Hillary is making a HUGE mistake if she's trying to racialize these primaries

[George_Bonanza]

Sure, she may win against Obama, but unless her political dream is to be the Democratic nominee who lost to John McCain, she should not alienate her once-loyal Black electorate. If Blacks see that even someone who tried his hardest to be a universal candidate like Obama will inevitably go down because of his skin colour, they will lose faith in the Democrats. They will turn out in record low numbers to cast a few votes for Hillary, with their noses turned up of course. Who knows? Maybe they'll be swayed by McCain.

Bottom line, Obama may not be able to win the nomination without White support, but Hillary sure as hell can't win the general election without Black support. It's in the best interest of both camps to put this race issue down for the good of the party.

[alcibiades_mystery]

1. She assumes they have nowhere else to go

It's more important at this point to chase out the young voters, new voters, and independents - and you do that by bringing the ugly politics.

[annie1]

3. i don't know abouit that, but she shouldn't think that way, her campaign...

was doing just fine after NH. it seems like everytime she gets her bearings, something dumb surfaces from her own camp. it's like they can't sit still long enough before starting something new or something stars anew, when they don't have to. she's an awesome lady, she should have more faith in that people like her candidacy for her and what she has to offer, and not anything having to do with all this extraneous noise.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

11. Bill and Penn are possibly the worst combo around.

both have huge egos, both think the gutter is great.

Mr. Clinton is tarnishing his reputation for a long time to come.

[annie1]

13. honestly, i think she should sideline them both right now...

again, i think she has so much to offer, it seems like she almost doesn't realize that. i know she's sidelined penn, but bill also needs to be put in a corner. If she does that, and she stops all the rukus, she'll do fine.

[jefferson_dem]

2. If she is trying to racialize these primaries...

she doesn't deserve to win in the General anyway.

[cloudythescribbler]

29. ... then there should be enough Democrats, including white Democrats to smell the BS and stop ...

her nomination.

That's how democracy is SUPPOSED to work. I can't say I'm confident that it WILL work out that way, but look at how little traction the GOP got out of fanning the flames of the immigration issue in 2006.

HRC is playing a VERY dangerous game....

[Uben]

4. To be honest

I see the candidates supporters using race, not the candidates themselves. I don't think for one minute that Clinton is racially biased, nor do I think Obama is. Some supporters will say anything if they think it will help their candidate, unaware of the damage they are really doing.

[Justyce]

7. That's what I'm wondering -- are the candidates themselves

using race/gender, or is it really just their supporters?

[Uben]

9. Just read a few threads here

I think that says it all!

[rodeodance]

12. Be very careful trying to get at the truth by reading threads here on DU. Sorry

I have to say that --but beware.

[LostinVA]

26. It's only supporters : I don't think Obama is using sexism or is sexist

And I don't think HRC is using racism -- or is racist.

[cloudythescribbler]

32. this is implicitly equating a minnow with a whale ...

[LostinVA]

49. What the heck does that even mean?

[cloudythescribbler]

30. In HRC's case, it goes to the top, including the candidate, and, frankly ...

The notion that Obama supporters are (for the most part) trying to do any more but to reveal this pattern, with the hope that enough NONblack Democrats will wisely spurn the purveyors of these tactics and stop the campaign that is the driving force behind them is an unfair canard.

I've been following the board pretty closely since this stuff became front and center in the campaign (about merely a WEEK ago) and the pattern (to my eyes, which of course, like anyone's cannot rise above all bias) and it is OVERWHELMINGLY one-sided. Part of what needs to be made clear is that not only is the HRC camp engaged in a PATTERNED strategy of race-baiting, but that here on DU there are a swarm of Obama-bashers spreading the false impression that the Obama supporters are, on the whole, 'just as bad'. If you are going to try to clear away the BS in politics, including in Democratic politics, it should be possible to develop a rough consensus on DU in support of these reasonably obvious fact truths.

It was particularly discouraging to see the moderators dismissing out of hand ALL the questioning of the exit poll/election results divergence in NH, until Dennis Kucinich, in his justification for calling for a recount, lent credibility to arguments that the DU management had dismissed as beyond the pale.

You might also notice a (much smaller but noticeable, and shockingly widely supported) Kucinich-bashing demi-urge that has surfaced at DU since his decision to call for a recount.

[rodeodance]

10. yes, I do not believe Either candidate is trying to racialize this contest!

[vi5]

5. I'm white and she's already lost my vote because of it...

It's ugly, and it's pathetic, and no matter how much spinning her surrogates and supporters do it's undeniable and obvious.

God, I can't believe I find myself defending Mr. Let's-reach-across-theaisle-joe-leiberman-loving-social-security-is-in-crisis-right-wing-talkingpoints over the Clinton's. But I just can't watch this ugliness any more. And yes, I've seen primary races before, I know how bad they get. But this is just getting really fucking painful to watch.

[cloudythescribbler]

33. exactly on the money -- hopefully many more whites will see this also nt

[Adelante]

6. She's sacrificing the black vote

To take away Obama's white vote. It's not in her interest to put the race issue down. That would be Obama's interest. (Obama supporters on DU, take note.) The good of the party? Nobody's thinking about that in a primary, obviously. They're in it to win it.

[George_Bonanza]

8. But then she loses the GE

Clinton can't expect to have the Blacks back in her flock if she uses them to rile up her White electorate.

[Adelante]

15. She'll worry about that if the time comes nt

[alcibiades_mystery]

20. Exactly

If she can beat Obama by mid-February, she'll tack hard to the A-A issues to recover those votes.

Pure Clintonism.

[MonkeyFunk]

14. No she's not

Despite the fact that these things get totally overblown and taken out of context here in the blogosphere - and repeated in the 24 hour networks - nothing terribly out of line has gone on.

Seriously, we should stop hyperventilating over every utterance by somebody associated in any way with a campaign - and this is true for ALL sides.

This isn't a particularly ugly or nasty campaign by any measure.

[Adelante]

17. We will disagree on this, Monkey

This is the strategy as I see it.

[cloudythescribbler]

35. yup nt

[cali]

18. it's getting there, and it's reflected, at least in part, in the

mass defection of black voters from Clinton and in white voters leaving Obama in SC- albeit in smaller numbers. We are on a very dangerous path.

[MonkeyFunk]

24. I don't see it that way

I see people deciding between two good, capable candidates. As the election draws closer, more people make up their minds. It's not all surprising to me that Obama would gain significant support in the African-American community.

I don't think the only rational explanation is that voters are rejecting one candidate or another. I think they're just choosing one.

[cali]

27. I'm afraid you're just not seeing things clearly, in that case.

And that's something I think you're ususally quite good at. In NYC, Hillary is seeing black dems break away from her bigtime over the past week. That's not just about blacks supporting a black candidate. It's about the unease those voters are feeling about the crap that's going on.

[murbley40]

39. I don't believe she is racializing this campaign.

I think racializing is a matter of perspective of those trying to use it against another.

[Essene]

53. Yes, it's that simple. Race bait then watch minorities get alienated and not vote.

This is a fairly common pattern... and the last time i've personally seen it was in NYC in 2001's mayoral race where the race baiting got so bad that after Mark Green won the primary, voter turn out was painfully low among minorities.

There were more votes cast in the 2 democratic primaries than were cast for either Mike Bloomberg or Mark Green in the general election.

SC may have the turn-out, but i'd expect to see lower and lower turn-out after Clinton successfully put Obama in the "jive talking black man candidate" boat so successfully.

[enough already]

16. It doesn't have to be record low turnout

The national margin of victory on either side is already razor thin. Any dropoff in turnout of any kind and we're fucked. She's too busy triangulating to care, however.

[PFunk]

23. My thoughts exactly

And since many blacks dont feel to greatly about any dem canadate (including Obama), Plus add in the fact that many feel the democratic party takes them for granted. I can easily seeing many blacks just sitting on their hands and just staying home. Which will all but insure a republican victory in '08. And Hillary's very close to making alot of blacks to do just that.

Back away Hillary, Back away.

[styersc]

19. The Clintons are not trying to "racialize" this race, she is being

smeared by those who feel that turning the race to a question of color will promote their candidate.

[alcibiades_mystery]

21. Her campaign is provoking the charges

In order to turn off young voters, new voters, and independents.

[Bullet1987]

22. I agree with WesDem...

the Clinton's feel they can get away with this because of their standing in the Black community. Sad part about it is...people will probably fall for it if she were to get the nomination. They'll totally forget about the race-baiting the Clinton's used to get nominated.

[alcibiades_mystery]

25. They'll pull the lever for Clinton

But that doesn't mean they'll forget.

[cloudythescribbler]

36. ... and, furthermore, Gore radiates irresistable charisma nt

[zozosmom]

42. Absolutely,

and most people will see it for what it is. Obama is making a fatal error in running his campaign into this ground. It smells of desperation and will lose him both the nomination and the GE.

[adapa]

28. if a lie is repeated often & loud, people believe it; Bush taught us that

With regards to the MLK/LBJ comment

First, with respect to Dr. King, you know, Tim, I was 14 years old when I heard Dr. King speak in person. He is one of the people that I admire most in the world, and the point that I was responding to from Senator Obama himself in a number of speeches he was making is his comparison of himself to President Kennedy and Dr. King. And there is no doubt that the inspiration offered by all three of them is essential. It is critical to who we are as a nation, what we believe in, the dreams and aspirations that we all have. But I also said that, you know, Dr. King didn't just give speeches. He marched, he organized, he protested, he was gassed, he was beaten, he was jailed. He understood that he had to move the political process and bring in those who were in political power, and he campaigned for political leaders, including Lyndon Johnson, because he wanted somebody in the White House who would act on what he had devoted his life to achieving.

With regards to Bill's comment about Obama's Fairy tail on the Iraq war

And let me address the point that Bill was making. Because, again, I think it's been unfairly and inaccurately characterized. What he was talking about was very directly about the story of Senator Obama's campaign, being premised on a speech he gave in 2002. And that was to his credit. He gave a speech opposing the war in Iraq. He gave a very impassioned speech against it and consistently said that he was against the war, he would vote against the funding for the war. By 2003, that speech was off his Web site. By 2004, he was saying that he didn't really disagree with the way George Bush was conducting the war. And by 2005, '6 and '7, he was voting for $300 billion in funding for the war. The story of his campaign is really the story of that speech and his opposition to Iraq. I think it is fair to ask questions about, "Well, what did you do after the speech was over?" And when he became a senator, he didn't go to the floor of the Senate to condemn the war in Iraq for 18 months. He didn't introduce legislation against the war in Iraq. He voted against timelines and deadlines initially.

This entire swiftboating is proof that if a lie is repeated often & loud, people believe it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22634967/page/2/

[cloudythescribbler]

37. Fairy tale remark aside, what about BC's snarky and provocative reference to Nelson Mandela? nt

[adapa]

47. This is Snarky & Provacative?!?! you've got to be kidding

Actual quote Bill 1.7.08

"But if you said to me today, 'I'm gonna give you one last job for your country -- go and do this -- but it's hazardous and you may not get out with life and limb intact and you have to do it alone except I'll let you take one other person,' and I had to pick one person whom I knew who would never blink, who would never turn back, who would make great decisions under pressure and would never forget what the purpose of being there was, I would pick Hillary of the people I've known and I would never even think about it. It would be an easy choice."

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/01/bill-hillarys-t.html

Again with the mis-characterizations & parcing

[cloudythescribbler]

48. Yes, snarky and provocative. Favorably comparing HRC to Nelson Mandela PREDICTABLY would ...

provoke a hostile reaction in many quarters, and savvy BC couldn't but know that. That's the whole idea of provokatsiia , (a Russian word that describes this specific sort of passive-aggressive strategem), is to say something YOU KNOW will provoke a response while maintaining plausible deniability.


You might want to take a look at this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&forum=132&topic_id=4062025&mesg_id=4062025


and this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4061369&mesg_id=4061789

[adapa]

51. if you think this is race baiting now wait for the general

if your candidate can't take the fire without playing the race card over these seemingly minor issues, god help us in the general if he get the nomination.

You want snarky, try, the alway provocative & demeaning 'oh you're nice enough'
Talk about a nasty statement to say to a woman, that is a typical male sexiest BS.

[zozosmom]

44. Excellent point...

but it's going to backfire. Does anyone really believ that white voters are going buy this crap? Obama is signing the death warrant for his campaign going down this path. It won't work in the long run. White people are not going to be intimiadated into voting for him. And if he keeps playing that Bitch song, he really needs to be blasted by women.

[Catherine Vincent]

54. "If a lie is repeated often & loud, people believe it."

Too late. The O supporters already ran with it.

[MethuenProgressive]

31. Obama's attempt to SwiftBoat Clinton on race continues.

Rove is sooooo proud of Obama right now.

[Bullet1987]

34. Who's surrogates made the racially-toned comments first?

Clinton's or Obama's...please go buy yourself a clue.

[MethuenProgressive]

38. What came first? His lying attacks or her response? Get a freaking clue.

What, he's got a time machine is this fairy tale too? :rofl:

[zozosmom]

41. Bet Obama's playing B**** J-Z rap will be completely ignored

If anything even remotely analagous happened with reference to race on the Clinton side, you people would be up in arms. Such hypocrites. It's disgusting that Obama would even let this song be played at a rally. He clearly has no respect for women.

January 14, 2008 -- PRESIDENTIAL hopeful Barack Obama claims to run a clean campaign, but someone in his camp took a swipe at Hillary Clinton through the candidate's theme song.

As Obama and his wife, Michelle, strolled triumphantly into his victory party in Des Moines, Iowa, on Jan. 3, Jay-Z's "99 Problems" was blaring. In it, Jay raps, "I got 99 problems, but a bitch ain't one."

Some listeners took it as a not-so-sly reference to Hillary.

"We didn't know he used that," a shocked Clinton spokesperson said.

Obama has no problem admitting he's a rap fan.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/01142008/gossip/pagesix/hillary__barack_rap__rock_142152.htm

[Rosa Luxemburg]

40. I don't think he is swiftboating her

on dangerous ground to talk about MLK?

[zozosmom]

43. Obama was the person who brought it up

he was the one who presented himself as the heir of MLK. It's fair game to say that such a self-comparison is arrogant. Hillary is absolutely correct-- and it's too bad that Obama's only reply is yell "RACISM." Just because he is black and makes pretty speeches, doesn't make him MLK.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

45. what?

he is allowed to use MLK as an example. He never presented himself as the heir of MLK.

[Thrill]

46. THats what they're doing

It will backfire

[robbedvoter]

50. "racializing" is a campaign talking point from another candidate (not this word

mercifully, but you are following the script)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/01/12/obama-camps-memo-on-clin_n_81205.html

[Essene]

52. It's too late. The damage is done. Expect lower minority turn-out to start...

[zulchzulu]

55. Bill did it in 1992 with the Sister Souljah jab...so it's just rehashed Carville horseshit

If you look back at Bill Clinton's race in 1992, he came in second to Tsongas in New Hampshire and pulled out the race card by dissing Sister Souljah and getting the white vote in South Carolina. He knew that the black vote would eventually come back to the Democratic Party, but knew he could pull his act and get votes.

Hillary's statement preferring a Southern white guy like Johnson (who hated MLK) over MLK with being a credit to getting civil rights passed gently and stealthly appealed to Southern white voters. This calculated chess move will help her (she thinks) with the South Carolina vote as well as the Southern states voting on February 5th.

Triangulating the race card with her surrogates, she hopes to divide people racially for votes. She only cares about power and, like her war votes, considers those in her way to being tough replaceable.

The Clinton Machine knows exactly what they are doing.

[IndianaGreen]

56. The Clintons are incapable of admitting publicly they made a mistake, about anything

They will continue on their merry way because they would rather wreck the whole party than to let someone other than themselves win the nomination. Two-for-one.

[suston96]

57. Hillary hasn't racialized anything...it is obvious who has done the racialization.....

....of factualizations by the Clintons.