Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Scheiber: Why Obama's the Dem Debate's Real Winner

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 09:01 AM
Original message
Scheiber: Why Obama's the Dem Debate's Real Winner
http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_stump/archive/2008/01/16/nevada-debate-thoughts.aspx


I scratched my head when I heard Chris Matthews proclaim Hillary the victor of tonight's debate on the strength of her "presidential"-ism and her Iraq maneuvering. There's no question Hillary looked confident and in-command, and that she's put her Iraq problems behind her. (Though I'd argue that happened a couple months ago.) Conversely, there were times when Obama seemed a little tired and out of it. But I think this plane of analysis mostly misses what had happened last night.

For the last week, you could sense the campaign obsessives becoming increasingly pessimistic about Obama's chances. This happened for two reasons. First, an extensive discussion of race seemed to force Obama into the role of "black candidate." Second, Hillary's questions about the steadfastness of Obama's war opposition made him look like a typical equivocating politician. The thinking was that Hillary would win if the race became a competition between a "white candidate" and a "black candidate," or a race between two conventional candidates. Worse, Hillary seemed able to impose these frames on the race almost at will. If Obama ignored the charges, he risked having them stick. And if he engaged, he risked becoming exactly what he wanted to avoid--either an aggrieved African American or a bickering pol.

That's the way it looked until the last day or so, in any case. What Obama demonstrated last night is that he's just as capable of imposing his own frame on the race. Each time he took a question about race or the recent bickering, he responded with his trademark uplift and forced Hillary to respond in kind.

Granted, the Clintonites were clearly ready to end the ugly skirmish themselves. But I got the sense there was much more happy talk than they preferred. If this becomes a contest to see who can be more unifying and high-minded, Hillary will have problems.

I saw two specific moments when this dynamic came through last night. The first was on the question of the campaigns' respective surrogates. Obama was asked about a document in which his South Carolina press secretary had catalogued all the racial affronts Clinton and her surrogates had committed. Obama said he regretted it "not only in hindsight but going forward." He added: "t is my responsibility to make sure that we're setting a clear tone in our campaign. And I take that responsibility very seriously, which is why I spoke yesterday and sent a message... Now, there are going to be significant issues that we debate and some serious differences that we have... What I am absolutely convinced of is that everybody here is committed to racial equality, has been historically."

For her part, Clinton also made the necessary statements about getting beyond divisiveness. But on the specific question of surrogates, she fell flat, saying she took BET founder Bob Johnson at his (highly implausible) word when he tried explaining away an obvious allusion to Obama's teenage drug-use.

Obama was magnanimous and winning. Hillary was clenched and grudging. The comparison wasn't especially flattering to her.

The second relevant moment came toward the end of the debate, when Obama fielded a question about why so many African Americans drop out of school at every level. His response started off wonky and small-bore, focusing on early-childhood education and how the return on such programs is exceptionally high. But, before long, he was waxing eloquent about how the problem is a lack of resolve in the White House, not a lack of solutions. "et's be clear," he said. "We have good answers for how to make these schools work. What we don't have is a sense of urgency in the White House." Then it was onto a winning riff about being raised by a single mother, and how education had been his lifeline. For good measure, he closed with a tough-love admonition to African-American fathers to take parenting seriously.

And Hillary? Tim Russert was set to move on when she flagged him to say: "This is what I've done for 35 years. We've got to do more to give families the tools and the support that they should have so that they can be the best parents. ... It's not only the family; it's not only the school system. We all have a role to play. "

Perfectly adequate stuff. But, as I say, a competition in uplift is not a competition Hillary wins.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 09:02 AM
Response to Original message
1. Clinton kicked butt
a "competition in uplift" nice spin, tho. We are picking a President, not a poet Laurette.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. You're a good little soldier and I expected nothing less from you.
:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. right back atcha baby. Your Obama-goggles are influencing you
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. I have yet begun to google! Found this gem at my first stop! nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GalleryGod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #4
12. Hey! Great! We're selling Goggles,Too! Beats the shiite out of those reverse-mirrored models
the Clinton Cadre wear...hey!hey! "Back to the 90's " Yeah,sure.

Here's a guy whose D.C. "experience" would've FLUNKED him on the Clinton "Experience-O-Meter"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GalleryGod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #2
11. When Hillary decided NOT to say that Obama & Edwards were "qualified to be President"..I decided.
A) To Send Obama $250.00 more (running total= $1,250)
B) Redouble my efforts to derail the megalomania that is this "Dynasty from Arkansas"

BTW..wasn't her husband's acceptance speech entitled:
"I Still Believe In A Place Called HOPE" ?
CURIOUS? or as Ron Ziegler said, in the storm of Watergate,
"That's the NON operative theme, now" ???






"How'd Michigan shake-out, Senator?" "Landslide??"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. It's good to know Obama has such grand supporters. Thank you
for being one of them! :applause:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Good for you, but what a stupid reason. Not one of them said the other was
qualified to be president. And, really if she is running on experience, how can she without undermining her own campaign? That is really unfair. I think she answered it exactly like she should have.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GalleryGod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. My "American Presidency 1950-2007" class is still in "drop & add" period.
Care to join us?

"Stupid"? You are both rude and impudent, fellow DUer.

I'm a combat veteran with the 1st Air Cav in Vietnam.
I've worked in the following Democratic Presidential Primaries:
1968 California-RFK
1976- New Hampshire & Iowa-Carter
1984- New Hampshire- Hart
1992- New Hampshire-Clinton-even though WJC and I share August 19th as a birth date,thus we have the same "Draft Lottery #";you can google that term which was #319 out of 365.
Stupid? I think not, my friend.



My hero, Colonel Hal Moore, who was a real "flip-flopper" when he changed tactics @ LZ X-ray and annihilated 1,965 PAVN's with 395 1st Cav troopers.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Inuca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #14
29. As far as I remember
she was the only one asked that question. Plus, she could have simply said that they are all qualified, but she has the best qualifications.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Inuca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #11
28. That was quite unbelievable
And rude.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Inuca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Laureate n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. thanks
no coffee yet.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #1
9. bwahahaha
what is a poet "Laurette"? Too funny!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Skwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #1
19. Didn't she agree that the President would need to unite people in order for change to occur?
And exactly how would the most polarizing person in the country (besides Bush) be able to do this?
Anyone?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
6. I'm glad that I'm not alone in my conclusions
in watching the debate.....Obama was more of an original.

Includes his conservation remarks....which no one else mentioned. Something that, We the People, could do right away to help with Global Warming.....if we had the right motivation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GalleryGod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #6
15. Hillary would be great:As Chancellor of the Exchequer in the UK
Edited on Wed Jan-16-08 09:38 AM by GalleryGod
Reagan had vision, Bobby had it,JFK had it, even though cribbed, Bill Clinton had it.



He's the one.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
8. excellent commentary
thanks for posting it.

:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
10. Obama was wonderful in the debate.
He did what he needed to do and then some.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. I thought it was his best debate by far.
He had a command of the issues and the stage.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. He was better than ever. But Edwards WON. Hands down. nt
nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cloudythescribbler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
20. Some questions
(1) What are the different candidates' approaches to the economy and the subprime meltdown -- I couldn't grasp that from the admittedly illuminating discussion.

(2) What would Obama's question (the one he wanted to ask) have been?

(3) If President Clinton were so firm on opposition to the Yucca Mountain project, why has it and does it continue? -- and no one called Hillary on it.

(4) What is the leeway that MSNBC has to exclude (eg excluding Kucinich) from the debate? Could they have, say, legally decided to exclude Hillary?

(5) Hillary is said to be 'agnostic' on nuclear energy. WHAAAA? What does that mean?

(6) Are we offered NO serious alternatives among the main Democratic candidates on Iraq policy? Here the exclusion of Kucinich really shows (I still plan to vote Obama, as the best of the candidates with a chance of winning, but of course, in order to be viable, he has formulated positions and been cautious in expressing them

(7) What are the particulars in how W Bush could 'bind' the US to remain in Iraq by his unilateral agreements with Iraq? And is THIS the first time that Hillary has raised this issue to Obama or to the Senate? It appears that it was saved up for the photo op -- I am curious for more info on the issue

I had other questions -- I must say that I really missed the idea of having Kucinich there; he would have changed the WHOLE dynamic of the debate, by 'not getting with the program'.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
21. The Media Have a Great Script, Don't They?
This election isn't about skin color. It's not, at least not on the Dem nomination side.

Obama's best moment was when he was talking about the economy, about unfair taxation, and about Warren Buffett & his secretary.

Obama came so close to going to the heart of the matter but pulled back from saying what needed to be said. It's not just that Buffett makes so much more than his secretary and pays proportionately lower taxes: it's that she is taxed on the income of her labor, while he is taxed on profits of his investments.

To be fair, no one else said it, either. I think I'm voting for Edwards next week.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
22. Correct. Obama won the debate of IMPRESSIONS.
And that is what most Americans take away from a debate.

Hillary may have won the debate according to technical scoring methods, but that is beyond most Americans. She got more jabs in there, which may have been advantageouageous technically speaking. But, after such a divisive week, I doubt whether those jabs sat well with Americans.

Obama had the right tone. Calm, level-headed, complimentary. After a week full of back-and-forth bullshit, I'd have to think that resonated well with Americans.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
debatepro Donating Member (683 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #22
27. what specific
Edited on Wed Jan-16-08 11:55 AM by debatepro
argument did she win on the technical scoring methods? I am interested in hearing your impression.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-18-08 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #27
32. I'm sorry, but I'm not a "debatepro", as you are...
Most of the pundits were praising her for her highly detailed answers, and that's what I was referring to. But I think those details are beyond most Americans and that, on a superficial level, Obama may have come off better.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
23. I absolutely agree with this.
I came out of this debate with so much respect for Barack Obama the man.

I was so proud of him.

Hillary did a lot of explaining, and it shows her knowledge, but I knew most of that stuff so it didn't do much for me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Proud2BAmurkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
24. "competition in uplift" LOL. No objective observer thought Obama won. eom
eom
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Alizaryn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
25. I wobbled between being nauseous and feeling pity
for Chris Matthews during his slatherings last night UNTIL, I began to watch the camera flashes of Olbermann's face while he observed his ...partner's breakdown!

Thank God for Keith Olbermann (once again) for offering sanity in the midst of yet another Theater of the Absurd momement!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BenDavid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
26. Did anyone see in the news either late Sunday afternoon or Mon.
HRC's appearance on meet the press? I'm looked all over the web, watched the cable news networks, but didn't see anything about Hillary's interview with Tim R.
Having viewed the program, she tore Russert a new one.He had nothing, he totally struck out.If Russert has scored the slightest little hit, the big headline Monday would be, "Hillary melts under pressure from Russert" The "pit bull" couldn't lay a glove on her, but he did bring up Monica, the prick.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Rydz777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
30. It's in the eye of the beholder. My view: Obama was vague;
Hillary was in command of the issues; Edwards was in top form.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
31. I really think each of the three had strong
debates. The good news is that the information will help voters make up their mind by focusing on issues.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed Apr 24th 2024, 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC