The Nation: "Obama... to the right of not only populist Edwards but Clinton as well"

[lwcon]

"As he has done on domestic issues like healthcare, job creation and energy policy, Obama is staking out a position to the right of not only populist Edwards but Clinton as well."
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080211/fraser

More about Obama's rejection of the progressive reality here:
http://www.correntewire.com/tags/barack_obama

[jlake]

1. Finally, some coverage of this inconvenient truth.

[asthmaticeog]

3. Um, this *still* doesn't make Hillary any great prize, you know.

But I guess you're satisfied with "sucks slightly less," eh?

[jlake]

6. I am proud of Hillary and I agree with her on almost everything. The point is

that she is seen as right wing and Obama as some progressive angel. The facts speak otherwise.

[asthmaticeog]

23. You're right. They're BOTH right-wing. nt

[RC]

26. I've been saying this all along. Hillary is a DINO.

Obama is their backup. One or the other will be the place holder till 2012 when the crimes start again.

[rodeodance]

115. Ha Ha--looks like OBoma wants that label of DINO

[7 of 11]

52. The why do the reopukes hate her so bad?

They are terrified of her! Why?

If it wasnt for Obama I would be a Hillary supporter but she does come in a close second in my book and I would fully support her as a running mate.

So tell, me is she is so right wing why do the repukes hate her so much?

[New Dawn]

61. Because right-wing voters are idiots

However, look at all of the millionaires and billionaires who are dumping money into both Hillary and Obama's campaigns. That is the real evidence that they are both right of center (economically).

http://www.opensecrets.org/

[asthmaticeog]

62. She's not as far to the right as a dispensationalist Christian maniac.

Which in their book makes her a liberal - the only book she could POSSIBLY count as a liberal in. But in fiscal policy, she and her little man are far right enough to fuck the working class just fine. He already did it, now she wants her turn, clearly.

[RaleighNCDUer]

65. Just because they SAY they're terrified of her doesn't mean they ARE.

The strategists see Hillary as the easy one to beat. Obama, slightly less so.

Edwards, the one they refuse to even acknowledge, is the one they fear.

[Ken Burch]

75. Because she's one of them wimmenfolks who ain't barefoot 'n pregnant.

And they can't handle it that she's had a career on her own.

Secretly, they hate Condi just as much.

If they don't hate Ann Coulter, it's because they have as much trouble believing she's a woman as the rest of us.

Next question

[Political Heretic]

91. The same reason they hate the "LEFT WING" media.

:eyes:

[beezlebum]

121. because right-ingers

think women should be barefoot & preggers in the kitchen. wink wink nudge nudge

and actually, come to think of it, in my own personal experience i have had republican friends and neighbors tell me they would support hillary if certain republicans got the gop nom., which reinforced my unwillingness to support her. but i'll not take the "some say" route, only sayin.

[thesquanderer]

137. Two reasons, I think

For one thing, I think the right has this reflexive hate of all things Clinton, dating back to the days of Bill.

But also, they think she's liberal, and that her less liberal positions (Iraq war, patriot act, kyl-lieberman, flag burning, etc.) are political posturing, and that if she becomes president, we'll see the "real" liberal Hillary.

I think it's a reason she has such high negatives and is not the strongest candidate for November. The right doesn't like her because they feel her less liberal positions aren't sincere... many on the left don't like her because they feel those less liberal positions *are* sincere.

[Cant trust em]

97. Let's be fair

the right-wing of the left. Dick Cheney is right wing. Let's put things in perspective.

[asthmaticeog]

98. He's much farther right than she is, it's true.

Nevertheless, that doesn't make her *not* right wing. Because she categorically is. There is not one position she advances that even approaches liberal.

[Leopolds Ghost]

140. There's nothing left about wanting to destroy public housing after Katrina and end the New Deal

As her husband did with deregulation of banking, electricity, telecoms, elimination of people from the welfare rolls and invention of HOPE VI and "retraining" away from a multitier manufacturing economy with good wages across the board, to a low-paid two-tier FIRE and service retail economy.

[earth mom]

100. Bingo! nt

[debbierlus]

130. Vote Edwards

At least he is proposing some sane policies....

But, the American media has turned this into a two person race with the historic running of a woman & black man who could actually win. Policy be damned.

Lemmings.

[lwcon]

33. I'm not a Hillary supporter, but I strongly agree with you...

See: http://www.correntewire.com/triangulation_the_next_generation

[jackson_dem]

39. Yup

[RaleighNCDUer]

64. Yeah. Fact is they are BOTH to the right of Edwards. nt

[thunder rising]

133. This posting is a shallow hack only believed by those that will not be convinced otheriwise.

[lwcon]

12. You're halfway right

Edwards sucks a lot less.

They're all relatively similar on the issues, but Obama keeps embracing rightwing talking points, which seriously disempowers progressives, and he's leaning increasingly rightward.

Edwards is moving assuredly more and more leftward.

Hillary is pretty much where she's been since she got to the Senate. A so-called centrist (as adjusted by the Overton Window) to be where yesterday's conservative was, with her maybe starting to nudge back to the left a little.

With all three relatively similar on platforms, I'm voting for Edwards -- the one who is most prepared to reshape the national debate to the modern reality:

http://www.correntewire.com/when_is_it_our_turn

[dchill]

44. "moving assuredly more and more leftward."

toward the rest of us.

[bjobotts]

96. No, I'm satisfied with not as progressive as I'd like. 1000X better than any repuke

[thunder rising]

134. Bush still has 29% of people believing in him. Hillary will fire Howard Dean to consolidate power

[Jamastiene]

108. Great post. n/t

[ecstatic]

2. Obama's record is way more progressive than Edwards.I smell BS nt

[paulk]

11. the article is talking about campaign proposals, not voting

records. Obama's proposals aren't as progressive as Edward's or even Hillary's, but you could make the case that his voting record is to the left of Edward's. It's virtually the same as Clinton's.

[sam sarrha]

18. .. LINK>> what were the more than 100 "Present" votes hide about his character

http://zmagsite.zmag.org/Feb2007/street0207.html

[RaleighNCDUer]

66. You are still hawking those wares?

Sorry, nobody's buying.

EDIT: I just read the article you linked, and there is PLENTY of good reasons in it for not supporting Obama - why dredge up the bogus "100 'present' votes", which is easily debunked by anyone who knows how that works in the Illinois senate?

[TankLV]

124. on the contrary - WE welcome the TRUTH, unlike you cultists...

[kurth]

4. Obama is the Neville Chamberlain of the Democratic Party

Fuck unity with the GOP.

[femrap]

16. Obama is repugnant-lite.

PU...just because he's Afro-American, doesn't make him progressive or even a Democrat. All I see is a nice smile...that does NOT make a leader who truly cares about We, the People.

I swear he has found his long lost Poppa in The Corporation. I don't trust him.

[FiveGoodMen]

47. "Fuck unity with the GOP" -- Couldn't agree more!

:applause:

[lwcon]

48. I just heard Republican frontrunner John McCain...

... getting Gov. Charlie Crist's (D-FL) endorsement. McCain just used the term "Democrat Party."

These fine folks won't even say the correct name of our party -- it's a well-known dig, perhaps to deny the association between the party name and the adjective "Democratic." But they're really going to change their stripes when it comes to Congressional votes. Right.

You might like this:

http://correntewire.com/the_sorry_news_sorry_about_bipartisanship

[yorkiemommie1]

76. I heard that too and emailed McCain about his 'error'

which I don't believe was an error at all!

[debbierlus]

129. Unity with the GOP is a GROSS concept.

Let's hold hands & play nice & pretend they haven't been actively destroying this nation for the past eight years....and longer....

Kumbayfuckingyah.

[redqueen]

144. Bipartisanship = Date Rape.

Nuff said.

[krkaufman]

60. From what I've heard, he isn't looking to UNITE with the Rethug. Party ...

... only that we're going to need to attract Independents and *some* historically Republican voters, in order to create a working majority that can actually get something done. I doubt he has any expectation that he can win over any of the 25%ers, nor does he need to. (Hell, even FDR had 30% of the country against him.)

[AX10]

86. True.

[Jim Sagle]

5. He's a Republican agent, plain and simple.

He's so much worse than Clinton. Clinton is a corporatist Democrat whose compromises have weakened us. Obama intends to put the Democratic Party out of its misery once and for all.

[readmoreoften]

51. Agreed.

Neo-con support for Obama via the likes of Kristol and Kagan have made me utterly suspicious. They see a silver lining in him. This election will be Obama/McCain vs McCain/Obama far as I can see...

[Seabiscuit]

84. Strange the support he gets from the extreme right makes one wonder. nt.

[sam sarrha]

7. here's smore ..>>Link>>

http://zmagsite.zmag.org/Feb2007/street0207.html

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&resnum=0&q=tony+rezko+obama&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=news_result&resnum=1&ct=title

[rodeodance]

14. The press is giving him more scrutiny

[midnight]

71. They are going to open up wide, and go after him.

[msongs]

8. obama has a lock on the proud christian fundie anti gay vote in dem primaries nt

[lwcon]

22. That was easy for him, since he's on a mission from Jesus

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/01/21/obama/index.html

[TankLV]

125. yep...still waiting for his "outreach" to the WHITE RACISTS...

crickets chirping...

[babylonsister]

9. So explain this:

http://www.majorityrules.org/blog/2007/03/senator-barack-obama-more-liberal-than.html

Senator Obama also has a higher liberal rating than any other Senator running for President this year. The National Journal has just released its 2006 annual ratings of Congress based on roll call votes on key economic, social and foreign policy issues.

When the New York Times political blog compared their lifetime scores they came up with the following ranking:

Senator Barack Obama......................84.3
Representative Dennis Kucinich........79.4
Senator Christopher J. Dodd .............79.2
Senator Hiliary Rodham Clinton ......78.8
Senator Joseph R. Biden, Jr...............76.8

more...

[lwcon]

17. My concern is not so much that his heart belongs to the right wing...

But that his rhetoric does.

His insistence that the problem in DC is a bickering food fight and not the rape of the country by the runaway conservative movement is exactly what the GOP and MSM want us to be saying. And it's far to the right of what most Americans now believe.

It's a sleazy, disempowering, self-aggrandizing tactic to put himself "above" partisanship, and in so doing, giving a clean slate to today's ruthless, corrupt, incompetent, and valueless Repubican Party.

I'm not saying he has to quote the name of Al Franken's fictitious follow-up to "Lies and the Lying Liars": "I Fucking Hate These Rightwing Motherfuckers."

But he should stop needlessly suggesting that we're living in some Tip O'Neill theme park where there is anything across the aisle other than a shark.

http://www.correntewire.com/tags/barack_obama

[DeepBlueC]

56. hear, hear

That's how I see it.

[anamandujano]

78. Thank you!

"His insistence that the problem in DC is a bickering food fight and not the rape of the country by the runaway conservative movement is exactly what the GOP and MSM want us to be saying. And it's far to the right of what most Americans now believe.

It's a sleazy, disempowering, self-aggrandizing tactic to put himself "above" partisanship, and in so doing, giving a clean slate to today's ruthless, corrupt, incompetent, and valueless Repubican Party."

[Duke Newcombe]

94. ...

...my sig says all that needs to be said regarding this mindset...

[Hobarticus]

117. Well said, well spoken...eom

[femrap]

20. This is just based on 2006....

He knew he had to vote that way to run for Prez. Look where he is getting his $$$$. And how many times did he 'not' vote?

I just don't trust the man...I don't think he truly cares about We, the People...he worked for social justice because he could, not because he really wanted to. Now that is just my impression, my gut feel about the man, and nothing has changed it.

In fact, his words about Reagan made me trust him even less....he was so cagey with his Reagan statement...so at the debate, he could say....'Well, I didn't say his ideas were good.' Talk about a sleazy tactic....this was planned. He doesn't do a thing unless it is planned. I don't feel he is talking from his heart...he has a great speech writer and he give a good speech but when debating, I see no articulation, no eloquent phrasing...

I will be so sad if he wins the nomination...yet I will have no choice but to vote for him. And to be frank, I get the feeling that he doesn't think his poop stinks. Just my opinion.

[lwcon]

21. Amen n/t

[jackson_dem]

38. And look at who he is surrounding himself as his economic advisers. If you guys hated Bill Clinton..

[Leopolds Ghost]

141. Who are his economic advisers? Free-traders? deregulatiors? Pro-HOPE VI and welfare reform?

[jackson_dem]

40. Does anyone believe Obama is more progressive than Kucinich?

And that Clinton and Biden are as progressive as Kucinich? That rating is a joke.

[robbedvoter]

10. Coming from Clinton hating Nation - that's some big hit!

[xchrom]

13. the nation has indeed been known to criticize both clintons.

[robbedvoter]

24. and make up stories like mena, drugs - Hunting of the President gives them

a place in the hunt

[AntiFascist]

110. What are these "made up stories" about Mena reported in the Nation?

I think the truth about Mena having been a major center for Iran/Contra operations are being widely reported, and not just by conspiracy sites.

[avaistheone1]

15. Obama's energy plan for the country is laughable.

Nuclear, coal and E-85. All either bad for the environment or for people.

Obama has taken alot of money from these interests too.

[lwcon]

19. Great analysis (but not great spelling) from OpenLeft:

http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=3434

Obama Is Abosolutely Right

Obama is abosolutely right that we stand at a time of historic possibility for fundamental change-if anything, he under-estimates howe much this is so.

He is also absolutely right that he is the perfect figure to lead us in a new direction. He doesn't have a lot baggage, he is someone that young people can identify with, he is not deeply embedded in a Washington culture that is far removed from the real pulse of the country. But...

Obama Is Abosolutely Wrong

Obama is absolutely wrong in his fundamental political analysis. The problem in America today is not a polarized political system in which Democrats and liberals are as equally to blame as Republicans and conservatives. The problem is a political system that's dominated by this sort of brain-dead political narrative. And the longer that Obama promulgates such brain-dead political narratives, the more he squanders his enormous potential.

This sort of brain-dead political narrative dominates our political system because it's highly beneficial to the right wing, which has positioned itself to have veto power over such things. It's not the ideal narrative for them. "Democrats are the source of all evil, and should be hunted down like dogs" is the ideal narrative for them.

But they will happily settle for a dominant narrative that says it is equally reasonable-and equally divisive-to say "Democrats are the source of all evil, and should be hunted down like dogs" or to say "no, we're not, we're just sorta stupid, is all."

This is what the right wing will settle for now.

[stickernation]

72. why i broke with the anarchist mafia

i hate and despise the memes "the two big parties are both evil", "the two big parties are exactly the same", "the two big parties are two heads of the same beast" etc.

i believe these memes are why Al Gore is not President today. He never rallied the Democratic tradition of the Democratic Party as a candidate. Now, he's doing great. But in 1999, nothing !!!

but the two parties are NOT the same... YET....

[Barack_America]

25. That is such bullshit. Based on what?? He's way more progressive than Hillary. n/t

[RC]

28. They are peas in a pod. Both DINO's

We have 3 front runners. Hillary, Obama and Edwards. And who does our liberal news media cover? Only 2 of the 3. The Liberal is ignored. Guess which one that is?

[jackson_dem]

41. Based on a comparision of their platforms

Way more progressive than Hillary? He voted with her 90% of the time and has the same voting record. He went further to the right when he started running nationally. This is a pattern with him. As he seeks to win votes over a more diverse ideological spectrum he has moved to the right. Think of his change from his small Chicago district to a state, a liberal state, and now the entire nation. How far right will he be by the general election?

[readmoreoften]

53. Your analysis is astute--even for an Obama supporter. /nt

[Hobarticus]

118. Because you say so? eom

[inna]

27. oh boy~ thank you guys!!

this forum absolutely kicks ass. in the last few weeks, i have been getting ALL of my news/links here, and it's been truly illuminating.

(in fact, i "discovered" (and became a huge supporter of!) Edwards here, just a few weeks ago.

i never particularly cared about him in 2004 and - thanks to our dear corporate media - i had NO idea that (or why) his platform was vastly more

progressive than that of Clinton AND Obama.

[lwcon]

32. Wonderful to hear. Thanks! n/t

[stravu9]

29. The Nation is a pretty good mag.

I tend to take their word.

[JDPriestly]

74. Welcome to DU

[rodeodance]

131. Yes, it is one I read consistantly

[Avalux]

30. Hey, that second link you provided is really good objective journalism.

:rofl:

[usregimechange]

31. Who has a better ACLU rating of all canidates save DK.

[jackson_dem]

42. ACLU has 0 to do with economic policy

[Adelante]

34. Ratings

Americans for Democratic Action (ADA) (from 2001-2006)
http://www.adaction.org/votingrecords.htm

Obama 97.5
Clinton 95.8
Dodd 94.1
Biden 91.6
Edwards 82.5

ACLU Congressional Scorecard
http://action.aclu.org/site/VoteCenter?page=voteList

Kucinich Lifetime score: 89%
Obama Lifetime score: 82%
Clinton Lifetime score: 75%
Edwards Lifetime score: 50%

National Journal
http://nationaljournal.com/voteratings/pdf/06democrats.pdf

Obama 84.3
Dodd 79.2
Clinton 78.8
Biden 76.8
Edwards 75.7

Progressive Punch (lifetime)
http://www.progressivepunch.org%20/

Clinton 92%
Obama 90%
Dodd 87%
Biden 84%

VoteSmart
http://www.vote-smart.org/

AFL-CIO
Clinton 93% Edwards 100%
Obama 93% McCain 7%

ALLIANCE FOR RETIRED AMERICANS
Clinton 100% Edwards 100%
Obama 100% McCain 20%

AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION
Clinton 83% Edwards 60%
Obama 83% McCain 33%

AMERICAN CONSERVATIVE UNION
Clinton 8% Edwards 13%
Obama 8% McCain 65%

AMERICAN WILDERNESS COALTION
Clinton 100%
Obama 100% McCain 16%

AMERICANS FOR DEMOCRATIC ACTION
Clinton 95% Edwards 65%
Obama 95% McCain 16%

AMERICANS FOR PROSPERITY
Clinton 0%
McCain 100%

AMERICAN PUBLIC HEALTH ASSOCIATION
Clinton 100% Edwards 100%
Obama 100% McCain 40%

AMERICAN NURSES ASSOCIATION
Clinton 100%
Obama 100% McCain 20%

AMERICANS FOR THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH & STATE
Clinton 100%
Obama 100% McCain 33%

AM. SOCIETY FOR PREVENTION OF CRUELTY TO ANIMALS
Clinton 100% Edwards 60%
McCain 20%

ANIMAL HUMANE SOCIETY OF U.S.
Clinton 100% Edwards 60%
Obama 60% McCain 40%

BRADY CAMPAIGN TO PREVENT GUN VIOLENCE
Clinton 100% Edwards 77%
McCain 14%

CHILDREN’S DEFENSE FUND
Clinton 100% Edwards 91%
Obama 100% McCain 10%

CITIZENS FOR GLOBAL SOLUTIONS
Clinton A+ Edwards 53%
Obama A+ McCain B+

DEFENDERS OF WILDLIFE
Clinton 100%
Obama 100% McCain 40%

DISABLED AMERICAN VETERANS
Clinton 80% Edwards 66%
Obama 80% McCain 20%

LEAGUE OF CONSERVATION VOTERS
Clinton 95% Edwards 37%
Obama 100% McCain 29%

NAACP
Clinton 96% Edwards 94%
Obama 100% McCain 7%

NARAL PRO CHOICE:
Clinton 100% Edwards 100%
Obama 100% McCain 0%

NATIONAL ORGANIZATION OF WOMEN
Clinton 96%
Obama 91% McCain 13%

NATIONAL EDUCATION ASSOCIATION
Clinton 100% Edwards 100%
Obama 100% McCain 0%

NATIONAL FARMERS UNION
Clinton 83% Edwards 80%
Obama 100% McCain 0%

NATIONAL RIGHT TO LIFE
Clinton 0% Edwards 0%
Obama 0% McCain 75%

NATIONAL RIFLE ASSOCIATION
Clinton F
McCain C+

NATIONAL COMMITTEE FOR A MORE EFFECTIVE CONGRESS
Clinton 95% Edwards 95%
Obama 95% McCain 20%

NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF SOCIAL WORKERS
Clinton 100% Edwards 88%
Obama 100% McCain 60%

PLANNED PARENTHOOD:
Clinton 100% Edwards 100%
Obama 100% McCain 0%

UNITED AUTO WORKERS
Clinton 93% Edwards 75%
Obama 85% McCain 9%

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=4044288

[tranche]

70. Thank you for this!

Cuts the spin a bit...

[Bread and Circus]

35. As an a pround and ardent Obama supporter I read the article

you posted. I appreciate the link and the Nation's perspective. I didn't read anything in there to budge my support for him or anything that seems like news to me. It seemed as if the whole article really boiled down to the approach to the subprime mortgage issue and how to handle it. I'd actually love people on DU to debate that issue and how best to handle it, for sure.

However, the extrapolation from what to do about interest rate freezes in a very narrow scenario to "rightward" on all things as the Nation and you suggest is just not supported in the article with any evidence or persuasive rhetoric. It's more of an assertion than a line of reasoning.

Some of this is just plain "demagoguery" to invoke the bogeyman response. Alas, it does work.

I think when you really read each of their policy statements and campaing promises, they are all qualitatively the same. Sure, Edwards uses a much more pointed tone but the practical nuts and bolts of what they want to do are as different as shades of grey.

Another question you really gotta ask is who is going to be able to create a workable coalition to actually get stuff done.

It's kind of silly to try to paint Obama as a Republican given his voting record, aclu record, women reproductive rights records are excellent and often exceed Clinton and Edwards.

I think the record matters.

[Bread and Circus]

36. As an a pround and ardent Obama supporter I read the article

you posted. I appreciate the link and the Nation's perspective. I didn't read anything in there to budge my support for him or anything that seems like news to me. It seemed as if the whole article really boiled down to the approach to the subprime mortgage issue and how to handle it. I'd actually love people on DU to debate that issue and how best to handle it, for sure.

However, the extrapolation from what to do about interest rate freezes in a very narrow scenario to "rightward" on all things as the Nation and you suggest is just not supported in the article with any evidence or persuasive rhetoric. It's more of an assertion than a line of reasoning.

Some of this is just plain "demagoguery" to invoke the bogeyman response. Alas, it does work.

I think when you really read each of their policy statements and campaing promises, they are all qualitatively the same. Sure, Edwards uses a much more pointed tone but the practical nuts and bolts of what they want to do are as different as shades of grey.

Another question you really gotta ask is who is going to be able to create a workable coalition to actually get stuff done.

It's kind of silly to try to paint Obama as a Republican given his voting record, aclu record, women reproductive rights records are excellent and often exceed Clinton and Edwards.

I think the record matters.

[dailykoff]

37. Bingo. It's a molehill.

The records are what count and that's where Obama flattens Hilly and Edwards both.

[jackson_dem]

43. Obama's record of moving to the right as his audience becomes more diverse?

[Gloria]

45. The Nation finally informs us.....better late than never!

[TriMetFan]

46. He is also behind Hillary in the.........

Congressional Quarterly. Hillary was ranked in the top 10 (#6) Senators that had the most anti-votes Bush and Obama was somewhere like #17.

[tandem5]

49. thanks for the post nt

[amborin]

50. Obama likes Republican policies, let's face it

For Obama to have praised rethugs and Reagan....to have said they're the party of ideas, etc...is outrageously unacceptable

he tried to squirm out of his statements in the last debate....unsuccessfully

it's no surprise that the truth is out....the nation's analysis is excellent, shows what a vote for Obama would mean for a progressive agenda

as for Edwards....the guy has changed his positions so many times, hard to know where he'd end up.....and he's thin on experience and record.....just because he's filed suit on behalf of plaintiffs, doesn't translate to any capability of taking on corporations politically

[Danger Mouse]

54. Obama wasn't praising the Republicans when he called them the party of ideas!

What he said was true...they were the party of ideas, they had a strong and cohesive message which helped them get elected...the strength of the Republicans has always been their unity.
That's not saying that their ideas were GOOD ones...Obama even went on to say that we've seen that the Republicans' ideas didn't work, they had their chance, and it's time for a different direction.
But don't let that get in the way of blatant distortions or anything.

[onehandle]

55. Amen! nt

[DirtyDawg]

57. As I've said before....

...When the David Brooks and the George Wills keep saying good things about him, you know something's fishy. What is it they know that we don't, cause they surely aren't interested in helping a Democrat into the White House.

[lwcon]

59. The other day I heard Rush Limbaugh...

say that he “likes” Obama, and he gave “Barry” an earful of advice about how to beat the contemptible Clintons.

Plus both Rupert Murdoch's WSJ and the execrable Maureen Dowd are on the Obamawagon.

Yes, some people I like have endorsed him, but at least as many people I trust as far as I could throw (and whom I'd be happy to test that theory out on) are murmuring their approval, too.

[libbygurl]

112. How and wherefrom did he raise 100 mill dollars in so short a time, btw? nt

[ToughLuck]

58. Edwards best of the 3

My choice candidate is Edwards and he would need a miracle for him to win now. With all his faults, I will take Obama, less the hawk than Hillary.

[Joe Fields]

63. Obama is going to vote for the thought crime bill.

That says enough for me, right there. How any progressive can vote for him is way beyond any rationale.

[Mithreal]

107. Why not post this in an op?

I am curious how Obama supporters defend this. I will do a lil more studying of this in the next couple days.

[mistertrickster]

67. I've subscribed to The Nation for years. But, screw them.

MSNBC just pointed out that Obama got more votes in this election than were CAST for all candidates four years ago.

Obama is pulling Republicans and Independents and Liberals and Conservatives together like never before.

Maybe that means that some our over-valued ideology will be sacrificed for a new-found sense of community.

I willing to take that risk.

[mistertrickster]

68. BTW, who voted to give Commander Cod Piece authority to go to war in Iraq?

Hint: Not Obama.

[NMMNG]

150. Obama wasn't in the senate at the time of the IWR

So there's no way he could have voted on it.

But he's never voted "no" on any war funding during his tenure.

[Dhalgren]

153. And in an open primary that means exactly zero. Open primaries are

notorious for skewing the support levels during the primary, but come the general, the votes run truer. Anyone can vote in the SC primary - those numbers, in themselves, strike me as suspicious and odd...

[Tom Joad]

69. there is tough competition there for the most extreme rightist, and certainly Hillary is giving

Obama a run for his money in that regard. I think its a tie.
corporate clowns the both of them.

[in_cog_ni_to]

73. And that is why I'm not voting for him. He's no Progressive.

I sure as hell am not in the mood to play nice with repukes either. That's Barack's entire agenda...bring the country together. After what they have done to this country and the world? I don't think so.

[amborin]

77. empty rhetoric

"bring the country together"

"change"

who falls for these empty slogans, anyway?

they're meaningless

and, who'd want to be together with anti-roe v wade types, anyway?

or with those who want to ram their religion down the throats of supposedly free citizens?

such campaign b.s.

anyone who forgets or is unaware that fighting for citizens' rights is a harsh struggle is either painfully naive or disingenuous or worse

sounds like the nonsense big corporations try to use to con union leaders into giving up workers' right, this whole notion of "togetherness" and "jointness" a big love fest, all the while they're screwing workers

Obama is such an idiot

otherwise.....Hillary Clinton is more progressive than any other candidate except Kucinich

for starters, let's not forget she's been fighting for universal health insurance for a long time

[in_cog_ni_to]

80. I'm still trying to figure out why so many people here on DU, PROGRESSIVES, who want Cheney and the

psycho IMPEACHED, are supporting someone who has no intentions of EVER doing such a thing. He won't investigate...that would push us farther apart, you know. :eyes: All the things we have been railing against for 7+ years will go unpunished and his DU supporters seem not to care about that. WTF? It's strange. Really strange. The man is a MODERATE. He's nowhere near to being a Progressive. I always thought we supported the Progressive agenda here. Obviously, many here don't.:(

[lwcon]

81. I agree bigtime

His record holds up as at least comparable to the other candidates, but he's made keeping the mellow unharshed into the nation's most urgent problem, as opposed to, say, the need for truth and reconciliation. Without the truth part, George Santayana owns our asses.

The focal point of his campaign is to make us *not* smell the smell that's been coming out of DC since Nixon arrived. We're just supposed to admire the emperor's new perfume.

___

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[Czolgosz]

79. kick because it is important

[muyojoe]

82. ABOUT TIME

No one talks about how right wing this guys talking points are. He'll get my vote if he gets the nom, but he's my least favorite of the three. He won't get my vote for nom.

[Seabiscuit]

83. Finally someone in the media is taking notice of the Obama fluff. He's not a friend to progressives.

Good articles. nt

[Political Heretic]

93. Neither is Hillary. Neither was Kerry. Neither was Gore. Neither was Clinton.

....so what else is new. You're still going to advocate holding your nose and voting for the nominee, I'm sure. And that's probably what I will do.

So acting all hysterical about the fact that our two front-runners are moderates is not exactly necessary.

[AX10]

85. "Subprime Obama" is right.

He talks the talk but does not even attempt to walk the walk.
If 90% of the Obamites at DU had integrity, they would be rallying with Edwards.

[Tatiana]

87. Obama is a centrist, like Clinton. n/t

[Duke Newcombe]

95. and a continuation...

...of the centrist push that won us the house. I have no problem with this.

[lwcon]

99. Winning Congress with Bush Dog accommodationist Democrats

Has meant that we've lost every major battle in the 110th Congress.

Darcy Burner is right. We need more and better Democrats.

___

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[Leopolds Ghost]

142. "Centrist"? You mean center-right

The Overton Window



http://www.swordscrossed.org/node/53

[Duke Newcombe]

155. Make no mistake...

..."our side" utilizes the same methodology for propagating the acceptance of "our" issues into government and society (what their "R2" is can be balanced with our "L2").

If I accept your scale above, a little L1-R1 is acceptable to me.

The candidates in the last House election that brought us into power were L1-0. But then again, it's convenient to ignore this.

Duke

[mzmolly]

88. Obama's message is to "unite" the country. This message obviously appeals to many.

I think he's a phenomenal candidate/person/man and I'll gladly support him if he gets the nomination. After all, he's "left" of the Republican candidates. ;)

[zulchzulu]

89. Perhaps since Obama respects the constitutionality problems with mandatory rate freezes...

Yeah, yeah, yeah...

Edwards and Clinton want to feel good and assume people are stupid by saying there should be a mandatory moratorium and rate freezes on mortgages and loans and force lenders to hold loan interest rates below market levels, which would delay the return of liquidity.

It would also delay and make people who took out bad subprime loans dig even deeper in debt.

There are also immense constitutional issues when you have the government changing the terms of mortgage contracts by the millions after the contracts have been set.

At what rate will the government enforce for five years? What about consumers that would like competition on loan rates that have to wait for five years before getting competitive choices?

Does being "progressive" these days mean making the government control the very nature and competitiveness for consumers to be able to choose loans without Big Mother looking over their shoulder?

[Political Heretic]

92. What constitutionality problems?

There are also immense constitutional issues when you have the government changing the terms of mortgage contracts by the millions after the contracts have been set.

Um... those may be issues, but how are those constitutional issues?

[zulchzulu]

105. Perhaps you don't understand the issue

Having the government enforce mandatory freezes on credit loan and mortgage rates that have already been contracted is a huge mess legally. It is the very antithesis of free and fair business practices. It would be fought in courts for years and guess who gets richer on that scheme...

[TankLV]

126. so were all those wage and price freezes of the 70's illegal, too? NO!

a strong president - not obama - WILL and CAN do such things when they're in the best interests of the country...

and "free and fair business practices" means CRAP when those practices are CHEATING, LYING AND STEALING like they have been for years...but we expect as much from an inicted slumlord's main lawyer and buddy and working partner...

[Leopolds Ghost]

152. No, because contract law depends on two sources: common law (civil law) and statute.

Contract law is a form of common law that precedes government involvement
in anything and so does not depend on state recognition (only court recognition).

But this depends on an elaborate system of state PROTECTION designed
mainly to benefit the BANKS and keep them from going under in such a
way that customers would have to get their money back.

A bank only has standing to protest a rate freeze in civil courts, as a
matter of damages, and only if they are stupid enough not to put a clause
in their civil contract saying "and/or prsuant to US statute", such as
anti-usury law.

Of course, they could claim it violated an implied right to
freedom of private property and freedom of contract, which is like
freedom from usury an implied right that predates the constitution.

While it is true that common law (contracts) predate and often supervene
on government (statute),

One can't take government out of the picture without removing the
other statutes that BENEFIT corporations to the exclusion of individuals.

Corporate personhood, for example, or allowing banks to become multinational
FIRE conglomerates and using the power of the state to enforce said (usurious) contracts.

Does being "progressive" these days mean making the government
control the very nature and competitiveness for consumers to be able
to choose loans without Big Mother looking over their shoulder?

You make it sound like a level playing field with a diversity of
positive outcomes, wherein some "consumers" will want to pay more
and some "consumers" (you must mean citizens) will want to avoid
usury of the sort I am dealing with since a giant conglomerate took
over my local bank (and had the gov't-granted freedom to do so
WITHOUT asking me, and yet you'd claim I can't litigate for my
funds and customer info, or the prescription info at your family
pharmacy being transferred to a national chain
because the "constitutional problems" in your Overton window
only work to the advantage of lenders and the propertied class.)

[Leopolds Ghost]

145. "force lenders to hold loan interest rates below market levels" you mean reinstitute USURY laws?

3000 year tradition of anti-usury laws in Western society

That Nixon suspended?

Fuck that "market supremacy" bullshit:

[redqueen]

149. Wow. I can't believe this has to be pointed out... how unbelievably frickin sad.

*sigh*

[emilyg]

90. Kick

[Radical Activist]

101. That article lacks substance.

It has no more than two or three sentences telling us what Obama's plan is, and I don't even trust those few words considering the slant of the writer. It mostly plays the same guilt by association games and puts a spin on Obama's speeches to paint him as a conservative, instead of discussing his actual policy positions.

Here's a hint: you can get a lot more progressive policies passed if you use language that appeals to moderates and conservatives. That doesn't mean you've become a conservative yourself.

[dschmott]

104. You see things very clearly here Radical Activist - good observation

[Mithreal]

109. I enthusiastically agree, you can sell Progressive ideas to Conservatives

Michael Moore in Dude, Where's My Country talks about how to talk to Republicans, some good ideas in that book. If that is what Obama is doing then good for him and us.

[peacock]

102. Edwards is the ONLY progressive

still in the race. I´m standing with JRE.

[deacon]

103. Obama and Hillary are both DINO's. n/t

[zulchzulu]

106. As a Nation subscriber, I'd like to see the constitutionality of mandated interest rate freezes

What are the parameters that the government would wage on banking institutions where they have to have a fixed freeze on interest rates on mortgage contracts that have already been agreed to?

People can say Obama is a DINO and name-call like little schoolyard punks, but do they understand the repercussions involved in the government forcing the banking industry to comply to rules basically made up out of what is populist pap that will only make the lawyers richer in courts fighting the mandatory enforcemnts?

I await the Nation to do a fair analysis of just how all this would play out...

[TankLV]

127. we USED to have maximum USURY RATES until the repukes threw it all away...

maximum loan rates were set at 12%. For a LONG time. Now we have rates worse than what the mafia used to charge...

the "government" can do anything it sets it's mind to - we already have UNCONSTITUTIONALLY allowed for changing the law after the fact and made it retroactive for bush* and his other WAR Criminals so all their CRIMES are now "not crimes"...

[redqueen]

151. What is happening to this country... I thought Dems LIKED usury laws!

:cry:

[pokercat999]

111. At this moment it looks like Obama could win, "at this

moment". My hope is that since it looks like Edwards doesn't have a chance Obama is our candidate.

My reasoning is that Obama is pandering for the election (all lies and jest) and then will revert to form once elected which will put him to the left of center in todays world which would be just slightly right of center when Hillary was a "Goldwater Girl".

Certainly not a progressive dream but better than the alternative. My fear is Hillary will be our candidate and McCain (the boy hero turned man coward) will be our Preznut.

[lwcon]

114. This is known as the "Phonebooth Theory"

http://correntewire.com/obama_stump_speech_strategy_of_conciliation_considered_harmful#comment-68144

I guess that's all that's left to us, when the coin of the realm is "hope."

___

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[pokercat999]

135. Sometimes one must face reality and admit that this is the

world we live in and we are powerless to change it. That's not to say we should stop trying (to change our world) but still we must steel ourselves to the reality that we will fail, accept that and move on. The righteous do not always "win" and as much as I hate to admit it there is likely to be no punishment for any of the Bush criminals or for that matter an international rouge and criminal country, the USA.

[Yanez Houston Jordan]

113. Other than change in racial or gender identity, neither Obama nor Hillary offers any real progress

for Democrats.

They both would give us nothing but Bill Clinton-style bi-partisan mush.

[lwcon]

116. Certainly any of the Dems is better than a GOP sociopath

But while we're "hoping" for "change," I'd like what's behind door #3. Because Edwards is helping remind people about government for the people, instead of government kowtowing to the Conservative Movement.

Honestly, people, how can you stomach listening to Obama and Hillary acting like you can partner with the bastards who have trashed the country for the last 7 years?

As I've said previously about Obama (and it's not far off describing Hillary's disappointing centrism, as well)...

My concern is not so much that his heart belongs to the right wing, but that his rhetoric does.

His insistence that the problem in DC is a bickering food fight and not the rape of the country by the runaway conservative movement is exactly what the GOP and MSM want us to be saying. And it's far to the right of what most Americans now believe.

It's a sleazy, disempowering, self-aggrandizing tactic to put himself "above" partisanship, and in so doing, giving a clean slate to today's ruthless, corrupt, incompetent, and valueless Repubican Party.

I'm not saying he has to quote the name of Al Franken's fictitious follow-up to "Lies and the Lying Liars": "I Fucking Hate These Rightwing Motherfuckers."

But he should stop needlessly suggesting that we're living in some Tip O'Neill theme park where there is anything across the aisle other than a shark.

http://www.correntewire.com/tags/barack_obama

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[Yanez Houston Jordan]

132. I completely agree

[Leopolds Ghost]

154. One of the reasons I liked Kerry is that the Repubs hated him so much that he could

sound conciliatory and promise a fight at the same time because he could propose anything and the Republicans (and Clinton/Reid "mainstream urban" Democratic machine) would have fought him every step of the way on principle. Under those circumstances Kerry's natural liberal instincts would be primed for a fight, and he could have asked for anything.

Of course, he might have screwed it up by following Obama's approach, which, to listen to Kerry now, he objects to Edwards' "confrontational"
approach and that is why he supports Obama.

Ask for 200% and settle for 80% of what you want. The leading candidates
don't understand this.

[Duke Newcombe]

156. Funny thing about that mush, though...

...it DID win us elections and put our ideas into motion...not a lot of that happening lately...

Duke

[rosetta627]

119. I say this as a Kucinich supporter, so I have no bias towards Obama

But The Nation is not to be trusted.
I think they're a pseudo "progressive" publication, aka right-wing propaganda disguised as a liberal magazine.

In other words, who cares what that rag says.

[redqueen]

147. Yeah... um... welcome to DU. (nt)

[rosetta627]

159. Yeah, well, um

No welcome, of that kind, needed.

[azprogress]

120. That's one, highly debatable, view...

Another is that Barrack is far more progressive than what Hill or Edwards states. Dont take my word, take the quiz below and see where you land.

http://www.electoralcompass.com/

[La Coliniere]

122. Both are great friends of big business

and their MO is "the business of America is business". Neither truly represents "We the people" and neither will put the needs of the commons before the needs of stockholders and the need to prime the engine of the military industrial complex first and foremost . We are foolish if we believe otherwise. Obama is the price we pay for our national obsession with "personality". Hillary is the price we pay for not calling out and detailing where the "triangulation" theory of political gamesmanship has taken us: backwards, from a progressive political perspective.

Obama, Clinton? Clinton, Obama? Neither alone one will win against McCain. Edwards non withstanding, the only chance Democrats have is if it's a Clinton-Obama ticket. I DO see this coming, and it doesn't make me pleased. Yeah, they'll get my vote, but that's not saying much when I knew we could do so much better. Could I be wrong? Perhaps, but I wouldn't bet on it.
Peace

[TankLV]

123. WE know as much - too bad the cultists WON'T see it...

sad, isn't it...

from his REPEATED pandering to Homophobic BIGOTS,
to his PRAISING of that senile asshole ray-gun,
and his "bipartisan" crap which will lead to being steam rollered by the ever cheating repukes...
his INTIMATE dealings with SLUMLORDS
his refusal to vote other than "present" lest he have an actual voting record he will have to DEFEND.

it's ALL very troubling...

[debbierlus]

128. Voting for Obama is the same as voting Republican (not neoconservative)

It is NOT the same as voting neoconservative, that is what the current 'Republicans' actually are....

But, it is beyond ironic that the 'change' the American people are seeking is more of looks & tone, then that of policy. And, the American people are going to be sadly disappointed, if they make this choice.

[lwcon]

136. Not the same, IMHO

But he badly diminishes the party by ratifying right-wing memes.

It's needless, and it's counterproductive. It gets him a little goodwill in the press, but how about earning it by acting like a statesman, instead of doing that Neville Chamberlain impersonation.

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[robbedvoter]

158. That's the part that gets me the most!

One of my pet peeves - allowing those memes to go unchallenged.

[ShortnFiery]

138. B.S. On the important issues such as "senseless war" Obama is the quintessential POPULIST!

Too funny! Lieberman is rated as "liberal" due to some social issues, but in reality, he's a DEATH MERCHANT, just like his friend and fellow senator who voted for his amendment (Kyle/Lieberman). :thumbsup:

[Doctor_J]

139. The Nation will have their collective undies in a bunch because Kucinich & Nader aren't running

Take this with a grain or 5 of salt. I love the magazine, but they need to confront reality with respect to the national electorate.

[redqueen]

146. That's pretty weird...

why would you say that?

This article seemed very evenhanded...

Election '08
http://mobile.thenation.com/docmobile.mhtml?i=20080107&s=editors

:shrug:

[robbedvoter]

157. True, but they sure aren't fond of Clinton, so the statement has merit

[redqueen]

143. I like Edwards.

:)

[robbedvoter]

148. A good reminder!