I've never had a lot of respect for Bill Clinton, but Marc Rich killed

[cali]

any respect I ever had. From the first time I saw him in NH 15 years ago, I saw him as a man with a ton of charm and smarts, but that was it. I was really turned off by the whole Gennifer Flowers theater thing with Hill playing her "Stand by your man" role. I was glad he got elected. I thought he did a fair job. Didn't like his constant centrism and triangulating. Didn't like Welfare reform or NAFTA, but I thought he was a masterful politician who often managed to keep his political enemies off balance.

Than came Monica. And I was disgusted. What he did was no different than a professor screwing a student. It was unethical and pathological. And he couldn't tell the truth. He just had to lie about it. Not to mention the whole Paula Jones mess.

But it was the Marc Rich pardon that told me what I'd long suspected: Clinton was for sale. Why pardon Rich, a truely reprehensible criminal? Donations and large donations. When did he do it? Hours before leaving office. It was arrogant and it was cheap. Presidential pardons shouldn't be about getting people off the hook who pay for the privilege.

So don't lecture me about how I should respect Bill Clinton. He's done enough to earn my disrespect.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Rich

[babylonsister]

1. And never forget, according to Hillary, she knew nothing about Rich

and was never informed or consulted about his pardon, because she told Russert that, and I believe her. :eyes:

[cali]

2. oh, of course she didn't

she was never involved with anything but serving tea and entertaining at the White House.

[Debi]

10. Well, execpt for when she was the assistant-president

and gaining foreign policy experience and giving the President advice on "many many subjects"

[ray of light]

51. Important! Rich was a named figure in both IranContra and BCCI's operations

and that Bill HAD to know he was pardoning another operative for Poppy Bush's illegal
dealings.
http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2008/1/22/16257/1860/8#c8

Kerry's BCCI Report in Dec 1992 -List of twenty outstanding matters to be investigated

[DJ13]

5. "And never forget, according to Hillary, she knew nothing about Rich"

She didnt know anything, just cashed his wifes large checks towards her first Senate run without asking questions.

Nothing to see, keep moving.........

[leveymg]

19. Oh, Hillary never benefited one dime from the Rich family or their friends. Sure.

Let's see, TIME Magazine was simply making things up when it printed this chronology of the Rich pardon: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,99831-1,00.html

DEC. 15 Senator-elect Hillary Clinton agrees to an $8 million deal for her memoirs.

DEC. 20 At a White House event featuring Barbra Streisand, Rich's ex-wife Denise takes Clinton aside to plead Rich's case. In recent years, Denise has contributed nearly $1 million to the Democratic Party and its candidates, $70,000 to Hillary's Senate campaign, $450,000 to the Clinton library and $10,000 to Clinton's legal defense fund.

DEC. 22 Clinton grants his first batch of pardons to 62 people, including former Representative Dan Rostenkowski, convicted of misuse of public funds.

DEC. 24 The New York Times' Maureen Dowd reveals Hillary's "secret shower" thrown by friends and donors. The Clintons later disclose $190,027 worth of gifts from supporters -- including coffee tables and chairs from Denise Rich, valued at $7,375, and a dining table from Beth Dozoretz, the wealthy former finance chair of the Democratic National Committee and close friend of Bill Clinton's.

DEC. 25 Quinn e-mails colleagues, "The greatest danger lies with the lawyers . I have worked them hard, and I am hopeful that E. Holder will be helpful to us." Eric Holder, the Deputy Attorney General, is the only Justice Department official who knows about the pardon application.

DEC. 26 Rich lawyer Robert Fink e-mails colleagues, "Frankly, I think we benefit from not having the existence of the petition known."

DEC. 28 After Rich's lawyers toy with the idea of enlisting the help of Hillary Clinton or New York Senator Chuck Schumer, Denise Rich slams the plan. According to a Quinn e-mail, a "friend" advises Denise "not to discuss in front of HRC."

DEC. 30 Quinn asks colleagues whether Leah Rabin, widow of the slain Israeli Prime Minister, might help. Avner Azulay, Rich's point man in Israel, responds, "Not a bad idea. The problem is how do we contact her? She died last November."

JAN. 3 Hillary Clinton is sworn into the Senate, which prohibits the receipt of any gift worth more than $50.

JAN. 4 Azulay sends an e-mail to Quinn suggesting that a pardon for Rich might make it easier for Israeli officials to accept the rejection of a pardon for jailed Israeli spy Jonathan Pollard ("one more reason to say yes to MR").

The White House begins shipping furniture and other gifts to the Clinton home in Chappaqua, N.Y. When the gifts come to light in February, the Clintons will pay for $86,000 worth of them and return $28,000 worth of furnishings that are deemed White House property.

[babylonsister]

32. Great, 'telling' link-thanks! nt

[Cha]

43. hilary pleading ignorance again? How

much is there that she doesn't know about?

[babylonsister]

47. She knew Nothing, NOTHING!

That's what she told Russert so he couldn't do any follow-up w/o claiming she wasn't telling the truth. Pretty savvy of her, no? :think:

[Cha]

50. The clintons just think they're savvy with all the lies.

Be nice to have a president whose career wasn't built on lies and coverups, que no?

[TwilightGardener]

3. There's just too much material here, and it will all be regurgitated, and probably

some NEW stuff, too, if she's the nominee. Oh Lordy. So, so tired of this family.

[Konza]

11. "Pardongate" alone is a couple weeks of attack ads in fall

I'm sure the rethugs will also mention the Puerto Rican terrorist group FALN pardons in order to paint Hillary as "soft on terror".
They only killed 16 Americans, some law enforcement folks, and seriously maimed others in a series of bombings. Clinton's pardon of these folks was condemned across the board as unconscionable as the US Senate voted to condemn the FALN pardons by a vote of 95-2. The House joined in by registering it's disgust with a 311-41 vote.

Get ready for a long, long campaign.

[cali]

15. You should make your post an OP n/t

[GoldieAZ49]

33. Long and UGLY

The Clintons last minute pardons were covered and resoundingly rejected on both sides of the isle, but there was nothing that could be done about it.

If Hillary is the nominee, they will start with the pardons and go from there. All the 'passes' on getting OBL, pardon of terrorist groups, following the money and on and on ad nausem. All 35 years of "experience".

If they go down the Bill and his sexual escapades road...I don't think Hillary will keep many women voters. It will show her riding Bills coattails while his fly is open, just for political power.

Yes the dirty politics of the Clintons will come home to roost.

Come to think of it, it may not be LONG campaign at all. It could be over very quickly.

[On the Road]

4. As Far as Being a Criminal,

The tax practice Rich was prosecuted for was eventually judged to be legal. While Rich does not seem to be a pleasant person, it's not clear to me his criminal status was warranted. He left the country because he thought federal prosecutors were out to get him; his partner stayed and fought the charges and won. Even Scooter Libby had to admit as much under questioning.

I heard it said at the time that a number of Clinton's pardons may have had to do with what he judged to be witch hunts, and that this was one of them.

[cali]

6. Really, that's not what the sources I've read say.

Provide links.

[On the Road]

13. My Source Was C-SPAN Radio

I did not get the beginning of the piece, but it was a proceeding on Marc Rich's alleged crime. Scooter Libby supported the conviction, but under cross-examination he was forced to concede that "no crime was committed."

Sorry if that's not specific enough for you, but it was about seven years ago.

[H2O Man]

29. Libby?

You might want to check that. Libby played a role, but I do not think it is what you appear to believe.

[babylonsister]

31. Wasn't Libby Rich's attorney? nt

[H2O Man]

34. Yes.

(I had posted this below. It is not clear if everyone is aware of that.)

[babylonsister]

38. Thanks. I hadn't seen that. Things that make you go hmmm. nt

[mod mom]

7. Rich-not just tax evasion:

But tax evasion was just the final piece of the Rich indictment.

Rich was also charged with a complex oil scam that exploited America’s energy crisis in the early ’80s. The 65-count indictment claimed he had secretly bought up millions of barrels of Texas crude oil then under strict price controls and relabeled the oil as decontrolled supplies, ultimately selling it on the open market for huge profits — reportedly $100 million.

And while 52 Americans were held hostage in Iran, Rich’s company allegedly made another fortune by trading with the Ayatollah Khomeini’s regime in violation of a strict American trade embargo.

Rich and his partner were then charged with failing to pay U.S. taxes on the profits.

-snip

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3071886

[On the Road]

24. I Can't Speak to the Relabeling

I thought the pardon was for the tax evasion charge.

What Rich did in the Iran dealings was AFAIK very similar to what Cheney did with Halliburton: evade the embargo by conducting business indirectly through off-shore entities. Perhaps both should be convicted of the same thing -- don't know the legal technicalities. I never cared for the Iran embargo in the first place, so it fails to elicit moral outrage on my part.

The OP is disgusted with Clinton because it was seen as a clear cut case of money for pardon. I doubt it's that simple. The intent was to show that Clinton was looking at the specifics of the case, and IMO was not simply selling out to the highest bidder.

A lot was also made of the fact that Rich's ex-wife gave something like $400k to Clinton before the pardon. The implication was that a large check was cut followed by a pardon, which suggests bribery. In fact, the money in several smaller amounts over a period of time. The timing is important in accusations of bribery.

Look, I'm sure that Clinton was more open to pardoning someone who played a role in IP negotiations, especially when proposed by a major contributor. I don't know that there's anything unusual about that in today's political environment, and a lot of people are justly upset by it. But the accusation was of a completely unwarranted pardon of a criminal motivated by money. That is how Republicans tried to frame it at the time, and why Scooter Libby was involved. But there is a lot more to it than that and I don't beleive that is an accurate characterization.

[H2O Man]

30. Libby

was Marc Rich's principal attorney in the case.

[cobalt1999]

8. The books I've read on him, paint a far different picture.

I supported Bill and I support Hillary, but the Rich pardon is inexcusable.

[soleft]

12. I thought Rich played a role in possible Palestinian peace deal

And that Rich's pardon was payback for his keeping a possible deal viable.

Here's a link

http://archive.salon.com/news/col/cona/2001/02/13/rich/index.html

[Captain Hilts]

21. Correct. nt

[HeraldSquare212]

9. What about Jeffrey Epstein? Bill had a personal and business relationship with him

after he left office. That hasn't come up yet in the media. Vetted? Only for pre-2001 things. There's much more where that came from.

[robbedvoter]

14. That was a bushco lame attempt to raise his approval by killing Bill's

There was nothing wrong with this pardon - but I am now waiting for Airforce 1gate, officegate and all the other Bush made fabrications about the Clintons.

[cali]

16. LOL!

There was everything wrong with pardoning a white collar criminal who had given generously to Bill and HIll. It had zip to do with bushco. Bill did it all by his little self.

[robbedvoter]

18. No there wasn't - or they would have canceled it somehow, punished Bill somehow

Just echo chambers blistering and innuendos - no legal consequences - as no wrongdoing was found. By very partisan investigators.
The pardon contained the obligation for Rich to pay civil damages to US - it merely absolved him of incarceration. Forgot the crime now some white collar corruption - nothing violent. He certainly didn't pardon rapists like the Huckster - yet DU is suddenly more outraged of it than anything Bush ever did.
I defended it sucessfuly at the time - but my archive went bye bye.
I remember bush declasifying international conversations Clinton had - putting them out there for outrage - went like a lead balloon. the quid pro quo thinghy was too tenuous.

[cali]

23. Your entire post is absurd.

Incoming presidents cannot cancel the pardons of their predecessors and DU is certainly not more outraged about this than bushco. Furthermore, he was a white collar criminal who was implicated in very ugly stuff.

[MollieBradford]

40. those of us who were actual democrats now

and in the 90s and were paying attention know better. The Rich pardon was proper. It was for the tax evasion conviction. Clinton pardoned Rich because a lot of businesses where doing the same thing, creating overseas entities that did business with countries where we had embargoes. Cheney was doing the same thing BTW and was never prosecuted. All of the other companies prosecuted where held up in civil courts. However there was an ambitious prosecutor in NYC who wanted a big case he could use to promote his political ambitions. So he went on a witch hunt against Rich. Do you know who that was? Ten points if you do.
So Clinton felt the prosecution of Rich on this matter was a witch hunt and patently unfair. He pardoned the guy and in the long run he was right.

That's democrat 101. Any other democratic party topics you need to catch up on?

[lolly]

54. Yes, it's like clockwork, isn't it?

Every day on DU lately, we've had our daily "Let's rehash discredited right-wing talking points about the Clintons" thread. Just sayin'.

[OHdem10]

17. People who turn on others because of one act puzzle

me.

Since I have never met a perfect human being, I look at the
whole of a person's life.

[cali]

22. One act? hardly.

I said it was the straw that broke the camel's act, and I opined that I'd never had a lot respect for him. I listed other things. And there's so, so much more.

[wisteria]

26. How old are you? Don't you remember the Clinton years?

It was one scandal after another. And,it began the moment they took over the White House. No, if it was one indiscretion it would be forgivable, but it isn't and I do not want to see a repeat performance.

[lolly]

55. You're missing a few words

"One trumped-up, baseless accusation of scandal after another"

There, fixed it for you.

Of course, if Clinton had been a Vietnam veteran, decorated with a Bronze Star and a Purple Heart, and had no record of marital infedelity, the right would never have been able to trump up one phony "scandal" after another about him . . .

Oh, wait . . .

[Captain Hilts]

20. The PM of Israel asked Bubba to pardon him. nt

[wisteria]

25. Yes, Mark Rich brought it all into perspective for me. That disgusting pardon.

Although, when it is documented that you will do anything for money and a vote, when what you do is unethical or close to being illegal and when you put the White House up for sale by taking donations for a stay in the Lincoln bedroom they also allude to the type of person you are.
I think it is wrong that our party is represented by the likes of Bill Clinton. He is and was an embarrassment. And, I for one will not defend him simply because he calls himself a Democrat.

[lolly]

56. Ding, ding!

We have a winner!

The discredited "Lincoln Bedroom" scandal!!!!

Now, 100 pts to whoever brings up "Vince Foster was actually killed by Hillary because she was having an affair with him"

[grantcart]

27. Thank god the republicans will never think to bring this up

[BigDDem]

28. Hopefully someday Bill Clinton will be able to get over the fact

that he has "earned your disrespect." :rofl:

[DURHAM D]

35. I just snorted coffee on my keyboard.

Thanks for the laugh. People are looking at me funny...

:spank:

[MollieBradford]

42. Cali and the lunatic 20 percent

who still think the Clenis is responsible for all evil in the world.

[rodeodance]

45. HA HA--good one.. Stuff like the OP should be mothballed!

[Perry Logan]

36. Here's what Bill Clinton says about the pardon.

My Reasons for the Pardons

"I decided to grant the pardons in this unusual case for the following legal and foreign policy reasons: (1) I understood that the other oil companies that had structured transactions like those on which Mr. Rich and Mr. Green were indicted were instead sued civilly by the government; (2) I was informed that, in 1985, in a related case against a trading partner of Mr. Rich and Mr. Green, the Energy Department, which was responsible for enforcing the governing law, found that the manner in which the Rich/Green companies had accounted for these transactions was proper; (3) two highly regarded tax experts, Bernard Wolfman of Harvard Law School and Martin Ginsburg of Georgetown University Law Center, reviewed the transactions in question and concluded that the companies "were correct in their U.S. income tax treatment of all the items in question, and there was no unreported federal income or additional tax liability attributable to any of the transactions"; (4) in order to settle the government's case against them, the two men's companies had paid approximately $200 million in fines, penalties and taxes, most of which might not even have been warranted under the Wolfman/Ginsburg analysis that the companies had followed the law and correctly reported their income; (5) the Justice Department in 1989 rejected the use of racketeering statutes in tax cases like this one, a position that The Wall Street Journal editorial page, among others, agreed with at the time; (6) it was my understanding that Deputy Attorney General Eric Holder's position on the pardon application was "neutral, leaning for"; (7) the case for the pardons was reviewed and advocated not only by my former White House counsel Jack Quinn but also by three distinguished Republican attorneys: Leonard Garment, a former Nixon White House official; William Bradford Reynolds, a former high-ranking official in the Reagan Justice Department; and Lewis Libby, now Vice President Cheney's chief of staff; (8) finally, and importantly, many present and former high-ranking Israeli officials of both major political parties and leaders of Jewish communities in America and Europe urged the pardon of Mr. Rich because of his contributions and services to Israeli charitable causes, to the Mossad's efforts to rescue and evacuate Jews from hostile countries, and to the peace process through sponsorship of education and health programs in Gaza and the West Bank.
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/02/18/opinion/18CLIN.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5070&en=e3819b644697b755&ex=1201237200

[H2O Man]

37. My main concern

was the damage that President Clinton did to habeas corpus. The things that Bush/Cheney have done to the Great Writ were actually a follow-up to Clinton.

[babylonsister]

44. Thanks for educating me, H2O Man. I imagine this is what you

are referring to, and I never knew about it (I was otherwise occupied in 95 :hide:):


Abroad at Home; Mr. Clinton's Betrayal


By ANTHONY LEWIS
Published: July 7, 1995

snip//

After the Oklahoma City bombing, Senate Republicans decided to attach a crippling habeas provision to the counterterrorism bill. On May 23 four former Attorneys General, Democrats and Republicans -- Benjamin Civiletti, Nicholas deB. Katzenbach, Edward H. Levi and Elliot L. Richardson -- wrote President Clinton urging him to oppose it.

"It is vital," they wrote, "to insure that habeas corpus -- the means by which all civil liberties are enforced -- is not substantively diminished. . . . It has a proud history of guarding against injustices born of racial prejudice and intolerance, of saving the innocent from imprisonment or execution and in the process insuring the rights of all law-abiding citizens."

Two days later President Clinton wrote the Senate majority leader, Bob Dole, to say that he favored habeas corpus reform so long as it preserved "the historic right to meaningful Federal review." The issue should be addressed later, he said, not in the counterterrorism bill.

Then, on June 5, Mr. Clinton appeared on television on CNN's "Larry King Live." Asked about habeas corpus, he said reform "ought to be done in the context of this terrorism legislation."

It was a complete switch from his position of less than two weeks before. And it had the effect of undermining Senate supporters of habeas corpus.

more...

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990CE7D71338F934A35754C0A963958260

[Capn Sunshine]

39. I don't know about Rich, but the Gennifer Flowers thing was a PROVEN LIE

It turned out the hotel she claimed they met at was not built at the time.
More here

[MollieBradford]

41. You are being very disloyal to your fellow Obama

supporters. How could you be rational during a primary bash fest? That's just not right! :silly:

[ClericJohnPreston]

48. Its a Cali thread...

since when did rationality ever enter the picture?

When you wade in that thicket, expect the "echo chamber" of ObamaNation, or logic, such as Gennifer Flowers, being raised as justification.

Actually, my two favorite Calliisms in this thread, are her, "that isn't what my sources say" ( what inner voice is Cali's source...? )and that she doesn't like a "CENTRIST". :rofl:

I can think of many things to label Obama, but Cali has pegged his #1 claim to fame : centrism. Way to be logically consistent.

[GoldieAZ49]

52. Bill Clinton admitted It was NO LIE back in 1998

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1998/01/22/flowers.king/
Sources: Clinton Admits Sexual Affair With Flowers

By John King/CNN

WASHINGTON (AllPolitics, Jan. 22) -- President Bill Clinton in sworn testimony has acknowledged he had a sexual relationship with Gennifer Flowers during his tenure as Arkansas governor, something he flatly denied in the 1992 presidential campaign, sources have told CNN.

Sources familiar with Clinton's deposition in the Paula Jones sexual harassment case say Clinton denied Flowers' claim of a long-running, 12-year affair. But the sources say he acknowledged they did have a sexual relationship.

The revelation is important to the Jones legal team as it tries to prove a pattern of sexual misconduct by the president, and its contention that he punished women who rebuffed his sexual advances and rewarded those who welcomed them. Flowers received a state job during the time period in question.

It is for this same reason that Jones' lawyers want to take sworn testimony from former White House intern Monica Lewinsky, and explore efforts by Washington superlobbyist Vernon Jordan and others to help the young woman get jobs, including a public relations position at the Revlon cosmetics company. Revlon withdrew its offer Wednesday after reports of allegations Lewinsky had an affair with the president.

*********************************
The BBC had a laundry list back in 1998, now that he isn't POTUS it will be interesting to see how many more will be added if they get the nomination.

All the President's women
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/1998/clinton_scandal/49771.stm

[BootinUp]

46. So I assume you read his reasons for the pardon

and it just doesn't impress you I'm guessin.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/02/18/opinion/18CLIN.html?ex=1201237200&en=e3819b644697b755&ei=5070

As to your disgust about his personal failings I really couldn't give a crap.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

49. I'll call bullshit

First look at my avatar. Hilliary is my LEAST FAVORITE Democrat in the primaries.

But the Marc Rich story is pure Fox News garbage. Every person who receives a presidential pardon is guilty of something -- Rich was under indictment for fraud and tax evasion. There are some dubious grounds for the fraud charges (brought by then U.S. Attorney Rudy Giuliani) and reason to believe that the charges might not stand up in court. What's more Rich had several prominint persons (including the former Prime Minister of Israel and King Juan Carlos of Spaid) who were advocates for a pardon. The fact that Rich's ex-wife was a prominent Clinton supporter is false cause-effect argument. Bill Clinton had scores of significant financial supporters -- some of whom wanted similar favors from the Clinton Administration. Most of them went away empty-handed.

This story ranks right up there with the Air Force One vandalism crapola spewed by the right wing in the early days of the Bush Administration. Bill Clinton was not my favorite Democrat, but that's no excuse for this.

[live love laugh]

59. Thanks Jeff. I call bullshit too. This is pure regurgitated garbage. nt

[ieoeja]

53. I had no problem with the Rich pardon.

As I recall numerous people in gov't thought Rich was getting screwed by the overzealous prosecutor, Rudy Ghuliani.

And he allegedly did some clandestine diplomacy for the State Department.


As to the Gennifer Flowers nonsense, that is actually why I started supporting Bill Clinton. It contrasted so well against the Gary Hart/Donna Rice issue in the previous election.

In that election I supported Hart before and after Rice. But when he dropped out of the race only to re-enter it when the polls showed most people were just like me, then like most people I dropped my support for him.

Rice was sitting in his lap; is that so odd? I've had dozens of beautiful women sit in my lap over the years with whom I never had sex. And even if he was nailing her, who cares? But dropping out of the race over this triviality said to me that he lacked guts for the job of President of the United States.

Conversely, Clinton's refusal to do so showed just the opposite. Of course, he had the 20:20 hindsight of Hart/Rice to aid in his decision.

[cooolandrew]

57. The record is the key to thecandidate, all I'll say.

[live love laugh]

58. Gee these are the exact things the right wingers spewed ad nauseum for years--

And it's REALLY O.L.D.

[JI7]

60. he pardoned Marc Rich over Web Hubbell

that never made sense to me.