Florida's REPUBLICANS moved the primary date.

[MediaBabe]

Florida'a majority Republican legislature sent a bill to the Republican governor moving the primary date. There was nothing the Democrats could do to stop the date from being moved. The DNC knew this yet, to keep other states from doing the same thing, dug in their heels and took away the delegates anyway.

Do you think this is fair?

It is very important for us here at DU to find out the facts about some of these important issues before we smear and slime our own candidates for their position.

There was a lot of effort by the Democrats in Florida when the bill was sent to the governor but they couldn't stop it from being signed. Disenfranchising Democrat voters in Florida is not a problem in the eyes of Florida Republicans. Now we are playing right into their hands by infighting and blaming our own candidates.

[meegbear]

1. Link?

[MediaBabe]

13. I will gladly provide a link

About the primary move:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18783378/

Additional information -

Florida's legislature is:

Senate 26 Rep and 14 Dem
House 78 Rep and 42 Dem
Governor Charlie Crist Rep

[meegbear]

29. Thanks ...

:party: WELCOME TO DU!! :party:

[Occam Bandage]

49. That link doesn't remotely prove the assertion. Read downthread.

[MediaBabe]

85. Concrete

I think little I post is going to prove anything to you. But there are others who are willing to read and evaluate and those are the people to whom I speak.

[Occam Bandage]

87. If they're reading/evaluating, they're not believing you. You haven't backed up a single assertion.

[babylonsister]

2. Please provide a link; thanks. nt

[juajen]

3. Hadn't heard this.

No, I do not believe this is fair. I'm sure there will be some wheeling and dealing at the Convention, and all of these state's delegates will be seated.

[Emit]

4. Interesting. I had no idea this was the case.

Thanks for the insight.

You'd think that the DNC could've worked some of this stuff out before the primaries kicked off. Wonder if this ever came up between Florida Democrats and the DNC?

On edit -- Got any links you can provide?

[Occam Bandage]

10. It isn't. The Florida Democratic Party was expressly behind this.

[MediaBabe]

That is not true

Florida's legislature is heavily republican

House - 78 R 42 D
Senate 26 R 14 D
And a republican governor

[Occam Bandage]

26. The legislature is Republican, but the Democrats were in favor of this as well. They voted

unanimously in favor of it. Unanimously. The Democrats demanded the Dem party delay its own primary, and they refused.

[madfloridian]

27. You are not telling the truth. You need to be honest.

"Florida Democrats are all for it"...March 2006. All for the early primary that far ahead.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1564

[LittleClarkie]

97. Oh no, they tried to fight it, really they did... smirk... chortle.

Disingenuous as hell, it was.

[MediaBabe]

25. Link

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18783378/

[madfloridian]

30. That is from May of last year. More truth is out now.

"Florida Democrats are all for it"...March 2006. All for the early primary that far ahead.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1564

[Occam Bandage]

31. That link does not at all back up your claim. House Democrats were unanimous in their support.

[madfloridian]

77. I have many links. Amazing how easily lies are accepted..

[Emit]

110. I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I was accepting this

Now that others have chimed in -- and I am more aware of the info -- I am able to get the real picture here. Thanks for setting the record straight. :hi:

[madfloridian]

116. You are welcome.

:hi:

[Coexist]

5. Please visit Madfloridian's journal for the full story. You are wrong.

I was actually part of my county's DEC when this was going on.

It is the fault of the Florida Democratic Party.

[MediaBabe]

35. How can minority Dems out weigh majority Reps?

Republicans play dirty from the word go. It serves no purpose to blame the Democrats when Republican dirt gets on them.

[Coexist]

37. the FDP did not apply for an early primary - then demanded one.

the DNC offered options, the FDP acted like idiots.

[Occam Bandage]

39. First, they didn't even want to; they voted for it to a man. Second, they had the option to

push back their own primaries; they steadfastly refused. They had the option to apply for early primaries; they refused as well.

[madfloridian]

41. Oh Oh Oh Oh.....I am just going to find some links for you

about the way they laughed their own amendments off the floor of the Florida house and senate. They even laughed at Dean on the floor of the senate.

I will find them and get back to you.

[madfloridian]

43. Here you go.

Gelber admits they did not fight the GOP about the primary.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1468

Florida's Geller joked about his amendment: "sarcasm and audible laughter in chamber"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1461

Details on how Florida worked with the GOP to set the early primary date.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1617

That is only 3, I have lots more.

[demo dutch]

54. Do you think that Geller try to call Dean's bluff? never thinking the DNC

would actually enforce the rules? At this point the way the Dem campaign is going(I mean the on-going bickering might turn off potential Indie votes) I actually think the bypassingof FL is going to do great harm. What do you think?

[madfloridian]

65. I think Florida Democrats tried to be big shots.

They had no right to move ahead of the rest of the states. If they had stayed one week back on Feb. 5, all would have been fine.

I think Florida Dems pushing Hillary thought the media attention gained by moving up ahead of super Tuesday would give their gal a big boost.

I think they dared Dean, they laughed at him, and they tried to humiliate him.

All he did was let the Rules Committee enforce the rules.

FL and MI delegates would insure a win for Hillary unfairly.

[demo dutch]

83. This whole thing might backfire on them. If the bickering continues

Indies will get turned off. I already know several that are pissed enough to vote for McCain. Don;t ask me about that logic but still there's the danger.

[madfloridian]

100. Well, let them.

.

[demo dutch]

120. Well that may be your position, but in light of the recent agreement GW has arranged with

Iraq I think the Dems absolutely MUST win the WH. If this is what is takes so be it.

[1corona4u]

51. You're never going to win this argument...

I pointed this out a long time ago. But a few Florida Dems prefer to blame their own, and forget the fact that they were for it, until they found out the would be penalized. They also were left with no choice but to vote for it, because of the way it was addresed in an omnibus bill.

Read for yourself, and make your own decision. I have, despite what some of the 'other' Floridians here have said. I'm not a democrat, so I guess that's why I can be objective about it.

Read the whole thing;

http://www.fladems.com/page/content/makeitcount-faqs/#q5

[Occam Bandage]

57. The DNC offered the Florida Democratic party a compromise, by which

there would be later caucuses for each district to elect delegates. The party played hardball and rejected it; they wanted it all to be up front.

[1corona4u]

73. No, they said there wasn't enough time to organize it.

That's what they said. They did not 'reject it' just to play hardball.

[Occam Bandage]

82. Which was obvious bullshit.

[1corona4u]

91. In your opinon....

perhaps you're too close to the trees to see the forest.

[1corona4u]

76. No, that is not what they said, they said they didn't have time to organize it..

They did not 'reject it' just to play hardball.

[movonne]

6. The DNC did the right thing...how far can you go moving the

primaries...

[aquart]

7. Bullshit.

DUer MadFloridian has been providing accurate commentary about what went on and it was in total collusion with the Democrats.

[redqueen]

8. That's not how it went, no.

IMO madfloridian has done the most knowledgeable posting on this subject.

Since you're confused, you might want to read her journals on the same.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1459

[Occam Bandage]

9. The vote was unanimous, and the party later agreed to make it binding.

MIAMI, June 11 — Rebuffing pressure from the Democratic National Committee, the Florida Democratic Party decided on Monday to make the results of the presidential primary on Jan. 29 binding.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/12/us/politics/12florida.html

[cali]

11. oh please, dems enthusiastically collaborated with the pukes in Fl

[MediaBabe]

38. Did they have any choice?

Once the die was cast democrats had no choice but to play into republican hands and go along with it. That's the way it's done as we have seen for the past seven years in DC. Republican motto is Play our way or die. Just ask anyone who ever dared disagree with them and lost the next election due to republican dirt.

[Occam Bandage]

44. Yes. They could have voted "no." And the DNC did offer an alternative, in which

Florida could pick delegates in congressional district caucuses after the primary; the state party refused.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2007-12-05-florida-primary_N.htm

[Orangepeel]

117. the DNC even offered to PAY for the caucus

They offered the state $800,000 to cover the expenses.

[1corona4u]

12. I'm sure madfloridian will have something to tell you...

:eyes:

Just wait...

[Coexist]

23. yes, roll your eyes, how dare she continually interject the truth into these discussions.

how crass.

[1corona4u]

42. LOL...

whatever.

[DJ13]

14. Yes its "fair"

All of the major Democratic contenders signed a pledge not to count the delegates in Florida.

Suck it up, and move on.

[DrDan]

18. how can it be considered fair?

why is my vote, as a Florida resident, not important?

[DJ13]

34. Blame your OWN state Democratic Party

They were advised not to try and move the primary, its they who didnt care about your vote counting.

[DrDan]

55. the primary is a state matter . . .

[ieoeja]

101. No, it's not.

Ross Perot's Reform Party, for instance, did not even have state primaries I believe. I think Reformers just showed up at the national convention where they could then vote on their party's nominee. That's how Pat Buchanan was able to steal the party one year.

Republican Party started the same way. In their second presidential election, Lincoln supporters packed the convention hall to the point where many of the "official" Republicans could not enter the building. They ended up with Lincoln shoved down their throats (which turned out okay).

A party can setup whatever rules they want. If the Democratic Party so chose, they could decide each state only gets one vote and that goes to the first resident of that state to ask for the right and who holds a doctorate and whose first name is Dan.

Heck, 20% of the delegates at the national convention aren't elected at all. They are uncommitted party officials who get to cast their votes for whomever.

[DrDan]

105. if that is the case - then why is there so much difference between the states

Iowa vs Nevada vs Florida - all different? Why not a consistent approach for all state parties?

Why should Iowa and New Hampshire and Nevada choose their dates prior to the date Florida prefers?

[ieoeja]

108. Region and Size

The Democratic Party decided to have one primary or caucus in each of the four regions before Super Tuesday: West (Nevada), Midwest (Iowa), Northeast (New Hampshire) and South (South Carolina).

They wanted to go with smaller (but not too small) states in each region because that would be less expensive for the candidates.

This combination hopefully gives candidates with less money and in different regions fairly equal chances at getting some support before heading into Super Tuesday.

[DrDan]

15. the whole thing sucks - I live in Florida and consider myself disenfranchised by the DNC

Why do they dictate when a state decides to have their primary?

I shall not be voting for the candidate of the DNC in the GE. I shall write in the candidate of my choice. To hell with the DNC!!!!

[truebrit71]

17. So the republican plan worked to a tee....brilliant move...

:eyes:

[DrDan]

24. so be it - Dean screwed me as a Fl voter

why should I support his choice?

[madfloridian]

32. Vote Republican. Be happy.

.

[DrDan]

96. there are write-in opportunities

does not need to be a black-white choice

one can still vote for a D

[madfloridian]

104. Not on my ballot.

No there were no such write-in chances.

[DrDan]

121. well - there certainly were in Volusia county during the last GE

One of the methods of disenfranchisement at that time was to throw out any ballot where a candidate was selected and also included a write-in - even though the write-in was the same.

[MediaBabe]

46. Because if you don't the Republicans win

Republicans get angry and unite to retain power.
Democrats get angry and piss in their own shoe.

Because if you don't the unite behind whoever the Democrat choice is, the Republicans will keep the White House. Is that what you want? Is showing you are angry more important than repairing your country?

[DrDan]

53. I would ask the same question of Dean and his grab for power

why should I support him if he has elected to disenfranchise me.

This is still a democracy - he does not get my vote simply because of his position. There is a primary process - which he has decided to make a 48-state process.

Screw him! I will vote for my candidate - even if written in.

[Occam Bandage]

68. Smacking down the FL Dem Party's power grab is not a "power grab" itself.

He's not increasing his own power; he's preventing FL from grabbing more power from the other states. They were the ones who decided to fuck over their own voters.

[ieoeja]

106. Dean didn't make the rules. He didn't even decide to strip your delegates.

The rules were made before Dean was chairman of the DNC. A committee on which Dean doesn't even sit voted to strip your delegates late last year. And a 130 member committee at the national convention will hear the appeal.

Guess what? Your Florida Dems know this. Yet they keep ranting against Dean. That is because they are largely part and parcel of the DLC which hates Howard Dean because (according to them) it is foolish to waste money on elections in places where the GOP has been winning big. The main point in screwing you over was to discredit Dean and, by extension, the 50 State Strategy.

There is circumstantial evidence that the DLC may be a rightwing organization whose original purpose was to either (a) destroy the party from within or (b) move the party far enough to the Right that it doesn't matter which party wins. You can add this MI/FL debacle to that circumstantial evidence.

The DLC strategy did not want the party to even run in most of the congressional districts we picked up last year that returned the House majority to the Democratic Party. Florida voters are the pawns the DLC is using to oppose a strategy that very clearly worked in a big way last election (more of that circumstantial evidence).

Consider that when you decide which side to support in this fight.

Most people on these boards pick a side and start hollering at each other. I am trying not to do that. Hope I have not made you feel like I was.

[truebrit71]

71. Um, no the Florida Dem party screwed youas a FL voter.

...but nice try at projection there...

[leftynyc]

81. What if the delegates get seated? (eom)

[DrDan]

92. if they are seated and given an opportunity to participate,

then I shall certainly vote accordingly

[MediaBabe]

40. Yes it worked.

Republicans eat their own to retain power.
Democrats eat their own to lose power.

Works every time.

[Coexist]

21. The DNC OFFERED EARLY PRIMARY DATES AND FLORIDA DIDN'T APPLY.

Sorry for yelling. I am sick of the misinformation on this fight.

[MediaBabe]

58. Misinformation? LOL Then start a discussion

Whew!

I got more information on this subject in the last ten minutes than I have reading DU the last three weeks. Now I will take time to follow links and read what folks have posted.

[Zueda]

33. It sucks the FL Dems did this but thank god the DNC stood up...

The state of Florida has proven to be a joke when it comes to election process. I do not beleive that FL should be given an oppurtunity to have an early and profound infuence on our primary process until they clean-up their election process...JMHO.

[DrDan]

60. that is fine - and I shall cast my vote appropriately

did you watch the Nevada causus? Did you watch the Iowa caucus? and you call Florida a joke?

[truebrit71]

75. Yup...funny how none of the machines and chads came into play...

...Joke? I'm not laughing.

[slick8790]

48. The primaries are a function of the national party, not of an government, state, federal or

otherwise. The party is completely 100% in charge of how they want to administer primaries. States can choose to abide by these rules, or else they can choose to not have a say in a party's decision. no one says you have be able to vote on who a party nominates.

Have fun writing in your candidate, and enjoy the blame if we get president McCain. To hell with the DNC? Then get off of DEMOCRATIC underground, a site for democrats, i.e. members of the democratic party headed by the DNC.

[DrDan]

62. it is a site for democrats - not a site for the DNC

I will be voting for a democrat - just not the choice of the DNC

and who are you to tell me to get off?

[slick8790]

109. Just someone who can read the rules.

"Who We Are: Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives. Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office. Democratic Underground is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, and comments posted here are not representative of the Democratic Party or its candidates."

That's not a democratic candidate. Thats THE democratic candidate decided by the DNC convention.

[DrDan]

111. ok - so I guess I fit . . . .

I am a Democrat

I am a progressive

I am generally supportive of progressive ideals

and I will be supporting Democratic candidates


and the quote is - "support Democratic candidates for political office" - and I will be doing that!!!!

[slick8790]

114. If you're not supporting the democratic candidate for president, then you're NOT supporting the most

important democratic candidate.

[DrDan]

119. uh . . . perhaps you should reread those rules

exactly what does it say . . . .

[DrDan]

112. so are you challenging me being here in some official capacity?

or are you just a self-appointed membership-policing poster?

[slick8790]

115. Just asking why you're on a message board full of democrats looking to get the democratic candidate

elected to the presidency when you're already an avowed supporter of another write in candidate.

[DrDan]

118. there are many democratic candidates

there are candidates for the senate, candidates for the house, local candidates

[CyberPieHole]

74. Who can blame you? If you are disenfranchised, it's ridiculous to expect your support in the GE...

I don't know what the DNC is thinking in taking this stance, they are punishing the voters of Florida and Michigan...there will be hell to pay if the delegates are not seated at the convention. Both states will be won by the repugs.

[DrDan]

113. exactly!

[truebrit71]

16. Our candidates all agreed NOT to campaign there. Then one of them broke her promise.

THAT'S why there's infighting...because a Clinton lied to the party and the voters.

AGAIN.

[DrDan]

20. Bull - it is Obama's ads that are televised in Florida - not Hillary's

[MediaBabe]

64. Excuse me? Obama broke HIS promise

The only one campaigning and running any ads in Florida is Obama. Unless he had a sex change operation in the last week, there is no 'her' in this equation.

[leftynyc]

84. Excuse me

Obama is the only candidate with ads in Florida. Afraid you'll have to find another reason to hate Clinton.

[truebrit71]

90. Those are National TV buys...

...I have need no additional reasons to dislike Clinton...

[leftynyc]

103. He could have done what

Clinton and Edward did and only do state buys. But Saint Obama must like skirting the rules.

[madfloridian]

19. Oh, that is such a lie. The vote was 115 to 1.

The Democrats planned it with the Republicans, and they all worked happily together.

Then the Democrats sent releases and emails that Dean was stealing our votes.

"Florida Democrats are all for it"...March 2006. All for the early primary that far ahead.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1564

Trust me, you do NOT want to get me started.

[MediaBabe]

66. Thank you for the link to your hournal

I will read it. I may be new here but that just means my mind isn't closed and set in concrete yet.

[babylonsister]

67. Thanks for piping up, madfloridian. I recognize you as the prevailing

wisdom on DU where this issue is concerned. :thumbsup:

[madfloridian]

22. Folks, I think we are being baited.

Keep an eye out.

And do a search on astroturfing when you get time.

[Coexist]

36. I think you are right - these threads are also pushing everything else off Page 1

[madfloridian]

45. I think I know the source.....can't prove yet.

It is like a big joke....let's go to DU and bug them. First they watch the topics that outrage us...then they send clever people to do the dirty work.

[Occam Bandage]

50. pm?

[madfloridian]

52. Not sure enough yet.

I think it may be a Florida group. :shrug:

[Occam Bandage]

59. Wouldn't hold it against you if you were wrong, but I'd understand either way.

[Adelante]

28. Nope

We followed this story very carefully, thanks to Madfloridian, and know what happened.

[demo dutch]

47. It's totally UNFAIR, and I'm pissed. Just think this might actually be the year when Democrats could

finally gain some advantage in Florida, and now the DNC gives full reign to the repukes to claim Florida in the GE. On top of that, they wont show up for the FAU Florida debate which was scheduled for coming Sunday. During last night's GOP debate, the GOP candidates actually behaved curtious towards each othe. I am sure they were trying to send a message to the Florida voters. So sure as hell, with the way things are going if our candicates don't quit the bickering it will piss off a whole bunch conservative leaning voters and Independents in Florida, who will vote for McCain (who surely will be the GOP nominee) with the result that they can kiss Florida goodbye for the GE.

It's a hell of a way to run the system!!!

[madfloridian]

56. Flrorida should not be allowed to vote at all until they learn how

to run an election and until they learn to tell the truth.

[demo dutch]

63. I'm a first time voter, so you might understand how disappointed I am. Do you think

that Geller try to call Dean's bluff? never thinking the DNC
would actually enforce the rules? At this point the way the Dem campaign is going(I mean the on-going bickering might turn off potential Indie votes) I actually think the bypassingof FL is going to do great harm. What do you think?

[madfloridian]

69. I don't care anymore.

I have worked too hard to try to tell the truth about it when all the while the party leaders here kept lying.

The whole thing is a travesty and a mockery.

It just does not matter.

[demo dutch]

72. You don;t think it matters? I mean losing FL could be a disaster

for the Dems! Don't you think? The way it see at this point the GE is theirs to lose.

[madfloridian]

89. So?

Maybe Florida's Bill Nelson should have thought of that sooner. Maybe Wasserman Schultz and Alcee Hastings...and the others should have thought about the party instead of being important.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1774

I am sorry, I just really don't care.

[demo dutch]

98. I care, I don't want another 100 years in Iraq! I want universal healthcare etc etc.

Sorry, but if you don't care why even bother to log to this thread? That's a real shame

[madfloridian]

99. So what do you want me to do?

Pretend it is all ok? That any tactics go if we win? Sorry, I can't do that.

[demo dutch]

102. You're right, however the price that we will pay if we lose is too terrible

to consider. I guess you could leave the country :(

[redqueen]

80. Hey... offtopic I know... but,

how does it feel to be a DU Star? :7

So many of us referred to you immediately... so here's a big THANK YOU for doing so much to educate so many about this issue.

:yourock:

[madfloridian]

93. Thank you,.....I did try.

But in this case it was not enough. Only one Florida blogger has called it like it is...the others have skirted the edges. The Florida media has their own side....making money off the primary. Dean put a stop to that...so they say all kinds of ugly stuff.

I did try. I don't think truth matters anymore.

[babylonsister]

61. Wow. So now Hillary is doing the selfless thing, for the party?

:rofl: Nice spin you have there! :rofl:

[robbedvoter]

79. Fighting for the right to vote gets my attention. More than the 2 Johns did in 2004.

[LittleClarkie]

70. Any sincere effort on the side of the Democrats would have been enough

for the DNC to give them a break.

But it was pretty obvious at the time that the Democrats were fully behind this. Any token effort they took to stop it was made with a smirk on their face. They fooled no one.

[robbedvoter]

78. It's unfair even if Florida Dems were guilty of something. Voters should NOT

have to be punished for this kind of stuff. Period.
Fine the guilty. Censure them haze them Whatever. Do not mess with voting rights - this is a constitutional right. You do that, you might as well change the name of the party.

[redqueen]

86. I think the delegates will be awarded on some proportional basis...

but I doubt they'll go directly as voted in FL.

[MediaBabe]

88. I agree

Every effort of the national party should be for the people, the voter.

When the party is put ahead of the people then things like the Bush Administration is the result.

[demo dutch]

94. I agree to. It's wrong for the party to decide things especially since they

also have their super delegates. The party has made it's pick and in the process other candidates and voters are disenfranchised in Florida AGAIN!. In the end voters may not have a say at all. It's wrong and undemocratic.

[1corona4u]

95. Yep.

[dionysus]

107. explain why all but 1 dem voted for it ....