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Some thoughts comparing Obama and Edwards on Health Care:

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Stop Cornyn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 06:50 PM
Original message
Some thoughts comparing Obama and Edwards on Health Care:
Michael Moore explained the differences between Edwards and Obama on health care:
Barack Obama ... who is he? I mean, other than a guy who gives a great speech? How much do any of us really know about him? I know he was against the war. How do I know that? He gave a speech before the war started. But since he joined the senate, he has voted for the funds for the war, while at the same time saying we should get out. He says he's for the little guy, but then he votes for a corporate-backed bill to make it harder for the little guy to file a class action suit when his kid swallows lead paint from a Chinese-made toy. In fact, Obama doesn't think Wall Street is a bad place. He wants the insurance companies to help us develop a new health care plan -- the same companies who have created the mess in the first place. He's such a feel-good kinda guy, I get the sense that, if elected, the Republicans will eat him for breakfast. He won't even have time to make a good speech about it....

And then there's John Edwards... A candidate who says things like this: "I absolutely believe to my soul that this corporate greed and corporate power has an ironclad hold on our democracy." Whoa. We haven't heard anyone talk like that in a while, at least not anyone who is near the top of the polls. I suspect this is why Edwards is doing so well in Iowa, even though he has nowhere near the stash of cash the other two have. He won't take the big checks from the corporate PACs, and he is alone among the top three candidates in agreeing to limit his spending and be publicly funded. He has said, point-blank, that he's going after the drug companies and the oil companies and anyone else who is messing with the American worker. The media clearly find him to be a threat, probably because he will go after their monopolistic power, too. This is Roosevelt/Truman kind of talk. .... Edwards is the only one of the three front-runners who has a universal health care plan that will lead to the single-payer kind all other civilized countries have. His plan doesn't go as fast as I would like, but he is the only one who has correctly pointed out that the health insurance companies are the enemy and should not have a seat at the table.


In case you missed the point, Michael Moore had some follow up comments:
So Barack, you can talk all you want about "let's put the partisanship aside, let's all get along," but the other side has no intention of being anything but the bullies they are. Get your game face on now. And, if you can, tell me why you are now the second largest recipient of health industry payola after Hillary. You now take more money from the people committed to stopping universal health care than any of the Republican candidates.


Paul Krugman addressed the same issue in the New York Times:
At one extreme, Barack Obama insists that the problem with America is that our politics are so "bitter and partisan," and insists that he can get things done by ushering in a "different kind of politics."

At the opposite extreme, John Edwards blames the power of the wealthy and corporate interests for our problems, and says, in effect, that America needs another F.D.R. - a polarizing figure, the object of much hatred from the right, who nonetheless succeeded in making big changes.

Over the last few days Mr. Obama and Mr. Edwards have been conducting a long-range argument over health care that gets right to this issue. And I have to say that Mr. Obama comes off looking, well, naïve.

The argument began during the Democratic debate, when the moderator - Carolyn Washburn, the editor of The Des Moines Register - suggested that Mr. Edwards shouldn't be so harsh on the wealthy and special interests, because "the same groups are often responsible for getting things done in Washington."

Mr. Edwards replied, "Some people argue that we're going to sit at a table with these people and they're going to voluntarily give their power away. I think it is a complete fantasy; it will never happen."

This was pretty clearly a swipe at Mr. Obama, who has repeatedly said that health reform should be negotiated at a "big table" that would include insurance companies and drug companies.

On Saturday Mr. Obama responded, this time criticizing Mr. Edwards by name. He declared that "We want to reduce the power of drug companies and insurance companies and so forth, but the notion that they will have no say-so at all in anything is just not realistic."

Hmm. Do Obama supporters who celebrate his hoped-for ability to bring us together realize that "us" includes the insurance and drug lobbies?

O.K., more seriously, it's actually Mr. Obama who's being unrealistic here, believing that the insurance and drug industries - which are, in large part, the cause of our health care problems - will be willing to play a constructive role in health reform. The fact is that there's no way to reduce the gross wastefulness of our health system without also reducing the profits of the industries that generate the waste.

As a result, drug and insurance companies - backed by the conservative movement as a whole - will be implacably opposed to any significant reforms. And what would Mr. Obama do then? "I'll get on television and say Harry and Louise are lying," he says. I'm sure the lobbyists are terrified.

As health care goes, so goes the rest of the progressive agenda. Anyone who thinks that the next president can achieve real change without bitter confrontation is living in a fantasy world.

Which brings me to a big worry about Mr. Obama: in an important sense, he has in effect become the anti-change candidate.

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
1. well, worry away.
that's certainly your prerogative.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
2. This part I definitely agree with, and it makes all the difference in the world to me.
"Edwards is the only one of the three front-runners who has a universal health care plan that will lead to the single-payer kind all other civilized countries have."
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Please note the careful use of the expression "lead to"...
Thank you.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Yup!
I'd rather Kucinich... but I went with the best top-tier candidate, IMO.
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Stop Cornyn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. It's a shame how some are so quick compromise even before the negotiation has begun.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. No kidding...
ah well... we are where we are... and this year I felt I wanted to support a candidate "with a chance".

How could I have known that this time around one of the top three would become the next "no chance" candidate right out of the gate. :crazy:
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. Which is one of my biggest beefs with Obama
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Yael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
18. Economically, stopping on a dime to switch to 676 would be a disaster
Edwards' plan is to allow the for-profits to compete with the ecomomies of scale that the government can provide.

That is why he has been praised by ecomonist after economist on this as it will be natural attrition.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-17-08 05:20 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. That's nonsense
The only way to get our health care dollars to go for health care is to take them away from the insurance companies.

The privateers don't need economies of scale when they take all the healthy people (and their dollars), leaving the government to deal with the expensive sick.

To Edwards's credit, he has included clauses prohibiting cherrypicking and claims denial. But it is really stupid to pretend that this is any more "politically viable" with insurance companies that straight out single payer. Eliminate those clauses through compromise and the whole country gets stuck with the MA disaster.

Is it "politically viable" with healthy people who are insured at work and would rather not think about switching? Probably, but then there are 10 times as many who are terrified about being forced by buy insurance for whom this would be a major hit to the budget. Those people can't be subsidized unless taxes are raised substantially. The other alternative, of course, is just to use the money wasted by private insurers for that purpose.
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Czolgosz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-17-08 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #22
28. As just one issue: Do you know how many people who become unemployed overnight if we immediately
dropped the private health insurance industry?

Universal single payer public care is the goal. Jumping straight to the goal without any type of transition is not the model to achieve the goal.

The transitional phase isn't necessary because it is good; it's good because it's necessary.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-17-08 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Most of the warm bodies are in claims processing, which--
--is the ONLY value-adding part of private insurance. Guess what? If the government does the hiring of these people, it can flat out FORBID outsourcing of any function whatsoever. That would help the employment situation a lot right there. There is so much waste in the system that retraining in providing health services can be readily paid for. Jack up the pay of LPNs and home aides, and way more people would want to do it.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-17-08 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #2
24. more promising than Obama's which seem sure to be generous to pharm/insurance
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Czolgosz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-17-08 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #24
35. Generous? I'll say! A straight-out give away is more like it.
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
3. What do Clinton, Obama and Edwards all have in common regarding health care?
Answer: They're all proposing plans that involve using existing insurance companies in order to establish low cost health care for uninsured Americans.

All of them.

Please note that Michael Moore praises Edwards' plan, which "will lead to a single payer system". It doesn't start there, folks. So, if Mr. Edwards is so tough on the insurance companies, as Michael Moore claims, why would they elect to work with him to establish such a program rather than lobbying like hell to fight him? We have these insurance companies. They are rich. They are powerful. If we want to get health insurance for all Americans, we're going to have to work with them. But if you all want to hold out for the years it would take to deliver that perfect plan that delivers both health care to all and a resounding "fuck you" to corporate America, fine. Just do me a favor and at least think of the Americans who are suffering from lack of care in the meantime.
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Stop Cornyn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Actually, Edwards' plan is the only one with non-profit government run Health Care Markets which
allow private for-profit health insurers to compete against a public non-profit Medicare based alternative but MOST SIGNIFICANTLY these non-profit Health Care Markets also REQUIRE private for-profit health insurers to compete against a public non-profit Medicare based alternative.

This is where Edwards plan leads to single payer, and it is a feature all the other plans lack.
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. I've read Edwards' plan...
Which is why I think that the insurance companies will do everything in their power to sink it. And will probably succeed.

Obama and Clinton's plans seem to me to be more of a compromise that the insurance companies may suck up and accept. Some form of government-subsidized healthcare is inevitable in this country. I'm all for single payer, but I'm willing to accept "some form" for right now, as long as it gets people insured.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. They're going to fight like hell against any change at all.
Might as well try to get the most we can, and compromise from there... rather than going into the negotiations already having given up as much as we can stomach, no?
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. The sad thing that has occurred to me...
Is that maybe both Clinton and Obama already think that what they're asking is a lot. Maybe they think that the sorts of programs they're offering are currently "beyond negotiation".

I honestly have no idea what we'll end up with. It might take a while to end up with anything. They might have to repeal the tax cuts for $250,000 and over and start trying to bank the money. Maybe only when there's a real threat of a single payer system will the insurance companies be willing to negotiate at all. They have so much money and such a lock on this system that it's disgusting.
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Stop Cornyn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Obama's not hardly asking for anything; his health care plan does for private insurance what Bush
Edited on Wed Jan-16-08 07:19 PM by Stop Cornyn
did for pharmaceutical companies with his Medicare drug scheme.
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Do explain. Because I don't read it that way.
And, if possible, contrast to Hillary's plan.

Thanks.
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Yael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. HRC's plan is a mirror of Mitt Romneys MA plan
Requiring everyone to purchase from the insurance industry and building in annual rate increases to boot.

Edwards' plan is to add a government-backed option and health-care markets so that people can choose the public or multi-facet private plan, with the end goal of having everyone choose to leave Big Insurance.

Where she is enabling insurance companies to keep on keeping on (with a captive audience), he is introducing the concepts of collective bargaining and economies of scale.
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Yael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. Thats the beauty of it
He is ADDING to the system, not taking away from it -- and letting the people decide.

They are on the defensive on this from the get.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-17-08 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #19
30. I hope more people take a close look at these details...
and decide to support John. :)
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
11. "This is Roosevelt/Truman kind of talk"
That is exactly what we need.
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Stop Cornyn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. AMEN!
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-17-08 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
32. Yup...
:thumbsup:

:kick:
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Yael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
17. Thanks for this
K&R
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ShadesOfGrey Donating Member (646 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-16-08 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
21. Excellent comparison! k&r

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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-17-08 05:28 AM
Response to Original message
23. Obama again today talked about giving the drug and insur. a seat at the table
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Bodhi BloodWave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-17-08 06:13 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. They like everybody else is entitled to a seat
Edited on Thu Jan-17-08 06:14 AM by Bodhi BloodWave
That is however all they are entitled to(all sides after all have a right to be heard, that does not mean their words will hold any weight)
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Stop Cornyn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-17-08 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #26
31. Obama and Hillary give the insurance companies more than a "seat" -- they give them a veto.
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Bodhi BloodWave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-17-08 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Point me to where Obama has said he would give them a Veto
If you can't I'm calling BS
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-17-08 05:59 AM
Response to Original message
25. recommend
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-17-08 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #25
33. Thanks!
:kick:
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Czolgosz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-17-08 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
27. Kick & Recommend
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