Skinner: I have another "Great" idea for a forum!!!

[Bonobo]

"The Dialectic Forum"

In the Dialectic Forum, posters will be encouraged to come on a thread, argue their postion, and then within 3 or 4 posts, arrive at a dialectic solution.

Only those people interested in learning and arriving at a solution should join.

I think it may become a source of new ideas, new alliance, friendships, greater bonds between people!

Or... it could just be another one of my sucky ideas.

What do the rest of you think? Would anyone here be interested in starting such a forum?

I don't think people here in GD and GDP are arriving at shit.

[alcibiades_mystery]

1. Most issues we discuss don't have easy solutions, and some

don't have "solutions" at all. Most involve vastly different interests, some of which might benefit from a given solution, while others might incur a cost.

This has always been the problem with a teleological view of dialectics.

Now, I'm all for more concrete and civil argumentation, and you're quite right to be arguing for that, but it shouldn't come in the guise of assumed and pre-ordained consensus.

[Bonobo]

2. At least it would be a way to get everyone with an open mind into one place.

N'est pas?

[maddiejoan]

3. Interesting concept

I would caution that the Dialectic approach to problem solving is not a valid approach.

The Hegelian dialectic of "Problem/Solution" has become more of a right-wing method of keeping thinking "inside the box".

http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/05/dialectic.htm


My personal belief is that it doesn't lead to any kind of enlightened thinking.

[Bonobo]

4. As I said above, though, it would get everyone with an open mind in one place.

[maddiejoan]

5. I prefer Socratic dialogue

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method

[alcibiades_mystery]

6. Socratic method is no less teleological than

Hegelian dialectic. Indeed, Hegelian dialectic, when read as a figure of movement in thought rather than as a predetermined movement towards totalization, is actually more liberating of ideas than the Socratic method, which always knows where it's going at the beginning, and is really just concerned with compelling agreement.

[maddiejoan]

7. I think you are confusing it with Sophistry

[alcibiades_mystery]

9. No, not at all

In fact, the Socratic method is the counter-attack against "sophistry," to the extent that Socrates (at least as Plato and other writers in antiquity would have us believe) was against rhetoric and contingency in thought. The Socratic interlocutor always knows the right answer at the beginning of the question and answer session, just as Socrates always knew where he was leading the silly sophists.

[maddiejoan]

11. Interesting

Thanks --clearly I've misunderstood the term for quite some time :)

[alcibiades_mystery]

15. Think of the way it works in law schools

The professor knows what she thinks is the right answer to the legal question. Through the question and answer session, she attempts to move the students to that answer by forcing them into very specific sorts of answers that would begin to contradict each other unless they take a very specific path.

Now, I'm not really downing the Socratic Method. It is an excellent way to teach higher order reasoning by showing how an argument can compel. We often say "That's a compelling argument," but we don't really mean it. We don't really mean that the argument is "compelling" us to do something, in the same way that a police officer might compel us to get in the car, cuffs on and all. We use the term "compelling" to mean "interesting" or "thought-provoking." But that was NOT the original meaning, nor is it the meaning for something like Socratic dialectic. There, compelling very much means "to be forced" into a certain position (by principles of non-contradiction, etc.). That is, if you claim X and Y premises, you MUST accept Z. You cannot "escape" the conclusion.

The Socratic Method is good for showing you how the hand cuffs of thought work. It is also good for slapping them on. :-)

[acmavm]

8. That's a false premise. Marx and Engles applied the Hegelian

dialetic to economics and what did they come up with? It can be applied to many situation but there is no way that you can always find a 'middle ground'.

[suston96]

13. Uh, sorry but most people don't know what you are talking about.......

Give yourself 5 minutes going through posts here and you will realize the importunity of your suggestion.

This is a hit and run paint-ball forum between people who aren't interested in reasoned discussion but rather in rabidly and aggressively supporting their candidate.

But I hope I am wrong. Good luck.

[acmavm]

16. Uh, do you have any idea of what you said? Or are you just

using words that you think sound good?

im·por·tu·nate /ɪmˈpɔrtʃənɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. urgent or persistent in solicitation, sometimes annoyingly so.
2. pertinacious, as solicitations or demands.
3. troublesome; annoying: importunate demands from the children for attention.

[suston96]

22. Importunate? "Troublesome" sounds right....

I have MW dictionary in my bookmarks and looked up the word before I used it.

I majored in Philosophy and am aware of what is intended here and I believe that a dialectic forum would be "troublesome" because such conversations are not within the grasp of regular posters. Has nothing to do with intelligence but rather with current interests.

Best bet: start the forum and see what happens. Prove me wrong.

[Bonobo]

23. great. why don't you offer to join.

[zazen]

10. or just General Discussion: Election Primaries

With some new rules about posting.

I like the dialectic idea, though it'd be nice to update it with the concept of "collaborative knowing" and/or the epistemology of care. In other words, people who might have strong positions but don't abuse each other in the process and don't see themselves in adversarial relation to the universe.

But if the main point is to tamp down the self-defeating, bitter tit for tat going on in the primary discussions, I'd just remove all discussions of primary candidates, primary issues, etc., to a PRIMARY ELECTIONS forum. Any larger discussions of battling the Republicans can remain in GD-Politics.

L, from the Research Triangle

[Bonobo]

12. You have an appropriate name.

[zazen]

17. so do you

Bonobos are highly intelligent and adaptable and seek creative solutions in challenging situations. Apparently they're recorded music with Paul McCartney and Peter Gabriel. But as a Bonobo, you already know that. : - )

They've also taken to using e-mail on their own (they saw the humans doing it and wanted in) to e-mail each other and their human friends, including several school children (I have that straight from a client at the Wild Ape Trust.)

[zazen]

18. the client was a human, not a Bonobo

[Bonobo]

19. Is that the one in Iowa? The new one?

[MethuenProgressive]

14. We'd need three forums, one each for thesis, antithesis, and synthesis.

"I don't think people here in GD and GDP are arriving at shit."
The shit they arrive at is the shit they deserve?

[rucky]

20. Yep. Too many people here are too eager to poison the well. n/t

[Bonobo]

21. But I'm serious about such a forum. Would anyone want to join? nt

[Bonobo]

24. OK. SCRATCH THAT IDEA. HOW ABOUT AN "OPEN MIND FORUM"!? eom

[Flabbergasted]

25. kick

[Bonobo]

26. Thanks. If you are interested, send an email to the Admins.