Uncommitted receiving 40% should be a huge concern

[origin1286]

Look, I don't want to turn this into a Hillary bashing thread, but this is not a good omen.

40% of the voters who came out had no reason to other than to vote against Hillary. Their candidate wasn't on the ballot. The election doesn't count.

But 304,000 votes for Clinton vs 218,000 for uncommitted.

Assuming Hillary gets the nomination, this has to be a concern. People are willing to go out and vote in relatively strong numbers simply to vote against Hillary.

Hillary is a divisive candidate. This shows just how divisive. People love her or hate her. There are very few who are neutral on her (at least it seems to be so).

This is a big come November. She'll have trouble wooing any independents. There are quite a few Democrats who would vote against her.

For you level-headed Hillary supporters: How can Hillary fix her divisive image if she does get the nomination? As it stands right now, she would not win vs a McCain.

[book_worm]

1. You are exactly right

She was the only viable candidate on the ballot and turn out was down--lots of Obama and Edwards voters didn't turn out and yet 45% (including votes for uncommitted, Kucinich, ect) still voted against her.

[William769]

2. How do you figure?

No matter how you break those numbers down Hillary won hands down. Take the uncommitted vote and divide it evenly what do you get? Hillary still with a double digit lead. Anyone who says anything differently needs to get their head out of the sand.

[origin1286]

7. William, there are only 2 candidates in the general election

I think it's a relatively safe assumption that the 40% who voted uncommitted just do not like Hillary and the majority would have trouble voting for her in November. If they're willing to leave the comforts of their home to vote against her, I don't see them ever coming together to vote for her.

Which means they either go Republican in November or don't vote. That's big.

[William769]

9. I disagree.

The debate proved that this evening. No matter who the candiate is in the GE Democrats will vote for. It's that important.

[origin1286]

13. I for one

Will not vote for HRC if she is the nominee.

I can't get over the Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton thing.

That is the worst thing possible for this country. I'd take a Mccain presidency if it means breaking the dynasties.

[William769]

15. Thats your problem not mine.

The average person is not rabid.

[origin1286]

17. The average person

Doesn't give a shit about policy. They care if they like the candidate.

Sad, but true. The majority of America could not name a single policy of any major candidate. Don't believe me? Take a door to door trip around your town and ask.

[William769]

21. And your point?

[origin1286]

24. my point

Is that "the average person is not rabid" is less relevant than the fact that the average person is stupid.

And Hillary is polarizing to the average person. I'd put money on it being a near even split across the country. 50% like her, 50% hate her (don't misconstrue that to mean I think she could carry 50% in the GE)

[William769]

25. New Hampshire proves you wrong.

Michigan proves you wrong, and yes even Iowa proves you wrong.

[origin1286]

29. Not quite

Hillary is winning among hardcore Democrats.

She is getting little to no support from independents.

How many times has someone won the general election with so little support from independents?

This is not a thread about primaries. This is a thread about what this indicates for Hillary's chances in the GE.

[William769]

32. She took 34% of Independents In New Hampshire. Guess again.

And heres a little factoid for you if you can't Garner the Hardcore Democrats, your not going to make it to the General.

[fadedrose]

79. Another factoid

I'm hardcore Dem and haven't been anywhere near garnered by the Clintons.

[vanboggie]

40. No Michigan does not prove Origin wrong

Had Obama and Edwards been on the ballot, results would have been much, much different. A couple hundred thousand of us went out to vote in an election that doesn't matter (no delegates), just to register a vote against Hillary. It's a joke to think her "win" in MI means a damn thing.

[William769]

43. Oh yea? Guess again.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4081397

[vanboggie]

60. Read the entire post

Did you miss this part?

"However, I personally believe this is not to be taken too seriously.
We don't know how many Obama and Edwards supporters simply stayed home because 1) They found no reason to go vote in these unusual uncontested elections and 2) the weather, I heard, was not optimal."

[fadedrose]

78. MI win means something

It means we need new leadership - governor, senators, reps....soon I hope.

[spag68]

33. Surely you jest

If you are even mildly democratic you can't vote for someone that rabid. Just stay home.

[Carrieyazel]

80. The problem is, with McCain as their nominee, millions of Dems will crossover and go with him.

And he'll crush Hillary among Independents. She's just not a good GE candidate.

[Liz7]

26. you're missing the big picture

I voted uncommitted because I wanted to vote for Edwards and I want some uncommitted delegates to go to the convention. I don't want Hillary, but I'll vote for her if I have to. What you're missing is that many people who voted uncommitted will vote for whoever the Dem nominee is because they're fed up with the Republicans.

The big picture battle is us vs. them, not us vs. Hillary. I don't like Hillary, but leaving the White House in Republican hands is far more repugnant to me.

[creeksneakers2]

41. Were there other names on the ballot?

Could some of the people who voted uncommitted have gone to the polls to vote in another race?

[Liz7]

63. no, it was the only one on the ballot

[JackORoses]

28. the only people who had a reason to come out were Hillary supporters

of course she won.

What the OP is saying is that those 40% had no real reason to show up, but did so just to vote against Hillary.

If this had been a real contest, it would have been a much different story.

I look forward to South Carolina.

[William769]

34. Wrong people had the voice to come out and vote uncommitted, they didn't

Going by what you say.

Just goes to show the support for Hillary is solid and people will do what they need to do to get that message out.

[JackORoses]

35. you don't think more Obama and Edwards supporters would have shown up if this was a real contest

with real delegates

[William769]

37. So then your not saying much for them are you?

They had a chance to speak.

[vanboggie]

42. You just don't get it, do you

Michigan had a pretend Democratic Primary. Duh.

[William769]

44. I get it you just can't sell it.

[JAbuchan08]

69. Too bad you're not buying. 'cuz you need it, like really badly.

[JackORoses]

49. They knew that the Primary didn't count.

More voters show up when their vote counts.
That's a fact.

[William769]

51. Again thats not saying much of those supporters.

They had a chance to make a point and they didn't. You can't spin that.

[ZinZen]

55. William you also need to understand

that turnout was low on the Dem side. Those numbers aren't "winning" numbers no matter how you may want to spin it for your candidate.

[papau]

3. there was a protest vote against the leaders of the Mich Dem Party over chg'g dates - also Obama

supporters sent out info requesting a vote for "uncommitted"

In any case it was not a primary that counted for anything.

[Catherine Vincent]

4. I am sure they are the Edwards and Obama supporters.

That doesn't mean they wouldn't vote for the nominee, even if it is Hillary. No big deal.

[robbedvoter]

23. And 40% between all of them - not that impressive.

[Invidious]

5. Exactly

I have voted for Dems in every election I have ever voted in..and HRC is enough to make me not vote come November if she is the nominee. I just don't trust or LIKE her.

[elana i am]

6. that may not even

be accurate...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4080028

20 counties worth of uncommitted votes may not have even been recorded.

[aquart]

8. Or they were REALLY FURIOUS with the DNC.

And a candidate willing to split the country on racial lines for a vote, like dear Obama, is the epitome of 'divisive' and 'polarizing.'

So take your 'divisive' and put it where the sun don't shine.

[origin1286]

10. How can you say Obama is divisive?

Look at the likability polls (lolpolls). Obama is the most likable Democrat among republicans and by far the most likable Democrat among Democrats. He is not divisive at all. Most people who don't support him at least like him. The opposite is true with Hillary.

[ruggerson]

11. If Barack Obama had been alone on the ballot

The uncommitted tally would have been close to 60%. So how do you figure this is a bad omen? This is a primary - we have opposing candidates. In November, the opposing candidate will be the Republican.

[Arugula Latte]

12. I thought the same thing...It shows how polarizing she is. nt

[origin1286]

14. Polarizing is the word I was looking for eom

[William769]

16. ...

[robbedvoter]

18. She won by 60 % and you are concerned? O-key Dokey then.

[Patsy Stone]

31. No.

60% of the people who turned out, turned out specifically to vote for her, since she and Dennis were the only two candidates still running left on the ballot.

40% of the people turned out specifically to vote against her.

These 40% didn't have to turn out, there are no delegates awarded. They had no candidate to support, but they had one they were against.

Now, imagine there is a candidate(s) attached to that 40% who also has a following of their own.

Understand?

[dpbrown]

19. That was a protest vote against the DNC stripping Michigan of its delegates

Nothing more.

[origin1286]

22. Protesting against the DNC

Is equally as bad. I see no way Michigan goes Democrat now in the GE.

[dpbrown]

36. The Republicans did the same thing - did you just crawl out from under a rock?

You might want to get a little better informed before trolling for Hillary bashers.

[CyberPieHole]

20. How many votes did Obama get?

Remeber NO ONE was allowed to campaign in Michigan. Hopefully, the Michigan delegates will be counted at the convention and Clinton will have been proved shrewd by not dropping out.

[appal_jack]

39. ow! botox burnss!!!

The massive quantity of Botox emanating from that photo of Hillary is searing my retinas. Please make it stop.

-app

[CyberPieHole]

47. I'll put you on *ignore* and eliminate you from my line of sight, post haste.

[appal_jack]

70. didn't work - I can still see her

I don't put people on 'ignore,' so I guess I'll just have to don the botox-proof safety glasses in threads we cohabit.

Even infuriating opinions (mine, yours, bornagainhooligan's, whoever's...) can be fascinating or sometimes even enlightening, so 'ignore' is a feature I choose to ignore...

-app

[Lucinda]

27. It's not a concern for me. It's excellent. They are not abandoning them Dems and are voting

uncommitted because they have hopes of being able to seat uncommitted delegates at the convnetion, which would benefit JE and Obama.
I'd be more worried if there hadn't been good turnout.

[AtomicKitten]

30. "40% of the voters who came out had no reason to other than to vote against Hillary."

in a nutshell

[wiley]

50. I disagree with you. 100% of Democrats who voted,

voted. They all could have voted for Kucinich, but they didn't. They all could have voted for uncommitted, but they didn't. 60% voted for Clinton. Did 60% of Democratic voters come out for no other reason than to vote for Senator Clinton? If so, that's a huge win for her. I don't think that any Clinton, Obama or Edwards supporters are reading much into this vote other than Senator Clinton is not the hateful, divisive monster that you would have her be. I appreciate your support for Obama, but I'd bet he would dispute your interpretation, as he would the OP. Obama has no reason to debase his campaign or himself, as you appear to be doing with your comments about Senator Clinton. As Senator Obama clearly stated in the debate tonight, and previously, his supporters don't necessarily speak for him, or even say things he would ever say. Although I still have issues with all the candidates, I could vote for any of them without hesitation. They all won the debate tonight and I was proud of all of them as well. We'll just have to ignore the media and ignore each campaign's unofficial surrogates and vote for whom we support in the primaries, then vote for the Democrat in November. Together, I think Clinton, Obama and Edwards selflessly put the brakes on a out of control situation. They have demonstrated any one of them could be trusted to lead.

[AtomicKitten]

53. Any interpretation is moot because Michigan tonight wasn't a genuine measure of the electorate.

That would have required all names on the ballot.

[wiley]

57. So don't agree with the OP then. You did, which means you

agreed with some interpretation. So are you now disagreeing with the OP?

[AtomicKitten]

58. I agreed with the sentence I indicated above - the one you responded to.

And, yes, I do think that whoever came out to vote non-committed did so against something, or someone as the case may be.

There is also this nasty business: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4080028

[wiley]

61. I have a much more optimistic, hope inspired view

I think those who voted uncommitted voted for a reason, but not against something or someone. I have many Black friends and some are passionate Obama supporters, as well as passionate supporters of other Democrats in the race. Without exception - and this may be self selection among my friends - not one of them would ever pass up the opportunity to exercise their right to vote. Some still remember when they did not have the right to vote, one first hand, the others as a result of stories related to them by their families. One can vote uncommitted and actually want to vote that way given the options presented to them. I see that as voting for something.

[Liz7]

64. well said

[AtomicKitten]

66. Well, there's optimism and then there are statistics.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4081644

[wiley]

76. Read your "statistics" closely.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/epolls/#MIDEM

You cite one demographic and even then Clinton took 30%.

[AtomicKitten]

67. Just so you know

I am not oblivious to the happy talk you are trying to insert here. I get it. I realize this is a community and peace and harmony are a good thing, but these are times that demand debate, demand that people speak up. And I know you aren't open to hearing this but, I have no love for Hillary Clinton right now; in fact, it's getting worse. She is suing in each state to try to suppress her rivals' votes. She is getting prominent Democrats to stand up and say the most vile sh*t about Obama, and I'll stop now because I'm sure you get the picture.

My point is I'm entitled to my point of view, and Democratic Underground makes it possible to express that point of view within a reasonable framework. I realize you don't like what I have to say and that it doesn't fit within your vision of how you would like everything to be here, but that's the beauty of interaction with people very different from you. If you are open to it, it can be a very enlightening experience. But, alas, that is not to be had here at DU for the most part because some people are afraid to say what they really think and that is validated by the resistance those not on the beaten path (as some see it) receive here.

[wiley]

77. You really don't get the picture

Express your point of view whenever you like. I don't run DU. I was merely conversing with you. And you are just restarting the same tired arguments about Clinton attacking Obama. Next.

[Purveyor]

38. Indeed if Hillary is the nominee, she will not win Michigan so just go ahead and

scratch us off the list right now.

Either Romney or McCain will carry this state with ease...

[CyberPieHole]

54. The same could be said about Obama and Edwards who failed to get ONE singel vote...

since they felt that the votes of Michigan Democrats were not worth the paper they were written on. There was no requirement of the removal of a candidate's name...Obama and Edwards chose to do so to show their contempt for MI. Clinton got 60% of the vote...a number anyone would be more than happy to get any day of the week.

[Liz7]

65. you're oversimplifying

Just because some people voted uncommitted (i.e., "against" Clinton) in the primary doesn't mean they won't vote for her in the general if they see the alternative (a Republican) as worse.

[Perky]

45. She did Lousy in Wayne County

and 6 other counties... an another four counties She is under 55%


Not good at all

http://www.politico.com/miprimaries/miprimaryjan080115.html

Lest it be lost on anyone

No the real news is that it suggest that she will not do well In Philly. Pittburgh, Newark, Baltimore, Cleveland, Saint Louis. Richmond, Charlotte and Memphis during the primary season

[bigbrother05]

46. Or Dems were committed to vote in their primary

no matter whether the DNC or Michigan party screwed up the process and could invalidate the whole election. We should all praise the folks who turn out to vote even though their choice was not on the ballot.

Unlike some, they support their party and the process in spite of the obstacles.

[knowledgeispwr]

48. 68% of blacks voted "uncommitted" in the dem primary

according to Msnbc exit polls, while only 31% of whites did.

51% of men voted for Clinton, while 60% of women did.

Clinton did best in the 60 and older category, with 68% of their vote and wost in the 18-29 category, with 43% of the vote.

more info: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21225987/

[Barack_America]

56. I'd like to see the raw #'s

I'll bet that the 60 and older crowd represented a large number of the voters. At least many of them don't have to take off work to vote in an essentially worthless primary.

[HughMoran]

52. Well, except that they were asked to

They were being obedient

[Seabiscuit]

59. I for one neither love, hate, nor support her.

But I do think she'd be a lot stronger standing up to the GOP machine during the general election than Obama would. Obama seems increasingly hesitant, unsure of himself, and uneasy expressing himself about the issues. Sometimes he resorts to platitudes without ever really saying anything about what he'd do about it all.

Guess who I'm voting for?

[BenDavid]

62. Give me 60% and I will win every time.

[Guava Jelly]

68. I had the same thought myself

If she gets the nod I will vote for her.
I am just afraid that she is going to get her ass handed to her.

[Auntie Bush]

71. Not surprising since she even has so many DU haters.

Many don't have any REAL reasons to hate her. They keep posting their personal ideas of what Hillary is like, what she's thinking, feelings or even dreaming....few real hard facts. That's why there are many hundreds of posts here bad mouthing Clinton. Could they be projecting? 10%:90% real facts : made up wishful thinking.

[rinsd]

72. McCain is the most diffcult of the GOPers in head to head with Dems.

All year he has been close to the Big 3 never more than a few percentage points out of it.

Also 304,000 people voted for Hillary even though it did not matter.

IOW, more people feel strongly enough to vote for her than to vote against her.

[HooptieWagon]

73. more people feel strongly enough to vote for her than to vote against her.

The Hillary supporters can pooh, pooh, and spin all they like; but that doesn't negate the fact that of 40% of all Dems that cared to show up in a snowstorm to vote, knowing their votes didn't count, voted against Hillary. What candidate could possibly win a GE if 40% of their own party is adamately against them?

[rinsd]

74. And 55% of Democrats showed up in a snowstorm to vote for Hillary.

Even though it was meaningless.

"What candidate could possibly win a GE if 40% of their own party is adamately against them?"

Yes because no candidate thru surrogates was encouraging the uncommitted vote. :eyes:

[IndianaGreen]

75. Everytime the party listens to the DLC, defeat surely follows

The Detroit vote was an eye opener.

[suston96]

81. Uh, Hillary got 55%, the rest, whoever they are, got 45%? And that's to worry about?