Hillary's slight win demonstrates feminist split in our party. Men listen up

[cindyw]

Classic Feminists vs. Post-Movement Feminists
Okay as a woman you are saying, but what about women who are not feminists? Listen Laura Bush and all her friends are Republicans, so they don't count here. We are talking Dems

Classic Feminist - these are your classic 60's era, burn your bra, pissed off about the ERA, break the glass ceiling, and superwomen (does it all from kids to job) feminists

These women were pissed about the media attacking Clinton and they responded to her crying and definitely were pissed that she was attacked for it. These women support HIllary because she is a woman and they have no problem with her acting tough or crying.

Post-Movement Feminists - these are your 20-40 something's, believe in choice for women (maybe job, maybe stay at home), believe in shared housework, embrace femininity in power and also like their jeans (again choice), respect the feminists who came before them (after all they were raised by them), but somehow they just don't relate on a radical level

These women were pissed about the media saying that "there is no crying in politics', but they also could see that Hillary was crying for herself not for her country. These women support Obama and Edwards. Sure they want to see a women president, but they also embrace King's argument on judging someone on the content of their character. Someday these women hope to support a woman candidate they feel strongly about.


So in my opinion why did women break for Hillary in NH? Two reasons:

1. It was a balmy day and women over 70 came out to vote for the 1st woman president.
2. Some younger women (who have not faced family issues of choice, job vs kids) sided with the classic feminists on the crying issue.

This is just my opinion, so flame away Classic feminists I have nothing but respect for you from my Post-Movement castle.

[LostinVA]

1. The exit polls re: women voters prove you wrong

And, I think you can't "pigeonhole" women like this. You're totally wrong about the two "types."

[cindyw]

3. Prove it, I don't see that I'm wrong in the exit polls

As far as pigeon holing women, no not all women fit this mold, but with a 2-3% win it can affect a race.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Wow I wonder if I am a classic due to the place where I grew

I was among the first 200 women nationwide allowed on board a rescue vehicle, and boy we were not even allowed to work the overnight shift.

It took us not to F it up for the rest who do not understand that, to be able to work any shift, and to enter specialties in rescue we opened the damn door for them.

I've talked to some of them young kids, and they really don't get it... if any of us had well, you know... they would not be allowed in. They just don't get it

And in spite of all of this I will NOT vote for her. I don't like her Senate voting record

Then again, I am not making a decision with my heart, but a decision with my head.

So where does this leave me in this nice view of the world?

[cindyw]

6. Again as a post-movement myself I believe in a womens' preogative to choose

I definitely think that women who comes to her feminism through situations as yours can fit the mold of the classic feminist, but I also think the post feminist movement allows women to be faced with these situations and choose to embrace the idea of choices in life. The post movement feminist is not unable to break molds, she just doesn't see it as her duty as a women. Just that she is equal and can do anything she chooses and is good at. It is this understanding in my opinion that allows a womens failure in a classic mans field to be her personal misfit and not women's as a whole.

I think that it is very interesting the generational view you have seen though.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. Wow... it was my duty?

double wow...

I did what I did because I wanted to be a paramedic... it had precious little with duty.

That said, I helped to bust doors... but duty?

No, not really.

Then again, it may have all to do with where I grew up. (for the record, not the US)

Now it was my duty to know my protocols inside out, to know how to tie an anchor point and deploy a rope, to know how to safely rapel down a line, and to take my patient from point a to point b safely.

But it wasn't my duty to open any damn doors... we just did our job.. and did it extremely well.

[cindyw]

10. Wow, I actually said the opposite of what you think I said.

NO it was not your duty. In my opinion if you help to bust a door open it was because you did the job well.

It seems like you have your hackles up against me, when actually you just defined yourself quite nicely in a post movement way.

And yes, there was a feeling at one time that women had to do it all.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. What floored me is your pigeon holing of people

Not everybody in the world burned their bras, hell I was too late for that and in the wrong country... and ERA, was not even part of my experience until I heard the term in a college class and went ... WHAT THE HELL IS THAT?

Hell I am in your forty something year old generation, probably near your age.

You may be onto something, but somehow, I doubt it. From having talked to people voting for her, or not voting for her, rarely does the 1960s ERA, lets burn bras comes up.

Will she make a better president than any of the Republcians? Absolutely... but a door would be a better president, no insult to doors

But if people voted for her out of an EMOTIONAL reaction (sisterhood as you argue) then it is the same reason they voted for Bush...

We don't elect leaders, but representatives... and to select a representative you need to use your head.

And that is MY POINT

By the way, I could not be a member of the feminist movement, since there was strictly no feminist movement in Mexico. It was never part of my political DNA

[cindyw]

26. Maybe your right, maybe I am talking about something exclusive to US women

As far as my categorizing (or pigeon holing as you call it), these are more feelings. NOt ever woman is going to fit into each category exactly. No person ever does. This is more of a theory. Like those you are either an Elvis or a Beetle person. Not everyone fits each right, but it is a way to understand how people develop personally in a social environment.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. The only way to prove this theory is to follow it up

with very strict statistical analysis... the kind poli sci graduate students pull off on a regular basis for their professors.

Otherwise, it will remain in the feeling category.

[cindyw]

31. There have been many writing on this topic

It has to do with comparisons of what is known as 2nd wave feminists (60s women's lib, 2nd to suffragists) vs Third Wave Feminists

Of course all of this is US history, I'm sure that in other countries the course of female empowerment has been different.

[ieoeja]

12. My mom saw it as a duty.

She was teased into testing for the job (rural mail carrier). When she out-tested everyone else (even after the 5 and 10 point veterans bonus many men got), she was not going to take the job because she had no interest or need in a job outside the home.

But when the men kept talking shit, "you can pass a written test, but no way a woman could do that job day in and day out", she realized that if she did not take the job, and if she did not stick with the job, then they would be that much less likely to offer a woman that job in the future.

So she took a job she did not want just so future women could have that same job if they did want it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. Two different countries I guess

I grew up in Mexico City. I became a Medic because I saw it as an opportunity to serve... but not as duty to other women

It didn't hit me that I opened doors, until I became a Paramedic Instructor and half of one of my classes were women. One day I asked why they were doing it... and their answer floored me... they were doing it because now they were allowed to do anything. This particular class was strange, they were all college bound and several of them ended up in medical school within three years. They took some time off between high school and college... (in mexico you go straight to med school, no premed)

[demo dutch]

4. It also had to do with the bashing during the debates. Women are sick and tired

of men bashing them. Women are generally not respected in the workplace, and women deal with that every day. You know, if a woman is strong, she's labeled a "bitch" 9 times of of 10. I think most of the time women will stick together in the end.

[cindyw]

8. But despite the bashing, is Hillary right for job? That is the question that

will have to be asked as we go forward. If NH was a reaction to the bashing, will it hold out through November. And if it does, can HIllary live up to our expectations.

See I think that if we elect a women from the point of view that women have to stick together and show that a women can do the job, then we also fall with her as a group if she fails. I would rather that her sex was not an issue in the election. Defending attacks is one thing, but giving her a free ride to the white house because she is a women is a whole other thing.

[Madam Mossfern]

11. I agree wholeheartedly and

BTW - being a bitch is not a good thing? :shrug:

[demo dutch]

34. Here's my fear.. I think that experience will become a bigger issue down the line and

if it's Obama vs McCain in the GE, one terror alert, and the Indies will drop Obama like a hot potatoe. Whether the terror is fake or not, the probability that this will occur is pretty likely since the GWB/GOP Administration will do anything to win, as we know. I think that the GWB administration is especially motivated to repair the massive damage they've inflicted. We might be underestimating them once again and it's a long stretch between March and the GE. I also think that everyone is underestimating McCain. According to KO, the GOP leadership is already discussing who would be most likely candicate to beat the Dems and McCain has come up on several oocasions. It will be McCain or losing the WH. So, despite opposition within the GOP party they will push through McCain and in the end the entire GOP will support him, despite his views on immigration, because he is anti-abortion and that is the key to (grudgingly) win over the religious right. BTW, on issues, I personally prefer Edwards.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

5. the feminists I know are not fans of Hillary

their all with Edwards or Obama,

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. Count me in

But as I said above, I don't like her voting record, period.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

15. simply having girl parts doesn't mean you best represent womens needs

the interests of feminists are usually best in sync with those promoting social justice, public health and other causes. I can't think of many women who would have felt an obligation to vote for Lady Thatcher or Kay Bailey Hutchenson just because they were women. Nor would I think many feminists would have seen mysogniny in their criticism.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. Though she made a very interesting statement at an international conference

and trust me I can see the stir

Women rights are human rights and human rights are women's rights.

Imagine the representative from the Kingdom of Saud on that one?

It brings a smile to my face.

[krabigirl]

14. I'm a younger (30ish) feminist, and yes, a SAHM. Support Edwards. ro

But I won't support Hillary or Obama, until the general election when I absolutely have to. I don't find fault with Hillary's character. I'll just vote for Kucinich if Edwards drops out. (If he's still in it.)

[Bitwit1234]

17. Wonder what would happen if all the "white folks" who didn't vote for

Obama were told they were racist. Wonder what would happen if all the white folks inthe south the midwest the west and the rest of the country were told not to vote for Obama because he was black.

Obama's lean to banning abortions might have had something to do with it, but feminist are not the only group of Americans who find him offensive with his CHANGING from this, and CHANGING to that.

There were a lot of seniors who voted for Hillary also. They dont want Obama to get hold of their social security and their other benefits, which he is talking about doing. If he finds out they voted against him because of that he'll CHANGE his mind about that also.

Golly double gee whiz he sure likes CHANGE doesn't he. But for all the wrong reasons.

[Texas_Kat]

18. Interesting question raised this morning

If a woman had the same resume as Obama..... (community organizer, part-time law professor, state senator and 2 year Senate career) would she be considered 'qualified' for President?

If your answer isn't "YES!" you should re-examine your prejudices.... You have some.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Absolutely yes

And you are correct

In some ways Obama has some similarities to JFK and why he is having a similar effect among the younth

The way he is running the campaign is fascinating too...

Take the Morning in America from Ronnie, add a spoonful of JFK's 1960 and a dash of Bobby's in 1968 and put the damn thing on frappe.

[Texas_Kat]

22. Actually Obama is nothing like JFK

JFK was a war hero, JFK was a dynastic politician, JFK was a Washington insider with years of Capitol Hill experience.

How is Obama like JFK?

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. The way he is running the campaign

Listen to some of his events on C-SPAN and then look for some stump speeches from the following and compare and contrast on themes and speech patterns

Ronald Reagan, Morning in America
JFK
Bobbyt Kennedy

Resumes, no, he could not be... what is he, three generations removed?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

27. he represents the political mainstreaming of a new group,

JFK was not the first Irish catholic to seek office, he was the first Irish catholic who was able to draw on a wide base of support from outside the Irish community.

Like JFK was not perceived to be a Tammany Hall Irish hooligan, Obama is not perceived to be a represenative of the urban welfare culture that is highly influencial on many black political leaders.

If Al Sharpton were running for president, he wouldn't have the reception in Iowa that Obama did.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. Exactly and the themes used are classic for

candidates who break molds

[killbotfactory]

19. NH Women saw a strong capable women running for president

And were rightfully excited about the idea and it's historic potential.

That may be all it comes down to.

[Anouka]

24. Thank you for this post.

Kicked and recommended, bookmarked.

[suston96]

25. Way too funny - slight win for Hillary in NH but blowout for Obama in Iowa...

Yeah, you got it right. "Slight win"........

[ceile]

30. Disagree a bit.

I guess I fall into your Post-Movement, but I'm still pissed as hell! I have surpassed my Classic Feminist mother in rage and it's because the rights that she fought for me to have (choice, equal pay, equal opportunity) are about to go by the wayside if another repub is elected.
And I won't vote for Clinton simply because she is a woman. I'm not crazy about her record, but if she gets the nomination, I'll vote for her. Only if she gets the nomination....

[cindyw]

32. I think that our generation is having this reaction in many areas of society

We were all raised with many basic rights that Bush has taken away. I think older generations who fought for those rights were rightly pissed because they fought for them. Our generation seemed slow to react the pulling back of rights because truly they have not lived without them and have a hard time making an argument for them. I mean explain why we deserve rights and equality. It's probably harder than you think. But I think the younger generations are starting to find some footing. It is our fight, we will get with it.

[ceile]

33. And sooner rather than later hopefully.

Some just don't realize how eroded our rights have become, and I have this feeling of dread that they will wake up too late.

[Beacool]

35. I've been a Hillary supporter way before she even announced her candidacy.

It thrills me that she is the first woman with a good chance to become president, but I wouldn't vote for her if she were a Republican.

I find your post a tad condescending, I'm voting for Hillary because I think that she's the more prepared candidate to lead at this point in time, not just because she happens to be a woman. I think that Obama, despite his great rhetorical skills, is extremely inexperienced and I honestly think that he's not suited to be president right now. I would have no qualms in voting for him down the line, but not this year. I believe that people should pay their dues and work hard at their job before they deserve a promotion and being president of the USA is too great a promotion for a very junior senator.

Having said that, women will rally around another woman who they perceive as having been treated unfairly by a biased media. I will not stand by and remain quiet when I see any woman, regardless of political affiliation, be put down by some idiots in the press mainly due to her gender. I am a woman first and a Democrat second!!