If if it's Hillary vs. McCain, McCain will be seen as the straight-talker and Hillary-not so much.

[jenmito]

With McCain's perceived "straight talk" and Hillary's non-answers, not to mention both voted for the IWR, calling her (and Bill's) judgement into question, as well as McCain's appeal to Independent, McCain will beat her. But if it were Obama vs. McCain, Obama would be seen as the guy who had the judgement to be against the war from the beginning, as an honest person, as someone who can bring real change, and compared to McCain, energetic, fresh, and ready to go.

[calmblueocean]

1. In a nutshell, that's the whole 08 campaign. You got it.

Hillary loses to McCain, Obama beats McCain. That's the way I see it, and I haven't been convinced otherwise yet.

[bellasgrams]

3. I don't think McCain can win.

He's to old, a war-monger, sees us in Iraq for 100 years, to unstable.

[Yael]

10. Ask a republican this and get back to me:

Which would you choose -- ending the war in Iraq or stopping an HRC presidency?

75% of the country may be against the war, but don't kid yourself on where that falls on a lot of people's priority lists.

[Fabio]

23. I think his poor large audience public speaking

(evidence NH) and generally poor health will do him in. But he definately poses serious threats to any of our candidates. Besides, while the media might by into the meme that the surge is working, political progress in iraq (or lack thereof) could change the nature of the race away from Mccain.

[gdaerin]

78. are you kidding? They all went gaga over Bush, they thought his

speaking problems were endearing.

[movonne]

26. I agree...I don't think mccain can win...

[jenmito]

11. Thanks...

Yup. :hi:

[Araxen]

21. Yup

I know myself if it comes down to Hilary vs McCain. I'll be voting for McCain in November. I'll be voting for Obama in the Illinois primary.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

35. You're voting for McCain, so why are you here?

:shrug:

MKJ

[Renew Deal]

2. Hillary will also lose the "experience" argument that she's running on.

She's setting herself up.

[jenmito]

14. Exactly.

Add that to the history of the Clintons vs. the Repubs., her own words that "a president shouldn't say what they think," and you have McCain in the WH.

[NoPasaran]

4. Could y'all try to restrain yourselves from campaigning

Could y'all try to restrain yourselves from campaigning for "I'll Stay In Iraq For A Million Years" McCain until the bad guys actually nominate the sumbitch?

[jenmito]

17. That's not what I'm doing. I'm simply pointing out what will happen if Hillary's our nominee before

it's too late and she IS our nominee.

[RichGirl]

45. How kind of you to let the rest of us...

know what will happen in the future. Since you apparently have a state-of-the-art crystal ball...can you also tell me if there is any romance ahead for me.

[jenmito]

47. Sure...

Yes, romance is in your future, and it will be great for about 6 months, then you'll find out he's not who you thought he was. ;-)

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

19. No kidding. This be afraid of McCain meme is getting a bit old here, kind of like him.

He will also look like a doddering old man next to a bright eyed, fired up, smart woman.

MKJ

[jenmito]

22. Why is everything people don't like to hear a "meme"? It's a fact...

and compared to the Clintons, he won't look so old. He'll actually look newer than the Clintons being back in the WH.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

24. If it turns out to be so, we will chat after the first debate. Deal?

Bookmarked for further discussion. Since neither of us can see the future. MKJ

on edit, I mean IF they both end up being their party's nominee. Since you call your speculation "fact", we'll see if you're competely right about this.

[jenmito]

31. Deal.

Bookmark away!

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

33. Done. Now THAT'S the way to agree to disagree about pure speculation!

Put your money where you mouth is. Good for you for being willing to absolutely say right before Super Tuesday that the two candidates will DEFINITELY be McCain and Clinton AND that he will look like a straight talking "young" guy were he to debate with Sen. Clinton.

My speculation is that IF those are the two candidates (if it's any other candidate R or D, that means the initial speculative premise was incorrect to begin with and negates further discussion), Sen. Clinton will easily manage the geriatric, worn out from campaigning McCain and be declared the winner of debate #1.

DEAL! :toast: MKJ

[jenmito]

42. Ummm...

I said IF it's Hillary vs. McCain then the rest of my post would be true. I never said it WILL be McCain vs. Hillary. Unless you can show me otherwise...

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

44. True, changed it from "your" to "the initial speculative premise".

How's that?

MKJ

[jenmito]

48. K. Bring it on.

:toast:

[girl gone mad]

70. No kidding.

How is this helping Obama?

[JDPriestly]

5. If it's McCain v. Obama, McCain will be viewed as experienced

mature and wise, Obama will be viewed as inexperienced, immature and foolish.

Edwards is the only candidate who can beat McCain -- and every other Republican.

[jenmito]

18. No. McCain will be viewed as old and a war monger without good judgement.

Obama will be viewed as young and yet wise with the ability to inspire the nation and raise our standing in the world.

[JDPriestly]

41. You hope.

McCain will win. Democrats are willing to take a chance on Obama, but who else will?

[jenmito]

52. It's more than hope. It's been shown in poll after poll...

Independents and even some Repubs. will be HAPPY to "take a chance" on Obama.

[Jai4WKC08]

51. That's wishful thinking

If the Repubs play the fear card, especially if there's a terrorist attack (real or otherwise), voters will go for the experience.

Do you remember in 2003/04, all the polls showed that people (mostly Democrats) cared about jobs, healthcare and education over Iraq? I even remember one debate where Clark was asked why he was running as a result. But by the time November rolled around, it was Iraq, the war on terror and national security that decided the election. It won't be any different this time.

I'm not sure Hillary can beat McCain. I'm almost certain Obama can't.

[jenmito]

53. I disagree...

People are TIRED of the fear card played by Repubs. and Hillary.

I'm not sure Hillary can beat McCain. I AM sure OBAMA can beat him.

[Jai4WKC08]

67. Well, never argue with an article of faith, I always say n/t

[mtnsnake]

6. Hillary would crush McCain, while McCain would take Obama to school

With no foreign policy experience, Obama would get crushed by McCain. Hillary's toughest foe would be someone like Romney, although I think she'd kick his sorry ass, too.

Obama would get raked over the coals by the rightwing Republican war machine, IMO.

[HughMoran]

13. I feel more like you on this

I like both candidates, but Hillary's toughness and ability to see through the propaganda and fire back make me think she'll do just fine against any Republican. It's not as if the South or Republicans were going to vote for a Dem anyway. And as much as she "motivates" Republicans, she doubly motivates women to put down the misogynist party.

[calmblueocean]

16. How do you figure that?

Everyone knows this war has been a disaster and was ill-conceived from the get-go. Yet "Mr. Experience" McCain thought going in was great, and Obama didn't. It's going to be hard to spin that away.

[mtnsnake]

27. Because we'll still be at war and fearing those terrorist are hiding outside our bedrooms

ready to attack at the first sign of weakness. The rightwing propaganda machine will make mincemeat out of Obama during a time of war.

[calmblueocean]

30. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one

I think Hillary is the one that'll be destroyed by the right wing smear machine. They're aching for her to be nominated to they can goose their lazy, dissatisfied Republican base with tawdry tales of the Clinton years. I don't think they know what to do with Barack. They'll try, sure, but Obama simply doesn't have the baggage that Clinton does as a candidate.

[jenmito]

20. Yeah, right...

It's Obama who would take McCain to school, pointing out how invading Iraq made us less safe and how he predicted exactly what would happen BEFORE we went in.

[mtnsnake]

25. Yeah, I can just picture Obama trying to convince all the scardy cats he'll protect them better

than McCain will during a time when we'll still be at war. Gimme a break.

[jenmito]

32. Yes. Not only will he go after those who attacked us and not start new wars, he'll set

McCain straight on why it was wrong to invade Iraq in the first place. Hillary doesn't have any room to speak out the way Obama does. She was suckered by Bush OR she voted for it for political reasons. Which is worse-I don't know.

[ShadowLiberal]

80. How would she crush McCain?

Explain how Hillary could 'crush' McCain so easily like you describe. Others put up a very convincing arguement for why all of Hillary's strengths won't work against McCain.

[ursi]

7. I don't know ...alot of people are still worried about that IWR vote ...and Iran

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h3G-lMZxjo

[jenmito]

29. Exactly. Which is why Obama would be the best person to be president.

Hillary voted for the Kyl/Lieberman bill and McCain's a hawk, too.

[Yael]

8. And if they bring up integrity, shes going down in flames.

I am so sickened by the first-hand accounts yesterday from the Nevada causus sites that I could spit nails.

[jenmito]

34. Yup. n/t

[HughMoran]

9. ...says the hardcore Obama supporter

I wish I could take your analysis seriously, but your bias shows day after day in your threads started here in GDP :shrug:

[jenmito]

36. ...says the HughMoran

You choose not to take my analysis seriously, but you're just closing your eyes to the truth.

[HughMoran]

40. I commented here...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4130143&mesg_id=4130358

I disagree :shrug:

[jenmito]

46. I saw that...

and you're wrong in your disagreement. :D

[HughMoran]

49. I may be

It's just an opinion :P

[jenmito]

54. I agree...

that you may be wrong. :P

[still_one]

12. how will she justify her trip to Iraq with mccain

when they both said good progress was being made?
for the first 6 years of the bush presidecy she effectively supported the war, now it is different

[question everything]

15. Except that for many voters it will be time for a change

to kick the Republicans out and they won't bother with details.

[Maven]

28. Nah. McCain can be easily painted as Bush Redux (because he is)

and voters will run screaming. They'll run from his position on the war alone.

[jenmito]

38. Nah. He's still seen as a "straight-talker" who went against Bush on some things re: the war and

torture. He's more against torture than Hillsry is.

[Auntie Bush]

57. Got a link for the self assured bullsh** you toss across this board 24/7?

Where'd you get that idea? Scoop it off the bathroom floor?
Sorry, I couldn't resist that. Must have been in the stall next to you. :rofl:

[jenmito]

59. What specifically would y ou like a link for?

There could be many posts I've made "24/7." :shrug:

[Auntie Bush]

62. How about your post that I answered.

Where did you get the idea that McCain was more against torture than Hillary? She was just as against it as he was...only he took it more personally, and got more air time as he was actually tortured and she wasn't. That made him have a more emotional response than Hillary. Doesn't mean he was more against it than she was and that comment implied she wasn't totally against torture. That was just ANOTHER example of your typical unfair bias posts regarding Hillary.

[jenmito]

64. OK, here ya go:

"Mrs. Clinton refused, however, to sign an anti-torture pledge that a liberal group, the American Freedom Campaign, had asked the presidential candidates to embrace.

All of the other Democratic candidates had either signed the pledge or, in the case of former Senator John Edwards and Mrs. Clinton, foregone the pledge while committing to an anti-torture position in letters to the group.

Mrs. Clinton’s position on torture has been under scrutiny since last week, when, in a Democratic presidential debate, she said torture “cannot be American policy, period.” She told the New York Daily News last year that she was open to a narrow exception to a torture ban to interrogate a terrorist and prevent “something imminent.”

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/05/torture-is-torture/

[Auntie Bush]

81. she said torture “cannot be American policy, period.”

I repeat...Can't be American POLICY! And it won't be in her administration. Why the hell should she take some pledge that someone offered. Presidents shouldn't take pledges...that's stupid. That's like complaining that she wouldn't take a pledge not to cut something so then accuse her of being a flip flopper, should she need to in the unknown future...circumstances could change. She isn't a prophet...so she left the door open. I think that was smart and I admire her courage and strength and that took real courage. Just makes me more sure of her presidential ability.

Also, believe you me...McCain would flip-flop on that issue if it was grave enough to made Hillary use that tactic. McCain would too. He was just pandering for vet votes and taking advantage of his own personal situation and proving he was a maverick. It really didn't take courage...the people in this country don't believe in torture...not even most non-political Rethugs.

Anyway, HILLARY DOESN'T BELIEVE IN TORTURE! But you go on and believe what you want because bashing Hillary obviously gives you pleasure. And you sure do indulge yourself in pleasure.

[jenmito]

83. More triangulation. As the article states,

She told the New York Daily News last year that she was open to a narrow exception to a torture ban to interrogate a terrorist and prevent “something imminent.”

And I don't believe McCain WOULD flip-flop on this issue since he, unlike Hillary, has been tortured! Hillary, once again, is trying to look "tough on terror" to appeal to the hawks and then moral to appeal to the people with sense. Typical Hillary.

[F.Gordon]

37. "Bomb Bomb Iran"

McCain is batshit crazy. But yea.. "straight talk". Whatever.
:eyes:

[jenmito]

39. He MEANT it when he sang that. Sad but true...

and Hillary voted for the IWR as well as the Kyl/Lieberman bill.

[F.Gordon]

43. Did he?

I'll take your word on that. I still think he's batshit crazy.

.."make it 100 years"..

If McCain goes batshit crazy talkin' with his "base" can you imagine the kind of shit that will come out of his puss when he actually has to run for prez?

Oh, and did you change the focus of your post? My bad. I thought it was about "straight talk" and "non answers".
:hi:

[jenmito]

50. By the way he continues to talk about it, I'd say yes...

That doesn't mean he's NOT crazy. But he is still seen as saying what he means and meaning what he says, unlike Hillary, who voted for something then said she wouldn't have voted that way, who voted for a bill and saying she was glad it didn't pass, and on and on.

Nope, didn't change the focus at all. Conversations happen and evolve.

[F.Gordon]

55. I don't have any idea what Hillary did a "non answer" on

I took your post to be defending McCain and not-so-much likin' Hillary. I'll leave the Hillary Bashing to those better versed and for those that enjoy it.

I'm just sayin' McCain is batshit crazy and is far from being a "straight talker".

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
:hi:

[jenmito]

56. If you've seen any of the debates, especially the one in Philly, you'd know

that she says lots of things which comes out being no answer at all. For example, when asked about the drivers' licenses for illegal immigrants. She tried to please everybody by saying she thought Spitzer's idea was a good one, but then she said she never said she thought it was a good idea, then she said it was a good idea again.

I was NOT defending McCain. I was talking about his perceived straight talk. I never said he's sane. But he calls it as he sees it, or at least it's perceived that way, while Hillary is seen as a triangulating politician like her husband.

[F.Gordon]

58. I haven't followed the debates

I would get all my news from THE Daily Show. But... I do remember something about the Driver's License thing. Didn't strike me as being that significant of a thing but I confess.. don't know all the details surrounding it. Nor do I really care.

How many "debates" were there? Like.... 2,000? I'm sure all the candidates have said something that got all muddled like and twisted at least once.

If some people think McCain is a "straight talker". So be it. I don't see how Clinton, Obama, or Edwards would have any problem dealing with the batshit crazy mofo McCain.

Can I be excused now? I have to go potty.
:hi:

[Perry Logan]

60. Yea, but normal people do not perceive Hillary with the jaundiced eye of anti-Hillary types.

[jenmito]

61. Sorry, but there are MANY normal people who dislike Hillary enormously.

[mrmx9]

63. Agreed - about half the American population!

[jenmito]

65. Yup! Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[Perry Logan]

66. It's a common delusion of Clinton haters that the whole world shares their pathology.

[jenmito]

72. No. Polls show she has about 50% unfavorables. n/t

[angie_love]

74. lol

[FunkyLeprechaun]

68. That's what I am afraid what will happen

Hillary turns off enough centrist voters to drive them to McCain. Obama appeals to both the Democrats and ex-Republicans. I am getting sick of people saying, "Oh look he appeals to the Republicans! That's a good reason not to vote for him!" Ugh.

I really studied my candidates before settling on Obama and I think he's the epitome of change and he also really truly represents America and its ideals.

At first, I supported Edwards (I really wanted Gore to run) but I changed to Obama later.

You are absolutely right though.

[creeksneakers2]

69. Wingnuts won't show up to vote for McCain

For one thing, he doesn't hate Mexicans enough.

[Metric System]

71. Whoa, wait a minute, McCain's a straight talker?

Really?!? Why are you buying into that propaganda? If anything, he's a flip-flopper. He's pandering to the Republican base in this election and is not running as the "maverick" like he did in 2000. Besides all that he can't even deliver a speech without a teleprompter or note cards. That was mentioned today on CNN. CNN also reported that his speechwriter is always nearby. In my mind, that's not exactly someone who shoots from the hip and is a "straight talker."

At least all three of our candidates could speak convincingly if the teleprompter malfunctioned or a wind blew the note cards away. One final anecdote about McCain, apparently he was giving a stump speech a few days ago and he told the crowd that he's always been against social security for veterans. The crowd gasped and then, after looking at his note cards, McCain corrected himself by saying he was always against social security for illegal immigrants. Yeah, what a straight talker.

[Skittles]

76. whoa

if true, McCain sounds like he is losing his marbles

[bullwinkle428]

77. That is FREAKING HILARIOUS!!! Now it's turning into

a virtual wet dream of mine that he becomes the nominee - just imagine this guy in the debates!!

[jenmito]

84. McCain's PERCEIVED as a straight-talker. Hillary is not. n/t

[LittleBlue]

73. You nailed it. "Straight Talk Express" vs. "Triangulator"

Regardless of how inaccurate that comparison is, Tweety will be at it EVERY NIGHT :puke:

[jenmito]

85. Thanks...

I'm sure it will be used by MANY people, including Independents who respect McCain.

[Auntie Bush]

75. If it's Hillary vs. McCain

then Hillary will seem like a peace-nic and Mccain will seem like a bushbot identical twin. So I think Hillary wins that one.

By the way...jenmito...when was the last time you advocated for your own candidate instead of attacking Hillary every chance you get? Never?

[gdaerin]

79. What you're describing is the way Dems would see it

obviously Hillary would get Most of the dem. base, but she'd need the independants

[Robbins]

82. Reality

I hate to have to be the one to bear reality but every poll shows Mccain beating Hillary.Now It would still be a tough race for Obama but he starts out tied with Mccain.Mccain Is viewed as a
straight talker.I know that Is BS but that Is what people will say.Republicans want to run against
Hillary.Mccain would win Independents.Mccain has the poential for crossover Democrat votes.Hillary
can be viewed as a flipflopper.Mccain can say he Is consisent on Iraq while she Isn't,and will say
he was among the first to critice the war as It was being handled.Before 2007 Hillary was against
any timetable to get out of Iraq.Mccain Is viewed as honest,and the events In Nevada could be used
against her.If you want to keep him out of the white house Hillary Is a disaster.Saint rudy may be
finished after Florida and that will eave It between Mccain and Romney.Also Mccain was critical of torture.There are Instances he can spin to claim he IS different from Bush,and can bring change.
Do I believe this? Hell no but Hillary Is disliked by Independents and some Democrats It could happen.

[jenmito]

87. Thank you!

I agree! :hi:

[jenmito]

86. That's not true. He will be able to point to her IWR and K/L votes.

Do a search if you really want to know. I've advocated for Obama MANY times.