I just want to say the disgusting email Dennis Kucinich sent out attacking John Edwards has forever

[saracat]

lost him any respect that I had for the man.I no longer believe he is genuine in any way regarding his priciples.He has proven himself to be a cheap shyster politician and jealous to boot.I am ashamed that I ever admired him and I am now pleased tha he doesn't endorse my candidate of choice.An endorsement by such as he would only be an embarassment. I am mad at myself that i believed in the man and his message.Sorry I just had to vent.I am sickened.

[CountAllVotes]

1. DK has lost me too

I don't like the way he has slammed Edwards. Who does he support? And no, I am not really that awed by his new wife. I find her to be bizarre as all hell to be honest w/you.

I did not get his latest email yet. I'll have to go and check it out.

He is not longer my candidate of choice, that is for sure.

So you are not alone!!

:dem:

[MadBadger]

3. He loves her, what else matters?

At least the OP has a decent reason.

[saracat]

5. I dunno about the wife.She struck me as intelligent enough but she did stand me up onece for an

interview.Dennis has always been courteous and nice to me and oddly, I liked him better this year than ever before I thought he had "grown" and was more convincing. I never thought he could be elected but he was garnering more respect and he was certainly easier on the ears with a better delivery. And now this.It is just nasty and an absolute betrayal of those things he supposedly respects. It has to be jealousy.

[eridani]

31. It's being pissed that Edwards colluded with Clinton in forcing him out of the debates

I really wish he had been honest enough to say so. Also that Obama had walked his "include all the candidates" talk and refused to participate.

Still, I'm a 100% issues type of caucuser, and it will still be Kucinich, second choice Edwards, for me. I really do get where people in primary states are coming from, however.

[Donnachaidh]

42. you of course have PROOF of this allegation?

And please spare us the *he didn't throw a fit to keep him in it* reason -- that's just such a LAME juvenile response.

Collusion is a serious charge -- back it up with FACTS. REAL facts, not crybaby rumors after the fact. :grr:

[eridani]

49. I'll have to look around for the video--it was all over DU when it happened

Dennis heard it, and I don't think he'd lie about that. Even the Fortress thing isn't a lie, it just isn't the whole truth.

[Wetzelbill]

52. yeah that would be when Edwards was caught saying it

last summer, when he thought the mike was off. It sorta played all over the news etc for several days.

[puebloknot]

45. I have met Dennis Kucinich a couple of times, and your depiction of him here...

...is 180 degrees from my experience of the man and his message. So his wife stood you up once! There might have been a good reason for that, but it seems a merely personal matter, and not of any import with regard to Kucinich and his platform for change for the whole country.

I am going through the same concerns that many people are who have supported Kucinich. If he can't win -- and there are powerful forces that are determined to censor him at every turn -- then who can I vote for, in good conscience? I have been leaning toward supporting Edwards as the best choice of the three candidates we are being allowed to vote for, but I have always had serious concerns about his participation in the IWR, and his support of the Patriot Act. At least he has done his "mea culpa," but millions have died as a result of that decision, in which he was involved.

I doubt that Dennis Kucinich would put out an e-mail with this information about Edwards and his involvement in that hedge fund without strong evidence to back it up. Rather than accusing Dennis of jealousy and a nasty betrayal, it seems that some evidence on your part to refute that assertion would be very helpful.

I have never been concerned over superficial considerations about whether Dennis was "easier on the ears with a better delivery." Anyone who bothers to listen to the man's message with sincerity will look past whether he's Hollywood sharp, and consider that this country is going down the tubes, and PR considerations are the least of our worries. Gandhi did a pretty good job of inciting a peaceful revolution in India in a loincloth. America needs to get past its adolescent focus on designer suits and good lighting, and listen to what is being offered to those who would be President. There is a reason the rest of the world looks at America as crass and unevolved!

[eridani]

50. The info in the email is true--it just is incomplete

Dennis neglected to mention the inconvenient little fact that Obama is getting five times as much from investment bankers as Edwards.


Dennis is acting like a regular human being who doesn't want to admit the fault of making a bad strategic decision while being pissed off.

[puebloknot]

54. Well, I have to say that when Dennis asked his supporters...

...to vote for Obama in the second round, I was very puzzled about why he would support him, instead of Edwards.

I agree with what you've said here. I'm not a DK cult follower by any means. I just think people attack him and ridicule him sometimes without listening to what the man has to say.

I think it's extremely troublesome that Dennis has been excluded from debates. I want to make my own decisions about him, and all the candidates. But I agree that he is a "regular human," not the savior that some of his camp followers think he is.

Thanks for weighing in.

[eridani]

57. Besides being pissed at Edwards, Kucinich was probably not sleeping much

And he is still mourning the death of his brother. Getting cold the way you need to be about strategy is never easy, and particularly not under such stressful conditions.

[Yael]

63. Exactly.

[bobthedrummer]

2. His introduction of impeachment proceedings against Richard B. Cheney

prove him to be "a cheap shyster politician"-saracat, I hope you are using some words in ignorance of their connotations in your venting-I'm voting for him, again, and will advocate for his platform.

[madrchsod]

9. what email ?

[melody]

4. It certainly harmed my opinion of him n/t

[madrchsod]

6. do you have a link to the email?

[saracat]

7. It is right on the greatest page

[Truth2Tell]

10. Here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3969318

[Kucinich4America]

8. Something you may want to consider...

I will support my candidate through my state's caucus. But I'm grounded in reality enough to admit that Dennis may not win the nomination, as wrong and pathetic as that is.

So if Edwards, Obama, or Hillary want the votes of Kucinich supporters, it might not be such a good idea to talk shit about Dennis.

The Hillbots have already done so to the point where I wouldn't consider voting for Hillary even IF Jesus zapped her with a bolt of lightning and turned her into an actual Liberal. I've seen attacks from the Edwards camp increasing around here in the last week.

If you don't like what Dennis is saying about John's questionable financing, maybe it's John who needs to explain himself? If he's going to co-opt the Kucinich platform as his own, he should at least be serious about it.

[saracat]

12. Sorry but Kuccinich has already given his blessing and has spewed a lot of "questionable"

distortions himself to make his point.I could care less about anyone who buys into that stuff.They won't likely support John anyway.This is all about Dennis ego.And I am really disappointed.Whatever.

[puebloknot]

46. Dennis Kucinich doesn't *spew*! nt

[saracat]

14. And you apparently think it is okay for DK to talk shit about Edwards?Wow.

And I just love the fact that out of all the Dems DK is the one now sucking up to FOX and on Hannity no less. Ugh.

[madrchsod]

26. good god man don`t you know......

if a candidate has an opinion that goes against the mainstream media democrats his ideas and opinions are not worth discussing? the "little man" has no business even questioning the mainstream media democrats and neither are dennis supporters. we need to keep our place.

[saracat]

29. Nah.This reminds me of Nader.If DK cam't have it his way he wants to damage the one viable

progressive in the race.And to throw his little support to the candidate business likes the best? Fortunately he hasn't enough influence to do much damage but this is absolutely mean spirited of DK.

[lisainmilo]

30. DK supporters made at least 200,000 phone calls in NH

If he asks his supporters to go to Obama, tips the scale. I think it was rather immature.

http://www.cmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080103/OPINION/801030323/1017

[maximusveritas]

11. An Edwards supporter calling someone else a "cheap shyster politician"?

That's interesting.

[saracat]

13. I wouln't go there if I were you.

[maximusveritas]

16. So you have some evidence to back up your charge

against Kucinich?

Something other than him not liking your candidate?

[saracat]

24. That backstabbing email is enough.

[puebloknot]

47. That was an up-front e-mail,, not backstabbing. That's your melodramatic...

...view of it, and it really appears that you have a personal axe to grind with Dennis Kucinich *and* his beautiful wife that is driving this ongoing rant.

[MalloyLiberal]

15. He needs to be primaried in Ohio, I hope someone is up for it

[MalloyLiberal]

17. saracat, I applaud you for Edwards

but PLEASE reconsider supporting Hillary or liking her at all.
I'd rather you just not vote to be honest, I don't like Obama either, but please not her!

[saracat]

21. I do not support Hillary.What makes you think I do?

[MalloyLiberal]

25. I think there was a post, maybe not from you,

but someone with the Eliz icon, saying, Hillary did well
:barf:
Edwards totally showed her to be the vicious monster she is!

[saracat]

28. I did say she did well.She did. It doesn;t mean I support her.I also said Edwards won!

Hillary will not get my vote for many reasons.I was merely talking "presentation".

[Divine Discontent]

34. same as I felt. n/t

[featherman]

18. I had the pleasure of meeting both the Kucinuch's at

the California Democratic Convention this year. Both Elizabeth and Dennis are interesting, intelligent, very committed progressives, and gracious personally. However they are deluded to think that Dennis can win the Presidency of the United States in our personality driven type of election system. He might do better in a Parliamentary system perhaps. But it just ain't happenin' in a real world modern American election. I'm surprised this is not more obvious to the many good people who have been his supporters.

[riqster]

69. Primaries are about electing convention delegates, not candidates

...so votes for Kucinich mean more progressive delegates, which means a more progressive platform. People need to research the process. Kooch will probably not be the nominee, but that's no reason not to support him.
And before you slam him for being too liberal to win, keep in mind that the majority of Americans are with him on Impeachment and other issues.

The email seemed to me to be straightforward-Edwards has profited handsomely from the subprime industry, which has hurt many thousands of working Americans, while laying on rhetoric that supports those same people whose misery lined his own pockets. I'm OK with Kooch calling him on it.

BTW, I called Kooch on the stupid-assed Ron Paul fiasco, and ya know what? DK backed off when he saw that his supporters were pissed. Has Edwards sold off Fortress and distributed his profits to those hurt by the subprime con? ANY and EVERY human being fucks up. What matters to me is what they do next.

Even the Obama 'support' was tepid at best and qualified.

[Occam Bandage]

19. Oh, how delightful it is

when the self-blinding purists collide.

[madrchsod]

20. why the big concern about dennis?

why should anyone care about what he says? he`s never going to win. dennis will have no effect any other candidates chances of winning...maybe it`s best we just move along and ignore the little man from ohio. so good bye dennis

[glowing]

22. I'm not sure what Kucinich's angle is? I don't think he should have

been thrown out of the debates, but I don't like what he's been doing over the last couple of weeks. Its very odd. I know Kucinich is principled and a hard worker and he probably would make a good President... But I looked at Edwards and Kucinich's platforms and they are somewhat similar... Edward's are much more practicle.. Kucinich's would really take bottom up change... That means change at local and state levels to support such dramatic, sweeping changes... and we don't have the people in place at those levels to make it happen.

And Edwards has been really positive this whole time.. There are a few mistakes and tactical errors.. a few hotheads who write snarky comments on blogs. He talks tough, but inspires me to work just as tough, and he doesn't have this messiah-savior type thing going on. He's not a fad... he's just a work horse. And after dim-wit, we need someone willing to work and do some hard work.

I think that any of the top candidates have questionable records and questionable intrested earnings.. but lets get real.. the way it is now, one has to have the money and the finance to run a major campaign. Until real regulation occurs and a mandated telelivised station of our national airwaves is created to showcase all local, state, and federal candidates... then the American people only have 30 sec. sound bytes and MSM.... Even then, most of America barely tunes into the "World News" during the evening... and they cover Britney Spears and Paris Hilton and Natalie Hollaway...

I did donate a little to Kucinich during his Money-Bomb to try and help the progressive message. However, I have joined Edwards and I am working to elect someone who I believe does get it and is inspired by us to work harder.

[oasis]

23. Obama needs to put a muzzle on Kooch until after the primaries.

:spank:

[madrchsod]

27. yes-- dennis has been a bad doggie

[DFLforever]

32. Did you ever consider he might truly mean what he said

even if you believe he's wrong about JE?

I don't think he's the only person who questions John Edward's sincerity.

[saracat]

35. So he prefers the candidate that big business likes, the one with

the most heathcare, pharma , and lobbyists contributons other than Hillary? So he is willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater? Then he is just an idiot! And I don't care what he believes any longer. But hey thats just me, and i feel like an idiot for ever even thinking DK was somehow "above the fray".He apparently isn't.

[DFLforever]

38. I think DK is above the fray

and that is why he has NO chance of winning.

[Divine Discontent]

36. Obama's getting that, also

more than a few of my friends, not all, but several, either say they don't trust him at all, or one even thinks he very well could be a conspiracy Muslim in disguise... no comment. lol but still, there's people who question the sincerity of anyone running for president. In fact, Hill gets it too. They all do. They just have to keep trying to prove they are who they are, and I think Edwards is showing it the most with who he won't take money from that the others do. And, that he won't have any lobbyists who are there for corporations trying to lead him a certain way on policy, because he won't take their money. I like that he's up 9 points nationally in a week, that gives me hope.

[DFLforever]

41. I know -

common enough for our candidates. I'm slowly becoming an Obama supporter
myself.

But I wish John the best and am glad to see him rising in national polls.
I'd love our choice to come down to Obama and Edwards.

[Divine Discontent]

44. that would be great n/t

[BigBearJohn]

33. Well, Dennis was on Hannity's show tonite and Hannity says he really likes Dennis. Go figure.

gave me a chill, to say the least.

[saracat]

40. And doesn't that make you wonder about a deal with the 'devil' ?

[surfermaw]

71. Hannity only likes rep. or people that help rep's

[Pachamama]

37. I was shocked when I read it and very turned off...I was so offended by it that I actually won't

donate to Kucinich anymore and actually am going to take the time to write to his campaign. It doesn't make me change my mind about him as a person or think everything he talks about is no longer true or wasn't real, but it does make me think he's a bit out of touch if he is focused on what he claims about Edwards and doesn't recognize the big picture and all the other good that Edwards stands for.

Then again, maybe he's done a favor for Edwards. Maybe being seen as supported by Kucinich could be a kiss of death if spun by the right wing correctly.

In any event, I agree with you that this letter from Kucinich was shameful. But I wouldn't call DK a sheister politician and jealous. Misguided is what I'd call him. And that's disappointing, because I really like Dennis.

[saracat]

39. You are nicer than I am. I am just furious and sickened.But maybe it is more at me for thinking DK

would never do such a thing!

[Pachamama]

43. Don't get me wrong Saracat - I'm furious and sickened too...but like you, I got the opportunity to

meet them and I really think there isn't a cruel or calculating bone in his body or essence. But I do think he's misguided and that couldn't be more clear in these actions of his. But I also really believe that it may in the end backfire and that it will hurt Obama more than it will help him. I am however going to write to the Kucinich campaign so that they know this was not cool and that it cost DK some of his credibility and support and that there won't be anymore $$$ coming his way after this one

[ButterflyBlood]

48. What'd it say?

Anyone got the full text?

I agree it sounds disgusting though.

[autorank]

51. I'm sorry you feel betrayed. Some friendly advice.

Don't believe any politician and certainly don't believe in any politician.

Believe in your self, what you learn, and your trusted friends and family.

There's no reason to believe "in" them. It's just a wish on our part for a happy ending.
Well, they're far and few between for these politicians, no matter what their views.

Just trust U!

[Wetzelbill]

53. Edwards caught on video last summer was worse

when he was talking about shutting out other candidates from the debates. I think in a way he had a point, it is tough to discern opinions and issues when the stage is crowded, but that's democracy. That pissed DK off. I lost some respect for Edwards for awhile over that myself. It was just a bad move.

And Dennis sending out that email was a bad move too. He does have a point and it is accurate though. But I think Edwards is a better man than how he is portrayed in that. I also think DK telling his supporters to go over to Obama last week was petty too, considering he and JE have more in common on progressive issues. I'm a little pissed at DK for those as well.

But for me, the bottom line is, both of these guys stand and fight for issues that I believe in. These incidences are unfortunate, but they are both far better than most politicians. They both come from humble backgrounds and understand what it's like out there for people like myself and most others in this country. So they both got into some petty garbage. It's nothing compared to what most others do.

[caseycoon]

55. The important thing is Dennis' message

Did I like the e-mail? No.
Did I like it when he told his supporters to go with Obama? No.
BUT HEY! His message hasn't changed. When he talks about the issues he hits the nail on head every time. When he is interviewed he just straight out answers the questions. He doen't do a a cute little dance around them.

Now. Do I think he can win the presidency? No. I never did. Too bad, but that's the way it is. I am supporting him & I have donated to him because the longer he can stay out there giving his message the better it is. I still believe he is the most honest & has the best message.

That said, I am supporting John Edwards as my second choice.

[caseycoon]

58. Also...

I think that many people who hear what he has to say will be wanting 'their' candidate to do some, if not all, of the things Dennis says he would do. The more people working for that, the better our chances of restoring our country to what it is supposed to be. The better the chances of restoring the dream.

[robbedvoter]

56. Here's that video where Edwards wants to exclude DK from debates

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSoCHfyYCew
"We're the big guys - the little guys can't play - he tells Hillary - how very
progressive!

DK has walked the walk - Edwards just talks pretty and ALWAYS does the opposite.

[LWolf]

59. I'm sorry to hear that.

I think it's appropriate that he address people's questions about his Iowa suggestions, and I appreciate him doing so.

As a diehard DK supporter, that doesn't mean I would ever consider putting Obama "on my table," so to speak, or move Edwards "off."

If you are looking for "nasty" campaign emails to rail against, it would be better to look at those sent out by the other "top" camps: Obama and Clinton.

Edwards is the most likely beneficiary of DK voters should he have to drop out. As an Edwards supporter, I hope you recognize that and don't burn any bridges behind you.

I'm still voting for DK. He still has my respect, my appreciation, and my support. Edwards, if he acts to support his current more palatable stances, can get that, as well. I certainly won't hold any grudges.

With all due respect, I don't think Kucinich and his supporters, are the "enemies" Edwards and his campaign need to defeat to win the nomination.

[MadHound]

60. Frankly I think that DK has every right to be pissed at Edwards

After that little stunt last fall with Edward's mike open, and the fact that Edwards has shamelessly stolen much of his platform from Kucinich, I think if I were DK I would be pissed to, and throwing my support somewhere, anywhere else than a phony, everchanging politico who talks the talk, but doesn't walk the walk.

I simply don't get the attraction to Edwards, his schtick is as transparent as glass, his record is bad, and the only reason that he's come out being a populist this time around is because the center, which is his true forte', has become really crowded with Clinton and Obama.

Oh, and while Kucinich continues to walk the walk, one look at Edwards donor lists shows that he is no better than the others, another corporate whore taking money from anybody who will give it to him, including the financial sector, legal sector, and many others.

But lordy, lordy, how people are fooled by the man. He comes out with the populist rhetoric, puts on a big show of contrition, and people think that he's the next coming of Eugene Debs. And people jump on the bandwagon without thinking because they want to back a winner, a name, the symbol of populism who has absolutely none of the substance. Boy, you folks will be severely disappointed when Edwards starts showing his true stripes, those of simply another corporate whore and warmonger.

[info being]

61. I admit that I'm pissed at DK. But you're also probably right about Edwards.

Dennis is such a double-edged sword. On one hand, I loved him because of his purity. On the other, I wanted him to play the game well enough to have a chance at real power. Edwards might error a bit much on playing the game, but maybe I kind of like the idea that someone with my beliefs has an actual shot at the presidency.

If Dennis were smart, he'd do what Edwards is doing with Obama: agree about his message but disagree on what it takes to get us there.

[Yael]

62. It was unnecessary.

He lost me in the YouTube debates. This sealed it.

I like many of his platforms, but will never support him.

[LynneSin]

64. I've always questioned the genunity of Kucinich when he flip-flopped on choice

As you know, Kucinich was anti-choice up until he decided to throw his name into the ring for the 2004 nomination.

Now I'm grateful that Kucinich has seen the light when it comes to choice, but I still feel that the whole thing was nothing more than pandering to the pro-choice women after years of battling against us. Had Kucinich never gotten involved with presidential politics would he had still converted?

But the ironic thing is - Kucinich stands the same chance as a snowball in hell to get the nomination. So stuff like his letter about Edwards or his stance on choice are all kinda a moot point.

[no name no slogan]

65. Gore voted anti-choice up until 1988

And he suddenly "saw the light". It's not that uncommon for a politician to change his/her position on an issue.

[LynneSin]

66. First time I considered supporting Gore as a Candidate was 2000

Personally, I felt the same way about Gore in 1988. So perhaps in 2016, if Kucinich runs again, I might believe him to truly be pro-choice.

[LynneSin]

68. And another note on Gore: In 2000 I was supporting Bill Bradley

So I've only ever supported Gore because he was my only choice

[AlertLurker]

67. I am of the opposing opinion.

Edwards is a slimey douchebag. He's a liar and a fraud. I thought DK was forbearing in his criticism of JRE, actually:

He failed to mention that Edwards invested HALF of his personal fortune, some $16 MILLION, into this hedge fund, (which specializes in leveraging sub-prime lenders ) then worked for them for 14 months, earning a $459,000 salary and $150,000 in corporate and personal donations from Fortress's "staff."

He still will not talk about the work he did for Fortress and obviously lied when he said that he did not know the nature of Fortress's investments.

Yep, certainly sounds like the corporate antithesis that Edwards' supporters say he is...

[bpeale]

70. me too. in fact, i don't think he should retain the office he currently holds.

[Desertrose]

72. Did Dennis tell the truth in that email or did he tell lies?

Honestly,I didn't think it was a big deal.

Is it true what he said about Edwards?
Does he have those connections to Fortress Investment Group?
Is he taking big money from Washington lobbyists??
Is there any truth in what Dennis said?

Edwards is part of the system...big money, corporations, insurance. This should not be news here people. That being said, of the choices available this time around, I consider him my (rather distant) second choice. I met him once and he is most charming. Do I believe he is as progressive as he wants me to think he is, not really. But its ok. He is a politician. Nuff said.

As to Dennis's Obama thing...it was strictly strategy on his part for Iowa only.I never took it as "Hey, I endorse this candidate". I took it to mean that "if you vote him second time where I am not viable, then maybe I can change something with the top three here". Thats all. No more no less.

And yeah, as a poster upthread mentioned...the primaries are for getting delegates and hopefully some of what we want on the platform. I want more of DK's ideas to be mentioned. I realize,barring a miracle, we will have our choices made in one of the corporate candidates, but until then I am for Dennis and I am damn grateful he is speaking up about a lot of things.

I find it both amusing and annoying that some people here complain DK doesn't know how to play the games and then when he actually does, they hate him for it.

Seems like for Dennis there is just no pleasing some people.

DR

[SaveElmer]

73. God knows I am NOT a Kucinich fan...

But I saw nothing incorrect in that letter. In fact he went pretty easy on Edwards...there is so much more he could have brought up...