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Cliff Notes for these McClurkin/Metanoia controversies

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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 01:54 PM
Original message
Cliff Notes for these McClurkin/Metanoia controversies
Edited on Mon Jan-21-08 02:19 PM by Kurt_and_Hunter
For all the back and forth, these issues are incredibly easy to understand if one is inclined toward understanding.
Step One: Concede that if any candidate had active and accepted support within his or her campaign from the leader of a white supremacist organization it would be a one-sided issue. There would be no talk of a big tent or sophisticated persuasion.

Step Two: Visit http://www.metanoiaonline.org/about.htm and familiarize yourself with the programs offered... not mere opinions or ideas, but programs. The Metanoia ministry acts nationally, organizing gay-cure programs, dispatching gay-cure speakers.

Step Three: Ask yourself, "do I see this as meaningfully different from a white supremacist organization?"
That's all there is to it.

Many people do not see white-supremacists and gay-cure advocates as equivalent because many people believe, deep down, that race is something you are born with, and for which one must be held blameless, while GLBT people are willful, making a choice to defy convention... a choice with obvious consequences that should be anticipated by those who chose to be gay. It is common to draw a distinction between compassion for gays, since they're suffering from "sexual brokenness", and acceptance of sexual variation. ("Hate the sin, love the sinner.")

And many people see the gay-cure movement as somehow more legitimate or acceptable because it is supported by religious beliefs. This view is, however, backward. Every human evil one can think of was supported by religious convention in its day, because religious convention tends to dove-tail with societal morality. The two inform and enforce each other. The Bible says menstruating women should be put in a little hut reserved for unclean people. Nobody promotes that as a religious value because it runs so counter to the historical progress of liberalism. The Bible has no problem with slavery, but no mainstream religious people today argue for slavery despite the inarguable fact that it is part of God's plan. The Bible hasn't changed, but society has. We do not tolerate slavery these days, so religion defers to the ethics of liberal democracy.

There is only one moral-majority style "values" issue Jesus Christ really, really cared about. It is the very first pronouncement he makes in the Bible. Jesus thought that divorce is WRONG. He was a fanatic on the topic. Any even remotely Christian society would ban divorce, and consider divorce and remarriage adultery. Yet the favorite President of the most extreme Christians is Ronald Reagan, the only divorced President we have ever had!

The fact that we hear religious arguments against non-majority sexual identities merely means that society in aggregate is not yet sufficiently supportive of the human rights of GLBT people to shout down the religious argument, in the way religious arguments for slavery or second-class status for women have been shouted down.

Recognizing the validity of the sexual identity component of human rights is merely to concede the humanity of GLBT people; to hold that people are blameless for their sexual identity, and that variation in sexual identity is not intrinsically wicked. Recognizing the legitimacy of human rights for gay people is not the same as favoring same-sex marriage as a Democratic Party platform plank in 2008. The civil rights movement didn't end with the recognition that people of all races are human beings entitled to the same rights. It BEGAN with that recognition. After enough people recognize what it right, then a political process follows.

But outfits like Metanoia Ministries reject the core human integrity of the sexual identity of all non-heterosexual people. The disease model of homosexuality is like saying black people are black because they are too willful and sinful to chose to be white. It is, in its way, the most pernicious anti-minority movement yet devised, in that it holds the individual personally responsible for his differences, and dangles false-hope that he may elevate himself to majority status through sufficient self-denial. It is like telling African-Americans, "you're not black, you just need to wash your face harder."

So please do not defend this stuff, or trivialize it by equating the gay-cure movement with DOMA in tit-for-tat fashion. DOMA is discriminatory. The gay-cure movement is quasi-genocidal. DOMA is about the rights of GLBT people in society. The gay-cure movement is a challenge of the right of GLBT people to EXIST.

The best analogy for the gay-cure movement is the "back to Africa movement." Rather than arguing about relative rights within society, it suggests that society should be, one way or another, entirely free of the minority group in question.
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meegbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. w00t!
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terrya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
2. I'm pleased to be the first to recommend this.
Thank you.
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meegbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. I was first, thank you very much ...
:P
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terrya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. OK!
I'll be the second then. :-)
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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
3. Well put!!
:applause:
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
4. Off to the greatest page 'wid ya
n/t
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. I take pride in those rare posts with more recs than replies
it suggests one didn't leave anything important out, and that no one is eager to offer a refutation.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. How can they reply to it?
You shut them down.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. But they still start threads arguing their position side-ways.
What they will not do is explain why a movement dedicated to eradicating homosexuality as a human trait is not identity genocide.

One analogy I can think of is the forced conversion of Jews in late 15th century Spain. The Spanish inquisition was primarily a search for secret Jews, not Christian heretics. People were examined for Jewish behaviors... sniched out for working on Sunday, or not working on Saturday, or suspisciously kosher cooking.

It was not a genocide of Jews as an ethnic group, but a genocide of Judaism as a cultural identity. (And a mass murder and mass deportation of Jews, though not quite a physical genocide insofar as they retained an option to live via exile or denial of their culture and religion.)
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Vanje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
5. Like Kurt_and_Hunter said nt
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
6. Damn you for bringing up facts, and the like.
All you do is muddy the waters.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
9. Kick
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Maven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
10. Proud to recommend.
K/R
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Well, Harvey, as Newton said, "I stand on the shoulders of giants"
Thanks for bringing Metanoia to everyone's attention last night
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
12. Don't miss this part:
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
13. I hope everyone reads this
n/t
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. What is it that makes people defend this stuff...
It's just like last time, with people getting themselves in deeper and deeper with twisted rationales for defending the indefensible.

It's scary!

All candidates do indefensible things in politics.

But the rationalization and pretending it's really the coolest thing that ever happened is appalling.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. the constant comparisons between "ex-gay" torture and
DADT and DOMA is offensive, intolerable partisan idiocy.

And 90% of the people doing it don't know the history of DOMA or DADT and don't care. They just use it as a political talking poing.
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Duncan Grant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
18. Kick: Back to page 1 with you.
:kick:
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terrya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. I'd recommend this again if I could.
Edited on Mon Jan-21-08 05:47 PM by terrya
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hulklogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
20. Insightful and important
happy to kick
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racaulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
22. Beautiful post!
And I think you really got to the heart of the issue. Thank you!

Kicked, recommended, and bookmarked!

:applause:
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
23. K&R
Telling the truth as always, my friend.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
24. Kick
n/t
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Politicub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
25. Fantastic post
You said it so much better than I have been able to. The ex-gay movement seeks to exterminate gay identity - it is far and beyond garden variety homophobia.
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