Women. A cautionary tale.

[cali]

Women didn't like the way Clinton was treated over the last few days. That should be a huge lesson to the MSM and the blogosphere. Women voted overwhelmingly for Clinton, and lot of them evidently broke for her at the last moment. 57% of the voters in the dem primary in NH were women. And they spoke.

[youthere]

1. Damn straight.

[goldcanyonaz]

2. She won the debate this past weekend, and the voters took notice.

[William769]

5. People are also forgetting the economy, check the exit polls.

The people favored Hillary.

[goldcanyonaz]

9. Thanks William, it's like she's always damned around here and it pisses me off!

[William769]

12. Thats how I feel.

She won tonight because she is Hillary it's not just one thing or another, it's the whole package.

[AX10]

45. She is damned around here.

This place is like Hannity for the far left.

[Egnever]

51. Cause we think she wants to continue the military industrial complex

We are like hanity?

[SayitAintSo]

3. Ditto ... I absolutly agree! n/t

[Maven]

4. You're right.

Attacks on her that are perceived as sexist could be her "teflon," the same way that attacks on Obama that were perceived to have racial undertones helped him rather than hurt him.

[Sparkly]

6. Exactly -- that's what makes me happy tonight....

I hope it's a lesson for the COUNTRY. I hope they look at this and figure it out.

[spooky3]

7. agree

[robbedvoter]

19. Karma is a bitch!

:-)

[usregimechange]

8. And I would ask women to consider not making an emotional decision

when deciding the POTUS

[bluedawg12]

11. I would ask men not make an emotional decision

when picking POTUS.

[spooky3]

14. please quit the patronizing BS

I'll listen to this when I see an equal expression of your concern about the emotions that elected white male presidents in all prior elections including over half of them where women were not permitted to vote, your chastising of African Americans who support Obama, etc.

[cali]

16. and I would ask you to contemplate your sexism. It's most unattractive.

All voters make decisions that are, in part, rooted in emotion. To claim that women do so, and imply that men don't, is a picture of rank bigotry. And you know what that makes you, right?

[robbedvoter]

22. You know us, hormonal and all that - we can't help it! Thanks for the patronizing!

I may calm down by the time I have to vote - depends on how you and the rest of the troglodytes behave...

[sandnsea]

24. As a woman, seems like a reasonable request n/t

[Iris]

33. And I'd ask the fella on Air America today to not vote based on his love of hip-hop

Seriously. Someone called and said he'd vote for Obama because he (the voter) loves hip-hop.

Some people vote for dumb reasons - and they're not all women.

[PATRICK]

41. You stepped into that one

What about the infamous white backlash, angry white male and finally the "bubba" vote? Almost all male and almost all completely stupid except that Bill Clinton finally neutralized it back toward the Dems(which might click a light bulb concerning their smarts this time around). The women generally are most justified with better goals and considering the American public hasn't gotten a presidential election right on the issues since...I can't remember...this is one of a host of ways of reaching through the murk toward the people. In fact, lighting a simple torch is what Obama had banked on as well reaching out to Independents to help him defeat Dems in a Dem primary.

We will get nowhere by trying to reform the voter. That is up to the candidates to lead. Politics as usual applies to the people as well and very very often they are the least capable of morphing en masse into totally educated, on the same track objective(hah) quantities you can reach with facts and rational arguments. Like DU??? It is always, even in a non-rigged oppressive system, an emotional rather than philosophical quantity.

Speaking of emotions. Now is a good time to apply that advice to ourselves and get off the gloating sniping bash down bandwagon, because if any of the GOP is on track it is precisely that and whether the state of the voter is up to snuff or not the needless negativity(bred from fear or insecurity or whatever) shows the high-minded critic as the real patsy for the GOP con game.

Back to square one and everyone shining brilliantly. Advantage Hillary. But no inevitability anymore which is just fine to the later 48 states.

Like Pitt said, it doesn't matter which putative leader wins. It matters that we become engaged in the fight of our lives in November. And WE will win, unless we are letting OUR emotions work actively for the GOP.

[bluedawg12]

10. Yea, it's been pretty clear that she

was being attacked in a rather ugly way- the headlines yesterday were particularly nasty.

But winning is the best revenge- " She is so today!"

[liberalmuse]

13. Yeah, I could see it. I was pissed myself.

It was kind of a reminder of all sorts of women's issues for me. I realized that Bush can cry like a girl, and no one says anything ("Oh, he's so sincere!"), but Hillary, who is 10 times the person he is almost sheds a tear and she's a weak woman, incapable of handling the Presidency. How insulting! Then I remembered that males, no matter what color, had the vote before women. Then I realized I might prefer a female President, and that Hillary is certainly not as bad as Margaret Thatcher, so why not? Anyway, it got the hamster wheel spinning faster than normal.

[Beausoir]

15. Uh huh. And we need you to warn we women about this. Why? You jumped on the Obama bandwagon.

Sorry. It's not really personal, but you don't need to lecture any of us about sexism in this election.

You jumped for Obama at the last minute and now you are daring to presume to speak for us?

[cali]

20. I didn't speak for women. I made an observation, expressed an opinon

that's the purpose of DU. duh.

I get to say what I feel like here. Don't like it? Tough shit.

[Beausoir]

Duh! You can jump on any bandwagon you like! Especially at the last minute!

How astute!

Do NOT lecture me about feminism and politics.

[cali]

31. sour grapes.

but continue your high dudgeon and sanctimonious indignation. It's quite entertaining. I'm enjoying it. And I say what I want, pookie.

:rofl:

[Beausoir]

34. You are a mile wide and an inch deep, Cali. You put your finger up to the wind and see which way it

blows.

And then you come back and try to peddle your opinions. And your opinions seem to change by the hour.

That's called....no integrity. No solid convictions.

Not buying your schtick.

And...LOVE the cute smileys you post. How intelligent and serious you are.

[cali]

38. LOL! are your wittle feelings hurt

because when you tried to condescend to me on another thread, you got schooled- and not just by me? How sad.

And if there's one thing I don't do, pumpkin, it's buy my ideas wholesale or go with the prevailing winds. Most people here have the intelligence to see the obvious. Too bad you don't.

[Beausoir]

39. I have NO idea what you are talking about. As usual, your ego supercedes reality.

But...glad to see you managed to make a smiley-free post.

You are learning.

[robbedvoter]

17. Indeed they don't. hell hath no fury - I'm only now starting to cool down...

[Little Star]

18. How many men in NH skewed toward Hillary? Any body know?

[sandnsea]

25. They voted Obama, last I heard n/t

[bain_sidhe]

37. Musta been that gender-bias, huh? n/t

[Bongo Prophet]

21. I do hope they pick up on that, cali. It is a good lesson that their games can backfire

The GOP will not be so happy about it either, and that makes me smile.

:toast:

[robbedvoter]

28. Rachel Madow told Tweety that TPM said it was his fault - he made women angry

he looked shocked and was extremely subdued after that.
But I don't watch Tweety. I saw the tabloids - day after day - and what got to me was DU - really. because I was expecting better from progressive men. But the "moment" and the "crying" threads were multiplying like rabbits...So, now I am glad.

[bluedawg12]

35. You nailed it. Rachel cleaned his

clock and he was shocked that his misogyny was so apparent to all.

I think Rachel intimidates old tweety. But then...so does Hilary.

You're right about the "crying" none sense- she was choked up for a moment and then regained composure - people carried on in the MSM like she was sobbing.

[tblue37]

56. What did TPM and Rachel say about Tweety? n/t

[Bongo Prophet]

46. Nothing will reform them, for sure - but when people just stop falling for stupid shit, it...

shocks the system. Makes the pundits have to back off and rethink their dramas.
A little work, and they don't like that.

As to the DUers acting poorly, I think a great majority of progressive men (like me) are staying away from the fight for ever lower levels of childish muck.
The "dialog" is so low, it hurts - I have no interst in making enemies or trading barbs with disrupters. Irrational enough, this world.
So what is left?---a self selection of jerks, battling as if playing a video game.
Jerks with varying agendas, of course.

The better people will trickle in as 'crazytime' wanes.
Here's to HOPING for CHANGE - I am READY;)

[robbedvoter]

47. Very well said - and I know it to be true....

Both the part about better people staying away and the chance to improve the dialogue :hi:

[sandnsea]

23. Fairly, yeah, can't do that

This is so ridiculous I cannot even believe it. If you can't criticize her, she wins. I hope you realize that.

[Hobarticus]

26. Or, they simply liked her positions better...

Hard to believe, I know, but maybe, just maybe, it played out that way.

[BenDavid]

27. A great victory tonight for HRC and high five to the people of

New Hampshire.

Shalom
Ben David

[Beausoir]

29. And now... the rest of us get to vote! It's gonna get good!

[Adsos Letter]

30. women are sick,sick, sick and tired of ....

being characterized in all the bullshit ways that have dogged them for centuries...

I hope they take the opportunity to kick some serious ass...

[goldcanyonaz]

40. Yes!

[Anouka]

54. Then it's ironic that Hillary is only in this race because of her husband

n'est-ce pas?

[Adsos Letter]

55. No

[bluedawg12]

32. For days I have heard about "likability"

that one candidate has more likability than another. Now that trumps reason and policy and relies on emotion.

But, emotion got us 8 years of the "guy everyone would most like to be with at a BBQ."

[goldcanyonaz]

36. Ever think that women saw the results in Iowa and didn't like them?

And, they got off their asses and voted?

[robbedvoter]

48. I don't see it. Maybe because I for one did like the Iowa results. I celebrated twice.

I felt it was a provoked reaction - they were loosening their belts and spreading their gut with pleasure that they did away with "the bitch" and forgot to pay attention to the little angry woman behind them...
This morning I had a confrontation with a guy selling newspapers in the street. 3 NYC tabloids had the "crying" close-up. I looked and said "disgusting!"
"Don't buy it if you don't like it" he screamed as personally attacked. "No chance in hell I would"

[HughMoran]

42. I as a man had sympathy for her too

The MSM pissed me off so bad that her being at the polling station and shaking my hand was enough to earn my vote today.

[robbedvoter]

49. That is the most uplifting post I read today!

[HughMoran]

43. dupe

.

[undercutter2006]

44. i agree

the kind of shit that they had been saying her about her in the last couple of days, first about her so called 'moment' when she was just being tough and forcefull, and then about her 'crying' which was actually not crying just her being emotional for a second, that kind of sexist shit that those incidents brought out in people would make almost anybody wish for a female president

[K Gardner]

50. Hmm. Pity. Emotion. Sympathy. Payback. That's how we pick a President now?

Very scary indeed. At least that's what I'm seeing glancing through this post.

[Barack_America]

52. When we have more people vote for American Idol than for President...

...apparently so.

And yes, it is frightening.

[spooky3]

58. As a fellow Edwards supporter, I don't think that's the point being made.

These emotions have always been part of our democratic system, for good or ill. But there is a very rational element to some people's decisions. Certainly most professional and working women have experienced some of the kinds of discrimination that have been manifested recently in this primary process, and many have been patient trainers of sexists most of their work lives, trusting that progress is being made and repeatedly learning the hard way that we're not "there" yet.

Men can certainly be feminists and they can certainly experience discrimination, though the evidence is strong that they experience much less of it than do women. Many women though have found that even men who believe themselves to be progressive and who are progressive in other ways don't fully "get" sexism or see it as as high a priority as women who have experienced it, and often even deny women's reality, "oh, that's not sexist--that happens to me all the time, etc."

The sexist treatment of Clinton in the media (shrill, cackle, cold, crybaby, etc.--not policy criticism) has made some people who care about fairness reason that it is time to stop looking the other way and being understanding because this allows discrimination to be perpetuated. If you have three candidates who they see as qualified for the job and otherwise similar on policies (as compared to the Republicans from whom the three are far more different), some of them reason that sending a woman to the Presidency might do more than anything to reduce this continuing sexism. Further, several people have interpreted some of Edwards and Obama's failure to speak up about this, or Edwards' "this is a tough campaign" comments and seeming to gang up during the last debate, and Obama's "you're likeable enough" comment as insensitive at best and, at worst, engaging in subtle sexism rather than rough-and-tumble campaigning--maybe they don't "get it" as much as they say they do. Women (and some men) may look at this and reason that a woman is not going to be as blind to sexism in office and will make it a priority, as well as send a signal by merely holding the office that women are no longer second class citizens. Further, a very basic principle in our affirmative action systems today is that when you have substantially similarly qualified candidates and a gross underrepresentation of people in protected classes holding the jobs, it is appropriate and in many cases desirable to select the female or minority candidate. It becomes inappropriate when there are substantial differences in qualifications among candidates and when the underrepresentation ends. While you may not judge Clinton as equally qualified to Obama and Edwards, if this were a typical job hiring situation, I have no doubt that this situation WOULD meet the standard of substantially similar -- and she might even be judged more highly qualified that Obama and Edwards in key ways. So if a voter votes for her for these reasons, it is anything but "emotional" but rather, an action supported in our legal system as a means of overcoming remaining discrimination in employment against women and minorities.

If you think of the same situation but with African Americans rather than women I think it becomes crystal clear. If Obama had been treated in as racist a way as Clinton has been treated, would you call it "emotional" that some African Americans (and others) might decide that since racism clearly hasn't ended, it would be better to put Obama in office as one more important step toward ending the racism? If they don't see white candidates calling out the racism, and instead possibly contributing to it, isn't it easy to understand why they might trust those other candidates less to bring about change in racism, which is a perfectly appropriate voter goal?

[Anouka]

53. I don't think it's women. I think it's generational.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/epolls/index.html#NHDEM

Obama owns the 18 to 39 age group, but Hillary owns 40 and over.

Making a supposition from bad data, if women *and* men 40 and over were the ones who didn't like the way Hillary was being treated, what does that mean?

[spooky3]

57. You're right that age is important but take another look at the #s

and you'll see why gender was probably the most important difference.

Women of all ages pooled together (the very first two lines of results) went strongly for Clinton; men went for Obama and to a lesser extent Clinton and Edwards. But the most important point is that the numbers show that 57% of the voters were female vs. 43% male, much different from the population %s. A slight edge among a big group of voters makes more of a difference than the same % edge in a smaller group. If women were 99% of the voting pool, for example, she would have won in a landslide.

Obama does not "own the 18-39 age group". He has a huge lead for the 18-24s, but Clinton is slightly favored by the 25-29s. Obama has a modest edge with the 30-39s. But taken together these groups were only 1/3 of the voting pool, only a little more than half the size of the female group.

Why do you call the data "bad" but rely on them for your first statement?

CNN did not report a breakdown by age and gender, so there is no way to know whether your second sentence is true. The reasons why older voters of both sexes preferred Clinton to Obama in NH may be different from the reasons that women supported her.

There are also income differences and other differences that could have played a role.