*Breaking*-Hillary to push for Florida delegates to be seated

[Tropics_Dude83]

Just now on MSNBC. Howard Wolfson (her communications director) is calling on Obama/Edwards delegates at the convention to seat the Florida delegates and states that it is very important that the voice of hundreds of thousands of Florida voters be counted. Wolfson seems to be pushing for Florida to count.

Wow! And Andrea Mitchell was kind of wowed at this too.

[rodeodance]

1. yes, BRAVO to Sen. Clinton

[Tropics_Dude83]

9. It's changing the rules in the middle of the game

The DNC stripped Florida of it's delegates for not following the rules and all candidates pledged not to campaign there. Now, she goes against the DNC snd does what is in her best interest. Ugh. What about the rules of fair play?

[Barack_America]

35. But as long as the new rules favor her, it's fine, right? n/t

[liberalnurse]

77. Works for me............

I look at it as an appeal process thing. Edwards and Obama, both attorneys in their own right, each could of done the same thing........(since challenging rules of law is a known training skill of the law school curriculum)

:shrug:

[krkaufman]

97. Ummm... I think the "ethics" classes are more to the point, here.

If the candidates agreed not to campaign in the states whose delegates had been snubbed by the DNC, then it would be unethical to break that pledge, that promise, after the fact -- especially after it is far too late for campaigning to do any good.

I'm still wondering what the agreement *was* between the 3 leading candidates, and how Hillary Clinton's name ended-up on the Michigan ballot -- while Obama and Edwards did not.

[liberalnurse]

105. It will all shake out soon....

I'm interested and have had the best of intentions to of kept up on the Michigan/Florida Primary battle, but there is so much to follow and such limited time to do it...:banghead:

I wish it had not come to this.....I support Dean as he is complying to "our rules" and is obligated to do just that............the issue was never really final and resolved with the people at least.

[krkaufman]

156. Yeah, as I've mentioned elsewhere in this thread ...

... it was an ugly problem, with little time for the DNC to determine a proper response.

My only hope is that the delegate count difference is wide enough for the FL & MI delegates not to make the difference. (Unfortunately, the fact that the media will still portray both primaries as "wins" *will* have an effect on the vote in other states. But what are ya gonna do?)

[madfloridian]

183. That was WHY the two states did it.

To make her win inevitable.

[krkaufman]

204. That not an impossibility.

DLC Dems may have been maneuvering for that very reality. A saddening possibility.

[swoop]

145. That's a good question! n/t

[elixir]

134. And I thought I read on DU that Obama is the (only?) candidate campaigning in FL?!!!

[madfloridian]

181. Another lie.

.

[rodeodance]

39. She is asking the DNC to re-consider. It remains to be seen if this will occur.

[Little Star]

51. Obama started this with his Florida ads. How soon we forget.

[liberalnurse]

108. I'd love to see one of those Ads

posted right here on DU!

[KittyWampus]

123. You are the one who forgot they were national ads, which Hillary can do as well.

[mckeown1128]

139. Those were national ads....not "florida ads"....nt

[krkaufman]

179. If *that* is the case, that Obama campaigned/advertised in Florida ...

... then the following article/post highlights the proper response:

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_politics/2007/06/democrats-still.html

Democrats also say their rules mean any presidential candidates who campaign in the state will lose all the delegates they win there.

So any delegates Obama wins should be stripped. Right?

The following article also covers the Florida debacle a bit, including what might be considered a comment from a Clinton spokesperson that breaks the original pledge to support the DNC decision and not to "campaign" in Florida...

http://www.sptimes.com/2008/01/16/State/Obama_stirs_fight_wit.shtml

"We signed a pledge not to campaign in Florida before Feb. 5, and we're not going to campaign in Florida," Clinton spokesman Mo Elleithee said. "But it is disappointing that the Obama campaign continues to tell people that their voices don't count, that they continue to disenfranchise people. Hillary Clinton wants to be president of all 50 states."

This comment sure borders on campaigning, as it would obviously be published to Floridians.

And the decision not to seat FL delegate was a DNC decision -- so yet another Clinton spokesperson is twisting the facts (i.e. lying) in order to put Obama in a bad light.

[durrrty libby]

72. Millions should not be disenfranchised

[krkaufman]

88. Well, it's too late now.

The Michigan primary has come and gone and Florida's is imminent, so you either disenfranchise all Dem voters in Florida and Michigan equally, or you give preference to Hillary Clinton voters, at this point.

Much like in Michigan, where the candidates also "pledged" not to campaign (though Hillary Clinton ended-up on the ballot, somehow), the Florida delegates will likely favor the most well-known candidate, the former First Lady. The delegates from both these states should NOT be used as a deciding factor in determining the nominee; doing so will result in a tainted selection.

And having the push to seat these delegates come from the campaign of the candidate who would benefit most from their seating reeks.

[capi888]

111. I am from Michigan..

Edwards and Obama and the others Removed their names from the ballot, but Hillary, Kuchinich, and Dodd were still on the ballot along with uncommitted.
Plus, I was recieving phone calls from (So.Carolina) telling me that the delegates would not be seated so your vote won't count or vote uncommitted .
Now I keep up very well with the political spin going on, from the GOP, knowing they were trying to rig the election 2006. So started checking things out.
I am not sure WHO was doing the calling, however, a group, was started for an investigation to investigate the calls. I gave a full report...
They were telling Democratic voters not to even bother, as it wouldn't count anyway...
After listening to the spin, I called those in the know, and they said, ALL delegates WILL be seated, during the Convention. So folks lots of hanky panky going on...

The fact that those removed their name was a bad mistake, and NOT any ads or campaigning was done in Michigan.

[krkaufman]

144. Not sure what you're saying.

However, given that no ads or campaigning was done in Michigan, the resulting vote will be tilted toward the previously most well-known candidate. (as also noted by Juan Cole in the link, below)

As for whether withdrawing from the ballot was a mistake, I'm not sure. Given the ban on campaigning, if Obama and Edwards had left their names on the ballot, they'd have received some finite number of votes that could be later pointed at as showing voters had been given a choice; however, with their names removed from the ballot, seating the Michigan delegates will necessarily disenfrancise Obama and Edwards supporters.

Re: "I called those in the know, and they said, ALL delegates WILL be seated, during the Convention."

Yes, I've heard the same; but it is more of a pledge/prediction (from the likes of Carl Levin) and not a definite fact. (though, let's be honest, Carl Levin isn't just some schmuck off the street)

I think the DNC bungled the whole thing, though I'm not sure how it could have been handled. Florida and Michigan both appear to have jumped the previously agreed-upon primary schedule, so some action was necessary. The problem now is, the Michigan and Florida delegates will be tainted by the rules in place, and so I just pray that the difference between candidates is much greater than the sum of the FL & MI delegates.

The bigger problem may be the effect the lack of campaigning and delegate handling will have on the general election.

[sandyj999]

188. I'm From Michigan too and I guess we just don't matter. n/t

[CTyankee]

116. How does she benefit the most? Sorry, I'm a bit out of this FL loop.

From what you say she had some kind of a "fix" in with FL. If that is true, then this is cynical on her part. I just don't know what happened that put her in the favored spot cuz I hadn't heard that...

[krkaufman]

128. I explained it in the previous post...

... commenting that, absent any campaigning or advertising, the previously most well-known candidate has the advantage... that candidate being the former First Lady. Obama and Edwards will have *some* name recognition, from Obama's coverage in the news and Edwards' previous 2004 campaign, but Florida voters will have little idea what their actual positions are.

Also, consider this.

I'm not saying a "fix" is in, only that I'm interested in why some Dem candidates removed themselves from the Michigan ballot and others not (and am yet to determine who's on the FL ballot); and I'm not completely convinced that the Clinton campaign's request to seat the Florida delegates is wholly altruistic and pro-democracy.

[CTyankee]

155. Well, it looks like that was a shrewd move on her part.

Part of me wants to say that she is bad to play her advantage this way, the other part of me says she is smart enough to play tough against the Republicans.

I am not thrilled with the way this campaign is coming down. Today I am downright scowling, and have been for a while...

[krkaufman]

160. Yeah, but isn't that the politics we'd decry were it done by a Republican?

Personally, I want a candidate who will promote their vision, judgement and experience, and defend against attacks, but won't create fabrications in regards to their opponent.

This campaign is pushing me towards the need to purge this party of such politics, to the degree possible.

[CTyankee]

192. In a way yes, in a way no. In opening up the FL primary to all Dems

yes, she is rolling loaded dice. But you never can tell with Dems. They are not as easily herded as Republicans.

Sorry, I'm just a bit tired. All this wrangling is exhausting to my poor brain. I had so wanted John Edwards as our nominee...

[krkaufman]

78. That's the phrase I was thinking of...

Much like in Michigan, where the candidates also "pledged" not to campaign, the Florida delegates will likely favor the most well-known candidate, the former First Lady. The delegates from both these states should NOT be used as a deciding factor in determining the nominee; doing so will result in a tainted selection.

[durrrty libby]

91. Yeah what about fair play to hundreds of thousands of voters

Some democrat you are :puke: :puke:

[krkaufman]

104. Also, do note that it is Florida Republicans that initiated the problem...

http://www.boston.com/news/local/new_hampshire/articles/2007/05/21/early_primary_will_give_florida_big_say_in_presidential_election/

... by moving Florida ahead of the Super Tuesday primaries.

Another article on the same... http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=3197150 ... including a picture with (D) Wexler appearing to be on-board w/ the bill -- though I expect Wexler's support was primarily due to the bill also requiring a verifiable paper trail for all Florida voting systems.


What I don't understand is why the state government can dictate when a party holds its primary... unless they're forcing both parties to the same day to minimize costs, and confusion.

[Alexander]

42. Yes, bravo to the Clintons for lying, smearing, Swiftboating and breaking rules.

Birds of a feather and all that.

[rodeodance]

64. Wellstone would not paint a broadbush like that (just my opine)

[Alexander]

122. Wellstone would never have approved of their tactics.

Then again, I think it's ridiculous to assume what a dead man would do today.

[Dante_]

80. Gawd Bless Hillary Clinton!!!!!!

It's a great day to be an American

[DJ13]

2. This is a betrayal of the entire Party

If she gets away with this, Im re-registering as an independant after I vote for Obama Feb. 5th.

[Barack_America]

5. Hillary 2008: Whatever it Takes.

I agree with you. If she gets away with this I will be leaving the party as well. The Democratic party as I know it will be over.

[rodeodance]

15. Very smart move by Hill--she sure up'ed Obama and Edwards on this one!

[Barack_America]

19. Yeah, she sure outsleazed them.

Honest, forthright politicians. Who the hell believes in that shit anymore anyway?

[rodeodance]

48. come up here in the Sunshine--lots better for people's overall health.

[durrrty libby]

79. So you want voters not to count? Talk about sleaze

[1corona4u]

114. Actually Obama outsleazed them

when he started advertising here.

[Occam Bandage]

21. How did she "up" them? There's no reason to think the party will seat them just because

the candidate who won them wants to have them count.

[rodeodance]

36. Class act by Hill---. Whether they are seated or not (I hope they are).

[Occam Bandage]

38. Demanding that MI and FL be allowed to get away with backstabbing the party, just so you can grab

more delegates, is not a "class act."

[rodeodance]

45. She politely is asking.

[krkaufman]

119. Note that her asking, politely or not ...

... will likely get news coverage in Florida, providing the Clinton campaign with free advertising -- skirting the "no campaign" pledge -- and framing the campaign as the friends of Florida voters.

And if the Florida delegates do get seated, she gains an even bigger advantage -- since there's no time for the less well-known candidates to get into Florida and campaign prior to the primary, giving the edge to the already most well-known candidate; and also because the Michigan delegates she "won", in a nearly identical situation, will also necessarily be seated.

I'm not wholly convinced that the request isn't a political calculation. It's a win-win for the Clintons.

[MediaBabe]

54. It used to be the PEOPLE mattered, not the PARTY n/t

[Occam Bandage]

58. Yes. The FL and MI parties deliberately fucked over their voters to increase their power.

[krkaufman]

148. I need to get more info on exactly how FL & MI did so ...

... 'cause, from what I can tell right now, FL was the first to jump the primary schedule -- and that may have induced MI to then do so.

Personally, I can understand Michigan's desire to have a bigger voice more than Florida's. Michigan's economy is in the toilet, and so it would have made sense for there to be some focus on this critical state. I see no special need for Florida to have jumped ahead, other than Florida's own self-interest and arrogance. I think Florida's already had enough say in who's President, after the 2000 election.

[leftynyc]

57. Where is she demanding?

The Obama supporters are very cavalier about discounting the votes of so many democrats. I suspect it would be different if Obama was ahead in FL. Meanwhile, Clinton has broken no rules - she is not campaigning and she still gets slammed here - how freaking pathetic.

[krkaufman]

115. Well, not really classy at all. In fact, it's likely just political calculation.

If they seat them, then the most well-known candidate -- Clinton -- has a major advantage, since no one has been campaigning in Florida; further, if the Florida delegates are seated, then the Michigan delegates must necessarily ALSO be seated, where the most well-known candidate has already won a majority of delegates -- both due to a similar "no campaign" pledge, and because the other top candidates withdrew their names from the ballot.

Another political angle, which I'm sure the Clinton campaign has considered, is that making this request will get news media coverage, providing them free advertising (skirting the "no campaign" pledge) framing the campaign as the friends of Florida voters.

Yeah, breaking a pledge is oh-so-classy.

[JackORoses]

137. she is a selfish, desperate woman

she doesn't care about Florida.
she cares about getting back to the White House.

[rodeodance]

7. Are you WHINNING?--she wants to Enfranchise people for petey's sake!

[Occam Bandage]

10. Once it became clear that they would be her delegates, yes.

[LisaM]

14. Off topic, but are people misspelling whining on purpose?

I keep seeing it and maybe it's a joke reference?

[Barack_America]

16. No, I think it's just indicative of something...n/t

[babylonsister]

25. No, it's just one person who is spelling challenged AFAIK. nt

[rodeodance]

71. yup, I freely admit---I am spelling challenged.

[rodeodance]

41. I do it on purpose-----for emphasis.

[LisaM]

46. Well it's distracting

It looks like the word "whinny" - as in the sound a horse makes. It reminds me of people who spell "lose" as "loose". WTF? I know someone who does that who has a college degree! Doesn't speak very well for the University of Wisconsin.

[rodeodance]

60. I feel the same with when posters use WTF or STFU. It does 'sound'

----to the ear-- like the sounds a horse makes (when I use my virtual ear imagination).

[LisaM]

65. How is a misspelled word the same as an acronym?

I'm sorry, but I don't get the analogy. I appreciate that the Internet abbreviations bother you, but I don't see it as the same thing as changing one word to another.

[rateyes]

47. To emphasize what?

The fact that you can't spell the word "whining?"

[rodeodance]

50. ..the WHINNNNNE..........

was that better?

[Occam Bandage]

56. That would be pronounced something like

Winnnnnnnnnnnn, c.f. "whinny."

You mean to write "Whiiiiiining."

[rateyes]

61. No, it wasn't. Phonetically speaking, that spelling gives the

"i" a "short vowel" sound, as in "win." Perhaps you might try: WHIIIIIIIIIIIIIINING.

[LisaM]

53. I know; it changes the pronunciation

And it has been driving me CRAZY!!! LOLOL.

Sorry but it reflects on your candidate when you consistently do that.

[Skwmom]

69. She only wants to enfranchise people when it's to her benefit.

Otherwise, she'll do whatever it takes to make sure they can't vote. Now who does that remind you of? Anybody?

[truebrit71]

164. ...but only when it benefits her....

...funny, that seems to run in her family...

[Occam Bandage]

17. Absolutely. FL and MI told the rest of the Democratic party to fuck off. They agreed to

the primary schedules, they agreed to break them, and they agreed to continue to break them after they were told they would lose their delegates.

Then comes Mother Superior Clinton, willing to free those poor people from their self-inflicted bondage...just so long as they're supporting her.

[LisaM]

40. That is fucking BULLSHIT

The Michigan REPUBLICAN party, which comprises 100% ASSHOLES, forced the primaray date up in Michigan and the DNC just said SO WHAT.

BTW, Michigan has been having a terrible recession (initially called a one-state recession but now it's affecting everyone) and the rest of the country is basically saying FUCK YOU.

I don't give a rat's ass about the people in Florida who screwed us over in 2000 and let the Miami Herald publish their array of lies about who won that election, but stop dissing Michigan. You would rather have the fate of our union given over to people in Iowa and Nevada who have no clue about the struggle of unions and the manufacturing base that helped contribute to this country after the Depression and WWII and just seem to vote on the basis of "he said, she said" and a popularity contest?

I'm sorry, but that PISSES me off.

[Hippo_Tron]

55. Democrats control the House and the Governor's mansion in Michigan

I fail to see how the GOP could've moved up the primary date without their help.

[Occam Bandage]

90. The Democratic Michigan house voted for it. The Democratic Michigan governor wanted it.

The state Democratic party gave it their blessing.

Don't blame the rest of the nation because your state got too greedy.

[LisaM]

102. Greedy? The most economically deprived state in the country right now?

We are no stronger than the least amongst us.

[Occam Bandage]

117. Doesn't mean your party isn't greedy for influence and power.

[LisaM]

125. My party? Don't you mean OUR party?

I'm assuming you are a Democrat.

BTW, it's pretty much been shown that Michigan's problems are indicative of the country's problems as a whole. Michigan would have been a very logical choice for an early primary. However, Michigan's problems don't seem to matter to the rest of the country. It's been this way since the Detroit riots in 1967.

[Occam Bandage]

127. No. I mean your state party, which agreed to disenfranchise you so they could have the prestige

of an earlier primary.

[LisaM]

135. Well don't count out the machinations of the Michigan GOP

They are a dirty bunch.

But let me ask you straight out: as an American citizen, do you worry about Michigan's problems and issues (which are beginning to be felt by the entire country)? Do you CARE? Do you understand why Michigan was so desperate to be counted?

[Occam Bandage]

140. Both state parties are at fault, yes.

Michigan has its problems and wants representation. So does Florida. So does every other one of the other forty-eight states. We can't just let states decide for themselves whether their problems trump everyone else's, for obvious reasons--everyone would demand to go first. Part of being in a democracy is respecting the problems of others. A bigger part of being in a democracy is abiding by the decision of the majority.

[LisaM]

159. Except what people are not seeming to get

Is that Michigan has had the WORST economy in the country for several years. They've lost a lot of jobs. They have even lost population (down more than 30,000 last year). These problems are now beginning to be felt by the rest of the country. Michigan would have been a LOGICAL choice for an early primary.

Michigan has also gone reliably blue since 1992. I don't think that Nevada, South Carolina, Iowa, and New Hampshire can say that. Now, the Democrats have real chance of losing Michigan this time around because of this disconnect.

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but I am reading that you don't find Michigan's problems to be more compelling than Nevada's, for instance. Now, there are other states with enormous problems. I think it would have made sense for Louisisana, for example, to have an early primary to force the nation's attention. However, I do not find that people in the rest of the country give a rip about Michigan's problems. Do you make an effort to buy union? Do you actively work against bad trade agreements like NAFTA? Do you support outsourcing? When you buy a new car, do you buy American (you can argue that Honda or Toyota makes better cars, but you must also realize that we, the American taxpayer, are subsidizing their employees since they do not pay the retirement benefits the American companies do, and that they are allowed to flood our markets, while theirs are closed to us, and that their governments subsidize the car industry?)

[Occam Bandage]

161. That would be a compelling case to put MI first. However,

in a democracy, when the majority rejects your case and decides otherwise, you do not get to go ahead regardless. When you are warned of the punishment that you will incur, and when you still go ahead, you do not get to complain about the punishment.

[LisaM]

166. I don't think people even recognized the case

That's my whole point. They think it's all about greed. I disagree. I have yet to even hear you say that Michigan's problems need to be recognized, and that you do any of the things I've listed above.

Believe me, I got on my SO and his sister's case last night for scabbing it out and watching Leno. They laughed at me, but I remember growing up, when we were little, we walked the picket lines for the Farm Workers. These things matter deeply to me, as you can tell.

[Dante_]

98. waaaaaaaaaah! is an appropriate message for your hysterical post.

Stop The Hate!

[Occam Bandage]

130. No, it's not. I'm telling the MI/FL whiners to stop crying about the DNC. This is what their state

voted for. This is what their state party agreed to.

[FreakinDJ]

34. Why not she is like Republican-lite anyway

[durrrty libby]

76. But it's ok to disenfranchised millions of innocent voters?

I think not

[Truth2Tell]

99. It's a no win.

either we disenfranchise the millions (or less than a million actually, Mr. exaggeration), or we allow the rules of the process to be rendered meaningless, which in effect disenfranchises many many millions more who participated in the process fairly. The DNC didn't cause this - the State Parties in FL and MI did. Go do your Clinton Kissup Bitching to them.

[durrrty libby]

112. Here ya go. Tom explains it to you #66

ttp://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4196623&mesg_id=4197057

[Truth2Tell]

199. I understand how it works.

I and also agree it could create negative backlash and cause a "fracus" at the convention as Tom says. No one wants that.

But the simple reality is that if these delegates look like they could be critical in to pushing Hillary over the majority threshold - the Obama and Edwards delegates are not going to agree to seat them. The FL and MI races are not being contested by all the candidates so it would the height of unfairness for the outcomes there to swing the balance of the nomination.

If FL and MI prove to not be decisive in the final outcome, then I'm sure they will be seated. If they are decisive they won't be seated. All the arguing and begging and whining in the world by the Clinton camp won't change that. This Wolfson request is nothing but PR groundwork in the event of fight over this latter. He knows full well no one will commit to seating these delegates at this point. But he's a sleazebag corporate Republican blowhard assbag (like so many of Hillary's friends and advisors), so it's no surprise he's mouthing off.

[Dante_]

96. methinks you had an Obama moment. you hit the wrong button.

read before you hit post

[krkaufman]

110. I won't be leaving the party, 'cause the reality is ...

... until the system is changed, we're stuck w/ a two-party system for Presidential elections -- unless one of the parties nominates a known child molester, giving an independent candidate and actual chance to win versus merely spoiling.

Another option for you is to just not vote for her, come November. I'm not quite there, yet, 'cause I think we need a Democrat in the White House, but the Clinton campaign tactics are pushing me damn close. I *so* want to be done w/ Atwater/Rove/Carville-style politics, that it might be worth 4 more years of suffering, to get a different Dem President in 2012.

[CTyankee]

118. Actually, Joe Lieberman ran against a child molester for the Senate in 2000, altho we didn't know

about the child molestation until right after the election. The guy is now in prison for, like, forever. (In case you are wondering how this is so, Joe was able to game the system in CT so that he could run both for his Senate seat and for VP at the same time...go figure...).

Given their predelictions,it wouldn't suprise me if our Dem candidates already ARE running against a few child molesters out there. Just sayin'...

[Dante_]

126. Lieberman was a loyal Democrat and great liberal until...the haters...

...the so called peace people chased him and hounded him. What happened? Joe won.

Poor Joe. I remember the DNC Convention in Boston. Kerry, Clinton, Obama and everyone but a few rejects were all glad and happy t see Joe.

[CTyankee]

142. You haven't been here long, have you?

I didn't see the sarcasm thingie on your post so I am assuming you are serious in your remarks about Joe.

You might want to tread lightly here at DU if you feel this way about Joe. Lots of bad feelings here.

I worked for Ned Lamont as a low level volunteer. It's a long story for us liberal Dems in CT but I don't want to get wound up right before the weekend...

[Dante_]

165. I am serious. I liked Joe and will always defend his honor. he was chased out and Lamont was no...

man of the people. We can agree to disagree, but I have been a loyal Democrat for a long time and what happened to Joe has people like me wary of things.

One issue. the war.

[Dante_]

167. I know there are admirable liberals in Conn. who disagreed with Joe on the war...

what else?

I saw all the anti-semitism and it was fugly.

[Dante_]

170. maybe next week we can...

maybe next week we can have an honest and open conversation about what exactly happened with Joe and people like you who disagreed with him?

a little civil discourse on this may be due

[CTyankee]

189. Fair enough. I walked my section of the ward getting signatures to put Ned on the ballot

challenging Joe. My neighborhood in Westville (in New Haven) is right next to Joe's old neighborhood (ours is more modest). So some of the Dems I contacted on my door to door (Dems only) work actually knew Joe well and were co-congregants with him at the shull. They were all extremely nice to me, even tho I didn't know them at all, and explained gently, but firmly, that they were standing by Joe. They impressed me with their graciousness.

Joe lost touch with lots of other Dems tho. I remember when he was around more, going to our local diner to campaign (even tho he couldn't eat there), jogging in the neighborhood, walking to shull on Saturday mornings with his family. We were pretty happy with him. But he changed. I think Washington went to his head, frankly, and I never could understand his stand on the Iraq War.

I knew Ned Lamont slightly. He and his wife were big supporters of Planned Parenthood of CT in Greenwich and I worked for the org. as a major gifts officer. Ned had supported Joe in the past but was opposed to him on the war. I think you know the back story here...

I have my own "war stories" about Ned's campaign. It will be for another time, however...

[Dante_]

191. next week it is. you are CTyankee and I am me.

[CTyankee]

194. Yeah, it's an old war and I'm over it.

BTW, a good description of Ned's campaign from a national perspective is Matt Bai's new book "The Argument: Billionaires, Bloggers and the Battle to Remake Democratic Politics."

Love your name. My grandson's name is Dante.

[Dante_]

195. I apologize to your g-son for using his name. My reputation proceeds me and I hope it doesn't him

[CTyankee]

200. Well, I thought you were referencing Dante Alighieri

not my grandson. My grandson has an Italian last name, but given the Anglo Saxons on my side, he is a blue eyed blond. I show his picture to my Italian friends and they are quite amazed...

[krkaufman]

158. Chuckle. Yes, this is why I qualified my statement as ...

... running against a "known child molester"... :)

Republicans are still nominating candidates, so we're obviously still running against child molesters.

[Dante_]

168. hahaha

[rodeodance]

3. I believe she wants the Michigan folks in also (ealier post on DU--she has a press release)

[rateyes]

4. She should be pushing for the Democratic Party to

enforce the rules. The Florida Democratic Party blew it. Too.fucking.bad.

[Barack_America]

11. She only supports rules that favor her...

We all learned that lesson well with the Nevada lawsuit.

[Emit]

6. Remind me of whose names were kept on the FL ballots?

I honestly have lost track.

[Maribelle]

24. All of the democratic candidates are on the florida ballot.

None were removed.

About 1/3 of the state in many areas have voted early. The count is high.

[Barack_America]

26. Because the deadline had passed for Obama to remove his name.

He at least tried.

[Maribelle]

84. Obama tried? He did not.

Careful - - I know the rules in Florida.

[Emit]

95. Did anyone try?

I understand that in Michigan, Clinton left her name on. What was the deal in Florida?

[mckeown1128]

141. They can't take their names off of the ballots.....nt

check your knowledge of the rules.

[Maribelle]

146. There is one way. And Obama surely didn't try.

Me check the rules? lol

Why on earth do you think I know Obama didn't try.

[mckeown1128]

154. Don't pretend Obama wants his name on the FL ballot...

he took his name off of the Michigan ballot and he could have done much better in Michigan then FL.

[Maribelle]

157. Of course Obama wants his name on the FL ballot, because of the FL rules.

Obama could have taken his name off the ballot, but did not want to for compelling reasons.

[Freddie Stubbs]

149. What specifically did he do to try?

Can you back up your assertion?

[Emit]

150. Thanks -- I must be thinking of Michigan. n/t

[Freddie Stubbs]

147. None:

http://www.miamidade.gov/elections//s_ballots/012908dem-eng.html

[Emit]

152. Thanks--I must have been thinking of Michigan n/t

[LisaM]

I'm glad you said that, because I was going to freak out about Michigan

Which, by the way, has been more reliably blue than freaking FLORIDA!!!!

[Occam Bandage]

8. Hillary Clinton: A tireless advocate

for Hillary Clinton.

[babylonsister]

27. Exactly, same as it ever was. nt

[formernaderite]

31. a sign of things to come

ain't no stopping them now...

[SoFlaJet]

12. Thank You Mrs. Clinton

it's doing the right thing regardless of who you support. It's a disgrace that it was even considered in the first place-NOT seating our delegates after everything we democrats went through down here in 2000

[DJ13]

23. Thank You Mrs. Clinton

[Kucinich4America]

13. If she can get away with this shit

Then I will simply declare myself the nominee, claim that I won "secret primaries" in all 50 states, and I'll even produce a database report with numbers that are just as valid as results from any DIEBOLD machine.

And I'll go into Denver as the winner. Who's going to stop me?

[jsamuel]

18. Doing this A. before the Florida vote and B. before the SC vote is not right

She already signed a pledge against this.

[Maribelle]

29. Obama ads are running all over Florida.

In all the major cities.

[Barack_America]

33. That's on national television.

They couldn't be blocked in just Florida. He tried.

[MediaBabe]

73. That's bull but they keep saying it, anyway

It's plain bull that some people keep spreading. Advertising agencies are in it for the money and nobody spends money where it will do no good. They can pinpoint advertisement seconds right down to the individual cable company if it means saving a penny.

Obama's campaign staff chose to play upon the ignorance of the average person and spread the story that they couldn't do anything about it is going over well but there is no denying the fact that none of his competition is advertising in Florida. That's because they are not liars.

[bluedog]

124. exactly.....they blank out ads from

one city to the next here and I'm sure they can do it with a national ad..they have equipment that block out movie channels.child lock programs and we have the media telling us that they can't block out a national level ad .I'm not buying it...and my daughter works for Bright House here in Fl......

[snooper2]

30. like that's going to stop her...

Just say NO!

BUSH
BUSH
BUSH
BUSH
CLINTON
CLINTON
CLINTON
CLINTON
CLINTON
CLINTON
CLINTON
CLINTON
BUSH :puke:
BUSH :puke:
BUSH :puke:
BUSH :puke:
BUSH :puke:
BUSH :puke:
BUSH :puke:
BUSH :puke:
CLINTON :puke:
CLINTON :puke:
CLINTON :puke:
CLINTON :puke:
CLINTON :puke:
CLINTON :puke:
CLINTON :puke:
CLINTON :puke:

[southern_belle]

74. Does this sound like it comes out of

the Rove playbook to anybody else? The fact that she wouldn't remove her name from the Michigan ballot tells me this was planned in advance (in case she was concerned Obama would overtake her).

[GodlessBiker]

20. In the future, states can do what they want because they know their dels. will be seated.

[onehandle]

22. They were always going to be seated. Michigan too.

If you think otherwise, you're fooling yourself.

It's the right thing that all states be represented at the convention.

[Barack_America]

28. Even if the primaries were a sham?

That is what is "right" to you?

[onehandle]

103. The delegates are not set in stone.

Every state should have a voice at the convention.

[durrrty libby]

85. Exactly and the fact that so called democrats on this board think

it would be ok not to count hundreds of thousands of votes is disgusting and insane

What is wrong with thee fools? They are contemptible assholes

and I wish I could tell everyone of them that to their slimy faces

[hisownpetard]

101. "Boo Hoo. Grow up," as you've been known to say.

[durrrty libby]

109. So your idea of grown up is to disenfranchise hundreds of thousands of voters?

Nice democracy you promote

[Occam Bandage]

132. My idea of grown up is that when you break the rules (and are told beforehand what

the punishment is), you don't cry when the rules are enforced, and you don't try to change the rules for your own benefit.

[JackORoses]

143. wrong! No delegates will be seated based on flawed Primaries

It would call the whole Nomination into question if they were a deciding factor.

[Nite Owl]

32. FL knew the consequences of

what they did and did it anyway. Wasn't this taken to court and the DNC won?

[Pacifist Patriot]

89. Not to put too fine a point on it, but the typical Florida voter did not...

know of it until it was too late. Hell, some still don't know it and our primary is days away. So "Florida" didn't know squat.

[sniffa]

37. Yeah, who didn't see this coming.

Boy, the Clintons sure love power.

[moobu2]

43. Barrack insane Obama supporter Hillary haters whine

about Hillary disenfranchising voters (Nevada) then they whine about wanting to enfranchise voters (Florida). You cant please a whinner.

[JAbuchan08]

81. Doesn't that make Hillary a hypocrite?

To me Democrats (not neccessarily Barak supporters alone) are being consistent when they support consistency with the RULES. It's not about enfranchisement vs. disenfranchisement - it's about following the rules regardless of whether it is personally beneficial.

[Occam Bandage]

94. S'ok. Hillary supporters, to a man, cannot spell "whiner."

[IndianaJones]

44. brilliant political move. do the other two say no? nt.

[Tennessee Gal]

49. Smacks of desperation.

[2rth2pwr]

52. The people of Florida shouldn't be punished for the squabble

of the fat cats. Disenfranchising voters should never be a solution to anything.

I would hope Obama and Edwards are not in favor of taking away the people's voice. Are they?

[leftynyc]

67. It does appear that way

It would be different if either of their candidates were ahead - I'm sure of that. Meanwhile, she's just asking for this - not demanding, not breaking any pledge she has made but none of this matters to the Obama supporters. Meanspirited and pathetically whiny. I'm trying not to dislike Obama because of his supporters here but it's very hard. I will vote for him if he's the candidate but will let his crybaby sycophants do the phone banking and driving people to the polls that I usually arrange for the democratic candidate. His supporters here have turned me off.

[UndergroundEcoHound]

190. whiny...whiny...whiny...gotta love the talking points

"His supporters have turned me off"...that's the method I use for determining whether I like a candidate or not...geez. If you don't understand the frustration felt by the supporters of other candidates in relation to this then you need to take off the blinders. Here's a quick summary of the major points:

1. Florida's state democratic party decided to move up in the primary schedule. To discourage multiple states from doing the same, some type of punishment had to be applied.

2. Now that the primary date is getting closer and Hillary is well ahead she is pushing for the delegates to count so that she can reap the benefits at the expense of the aforementioned enforced punishment.

No one is pushing for disenfranchisement of voters. Everyone just wants a level playing field throughout the nomination process. Breaking out the broad brush to drop names like "crybaby sycophants" is ridiculous and completely off point. Take a step back and look at the whole picture. It's dirty politics, and it does nothing beside drive a wedge deeper between democrats nationally.

[Tennessee Gal]

59. Edwards campaign manager Bonior just said they will not agree.

[Armstead]

68. More Clintonian Duplicity

From the New York Times:


PORTSMOUTH, N.H., Sept. 1 — Three of the major Democratic presidential candidates on Saturday pledged not to campaign in Florida, Michigan and other states trying to leapfrog the 2008 primary calendar, a move that solidified the importance of the opening contests of Iowa and New Hampshire.


Hours after Senator Barack Obama of Illinois and former Senator John Edwards of North Carolina agreed to sign a loyalty pledge put forward by party officials in Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York followed suit. The decision seemed to dash any hopes of Mrs. Clinton relying on a strong showing in Florida as a springboard to the nomination.

“We believe Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina play a unique and special role in the nominating process,” Patti Solis Doyle, the Clinton campaign manager, said in a statement....

More

[AngryAmish]

62. I, for one, think Floridians should never be given the franchise

They have proven themselves incapable of governing themselves.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

63. Excellent

[Tom Rinaldo]

66. Clinton is playing by all the rules. There is false outrage once again.

The decision for what state delegates can be seated, according to the rules, is made by all of the unchallenged delegates to the convention. This is a question that will be put before all the delegates to the Sumnmer convention and every Democratic candidate will be asked how they will ask their pledged delegates to respond.

Most eveyone has always assumed that the Florida delegates will get seated, to do otherwise would create a huge negative live fracus at the convention when they arrive. It would hurt our chances to win Florida in the 2008 General Election if we sent all of those delegated home packing from the nomination convention. Hillary Clinton is saying now what most Democratic Candidate will probably agree to later. Another case of false outrage.

The real teeth applied to bringing Florida back into line with their Primary scheduling has always been the 4 State Agreement with the candidates whereby no candidate campaign activity inside Florida was to take place before Florida voted on an un DNC sanctioned primary date. That boycott has been painful inside Florida since it completely undercut the rational for moving their primary date up; which was to win Florida increased attention prior to their vote by making it an early Primary state.

All the major Democratic candidates have honored that pledge untill Obama recently and unilaterally violated it with a national ad pruchase that included ads that now appear in over 6 million Florida households.

[Armstead]

70. Why didn't she take that position then?

from the New York Times:

PORTSMOUTH, N.H., Sept. 1 — Three of the major Democratic presidential candidates on Saturday pledged not to campaign in Florida, Michigan and other states trying to leapfrog the 2008 primary calendar, a move that solidified the importance of the opening contests of Iowa and New Hampshire.

Hours after Senator Barack Obama of Illinois and former Senator John Edwards of North Carolina agreed to sign a loyalty pledge put forward by party officials in Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York followed suit. The decision seemed to dash any hopes of Mrs. Clinton relying on a strong showing in Florida as a springboard to the nomination.

“We believe Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina play a unique and special role in the nominating process,” Patti Solis Doyle, the Clinton campaign manager, said in a statement....

MORE

[Tom Rinaldo]

75. She kept that pledge

The pledge concerned NOT CAMPAIGNING in states leapfroging the 2008 primary calender. Hillary is still holding to the terms of that pledge even though Obama broke it with his unilateral and unique national ad purchase that results in his campaign ads being viewed in over 6 and a half million Florida households as we speak.

[Armstead]

83. The meaning of is

If she had character, she would have defended the right of Floridians to have a meaningful primary back then when it counted.

Kind of like her being anti-war now when it's safe, after thumbing her nose at opponents of the Iraq Invasion back when it mattered.

As for Obama's ad purchase. I honestly don't know the details -- but if he is running national ads that happen to be seen in Florida along with the other 49 states, I don't see anything wrong with that. If he is buying national time on cable networks, it would be a nightmare of logistics -- if not impossible -- to black out a state....But as I say I don't know the details, so I might be wrong on that one.

[Tom Rinaldo]

106. I really do see it differently.

For one thing I have looked into the 4 state pledge prohibiting campaigning in Florida. If you want to see what I have turned up regarding it, I made several posts on this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=4162289#4162894

I honestly feel that the 4 State Pledge was and is the heart and soul of pressuring Florida to comply with DNC rules, not ultimately whether Florida's delegates actually get seated.

And I have also always supported Howard Dean and the DNC regarding their efforts to prevent total chaos with all the states trying to crowd the front of the nominating Primary cycle. It really is getting crazy, Candidates were forced to campaign throughout the heart of the Christmas holiday season in Iowa this year. The number of states that have piled onto Feb. 5th this time makes campaigning in every one of them in person virually impossible, and TV campaigning prohibitively impossible for more than a couple of candidates.

I think the time to fight for Primary slots is at the DNC meetings held in advance. That is where this mess needs to be ironed out. Both Florida and Michigan agreed for 2008 and then violated their own agreements. I was a big supporter of the 4 State Pledge, and pragmatically I have always known that we can't afford to bar Floridas delegates at the door this Summer when they arrive at the National Convention. In this case I honestly think Hillary has it right.

[madfloridian]

129. Tom, he got permission. I expect you to be honest.

.

[Tom Rinaldo]

138. Mad, he got "permission" from one of the 4 State Chairs

Plese read what I wrote carefully. Maybe you did but if not please do. The pledge was not with South Carolina only. It really wan't. It wasn't up to the South Carolina Chair alone to relese participants from that pledge.

[madfloridian]

175. That is what he was told to do by the DNC.

And he did it. I have the article somewhere. I did not expect to have to be arguing with you.

[Tom Rinaldo]

184. If you can, please find it

I have looked into this honestly. At least I have tried to. Every thing I have found says the agreement was betweeen the four State Chairs and the candidates directly. I have heard the DNC referred to as a "referee" by someone, but nowhere have I found the deal described as being with the DNC. Again, I HAVE seen it repeatedly described as between the 4 State Chairs and the candidates. From what I can see Obama "renegotiated" the deal by clearing new terms with one State Chair only. His campaign does not claim to have talked with the other candidates or the other 3 State Chairs before deciding to buy that national ad contract. If you have information that adds to this picture or materially changes it, I would be sincerely interested in seeing it.

[CRH]

82. I will wait to hear Howard Dean's decision, ...

but if it were change without time for all the campaigns to react, I would just say WOW, and buy some popcorn and perhaps some bananas too!

[Pacifist Patriot]

86. As a Floridian and a voter, anyone who thinks I should suck it up because...

the Florida State legislature and the Florida GOP and the Florida Democrats broke rules can bite me. Step into my shoes and come feel what it's like to be disenfranchised with no say whatsoever. Sorry, but I disagree with punishing millions of voters because the power elite acted like....well, power elite.

[Occam Bandage]

92. Then vote out the bastards who agreed to disenfranchise you to increase the power of their state.

[Pacifist Patriot]

202. Would love to. Florida state legislature has a GOP supermajority.

Already registered my ire with the Florida Dems.

[MelissaB]

100. I'm in Michigan and in the same boat, but this pisses me off.

Hillary for Hillary. I'm about to make a decision on who to support and it won't be her.

[robbedvoter]

Exactly. Rght to vote is paramount. Party hacks should duke it out administratively

without screwing the election for all voters.

[book_worm]

87. So Florida is more important than Michigan? Why didn't she push for Michigan?

[Maribelle]

93. She did. In the same announcement. (n/t)

[Coexist]

107. the Florida Democratic Party screwed up - needs to take their lumps.

Dean did the right thing. She needs to stay out of it. If it was so important to her, she shouldve done something during the tussle.

[RiverStone]

120. Agreed and if they re-do FLA, they better re-do MI

As the the MI primary was not legit; can't chane the rules after the fact.

[robbedvoter]

172. THEIR LUMPS. Not the voters' rights. Find another way to solve this. Fine them

censure them. replace them. Don't punish voters in 2 states for it. That's F*ud up>

[madfloridian]

113. This is just so nervy. It was her campaign folks who helped push it.

I am tired of the lies, tired of the pressure from her side....we voted for Obama.

I am not liking the Clintons very much right now.

[MelissaB]

121. This just pushed me to Edwards.

I was leaning toward him anyway...

[robbedvoter]

176. YEAH! CUZ......DOWN WITH VOTING RIGHTS??????

[Occam Bandage]

186. Down with abusive state parties telling the rest of the nation to fuck themselves.

[MelissaB]

193. Bullshit! I started out in ER after the last presidential election.

[AtomicKitten]

131. The Clintons don't need no stinkin' rules!

[robbedvoter]

177. Maybe, the right to vote is a bigger rule than party squabbles? RNC did better by their

voters - how embarrassing is that?

[AtomicKitten]

182. The DNC and Howard Dean have set the rules.

Perhaps you and the Clintons should take it up with them before presumptuously and cavalierly dismissing the rules.

[book_worm]

133. looks like she is trying to cusion a SC loss with this

but of course nobody has been campaigning in Florida so she's the one who gains.

[LittleClarkie]

136. Pandering for Florida votes

Not that there's any love lost between Dean and the Hillary campaign. I'm not surprised she would disrespect his authority like that.

The votes are more important to her than the party.

[robbedvoter]

178. The right to vote IS more important than the party!

[Occam Bandage]

187. The FL state Democratic party disagrees.

[William769]

151. Something I just found out, ultimately Dean will NOT have the final say on the Delegates being

Seated!

Thats great news!

It will be up to committees and the eventual nominee, so I guess the the squabbling has been over nothing.

ON EDIT: to add link.

http://www.sptimes.com/2008/01/19/State/QA__Parties__penaltie.shtml

[madfloridian]

173. Yes, it is the credentials committee who will choose.

In the long run Hillary will win, and the same old same old will remain.

[William769]

174. And life remains great!

[madfloridian]

180. And arrogance rules the day.

Lawsuits and threats and lies have been the hallmark of Florida Democrats so long that it almost seems natural.

DLC Democrats rule Florida with an iron thumb. They do not care what is best for the state....only to win at all costs.

[gasperc]

153. oh yeah, now sure while she wayyyy ahead

and pledges not to campaign in Florida and expects Obama and Edwards to do the same.

Obama and Edwards should campaign TOGETHER IN Florida

[krkaufman]

162. A Juan Cole post from December, well worth reading...

http://www.juancole.com/2007/12/michigan-delegates-excluded-from.html

[truebrit71]

163. Not. Gonna. Happen.

Obama and Edwards will sue to keep them out.

Just because HRC can't keep her word doesn't mean that the others should suffer.

[William769]

201. Not one thing you said is factual.

Who are they going to sue? What did Hillary not keep her word on? Inquiring minds want to know!

[robbedvoter]

169. Wow! A candidate caring about the right to vote? I am getting interested.

Remember folks: RNC has solved its similar problems without depriving their members of a meaningful vote. How does that make us look?

[Occam Bandage]

185. So long as it's for her, yes.

[David Zephyr]

171. The Clintons never cease to lower every standard. They should have their own TV series.

What a reality show that would be.

[demo dutch]

197. I think they need to all come to Florida to campaign and be present at the scheduled debate

as a Floridian democrat I've been disenfranchised enough!

[demo dutch]

196. self delete

[oviedodem]

198. To all you Hil supporters:

Is complete and utter BS that she is asking for this now that she sees it's tight.

SHE SHOULD HAVE SAID THIS MONTHS, AND MONTHS AGO WHEN THE DECISION WAS MADE.

It is total crap and EVERYONE OF YOU THAT THINK THIS IS GREAT KNOWS DAMN WELL IT'S NOT.

[robbedvoter]

203. I read Obama's manager guy statement. It was lame from him too.