A bill to protect civilian lives from unexploded cluster munitions -- Hillary: nay!

[ProSense]

Hillary voted against a bill to protect civilians from cluster bombs:

U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 109th Congress - 2nd Session

as compiled through Senate LIS by the Senate Bill Clerk under the direction of the Secretary of the Senate


Vote Summary

Question: On the Amendment (Feinstein Amdt. No. 4882 )
Vote Number: 232 Vote Date: September 6, 2006, 12:00 PM
Required For Majority: 1/2 Vote Result: Amendment Rejected
Amendment Number: S.Amdt. 4882 to H.R. 5631
Statement of Purpose: To protect civilian lives from unexploded cluster munitions.
Vote Counts: YEAs 30
NAYs 70

SA 4882. Mrs. FEINSTEIN (for herself and Mr. LEAHY) submitted an amendment intended to be proposed by her to the bill H.R. 5631, making appropriations for the Department of Defense for the fiscal year ending September 30, 2007, and for other purposes; as follows:


At the end of title VIII, add the following:

Sec. 8109. No funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act my be obligated or expended to acquire, utilize, sell, or transfer any cluster munition unless the rules of engagement applicable to the cluster munition ensure that the cluster munition will not be used in or near any concentrated population of civilians, whether permanent or temporary, including inhabited parts of cities or villages, camps or columns of refugees or evacuees, or camps or groups of nomads.

From a CNN report:

What are the ground rules for the U.S. use of cluster bombs? Why does the United States use cluster bombs?

MCINTYRE: Well, they say they are an effective weapon for an area of attack, and to deny an area to the enemy. And they say that they are used against legitimate military targets.

The question here is, do you use them in an area where there are going to be a lot of civilians? And that's what they are looking at, how they were used.

And, of course, human rights advocates claim that even if you only use them against military targets, they're still an indiscriminate weapon because they can explode days or even months later when innocent people come by and pick them up. They equate them to landmines.

more

From Think Progress: Senate ok’s cluster bombs.

[jody]

1. Cluster munitions are effective in conventional engagements and give U.S. troops an edge against

massed formations. They have saved many U.S. lives!

Perhaps congress should exercise its authority and keep our troops out of undeclared wars rather than trying to tie their hands after a rogue president commits my brothers/sisters to fight in undeclared wars.

I hate war and the death and destruction they produce but if our troops are ordered to fight, then I want them to win with minimum losses.

[AX10]

3. Sadly, that is all true.

Smartly, we should keep out of confrontations unless absolutely needed.

[ShortnFiery]

4. WTF over?!?

I'm honestly SPEECHLESS ... so I'll cite Robert Fisk, et. al., instead:

http://www.robert-fisk.com/american_terrorism.htm

Cluster bombs are one of the most savage and inhumane weapons in the arsenal of the United States Corporate Mafia Government and military. These instruments of bloody terror are used for the gruesome slaughter of both military and civilian people around the world.

Each cluster bomb is composed of 200 to 700 bomblets. When each bomblet explodes it fragments into about 300 pieces of jagged steel — sending out virtual blizzards of deadly shrapnel.

People are decapitated, arms, legs, hands and feet are severed from their bodies — anyone and anything alive in the immediate vicinity is shredded into a bloody mess.


http://www.counterpunch.org/kuzminski08182004.html

It has always been madness to try to remold the world in one's image, as we see most recently in the war in Iraq, but it is a vastly greater madness in a nuclear age. The lesson of 9/11 was that resentments born of decades if not centuries of perceived wrongs will find their target if those wrongs are not addressed. The ultimate equalizer, in our time, is the nuclear bomb and this the terrorists will sooner or later obtain and use if they continue to be provoked. This will be the final, bitter fruit of the loss of our political freedom, and it will be made the ultimate justification for the tyranny now established upon us. :nuke:

[jody]

8. You cite Fisk and I'll rely on hundreds of first hand accounts by troops on the front line and

personal experience.

If a soldier is ordered into combat, she/he wants to survive.

If you've been in combat, you know that prayer.

If you haven't been in combat, you have a lot to learn.

[ShortnFiery]

17. Back the truck up! No, I personally haven't seen combat but I've served in the Army ...

My father was battlefield commissioned in Italy during WWII and my brother served in combat during the Vietnam war. You know the military community? I'd bet big bucks being married 25 plus years to a Retired Marine and having been within the "military community" from birth to this day, that you do NOT KNOW them as much as you claim?

Don't wrap yourself up in the flag of the troops. I've met and have know many who are hopelessly scarred physically, and some mentally via WARFARE.

As proud as I am to claim that I honorable served my country, both myself and my family members who have served in combat PRAY FOR PEACE.

There is nothing honorable about KILLING "the amorphous enemy" when our civilian leaders do NOT, in turn, accomplish the diplomatic and political groundwork to achieve peace.

It's time to shed the Col. Kilgore HYPE and mantras ... and embrace the gut wrenching *horror* (all sides) that is this SENSELESS WAR.

Every innocent child who is blown to "kibbles and bits" by our smart bombs ... who has no future because we are not doing the groundwork to build ties within Iraq, will BREED a dozen young men (and women) who will despise the USA.

I love my country but this occupation is morally bankrupt. I thank God that I'm no longer Active Duty. We are abusing our brave men and women in uniform ... we are destroying our military.

[jody]

19. If you have the experience with the military you claim and don't recognize the need for munitions

discussed in this OP, then you are insensitive to those who fight and die for their country.

You've stated your opinion based on conjecture and I've stated my opinion based on personal experience.

We have nothing left to gain from more exchanges.

Have a nice day. :hi:

[ShortnFiery]

23. I love my country, but blowing a bunch of kids, women, other innocents ...

and livestock to "kibbles and bits" via unexploded munitions laying around is FUCKING INSANE.

Did you not read that WE (me, Army Veteran and husband, Retired Marine) have FRIENDS who have returned from Iraq/Afghanistan?!?

What you don't get in your shameless "Kill em all" mindset is that, the military people whom you quote as gospel DO NOT all represent those enlisted and officer serving now.

Many of us would die for our country, but these Occupations are morally bankrupt if the political changes can NOT be, concurrently implemented.

Even those of us who LOVE our Nation and are proud to have served on AD, know that "Armageddon is NOT an Exit Strategy."

The thought that someone who HAS NOT SERVED can so cavalierly accuse me, a veteran, of being insensitive of those who fight and die for OUR COUNTRY is below contempt. No, I think you have NO shame. :(

[jody]

30. I served in combat, did you? n/t

[ShortnFiery]

38. Oh, really? I'll take your word for it. Sorry, I value my belated father's and older brother's

evaluations on "the joys of cluster bombs." DAMN! They do NOT save soldier's lives. If anything they present continuing DANGER since they do not all explode after the initial barrage. :crazy:

DAMN! Don't we have enough pretty weapons to "blow their socks off ++" without having to resort to munitions that have a "high probability" for collateral damage?

You and I are talking past one another. My late father and older brother have seen the bodies whom have been blown to kibbles and bits ... they've come out of these horrific experiences to be men of character such as, JOHN KERRY, not the PNAC war glorifier, Bob Kerrey.

And I Thank-God for their thoughtful guidance and insight. :-)

[jody]

41. Did you serve in combat? n/t

[ShortnFiery]

49. Excuse me, but I have immediate family members who have served in combat.

whose opinions differ from yours.

You have my respect for serving in combat but that does not mean that *your opinion* TRUMPS another veteran. :shrug:

[jody]

56. Sorry, you presented yourself as a combat veteran. Were you a clerk who served in CONUS? n/t

[ShortnFiery]

59. That's not only "a lie" but also a personal attack. For shame. I said I was "a veteran"

who had family members who have served in combat.

No, I was granted a Regular Army Commission and served on active duty as a Lieutenant, Military Intelligence Officer, for four years. I resigned my commission and then, attended graduate school earning a masters degree when my Marine Corps husband and I could not get a "joint domicile" assignment. You wouldn't know this, but back in the 1980s, the Army and USMC slot assignment officers did not work "all that" close together. ;)

I would have thanked you for a contentious but basically CIVIL discussion, but you shot that all to hell when you misrepresented my input. Congrats, now everything you have typed, I will hold suspect.

Good-bye "leg." :P

[jody]

60. A Lieutenant, Military Intelligence Officer for four years. Wow!!! n/t

[ShortnFiery]

63. You forgot AIRBORNE, leg?

:rofl: :P

[jody]

67. Who said anything about AIRBORNE? You mean you actually made five jumps? Double Wow. n/t

[ShortnFiery]

68. But you didn't know what the reference to "leg" meant?

Again, we're talking past each other.

Have a good evening.

[jody]

71. I know what "leg" means, do you? n/t

[ShortnFiery]

72. Go forth and conquer.

:eyes:

[jody]

73. Already been there, done that. n/t

[ShortnFiery]

74. Newsflash: It's becoming habit.

Sorry, but "blowing shit up" in and of itself, will not bring our Nation peace. It must be a concerted effort on all fronts. Using Cluster Bombs and thereby causing *senseless civilian casualties* after the initial bombing is NOT in the best interest of anyone but the manufacturers.

[jody]

78. "cluster munitions" covers an assortment of munition types and improperly limits combat commanders

if they are banned.

[ShortnFiery]

83. Gee, you just can't stop. :-)

Wow! You and I both know that there are PLENTY of alternative muntions to cluster bombs, but yet, you persist. :shrug:

Sorry, fellow veteran, continue to battle but - no victory for you today. ;)

http://www.hrw.org/doc/?t=arms_clusterbombs

Cluster bombs are indiscriminate. They cannot distinguish between civilian and military targets. Their wide-area coverage and poor targeting mechanisms nearly guarantee that unintended victims will die or be injured, even when the weapons function as designed.

[jody]

85. We disagree. n/t

[L0oniX]

82. Some of us don't want to learn how to kill/murder the inocent...

and we don't want you to kill/murder them either.

[jody]

103. But you expect the military to defend this country but deny troops arms to win and live. Perhaps you

prefer our troops would be armed with clubs.

[karynnj]

20. This sounds like why the using nuclear weapons in Japan was a good idea

They kill long after used and children are attracted to them.

One thing I notice is that vets like Kerry, Kennedy, Akaka, Harken, and Reed all voted for it. (Hagel, Warner, Lautenberg are vets against it) I assume I missed some - but the point is a higher % of vets than non-vets voted for it.

[jody]

22. What does nukes against Japan have to do with this thread? I assume you know there are a variety of

cluster munitions not all of which pose a threat to civilians not in a combat area, yet they would be limited by the bill.

[karynnj]

88. Just pointing out that the same argument was made

that dropping the bombs saved American lives because it ended the war earlier. That assertion is to various degrees among different groups of people controversial - and it was almost word for word what the op said with regards to cluster munitions.

[jody]

95. Thanks for explaining. n/t

[ShortnFiery]

25. Excellent observation karynnj. IMO those combat vets who have emerged from these experiences

with a more humanitarian mindset, tend to wish to WORK FOR PEACE and declare "war" only as a last resort. Why should we allow munitions that often kills small children AFTER the bombing attack? Such rationale is just ... UNSOUND. :(

[madrchsod]

2. she has a good reason to vote not to ban these weapons

[babylonsister]

7. What would that be? nt

[silverweb]

5. Grouped by vote position:

Grouped By Vote Position

YEAs--30
Akaka (D-HI)
Baucus (D-MT)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Boxer (D-CA)
Byrd (D-WV)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Carper (D-DE)
Conrad (D-ND)
Dayton (D-MN)
Dorgan (D-ND)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feingold (D-WI)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Harkin (D-IA)
Jeffords (I-VT)
Johnson (D-SD)
Kennedy (D-MA)
Kerry (D-MA)
Kohl (D-WI)
Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI)
Menendez (D-NJ)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Murray (D-WA)
Obama (D-IL)
Reed (D-RI)
Reid (D-NV)
Sarbanes (D-MD)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Wyden (D-OR)

NAYs--70
Alexander (R-TN)
Allard (R-CO)
Allen (R-VA)
Bayh (D-IN)
Bennett (R-UT)
Biden (D-DE)
Bond (R-MO)
Brownback (R-KS)
Bunning (R-KY)
Burns (R-MT)
Burr (R-NC)
Chafee (R-RI)
Chambliss (R-GA)
Clinton (D-NY)
Coburn (R-OK)
Cochran (R-MS)
Coleman (R-MN)
Collins (R-ME)
Cornyn (R-TX)
Craig (R-ID)
Crapo (R-ID)
DeMint (R-SC)
DeWine (R-OH)
Dodd (D-CT)
Dole (R-NC)
Domenici (R-NM)
Ensign (R-NV)
Enzi (R-WY)
Frist (R-TN)
Graham (R-SC)
Grassley (R-IA)
Gregg (R-NH)
Hagel (R-NE)
Hatch (R-UT)
Hutchison (R-TX)
Inhofe (R-OK)
Inouye (D-HI)
Isakson (R-GA)
Kyl (R-AZ)
Landrieu (D-LA)
Lautenberg (D-NJ)
Lieberman (D-CT)
Lincoln (D-AR)
Lott (R-MS)
Lugar (R-IN)
Martinez (R-FL)
McCain (R-AZ)
McConnell (R-KY)
Murkowski (R-AK)
Nelson (D-FL)
Nelson (D-NE)
Pryor (D-AR)
Roberts (R-KS)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Salazar (D-CO)
Santorum (R-PA)
Schumer (D-NY)
Sessions (R-AL)
Shelby (R-AL)
Smith (R-OR)
Snowe (R-ME)
Specter (R-PA)
Stevens (R-AK)
Sununu (R-NH)
Talent (R-MO)
Thomas (R-WY)
Thune (R-SD)
Vitter (R-LA)
Voinovich (R-OH)
Warner (R-VA)

[ShortnFiery]

18. Another excellent reason to vote for OBAMA. He has a moral compass.

Go OBAMA!!!

On Edit: My father (Combat Engineer Officer, WWII) told me that the MOST INSANE weapons ... the ones they feared were those sent via ARTY (artillery). When an enemy artillery barrage would hit, it was horrific and one had "no control" over whether or not they'd be hit. It was pure evil.

Sure. cluster bombs won't BURN FLESH TO THE BONE like unauthorized use of White Phosphorous (Willie Pete) munitions, still ... like using 50 cal weapons on troops, it will in a very similar manner rip a human body *to shreds.* All that's left, the relatives will have to pick up with tweezers and squeegees. :puke:

Yeah, <swagger swagger> "Bomb Them Into The Stone Age" worked so well during Vietnam, let's do it all over again? :crazy:

[jody]

37. Obama doesn't know what combat is like and he wants to partially disarm our troops.

:puke:

[karynnj]

89. Kerry, Harkin, Akaka, and Reed are vets

I think Reed was a West Point graduate. They likely saw what these weapons do and rejected them. Like Obama, neither Clinton saw combat either.

[silverweb]

76. Exactly!

As of February, 46 other nations have committed to working towards an international ban on cluster bombs, but the United States rejects any ban.

The United States also has rejected or thwarted many other international initiatives, just a few of which are listed _here_.

We have had some seriously evil, demented people making policy decisions in this country.

Like you, I think Obama's the one who can best reset our nation's moral compass and lead us back onto a path of humane, progressive cooperation with the rest of the world.

[jody]

35. The stats are mislabeled. If 30 Dems voted Yea, then the other 20 voted nay, not the 15 you list. n/

[silverweb]

70. The data came directly from the Senate site.

All I did was copy, paste, and add the bolding to Democrats names.

Verify the information yourself here in the _Senate List_.

[jody]

79. I saw the list before you posted it and it was wrong then and as you posted still wrong. n/t

[silverweb]

81. Sure.

And maybe you're wrong.

[jody]

86. If I'm wrong, then the Senate has 55 Repugs since 70 nays are listed including 15 Dems. I believe

you missed the point I was making that among the 70 nays, the site and your list identifies only 15 Dems.

I am not disputing the 30 yea versus 70 nay count, only the party identification.

[silverweb]

100. Facts.

It's always a very good idea to check your facts before you start spouting off.

(1) Review the Senate vote page in the OP.

(2) Check these names out:

CT: Lieberman-D/N..(Lieberman-I)
MD: Sarbanes D/Y...(Cardin-D)
MN: Dayton-D/Y.....(Klobuchar-D)
MS: Lott-R/N.......(Wicker-R)
MO: Talent-R/N.....(McClaskill-D)
MT: Burns-R/N......(Jon Tester-D)
OH: DeWine-R/N.....(Brown-D)
PA: Santorum-R/N...(Casey-D)
RI: Chafee-R/N.....(Whitehouse-D)
TN: Frist-R/N......(Corker-R)
VT: Jeffords-I/Y...(Sanders-I)
VA: Allen-R/N......(Webb-D)
WY: Thomas-R/N.....(Barrasso-R)

(3) Decide if you want to keep insisting that the Senate's published information and the OP are wrong.

[jody]

101. In #35 I replied to your #5 and said "If 30 Dems voted Yea, then the other 20 voted nay, not the 15

you list."

As karynnj pointed out in #91 "This was a 2006 vote - before we won seats".

My error was in not recognizing the vote was before the Dems controlled the Senate.

Mea Culpa. :hi:

[karynnj]

91. This was a 2006 vote - before we won seats

[fedupinBushcountry]

6. I cannot believe the responses to this post

Are you so with your candidate that you just don't care what this is about? Did you even read what the bill said?

http://www.handicap-international.org.uk/page_247.php">Two people an hour killed or injured by cluster munitions

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2007/11/05/do0502.xml">Cluster bombs and teddy bears

[Whisp]

9. disgusting, isn't it?

now if it was the * that voted this way - hey, there'd be hell to pay - at least in words and 00000's and 11111111's around here.

but it's Hillllllllary.....
she always has a 'good' reason for shit like this. CFEE coming up?

[jody]

10. The bill is about what weapons our troops can use to minimize their casualties. Would you also

support banning all firearms and bombs because they cause collateral damage and lingering threat long after the conflict is ended?

Any explosive arm; e.g. bomb, artillery shell, grenade, etc.; if they did not explode immediately can explode decades after they were used.

Our military is under civilian control and congress should seriously consider all the ramifications of war before they approve a war.

Once war is declared, congress has a moral obligation to make sure our troops do not die needlessly.

[Yael]

12. I am giving her the benefit of the doubt on this

She's not a rookie and this would be the rookie mistake to end all. She's too in love with her political career to throw it away over something like this.

There HAS to be more to this.

[karynnj]

93. There are two factors

1) She was positioning herself to look tougher on national security.
2) Israel had just used cluster bombs. (whether they were sold by us - I don't know)

Look at all the likely candidates then - only Obama and Kerry voted for it. Biden, Dodd and Clinton against it. Between AIPAC support and national security that was the "political" vote. DU is an outlier on this - the population at large will more likely agree with the OP. This was a moral stand by Obama and Kerry.

These weapons are at best borderline in terms of international law.

[Yael]

11. You may not support her, but this is pure crap

She isn't stupid. There had to be something in there that either limited the effectiveness or did more harm than good.

I am not in favor of her campaign for president, but this is beyond the pale. She deserves better. Lets get all of the facts.

[ProSense]

13. Excuse me, can you post facts instead of crap! She voted against the bill right?

So what exactly is beyond the pale?

[Yael]

15. The assumptions. I would like to know what her concerns were

I am not willing to jump on this without all the facts. She is MUCH smarter than that.

[fedupinBushcountry]

14. So protecting human lives

is crap ?

[Yael]

16. To repeat again -- I am not a fan of Mrx. Clinton, but I give her credit for not being

a neophyte at this. I want to know what her reasons were before I pass judgment.

Perhaps this was a move because it didn't go FAR enough and there is pending modifications coming on the heels.

[Tellurian]

21. Thank you, If you look for yourself and click the links..

in the official site and delve further...Mrs. Clinton was a supporter of the original bill. And please see the Republicans Frist and Alexander who jumped on this bill with their own proposals. When you dig deeper, which apparently is not in the best interests of the OP's motivation for casting Senator Clinton in a bad light, you will see more than meets the eye and understand the fight we face everyday with the distortion of facts by reckless, ruthless, OPs.

edited to correct sponsor to supporter.

[ProSense]

26. "Mrs. Clinton was a sponsor of the original bill." Please produce the the link!

When you dig deeper, which apparently is not in the best interests of the OP's motivation for casting Senator Clinton in a bad light, you will see more than meets the eye and understand the fight we face everyday with the distortion of facts by reckless, ruthless, OPs.

Come on, produce the link and the explanation for Hillary's vote against the bill!

Senate Debates, Votes On Feinstein-Leahy Amendment
To Tighten Controls On U.S. Sales And Transfers
Of Cluster Bombs That Pose Lingering Threats To Innocent Civilians

WASHINGTON (Wednesday, Sept. 6) -- The U.S. Senate Wednesday voted on an amendment authored by Sens. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) and Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.) that would prevent U.S. tax dollars from being used to buy, use or transfer U.S.-made cluster bombs until the Pentagon adopts rules of engagement ensuring the weapons are not used near any large concentrations of civilians. The amendment failed in the Senate vote, 30-70.

Leahy and Feinstein offered the amendment to the annual defense budget bill, which is now being debated on the Senate Floor. Leahy is a senior member of the Senate Appropriations Committee and of the panel’s Defense Subcommittee, which handles the Senate’s work in writing the annual defense budget bill. Leahy also has long led in Congress on efforts to protect and help the innocent victims of war. He also has been the leading U.S. official championing efforts to ban the use of anti-personnel landmines, which also claim thousands of innocent victims each year.

With the amendment, Feinstein and Leahy aim to prevent the hundreds of unnecessary civilian deaths and injuries caused every year by unexploded cluster bombs. The Feinstein-Leahy Cluster Munitions Amendment would prevent funds from being spent to purchase, use, or transfer cluster bombs until the Defense Department has adopted rules of engagement to ensure that cluster bomb are not used in or near civilian areas.

“For too long, innocent civilians, not enemy combatants, have suffered the majority of casualties from cluster munitions. The recent experience in Lebanon is only the latest example of the appalling human toll of injury and death. Strict rules of engagement are long overdue, and I hope the Pentagon will support any future efforts to ensure that our cluster munitions are not used in civilian areas,” said Leahy.

A cluster munition is a large bomb, rocket or artillery shell that contains hundreds of small submunitions, or individual bomblets. In some cases, up to 40 percent of the bomblets fail to explode and therefore pose a significant danger to civilians long after conflict has ended. Cluster bombs also expose U.S. military forces to grave danger as they advance in combat through areas containing thousands of unexploded bomblets.

Feinstein and Leahy cite Israel’s recent alleged use of cluster bombs in Lebanon as a factor in proposing this amendment. Throughout southern Lebanon, more than 405 cluster bomb sites containing approximately 100,000 unexploded bomblets have been discovered. Each site covers a radius of 220 yards.

Thirteen people, including three young children, have been killed and 48 injured. So far, more than 2,900 unexploded bomblets have been destroyed in Lebanon but it will take 12 to 15 months to complete the effort.

In addition to the most recent use of cluster bombs, Leahy and Feinstein say the impact of unexploded cluster bombs on civilian populations has also been devastating in other conflicts:

· An estimated 1220 Kuwaitis and 400 Iraqi civilians have been killed since 1991.

· In Iraq in 2003, 13,000 cluster bombs with nearly 2 million bomblets were used. Combining the first and second Gulf Wars, the total number of unexploded bomblets in the region is approximately 1.2 million.

· In Afghanistan in 2001, 1228 cluster bombs with 248,056 bomblets were used. Between October 2001 and November 2002, 127 civilians were killed, 70 percent of them under the age of 18.

· In the first Gulf War, 61,000 cluster bombs were used containing 20 million bomblets. Since 1993, unexploded bomblets have killed 1600 innocent men, women, and children, injuring more than 2500 others.

· Between nine and 27 million unexploded cluster bombs remain in Laos from U.S. bombing campaigns in the 1960s and 1970s. Approximately 11,000 people, 30 percent of them children, have been killed or injured since the war ended.

link

[Tellurian]

32. Every Bill has Amendments attached to it..

what looks like a no vote on the surface revolves around other factors virtualy tainting the Bill if passed with the attached amendments. Now, you know this, as well as you know you own name, yet you choose to be disingenuous in purporting Hillary is against removing cluster bombs because it doesn't suit your agenda..

Here is the link I spoke of her support of the original bill and added amendment:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?r109:2:./temp/~r109rdqefw::

[ProSense]

39. Those are amendments to the appropriations bill, which includes

Feinstein, Leahy bill:

SA 4882. Mrs. FEINSTEIN (for herself and Mr. LEAHY) submitted an amendment intended to be proposed by her to the bill H.R. 5631, making appropriations for the Department of Defense for the fiscal year ending September 30, 2007, and for other purposes.

Those were the only sponsors of that amendment!

As for being disingenuous, I think you're trying hard to be.


Never mind. The bill was reintroduced:

S.594
Title: A bill to limit the use, sale, and transfer of cluster munitions.
Sponsor: Sen Feinstein, Dianne (introduced 2/14/2007) Cosponsors (15)
Related Bills: H.R.1755
Latest Major Action: 2/14/2007 Referred to Senate committee. Status: Read twice and referred to the Committee on Foreign Relations. COSPONSORS(15), ALPHABETICAL : (Sort: by date)


Sen Bingaman, Jeff - 6/19/2007
Sen Boxer, Barbara - 7/19/2007
Sen Brown, Sherrod - 4/10/2007
Sen Cantwell, Maria - 3/21/2007
Sen Cardin, Benjamin L. - 11/8/2007
Sen Casey, Robert P., Jr. - 12/3/2007
Sen Feingold, Russell D. - 5/2/2007
Sen Harkin, Tom - 5/23/2007
Sen Kennedy, Edward M. - 2/27/2007
Sen Kerry, John F. - 11/13/2007
Sen Leahy, Patrick J. - 2/14/2007
Sen Mikulski, Barbara A. - 2/14/2007
Sen Sanders, Bernard - 2/14/2007
Sen Whitehouse, Sheldon - 7/16/2007
Sen Wyden, Ron - 11/13/2007

link

It passed in September Senate passes bill on cluster bomb use


It was included in the current appropriations bill in December:

FY’08 Omnibus Appropriations Bill

Includes Leahy-Feinstein Reforms

To Restrict The Sale Or Transfer Of Cluster Bombs



WASHINGTON (Tuesday, Dec. 18) -- U.S. Senators Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.) and Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) Tuesday announced that the Fiscal Year 2008 Omnibus Appropriations Bill includes a measure they sponsored to restrict the sale or transfer of cluster bombs. The Senate is expected to pass the appropriations bill Tuesday night.



The measure requires that no military funds will be used for the sale or transfer or cluster bombs, unless:

*

the cluster bombs have a failure rate of 1 percent or less;

*

the sale or transfer agreement specifies that the cluster bombs will be used only against clearly defined military targets and not where civilians are known to be present.

Currently, the arsenal of the U.S. military contains 5.5 million cluster bombs, or 728 million bomblets – many of which have a failure rate of 1 percent or higher.



The Leahy-Feinstein cluster munitions provisions are included in the State and Foreign Operations section of the Omnibus Appropriations Bill. Senator Leahy chairs the Appropriations subcommittee that handled the Senate’s work in writing the bill.



“We can do something about the civilian deaths and injuries from these weapons,” said Leahy. “These are sensible steps that will make a difference in protecting innocent people from the indiscriminate carnage caused by cluster munitions. These are reasonable limits that the Pentagon should embrace. My hope is that this will serve as an example for other governments that share our concern.”



“The United States should not be in the business of selling and transferring weapons that pose such a significant risk to innocent civilians,” Feinstein said. “The sensible restrictions contained in this measure will help save lives and improve the image of the United States around the world. I am hopeful that the Administration will join us in supporting this language and working together to protect innocent men, women and children from what are essentially de facto landmines. It’s time to put an end to this needless death and suffering.”



Background

Cluster bombs are designed to come apart in the air before making contact, dispersing between 200 and 400 small bomblets that can saturate a wide radius of 250 yards. They are intended for military use when attacking large-scale enemy troop formations. However, in practice, cluster bombs have increasingly been used in or near populated areas.

Handicap International studied the effects of cluster bombs in 24 countries and regions, including Afghanistan, Chechnya, Laos, and Lebanon. Its report found that civilians make up 98 percent of those killed or injured by cluster bombs and that children account for 27 percent of the casualties.



The senators said the civilian toll has been staggering:

*

Combining the first and second Gulf Wars, the total number of unexploded bomblets in the region is approximately 1.2 million. An estimated 1,220 Kuwaitis and 400 Iraqi civilians have been killed since 1991.

*

In Iraq in 2003, 13,000 cluster bombs with nearly 2 million bomblets were used.

*

In Afghanistan in 2001, 1,228 cluster bombs with 248,056 bomblets were used. Between October 2001 and November 2002, 127 civilians were killed, 70 percent of them under the age of 18.

*

Between nine and 27 million unexploded cluster bombs remain in Laos from U.S. bombing campaigns in the 1960s and 1970s. Approximately 11,000 people, 30 percent of them children, have been killed or injured since the war ended.

*

Most recently, it is estimated that Israel dropped 4 million bomblets in southern Lebanon, and 1 million of these bomblets failed to explode. And reports indicate that Hezbollah retaliated with cluster bomb strikes of their own.

more

[Tellurian]

42. BALONEY...SPAM ALL YOU WANT..

I corrected sponsor to supporter which doesn't nullify the effect as to your divisive tactics to cast Sen Clinton in a bad light..Rave on, Non-Sense!

[ProSense]

44. Poor you! n/t

[Tellurian]

46. No poor you! UNmasked as Pro-Nonsense!

boo-hoo!

[ShortnFiery]

50. Wow, feel better?

:eyes:

[Tellurian]

55. Uh, huh!

you..:hi:

[ShortnFiery]

61. Yeah, I'm doing fine.

Thanks. Even though you're wrong on almost every issue ;) ... well, I still like you, it's your charm. :hi:

[Tellurian]

65. Thats because..

I'm TallnCharming, yet I never look down on ShortnFiery people, even when they're misguided.

:toast: :party: :toast:

[jody]

40. SA 4882. Mrs. FEINSTEIN (for herself and Mr. LEAHY) submitted an amendment

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?r109:3:./temp/~r109zUW4of::

[ProSense]

43. What are you giving me?

SA 4882. Mrs. FEINSTEIN (for herself and Mr. LEAHY) submitted an amendment intended to be proposed by her to the bill H.R. 5631, making appropriations for the Department of Defense for the fiscal year ending September 30, 2007, and for other purposes; as follows:

At the end of title VIII, add the following:

Sec. 8109. No funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act my be obligated or expended to acquire, utilize, sell, or transfer any cluster munition unless the rules of engagement applicable to the cluster munition ensure that the cluster munition will not be used in or near any concentrated population of civilians, whether permanent or temporary, including inhabited parts of cities or villages, camps or columns of refugees or evacuees, or camps or groups of nomads.

Yes, it's the Feinstein, Leahy bill! They were the sponsors.

[jody]

47. SA 4882 was not a bill, it was an amendment, n/t

[no name no slogan]

24. She's gets big campaign $$$ from the defense industry

so this shouldn't come as a big surprise.

[Tellurian]

27. It's employees of the Defense Industry...

your perception is way off..

[no name no slogan]

33. Like CEOs and other executives

so no, it's not off

[Tellurian]

36. Like employees who still need jobs no matter who is president..

They are the small donors who give $20-$25 dollars whatever they can afford and are bundled for campaigns.

We have a whole fleet of planes that have been grounded because they are old, have structural design problems that need to be replaced. You're thinking small, when there are jobs involved and security issues at stake.

[ShortnFiery]

45. Don't cha know? Every Nation needs those PRETTY WEAPONS. ;)

[Tellurian]

48. Hi S&F..been on vacay, have ya?

yeah, here's the current article released a few days ago regarding the breakup of F-15's due to age and structural flaws.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/10/AR2008011003411.html

[ShortnFiery]

51. Hey Tellurian, yeah, damn real world has been demanding ...

not that I don't love and miss you all. :-) :hi:

[Tellurian]

52. I missed you too.. was getting ready to go looking for ya!

another article relating to the F-15s..

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/01/11/air_force_keeping_some_f_15s_on_ground_cites_systemic_flaws/

[ShortnFiery]

28. Spot ON! And in the case of cluster bombs, we can "spread the hate" years from now

As the children playing in the area continue to blow off appendages, etc.

Well, those cluster bombs are not going to blow up themselves, are they? And laying around for future HORRORS is just what we need to "protect our troops." :crazy:

[ProSense]

53. Please, warning graphic. Tragic! n/t

[jody]

29. Links below to senate’s discussion of Sen. Feinstein S.AMDT.4882.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r109:1:./temp/~r1092KmEZH:e0:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r109:1:./temp/~r1092KmEZH:e20807:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r109:1:./temp/~r1092KmEZH:e43470:

[ShortnFiery]

31. Awe, DiFi, the Defense Industries contribute mucho funding to her "illustrious" campaign chest.

Oh yes, she's objective ... another warmongering "Iron Lady." :puke:

[jody]

34. Link below to senate vote On Feinstein Amdt. No. 4882

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00232

[jody]

54. Congress did pass a bill with a section on cluster munitions, H.R.2764 see below.

H.R.2764 Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2008 passed and became Public Law No: 110-161

LANDMINES AND CLUSTER MUNITIONS
SEC. 646. (a) LANDMINES- Notwithstanding any other provision of law, demining equipment available to the United States Agency for International Development and the Department of State and used in support of the clearance of landmines and unexploded ordnance for humanitarian purposes may be disposed of on a grant basis in foreign countries, subject to such terms and conditions as the President may prescribe.
(b) CLUSTER MUNITIONS- During the current fiscal year, no military assistance shall be furnished for cluster munitions, no defense export license for cluster munitions may be issued, and no cluster munitions or cluster munitions technology shall be sold or transferred, unless--
(1) the submunitions of the cluster munitions have a 99 percent or higher tested rate; and
(2) the agreement applicable to the assistance, transfer, or sale of the cluster munitions or cluster munitions technology specifies that the cluster munitions will only be used against clearly defined military targets and will not be used where civilians are known to be present.

The bill passed is different than the Feinstein/Leahy amendment.

Sec. 8109. No funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act my be obligated or expended to acquire, utilize, sell, or transfer any cluster munition unless the rules of engagement applicable to the cluster munition ensure that the cluster munition will not be used in or near any concentrated population of civilians, whether permanent or temporary, including inhabited parts of cities or villages, camps or columns of refugees or evacuees, or camps or groups of nomads.

ON EDIT ADD:
HR 2764 does not limit U.S. commanders when using cluster munitions as the Feinstein/Leahy amendment could have done.

[ProSense]

57. Same thing,

after it passes the Senate and goes through conference report, etc.

[jody]

58. HR 2764 is already law and it does not limit U.S. commanders when using cluster munitions as the

Feinstein/Leahy amendment could have done.

ON EDIT ADD: Feinstein and Leahy voted for HR 2762
See http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=1&vote=00325

[ProSense]

62. Same legislation

U.S.-made cluster bombs were used in Israel's war in July last year against Hezbollah guerrillas in Lebanon. The State Department opened a probe of the bombs after reports they were responsible for many civilian deaths.

Cluster bombs burst into bomblets and are meant to explode near the ground but often do not. The United Nations has called for a freeze on the use of these bombs in or near populated areas.

Feinstein said on Friday the bombs had taken a lethal toll on civilians across the world from Vietnam and Laos to the Middle East.

"It's time to put an end to this needless death and suffering," she said in a statement with Leahy.

The Senate bill must still be reconciled with a spending bill passed by the House of Representatives in June, which did not include any measures on cluster bombs.

Moreover, President George W. Bush could veto the bill, which passed 81-12 in the Senate.

link

It was included in that bill.

[jody]

64. Are you reading challenged? The law passed does not limit US commanders as the Feinstein amendment

could have.

[ProSense]

66. Do you understand what it means when legislation is reconciled?

Senate passes bill. House passes bill. Bills reconciled.

Does the fact that both your link and the article I linked to indicate the bill passed 81-12 give you any clues?

[jody]

69. Read my #54 again. The law passed does not limit US Cmdrs. as Feinstein’s 4882 Amend to H.R. 5631

would have done because H.R.5631 is “Making appropriations for the Department of Defense for the fiscal year ending September 30, 2007, and for other purposes.”

Surely anyone with a graduate degree and fours years experience as a LT., Intelligence Officer should see that!

[ProSense]

75. Obviously, this could go on forever. One thing that hasn't been

answered is why Hillary voted against the original bill. She did not vote on the current bill either. None of the candidates did, but at least we know Obama vote for the original.

[jody]

77. Clinton voted Yea on H.R. 5631 and did not vote on H.R. 2764. n/t

[ProSense]

80. Tell me how did she vote

here?

[jody]

84. Nay along with 69 others because it would have limited U.S. commanders. n/t

[ProSense]

90. Yeah, 55 of them were Republicans. Still,

are you trying to prove that voting against a bill to protect civilian lives from unexploded cluster munitions is good?

[jody]

94. Don't you understand what you write? If 55 senators are Republican then Repugs control the senate.

Are you reading-challenged? :rofl:

[ProSense]

97. No, but it's obvious

you are desperate!

[jody]

102. Me desperate? That's the funniest thing you've written so far. n/t

[ShortnFiery]

87. ROFL, I'm flattered to have my persona confused with Prosense.

Regrettably, I am a person who has the profound "temperment flaw" of sometimes going off half-cocked, hence my screen name. :blush: -----> BUT NOW I've seemingly met someone even more feisty. Too cool! Hey JODY? Come up for air super trooper? :-) :hi: :P

No, Prosense is the intellectual researcher of this thread. I defer to his/her outstanding work and efforts within this thread.

Prosense ---> :yourock:

On Edit: I see from her profile that Prosense is from New Jersey. Hey now, from Northern Vir-Gin-I-A. :hi:

[ProSense]

92. Back atcha:

:yourock:



:hi:

[jody]

96. I haven't confused you with Prosense. I directed you to my post that answered your question. n/t

[rinsd]

98. Wow a vote Obama showed up on. You must have had to really dig for it.

[TeamJordan23]

99. Sadly, you can only attack and not defend Clinton's vote. nm