for it.

[Egnever]

70. If i believed for a second you were sincere

I would be all for it but the constant attck post after attck post where you look for reasons to call people homophobes pretty much puts a lie to your concern.


Dont support him you clearly dont want to, thats totaly your perogative. But posting attack after attack dont be suprised when people disagree with you and when they do dissagree with you maybe you should try repressing your first impulse to call people biggots and homophobes. It doesnt help your case in the least.

Maybe take a que from obama who got the BIGGEST EX gay Clown in the world, to read your posts, to get on stage and say

"That theres a right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.We don't believe in discrimination we don't believe in hatred,and if you do you are in the wrong place at the wrong time. Thats the whole premise of god thats the whole premise of christ its love love."

If hes the biggest homophobe on the planet as those with you on this seem to think then I think Obama moved mouintains allready for your cause in getting him to say that.

[ruggerson]

75. What you're not getting

is that I don't care if you believe in my, or anyone else's, sincerity in this. I know my own sincerity about this issue, as these are things my family deals with EVERY DAY of our lives. The people I've called homophobes on DU I can count on one hand, and these are the people who continually and repeatedly attack GLBT concerns and do so very aggressively and with meanness of spirt.

As for McClurkin's quote, this is standard anti-gay bible thumper rhetoric. There is nothing apologetic or new about it. Their whole shtick is that "gays are sinners" but we "love them anyway" because "Christ loves sinners." It's the whole hate the sin, love the sinner game which denies us both our humanhood and our place at the table in the country.

Frankly, I don't care what rightwing religious people think of gays spiritually. All I demand is that we get our CIVIL equal rights. They can go on chattering and speaking in tongues till the cows come home, for all I care.

As for saying "don't support him if want" - you should WANT us to support him. We're LOOKING for ways to support him, if he wins the nomination. I would think you would be trying to help us in that endeavor and not be constantly berating us for seeking what should be ours in the first place.

[Egnever]

81. then WTF is your problem?

He has and clearly continues to fight to get you equal rights. Why must you focus on one 30 second line by one performer in one event to try to come up with an excuse to hate obama for it? Its beyond the pale.

You say with one side of your mouth that you want to get your civil rights and then out of the other you attack the people that are fighting to get them for you.

And weather or not you chose to believe it I am trying to help you and have been and your constant refrain of bullshit after bullshit attack trying to paint me as a gay hater or some such because I think you are over the top with your relentless attacks on a fine man who has done a lot in his career to stand up for you leaves me less than enthused to continue.

And no I don't care if you support him if this is the kind of support you give to people who support you. Your support is fair weather support that you will drop at the first sign of a perceived insult no matter who it comes from while at the same time choosing to consciously ignore all of the history that has gone before.

[ruggerson]

82. Your irrational anger notwithstanding

it behooves Obama to secure the 7-9%% of the Democratic vote that is gay and lesbian in a national election. If people are to be comfortable with him and his candidacy, it benefits everyone if this issue is put behind us. The suggestions I have outlined in the OP are pretty simple and don't take that much effort on his part. I have no doubt that if he is sincere, he will attempt to repair the breach.

[TankLV]

74. No - you tried to defend the INDEFENSIBLE...it's quite different, really...

[Egnever]

76. yes the indefensible

The sky is falling!

[ruggerson]

51. His statements before and after the incident compounded the problem

Nevertheless, many of us are seeking to find a way to help him if he's our nominee. What I need from him is a recommitment to our cause. You can frame this all you want that we "are trying to destroy Obama's hope for this country" (whatever that means), but you are not being intellectually honest with yourself.

"Its a good message despite his views on Ex gays or whatever your buzz word is."

It's not our buzz word. It's the buzz word of the fundamentalist evangelical community in their constant, relentless attack on our lives.

"I will stand with you and fight for you to have equal rights."

No, you won't. You want us to sit quietly and accept whatever meager spoonful of justice you deem appropriate for us. You can fool yourself into thinking that you will stand with us, but you know deep down that you really don't.

But, your big mistake is that our cause is not to be measured by how people like you define us.

It is measured by the deep conviction that we will, indeed, be full citizens in this country. Full and equal.

And it will happen because so many of us refuse to remain silent, and it will happen despite people such as yourself sitting on the sidelines, throwing the occasional rock.

[Egnever]

59. Yes poor you

Everyone is against you even the people fighting for you. I heard your bullshit a thousand times now.

You my friend are the minority like it or not and you will never get what you want without people like me and Obama fighting to get you there along side you. So keep insulting us and implying we are biggots and otherwise trying to play gotcha so you can stand back and point your finger at the great big gay haters.

I hope it makes you feel good. All it does is make me sad.

[ruggerson]

61. Sorry, but I don't rely on people such as yourself

for my rights. They will be secured, DESPITE people such as yourself. I don't feel sorry for myself and most gay people I know don't either. That's YOUR characterization of us, which speaks volumes about how you really feel. No self pity here, just relentless determination to get my civil rights.

Again, you don't define our movement for us. If you want to stand on the sidelines and harangue us in our fight, the only person you have to answer to in the long run is yourself.

[Egnever]

71. Clearly

You dont rely onj anyone but yourself to make the world right and you are more than willoing to attack anyone that has helped you in your cause at the first hint of something that you dissagree with no matter how long they havce stood by your side fighting for you.

You dont define your movement for you either and theres plenty of evidence that theres a whole lot of gay people in the country that dissagtree with "your" movement and its dishoonest tactics. The Gay comunity seems to be pretty evenly split on who to support among our top three.


And yes you did it all by yourself despite people like me who continue to talk to their reps and continue to call in your cause. Perjaps people like me should just stop trying to get you equal rights cause clearly you dont apreciate in fact I think you despise us for it.

[ruggerson]

78. I don't think many GLBT

people disagree with "my" movement (however you might try to mischaracterize it), because my cause is very simple: full and equal human rights across the board. That means complete and equal marriage rights, inheritance rights, the right to be in the armed forces, the right not to lose our jobs or our houses because of who we are, etc.

Those are the things I'm fighting for, and they mean more to me than any one candidate. Apparently, Obama means more to you than what we happen to be fighting for. That's okay. You're not gay, thus these issues aren't of paramount concern to you.

But you should be aiding us in our attempts to find a way to support Obama if he is our nominee. That is in your best interests and also in mine.

[Egnever]

85. Again you don't want to support Obama

Despite the fact that he has as good as or a better record on equal rights for you than anyone left standing at this point.

There are a myriad of reasons why he deserves your support yet you are willing to throw it all away for a 30 second line by a performer at Some obscure event. If he had chosen to continue on with him after that I might be willing to buy into your attempted divisiveness but he didn't.

My desire at this point is to get the man that actually has a proven record of fighting for you into the white house so he can continue to do so along with a whole list of other things I want to see him in there accomplishing.

On the other hand all you want to do is tear him down your support comes off the back of your hand. No thanks ill pass.

Ill cheer wildly though when he gets into office and continues to prove your fears unfounded. His record on gay rights is clear as a bell you just chose to ignore them.

and that will be my last bump of your counter productive post.

[ruggerson]

88. I have very clearly stated

many, many times that I will support the Democratic nominee. I have felt that way long before Obama even announced his candidacy. So, you can continue to distort my intentions here all you wish, but you will make no headway.

This is a mistake that never even hit the mainstream media, but will if he is the nominee.

Again, if Obama wants to make this mistake right, a mistake you keep trying to minimize, but if the anger on DU from the GLBT community and from the blogosphere GLBT community in general is any indication, a mistake that was profoundly cynical and deeply resonant - if Obama wants to make this right, he will make an effort to reach out.

As I've said to you, it's in your interests as an Obama supporter and my interests as somone who cares about human rights, that he does just that.

[TankLV]

73. No - it's people like YOU who try to defend the INDEFENSIBLE who are DISHONEST and DISGUSTING...

SHAME on you...

[Countdown_3_2_1]

14. No one hates you. Stop whining and get over it.

Oh the drama one concert can bring.

[Bluebear]

16. Go woo a woman or brew some beer.

Your post is unnecessary and makes you look decidedly shallow.

[Anouka]

49. back up -- what is that supposed to mean?

that's just as bad -- if not worse -- than what you're responding to.

i don't know what to say. are you gay? are you assuming the person you're responding to is straight? or are you assuming that they are lesbian?

what exactly are you trying to say? because if you're speaking 'man to man', gay to straight, that comment was offensive to me as a woman for a myriad of reasons, not least is the straitjacket assumptions of gender roles you seem to hold.

but i'm hoping i'm wrong in my own assumptions about you; and this is just a love tap between you two, two people i'm hoping have known one another for a while.

[cboy4]

22. Yea! What the fuck is wrong with us being opposed to

Democratic candidates enthusiastically including dangerous homophobes as part of their campaigns.

[readmoreoften]

28. Yeah. No one hates us. And there's no such thing as racism or sexism either.

Ah the luxury of ignorance... I unfortunately can't have that luxury. I have to keep my guard up.

[ruggerson]

34. I don't think anyone cares if you hate us

we just demand that a presidential candidate commit to us having the exact same rights that you do.

Your feelings aren't the issue. Our constitutional rights are.

[Countdown_3_2_1]

37. I don't hate you, nor does Obama. He never threatened gay rights.

We have a Majority in congress and a Democratic president on the horizon.
No one will threaten or harm equal rights for gays.
People are acting like big babies for no reason. Get a spine.

[ruggerson]

43. You already have your rights

You can marry, fight in the army, get a job and hold it, not get kicked out of your home by your landlord because of who you are, inherit tax free from your spouse so that neither of you loses your home, amongst many other things.

You probably take for granted most of these, which is perfectly understandable.

We don't have them yet. We're living a Jim Crow existence here in our own country.

When you accuse us of "whining," simply because we are demanding (not asking for) full equality and when you say we don't have a spine, because we are dogged in our pursuit of justice, you, whether you know it or not, are feeding the engines of the oppressor, not the oppressed.

Yes, people do hate us, despite your protests to the contrary. They hate us in huge numbers. They torture our youth, they harrass our senior population, and they continue to oppose our participation as full citizens in the country of our birth.

If I didn't have a spine, I wouldn't be asking Obama to do what is right and recommit to us, in the context of his message of hope. He has no problems talking about a whole host of other issues (many of which I agree with him on), so he could take an hour or two to right this and get us firmly on the bus.

[rucky]

15. Human rights is not a "special interest"

Obama needs to take a stronger stand on this.

[Honeycombe8]

17. I do not agree there was a "debacle." And if you think our President is going...

to be elected on the basis of "committing" to a gay rights cause or an African American cause, think again.

Ask Edwards if he would "commit." Or Clinton.

No, they won't. That's not how politicians win elections.

So you have to ask yourself, do you want to screw up an election, or do you want to win?

[Bluebear]

18. Ah, the old "you gays are screwing up the election" schtick again.

[Honeycombe8]

19. Well, you gotta ask yourself...."How did that tact work for us in 2004?"...

As a gay friend of mine said recently, I hope the gay activists lay low this time around, since I think that was the straw that broke the camel's back last time and helped us lose that election. His words, not mine. That doesn't mean giving up a cause. It means not feeding into the Republican's efforts to make things a wedge issue, to fire Mom and Pop Republican up enough to go vote. We want Mom and Pop Republican to stay home on voting day.

[Bluebear]

20. You just let us know when it's OK to speak up again, alright?

Let us know when it's politically expedient to do so and we will all just sit on the couch and learn "Oh-ba-ma!" chants, you know, just to fit in. We'll even bring hors d'oeuvres, you know how good we can cook. And then we'll be quiet until it's safe for us not to lose an election for you, OK?

[goldcanyonaz]

21. Nice to see the Pod People haven't gotten to you yet, Bluebear.

Keep yelling from the rooftop, it's the only way to bring about change.

[cboy4]

24. Oh, your "gay friend" huh?

He/She sounds like quite the rocket scientist. :sarcasm:

[FredScuttle]

25. Yeah, because Kerry wrapped himself in the rainbow flag in 2004

This "gay" friend of yours...does he answer to the name Harvey?

[readmoreoften]

29. Maybe gay activists like us should leave the party and take our money with us.

I'm not surprised a self-hating person hangs out with you.

[bullwinkle428]

41. Just like when the homophobes went nuts over the NJ gay marriage ruling in '06

prior to the mid-term elections, saying things like, "ZOMG, the Democrats are gonna get slaughtered for this!"

How did that work out for the Democrats?

[Smarmie Doofus]

35. You're right about this part:

>>>Ask Edwards if he would "commit." Or Clinton.>>>>

Their silence on this subject is telling; *deafening* really.

I can picture Clinton's braintrust banging their heads on the table: "Why didn't WE think of that?"





But wrong about this:

>>>>No, they won't. That's not how politicians win elections.

So you have to ask yourself, do you want to screw up an election, or do you want to win?>>>>

You present a false choice.

Obama should have handled it better.... and still can. He has to *explicitly* denounce the *ideas* expressed by McC. He should explicitly renounce ideas that GLBT's can , or ought to be "saved".

If he wants to say say that McC. and co. are also "children of God" and that he hopes to reform or enlighten them... that would work for me also. But he needs to communicate that they need to be REFORMED and ENLIGHTENED.

Just saying it's a big tent... gays are OK and also gay-haters... which seems to be what he's said so far will not cut it and he's going to be dogged by this for a long time.

He's a gifted politician. He's quite capable of chewing this gum and walking at the same time.

[TankLV]

77. Either you support us FULLY AND COMPLETELY or you don't.

If you don't, which is aparent from your posts, then if we decide to STAY HOME rather than support your soft bigotry of low expectations and desire to keep our mouths shut, then YOU ONLY HAVE YOURSELVES TO BLAIM if people like OBAMA lose do to sufficient lack of support.

We will not be ignored or "tolerate" just so you can have your way while we wait at the back of the bus as you would have us do - TIME AFTER FUCKING TIME...

[book_worm]

26. My gay sister and her partner are committed Obama supporters

and they have been trying to turn me on to Obama-and it's working.

[readmoreoften]

31. Yeah, and there are gay republicans too. So what?

I guess they never were snubbed by him in person like one lesbian poster was.

[Anouka]

50. The 'so what' is that they weighed him, and his positives outweighed mcclurkin.

gays are no more a monolith than blacks -- or whites.

now, what's this about a lesbian woman being snubbed by Obama? what exactly happened? was she snubbed *because* she was a lesbian? or was something else going on here? what is the full story?

[Perky]

27. Well, it might help if you did not compare Christianity to a concentration camp

It would certainly help you cause if you plea for assistance did not begin with a broad brush attack on Christianity. You have to understand that that equating religious life to a concentration camp is just as offensive to Christians as someone who claims homosexuality can be cured is to the gay community.

I readidly concede the point that there are significant elements of the Jews, Christians and Muslims who condemn homosexuality immoral and ungodly, but all these views typically emanate from a false sense of responsibility to be the world's moral police. That is a very serious theological error.

Criticism of those elements is justified by any and all who object.

At the same time there is a considerable positive intersection between progressive politics and faith that calls for justice and equality, peace and liberty for all of God's creation.

It serves no one's cause to create wedges between those elements and the gay community unnecessarily.

I have tried my best to tap into the anger felt by the GLBT community regarding both McGlurkin's views and Obama's silence and I concede that I don't fully understand it though I accept it as being genuine

My objection is that it dismisses all of Obama'a political history because he has been silent on this one instance. I do not think it is particularly fair and at some levels think it is disingenuous.
The GLBT community has perceived that the single episode was an episode of pandering at its ugliest

What is it that Obama can do to rectify his silence without appearing to be pandering to another group.

A simple apology?

Does he need to fight to rescind DOMA?

Should he support a constitutional amendment?

What can he do without alienating a whole other group of supporters?

[hulklogan]

30. The OP didn't call christianity a concentration camp

The OP called the ex-gay brainwashing torture facilities concentration camps. Which they are.

[Perky]

38. You are right. I was mistaken. I should have read the OP more carefully

I think the concentration camp is actually pretty darn accurate in those instances.

[readmoreoften]

33. Yo Mr. Ignorant: he IS talking about ex-gay camps.

Heartland? Love In Action? Ever hear of them? They are "centers" where gay children are sent by their parents to become straight. They are sexually abused and sometimes are stuck in these centers for a year or more.

One 19 year old mentally ill gay man in Dallas was basically abducted by these people, taken off his medication. His parents had to fight to get him out. And this guy's father is the pastor of the oldest Methodist church in Dallas. He totally accepts his son and was trying to get him out of the heartland camp.

There was a conference at Coral Ridge before D. James Kennedy died about forcing gays into conversion centers. Rabid fundamentalists believe that homosexuality is a contagious spiritual illness. Why would you think they don't want us quarantined?

And why do you think this is a BROADBRUSH attack on Christianity? Is EVERY Christian group valid because they put the word Christian in their title? What about the Christian Identity movement? You support them too?

Geez. Educate yourself on the issues before you attack.

[Perky]

40. You are right. I was mistaken. I should have read the OP more carefully

I think the concentration camp is actually pretty darn accurate in those instances.

It was not a broadbrush attack against Christiainity obviousli. I apologize for my error.

Having said that, I never implied that every Chsitian groupd was valid. In fact I said quite the opposite. The Chrisitian Identityt movement is a very small step away fro the Klan and under the guise of eurocentrism is patently racist.

[ruggerson]

44. What can he do without alienating other groups of supporters?

1) Address the "ex-gay" issue and reiterate quite clearly that he understands how damaging and wrong this evangelical fundamentalist movement is. Make it clear to us that he GETS it. No one is requesting that he do a mea culpa on his knees, we want to know that he understand how wrong it is to give a platform to bigotry.

2) Recommit and reaffirm the cause of equality for all citizens, regardless of sexual orientation, something that he should have no problem doing, since according to his words, that's what he supports.

[Perky]

55. I don't think that's unreasonable

but I would not hold out hop that it would happen before SC where he seems destined to lock up the nomination at this point. It simply is a cardinal rule of politics that you do not speak ill of your conduct if it is going to consume a news cycle.

I also wanted to directly apologize to you for the way I misinterpreted your OP.


Do you think Obama doesn't GET IT or do you think he was just pandering to a politically valuable constituency?

My tendency is to believe that he does in fact get it, but that once he got attacked for McGlurkin that he had no real way to walk it back without looking like he was pandering to the GLBT demands. That would not have gone over well in a Bible Belt state like South Carolina. You may not like that, but I assure you his ardent followers believe SC is the gateway to the nomination.


What I never understood about it was moving McGlurkin front and center in the show as emcee. I get a sense is that that is where the real irritation is. Not the initial inclusion of the homophobe, but the in your face, screw the GLBT elevation. I can't figure out if that was retribution for giving him no way out or ham-handedness redoubled. Given the general professionalism of his campaign, I have to assume it was more retributive.

That doesn't mean he does not get it, just that his minions hold a grudge.

at any rate, SC is the next tilt and he seems destined for the nomination if he wins there. If he wins SC based in no small measure to the support of AA ministers there will be plenty of time for clarity and mea culpas, but I think you can expect that only after he locks the nomination down,

[ruggerson]

67. I appreciate your apology

I kind of assumed you had misread it, since from your posts, I know you don't regularly accuse people of writing things they didn't write.

You may be right about South Carolina, and that the campaign has made the calculated decision not to address this until then.

And you are dead on correct in your analysis that what really angered a lot of people was the elevation, after the fact, of McClurkin to MC and giving him a platform to talk. It was, indeed, seen as very in your face and aggressively anti-gay. You may be right that his campaign advisors did it deliberately out of anger that gays and lesbians had made an issue out of it in the first place.

In any case, if he is our nominee, I want to support him. I think a lot of gays and lesbians and their straight allies do. I have about twenty other issues that I care about deeply, that I have written about on these boards, and on many of them I agree wholeheartedly with Obama. But this one issue is very personal, obviously, as it affects my family and my home very directly. All I want from him is to make this right. Then let's move beyond it.

[ripple]

36. I'm a lesbian and an Obama supporter

Barack has made his disagreement with McClurkin's views perfectly clear. McClurkin was a stupid campaign error, one that I'm confident won't be repeated. I have a lot more to say about the issue, but frankly, I'm getting tired of repeating myself every time one of these threads surfaces. Suffice it to say, I neither need, nor do I expect an apology from the Senator. I remain confident that he will do more to further equality-not just among gay and lesbian Americans, but among all Americans- than any other democratic candidate.

[TeamJordan23]

52. thank you. You are right, Obama has said he doesn't share McClurkin's views. nm

[Anouka]

54. please do have your say anyway

some of us are new and will have missed it the first time around. it would be nice to read.

i wish there was a political supporter, gender and race breakdown of those who demand the apology or Obama is forever branded a homophobe -- and those who disagree that he is a homophobe, to those preferring to believe that Obama in the White House will be to GLBTs' overall benefit no matter what one believes about his homophobia/homophilia.

i wonder if these types of threads are started from a place of true concern for GLBT issues, or if they've crossed over into sinister territory.

[ripple]

92. Ok

As I indicated, scheduling McClurkin on the faith tour was a campaign error. I'm all but certain the campaign didn't learn of his radical views until the tour had already been heavily promoted. Canceling him at that point would have been a boon for the media and would have drawn even more attention to his homophobic views. The pragmatic part of me also recognizes that such a move would have likely alienated many of the voters Obama was trying to appeal to. Not just people ignorant enough to share McClurkin's views, but fans of his music who don't care about his views, but were expecting to see him perform. There was no good solution to the problem. Instead of canceling McClurkin, Obama made the statement posted below (thanks, zuchzulu), expressly stating that he wholeheartedly disagrees with him.

If you look at Obama's record, he's been a consistent supporter of equality, justice, and human rights in general without regard to sexuality, race, socio-economic status, etc. He has the unique ability to frame these issues in a way that doesn't seem threatening to those who hold existing prejudices. Most everyone can get behind ideals like equality, justice, and fairness. Even bigots usually won't admit they're bigots. He's also voiced contempt for politicians that use issues like gay marriage to prey on peoples' ignorance and intolerance in an effort to rack up votes.

Instead of being drawn into the same old tit for tat over issues like gay rights and other areas of inequality, he appeals to the better nature of people by making these issues part of a broader constitutional context. In other words, he elevates the conversation to a place that isn't entrenched in long-held stereotypes and talking points. And he has the rare gift of inspiring people to reach for something better within themselves.

While there are still at least a few states left that haven't constitutionally sanctified discrimination (and mine isn't one of them), I don't think we can afford to keep doing more of the same. For what it's worth, most of my lesbian friends are backing Obama, as well.

Your speculation about the motivation for so many threads being posted here is interesting. I have no doubt that there are some LGBT folks that were genuinely upset about the McClurkin debacle (and I don't blame them, I just see things differently), but it certainly wouldn't surprise me if some just jumped on the bandwagon as yet another way to bash Obama.

Welcome to DU, BTW! :hi:

[Perky]

57. Do you have a link where he saysy he does not agree with McGlurkin?

[zulchzulu]

86. Here ya go...

The quote:

"I have clearly stated my belief that gays and lesbians are our brothers and sisters and should be provided the respect, dignity, and rights of all other citizens. I have consistently spoken directly to African-American religious leaders about the need to overcome the homophobia that persists in some parts our community so that we can confront issues like HIV/AIDS and broaden the reach of equal rights in this country.

I strongly believe that African Americans and the LGBT community must stand together in the fight for equal rights. And so I strongly disagree with Reverend McClurkin's views and will continue to fight for these rights as President of the United States to ensure that America is a country that spreads tolerance instead of division."

http://pride.barackobama.com/page/content/lgbthome

[zulchzulu]

87. Thanks for speaking about this n/t

[Alexander]

39. Well, most of America is homophobic and won't care about this.

It sucks, but that's the way it is right now.

I'm happy enough that he supports civil unions. The same position as Hillary and Edwards.

[ruggerson]

45. Which is exactly why we have to keep it on the front burner

Women didn't get the vote by being quiet. Blacks didn't win equality by shutting up. Gays and lesbians will get their equal place at the table, by demanding it over and over and over again, even if this is not what some of the Obama supporters care to hear.

[Kucinich4America]

46. Nice to see so many Kucinich supporters here today!

You ARE all Kucinich supporters, right?

[CyberPieHole]

48. K&R for Donnie McClurkin...n/t

[zulchzulu]

84. If Obama apologized for the McClurkin event, would you then consider him pandering?

I've made my point several times regarding the one concert where McClurkin performed in a small town in South Carolina with three other performers one evening.

Yes, he wasn't properly vetted even though he had performed for the Clintons before.

Yes, he sang and actually spoke to the crowd, who also saw a gay minister open the concert talking about how bad homophobia is.

Yes, McClurkin, like Reverand Harold Mayberry (on Hillary's web site) and others, have made questionable statements on homosexuality.

Yes, Obama made a firm statement regarding McClurkin's past statements and about homophobia. Yes, for some, that wasn't good enough.

Yes, some people are willing to call not only Obama, but all of his supporters, homophobes because of one concert one night in a small town where one man sang and talked with three other performers.

Should Obama apologize for one concert one night in a small town where one man sang and talked with three other performers where he condemned that one person's views in the past even though he has fought hard for equal rights for the gay community his whole career?

Will those same people who are complaining about one concert one night in a small town where one man sang and talked with three other performers accept his apology or just tantamountingly call him a panderer who wants to get their vote even though he condemned the one concert one night in a small town where one man sang and talked with three other performers?

Probably.

[ruggerson]

89. Absolutely not

I would think he was making a very smart move to lock down the rather large percentage of this nation that is gay and lesbian and votes Democratic. (4-5% in exit polls, and of those 4-5%, they are overwhelmingly Democratic, so you do the math).

I also think he would be doing the right thing morally. So he would be killing two birds with one stone.

Do you honestly think he would lose black, evangelical voters if he made a simple statement of apology to gays and lesbians, explained his understanding of how dangerous the "ex-gay" movement is, and reconfirmed his commitment to their cause?

I don't. And I think he would further strengthen his candidacy.

[Sandaasu]

91. It would be nice.

I'm nearly ready to support him again anyway, since he has been consistently good since then. I still worry some about the fact that he won't simply say that it shouldn't have happened. I think that it's the right thing to do when someone you invited to a campaign event spouts his harmful bigotry at the event itself.