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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 10:02 PM
Original message
Barack Obama: Praying to Be 'An Instrument of God's Will'
http://community.cfaith.com/blogs/gillion1/archive/2008/01/24/this-is-a-interview-from-beliefnet-talking-to-barack-obama-please-read-prayfully.aspx

In writing about your experience encountering church people as an organizer in Chicago, you said you saw “their ability to make a way out of no way, I could see the Word made manifest… I was finally able to walk down the aisle of Trinity United Church of Christ one day and be baptized.” It sounds like a conversion or a born-again experience.

'I Felt God's Spirit Beckoning Me'
It wasn't an epiphany. I didn't “fall out,” as they say in the black church. It was an emotional and spiritual progression, as well as an intellectual one. And it didn't happen overnight. What happened was that I felt drawn to the message of Jesus Christ and the power of the church to fortify people in their spiritual journeys. And, you know, in my heart, at least, I felt God's spirit beckoning me. So ultimately, as I write in <“The Audacity of Hope”>, I submitted myself to his will, dedicated myself to discovering his truths.

But it's an ongoing process for all of us in making sure that we are living out our faith every day. And, you know, it's something that I try to pray on at the beginning of every day and at the end of every day, whether I'm living my life in a way that's consistent with my faith.
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Kittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
1. So what was HRC praying for when she spoke at church today?
???
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
16. Hillary is prayerful......
what may startle people, including her supporters, is that the group she has associated herself with since 1993 which sponsors these groups as well as the National Prayer Breakfast is very conservative and exclusive. Known now as the Fellowship, it is a group that reporter Sharlet knows very well given his past investigative pieces in Harper's Magazine several years ago, and a Rolling Stone piece about Sam Brownback in 2006. Digby has written about this group as well. Even though Mother Jones will not post the piece online until Tuesday, I have been given permission to post segments of the piece in the extended entry. I encourage all of you to buy the current issue and read the piece for yourselves, because Hillary’s association with the Fellowship may lead some to question her judgment and true beliefs, given what the group stands for. http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/010937.php


Hotline-- Sept 2006

Hillary Clinton: The Faith Angle

Hillary Clinton’s hiring of “faith guru” Burns Strider as an adviser to her presumptive presidential campaign, reported two days ago in the Hotline, draws some rare attention to Clinton’s religiosity, as yet unexamined in the same way that ’08 heavyweights like Mitt Romney and, through his high-profile meeting with Pastor Rick Warren, Barack Obama have been.

In Clinton’s case, there’s plenty to examine: religion seems to be the only part of her life that hasn’t undergone rigorous scrutiny.


Though Strider, as a onetime staff member for Nancy Pelosi, is squarely in the liberal camp, Clinton is part of not one, but two, prayers groups with distinctly conservative bents: an exclusive Senate prayer group that meets on Wednesday mornings, and a women’s prayer group that she’s been a part of since her early White House days. The women’s group is run by Holly Leachman, a layperson at the McLean Bible Church in Virginia, itself magnet for prominent conservatives, including former independent counsel Kenneth Starr, Republican senators John Thune and James Inhofe, as well as several Bush staffers and their families.

Leach's prayer group includes many prominent Republican wives, among them Susan Baker, wife of Iraq Study Group co-chairman James Baker, who along with Leachman ministered to Hillary Clinton in the wake of the Monica Lewinsky scandal. (Leachman, mentioned briefly in Clinton’s memoir, Living History, is the wife of Washington Redskins chaplain Jerry Leachman).



Hillary's Prayer: Hillary Clinton's Religion and Politics
For 15 years, Hillary Clinton has been part of a secretive religious group that seeks to bring Jesus back to Capitol Hill. Is she triangulating—or living her faith?

September 01 , 2007

Through all of her years in Washington, Clinton has been an active participant in conservative Bible study and prayer circles that are part of a secretive Capitol Hill group known as the Fellowship. Her collaborations with right-wingers such as Senator Sam Brownback (R-Kan.) and former Senator Rick Santorum (R-Pa.) grow in part from that connection. "A lot of evangelicals would see that as just cynical exploitation," says the Reverend Rob Schenck, a former leader of the militant anti-abortion group Operation Rescue who now ministers to decision makers in Washington. "I don't....there is a real good that is infected in people when they are around Jesus talk, and open Bibles, and prayer."
<>These days, Clinton has graduated from the political wives' group into what may be Coe's most elite cell, the weekly Senate Prayer Breakfast. Though weighted Republican, the breakfast—regularly attended by about 40 members—is a bipartisan opportunity for politicians to burnish their reputations, giving Clinton the chance to profess her faith with men such as Brownback as well as the twin terrors of Oklahoma, James Inhofe and Tom Coburn, and, until recently, former Senator George Allen (R-Va.). Democrats in the group include Arkansas Senator Mark Pryor, who told us that the separation of church and state has gone too far; Joe Lieberman (I-Conn.) is also a regular.

Unlikely partnerships have become a Clinton trademark. Some are symbolic, such as support for a ban on flag burning with Senator Bob Bennett (R-Utah) funding for research on the dangers of video games with Brownback and Santorum. But Clinton has also joined the gop on legislation that redefines social justice issues in terms of conservative morality, such as an anti-human-trafficking law that withheld funding from groups working on the sex trade if they didn't condemn prostitution in the proper terms. With Santorum, Clinton co-sponsored the Workplace Religious Freedom Act; she didn't back off even after Republican senators such as Pennsylvania's Arlen Specter pulled their names from the bill citing concerns that the measure would protect those refusing to perform key aspects of their jobs—say, pharmacists who won't fill birth control prescriptions, or police officers who won't guard abortion clinics.

Clinton has championed federal funding of faith-based social services, which she embraced years before George W. Bush did; Marci Hamilton, author of God vs. the Gavel, says that the Clintons' approach to faith-based initiatives "set the stage for Bush." Clinton has also long supported the Defense of Marriage Act, a measure that has become a purity test for any candidate wishing to avoid war with the Christian right.
http://www.motherjones.com/cgi-bin/print_article.pl?url=http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2007/09/hillarys-prayer.html
---------------------------


Most of the prayer groups are informally affiliated with a secretive Christian organization called the Fellowship, established in the 1930s by a Methodist evangelist named Abraham Vereide, whose great hope was to preach the word of Jesus to political and business leaders throughout the world. Vereide believed that the best way to change the powerful was through discreet personal ministry, and over his lifetime he succeeded to a remarkable degree. The first Senate prayer group met over breakfast in 1943; a decade later one of its members, Senator Frank Carlson, persuaded Dwight Eisenhower to host a Presidential Prayer Breakfast, which has become a tradition.
<>
Hillary Clinton’s proficiency in this innermost sanctum has unnerved some of the capital’s most exalted religious conservatives. “You’re not talking about some tree-hugging, Jesus-is-my-Buddha sort of stuff,” says David Kuo, a former Bush official in the Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives, who worked with Clinton to promote joint legislation and who, like Brownback, has apologized to her for past misdeeds. “These are powerful evangelicals she’s meeting with.” Like many conservatives, they are caught between warring dictates of their faith: the religious one, which requires them to embrace a fellow Christian, and the political one, more powerful in some, which causes them to instinctively distrust the motives of a Clinton. Everyone in Washington experiences their dilemma at one time or another—the lack of an Archimedean point from which to judge Hillary Clinton.
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200611/green-hillary







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LaStrega Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. the Fellowship of the Billering n/t
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
2. get yer bibles ready nt
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fenriswolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
3. whatever
hill plays the prayer card to. Maybe not at all as vocally as obama but hillary is deep in the politics of religion.
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Big Blue Marble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #3
46. I feel that they are both sincere in their practice of their faith.
Edited on Mon Jan-28-08 12:18 AM by Big Blue Marble
The very fact that Hillary is mostly private about her faith makes me think that she is a sincere Christian.

I believe that Obama, too, is devout in his faith. Sadly he has had to play it more than he would choose
due to the unfair attacks accusing him of being Islamic.

I wish in both cases we would leave their religious beliefs out of our discussions of their qualifications for office.
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fenriswolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #46
72. while that might be true
The "prayer meetings" are full of the religious movers and shakers of DC and I'm sure that they talk about more then what god is up to that week. as an athiest it doesnt matter who is sincere in their belief and who is hyping it because as politicians they are both using religion to their own advantages.
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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
4. -1
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
5. "We are attempting to inject faith into policy."
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #5
43. I think we've had enough of that lately
it doesn't seem to work out very well when politicians begin hiding behind religion to justify their actions.

We don't need to inject faith in public policy to know what's best for our country's future. Religion belongs in church, not pushing an agenda in the WH or Congress.
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ErnestoG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
6. Is there something wrong with a Liberal of faith?
Let me let you in on something...the way some liberals throw shit on people of faith for that very reason,

lost.....us.....elections.

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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. Thank you. And welcome to DU! nt
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ErnestoG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #14
38. Thanks
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #6
34. Our government is that of a secular republic.
When religion is injected into politics, it poisons both.

The time will come, in the not-too-distant future, when American will be murdering Americans by the tens of thousands in the name of god. THEN we will learn the lesson that Europeans have learned over the centuries, and that the Enlightenment founders of our nation knew in their very bones.

STRICT SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE.

No fucking "Presidential Prayer Breakfasts". No secret conclaves of religious politicians working on programs to re-shape society to fit their twisted views. Capitol Hill is NOT a goddamed temple.
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ErnestoG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #34
39. Where does it say its leaders must be atheists?
Scan the Constitution carefully, and get back to me on that.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #39
51. WTF? Where did I say that? They don't have to be atheists, but
they must run the country as if they were. I don't care how they get their religious jollies, as long as it has NOTHING to do with how they run the country.

It doesn't bother the fuck out of you that Hillary is doing prayer circles with politicians that are 180 degrees away from her supposed positions? Eisenhower started the Presidential Prayer Breakfasts, and they've had them ever since because no president wants to look like he's 'banning prayer'.

There MUST be a solid wall of separation between their personal religious beliefs and their politial positions. One crack in that wall will bring down the constitution - and THAT is MY sacred document. Any attempt to make this less than a secular government opens the way to religious wars - something Europe can tell us all about, which is the reason the founders put that in the constitution to begin with.

I'm afraid it is already too late. Maybe you don't remember back in the pre-Carter days, when nobody knew or cared anything about a politician's religion. These days, you can't be elected unless you kiss the right religious ass - the constitution clearly says there is no religious test for office, but the theocrats have so poisoned the public that there is a defacto one. We are on a downhill slide, which ends in war.
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ErnestoG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #51
52. What in Obama's record leads you to believe he legislates from the Bible?
Can you give any specifics to your fears?

Also, I was born in 1961 so I well remember the Carter years. But have you been following the loss of political power for the religious right lately? They are quite the diminished creature from what they were. Obama has shown no inclination, no part of his actual leadership record that points to him acting as a religious fanatic or being in the pocket of the religious right.

So your fears...or point...is unfounded.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #52
55. It is NOT unfounded. The very fact that he feels it necessary
to spout off in religious terms makes that clear. He has to pass the public's religious test for office and THAT is fucked up. A politician should be judged by the policies he endorses, not what god he claims. It's not a right/left issue, it a right/wrong issue. When you pander to a constituency, you give them power over you - as I pointed out with the Presidential Prayer Breakfasts. No president now dares suggest discontinuing them for fear of being branded anti-religious. And yet, the constitution specifically says there should be no religious test for office. We got along fine without them for 170 years. We got through the first 80 years without "In God We Trust" on our money, and 90 years after that 2 cent coin before it was mandated (also by Eisenhower) to go on all money. Now, anyone who suggests removing it is a nutcase. The Pledge of Allegiance stumbled along for 60 years before "under God" was inserted into it. Same thing.

In these parts it's normal to wear your religious heart on your sleeve, and for all I know it always has been so, but most places I've lived in all my life that has not been true.

You say remember well the Carter years. What you don't remember is that Carter was the FIRST to drag religion into presidential politics. Prior to Carter it just didn't happen. Sure, in '60 some people (protestant fundies, of course) worried about JFK taking orders from Rome but he gave a good speech about being president for all the people, and that was that. A reponse to a specific question. Nobody ran on being a christian except nutcases and demagagues, and they were soundly ignored. A person's religion was his personal business, and nobody else's. Remembering the Carter years only means that ALL YOUR LIFE you've had politics steeped in religion. You are the proverbial cooking frog, and don't see how it has gotten worse and worse through each successive administration, republican or democrat.

It is not just the religious right that scares me. It's the sense of entitlement of ALL religious factions, and the political need to pander to those factions.
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ErnestoG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #55
57. Obama is not doing anything unsual in American politics today
I don't like wearing your religion on your political sleeve either, but facts are, in order to get anywhere today you have to say something about it. Its just the way it is.

Remember I am saying this as a nonChristian. Obama does not scare nor bother me that he is a faithful Christian. Why? Because his RECORD in politics shows nothing to indicate he'd act from the pulpit as a public figure. None. Not a single piece of legislation he has voted for against or sponsorsed. He is a man of faith who has a proven record of practicing as a secular public servant.

Some day, I hope to see that its a mere memory in politics to have to pass a religious litmus test. But that day isn't today. And it wont be in 2009 either. So we have to do a certain amount of dancing with the devil to get to our place in heaven, taking liberties with the religious context here.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #55
62. Carter didn't "drag" religion in - that was simply the consequence of one interview

...in Playboy, of all places.

Man, I'll bet you had a hard time with Lincoln.

http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres32.html

One-eighth of the whole population were colored slaves, not distributed generally over the Union, but localized in the southern part of it. These slaves constituted a peculiar and powerful interest. All knew that this interest was somehow the cause of the war. To strengthen, perpetuate, and extend this interest was the object for which the insurgents would rend the Union even by war, while the Government claimed no right to do more than to restrict the territorial enlargement of it. Neither party expected for the war the magnitude or the duration which it has already attained. Neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might cease with or even before the conflict itself should cease. Each looked for an easier triumph, and a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible and pray to the same God, and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces, but let us judge not, that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered. That of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes. "Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh." If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether."
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goodgd_yall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #55
66. Do you realize this was from an interview with BeliefNet
Edited on Mon Jan-28-08 02:54 AM by goodgd_yall
It's a site that interviews various people occasionally and asks them about their spiritual lives. Obama did not say these things in a political venue.

Here is what BeliefNet is about:


Our mission is to help people like you find, and walk, a spiritual path that will bring comfort, hope, clarity, strength, and happiness.

Whether you're exploring your own faith or other spiritual traditions, we provide you inspiring devotional tools, access to the best spiritual teachers and clergy in the world, thought-provoking commentary, and a supportive community.

Beliefnet is the largest spiritual web site. We are independent and not affiliated with any spiritual organization or movement. Our only agenda is to help you meet your spiritual needs.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #66
71. No, I mised that. Thanks.
Context is everything. Just as in my example elsewhere, when JFK addressed his catholicism, that puts this in the context of speaking to a specific constituency on a specific issue. I had gotten the impression it was coming from a more generalized venue in which it would more smack of pandering. In context it is much less egregious.
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goodgd_yall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #71
74. I'm familiar with the BeliefNet site
So when I saw that pop up once I clicked on the link, I understood the context. I don't like religion and faith being brought into the political arena either---I detest it, but couldn't care less that a candidate follows a particular religion. I want a president with a high social justice consciousness; I don't care what the source of that consciousness is---whether it is religion based or not.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #6
35. Obama is no liberal.
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ErnestoG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #35
40. proof, again?
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. I should have said he is no progressive.
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ErnestoG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #42
53. I never said he was a Progressive.
So I don't get your point.
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krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #6
44. I don't feel comfortable with politicians speaking like that, sorry.
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skipos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
7. Obama or Edwards could start speaking in tongues and it wouldn't make Hillary any less awful
I guess your post is supposed to scary me, but it is your avatar that is more frightening.
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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
8. Religious pandering.

Gross.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. You mean when Hillary says "God Bless America" or "God Bless you"
At the end of every speech, which Obama does not? :shrug:


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krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #11
45. Not a Hill supporter, but that's very different.
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Olney Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
9. I'm not comfortable with religion and politics, but I know that I am
not in the mainstream in this country.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. I'm an atheist
I'm not comfortable with religion in government, but religion in a political campaign isn't something I worry about, particularly. It's just business.
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Olney Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. When the chimp was re-instated in the WH in 2004, our local Dems
met to lick our wounds and try to re-group. One of the discussions focused on how
Dems might need to be more comfortable talking about their "faith" and "religion" if we were going to "win" the next time.

I hated the discussion. But as you said- perhaps it was just business, after all.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #18
32. I am a pagan
and it does not worry me either.
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ErnestoG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #32
41. Same here. And Obama's religion doesnt bother me in the least.
He has shown me that he is a person who can govern in a secular way. A person that can do that, I dont give a fuck if they worship a Semitic sacrificial god, or a cabbage.
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Captain_Nemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #41
68. I find his male religion pandering and revolting. He might nominate a SC Justice is revolting.
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thunder rising Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
10. I am really glad to see that someone read The Book and understood what it means
Edited on Sun Jan-27-08 10:10 PM by thunder rising
I have a problem with the Right Wing White Christians and their self-invitation into the old testament where they can justify all their evil actions. I have often wondered how those "Christians" can go to church (many times per week) and keep their twisted sense of right and wrong.




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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
12. Nevermind that Obama believes strongly in the separation of church and state.
But I guess that's not scandalous enough, right?
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. you ought to look for his other interview he gave to some fundie group about abortion. nt
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. link?
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. If you're interested you can find it yourself. I already know what he said. nt
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #15
26. No thanks. I think I'll stick with his 100% NARAL and PP ratings. n/t
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. so will i and for the reasons it troubles him
to many women in this country think the coat hanger was for hanging clothes. those days are thankfully over and it`s people like obama,who though troubled,believes it should be a woman`s choice
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #26
37. "Women should be PRAYERFUL about abortion", said he.
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #37
50. I have no problem with that statement.
I think that women should be (insert word about spirituality) about abortion.

It's a significant decision. It's a decision that no one really wants to have to make.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #50
73. I have a problem with it. Who are you to tell women to be spiritual?
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ErnestoG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #37
63. Whats wrong with prayer when dealing with a difficult life decision?
Honestly, I don't get all the hate directed toward religious people. It will NOT win more to our cause.
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ErnestoG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #12
61. See now you're wrecking their perfectly good rant....
Meanie.
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
13. Why not? Religion is the most used & abused endeavor in the history
of humankind. At this point it's to be expected.
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frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
17. barf
:puke:
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Labors of Hercules Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
19. I couldn't care less if he's an instrument of God's will...
As long as he's an instrument of OUR will FIRST.
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kurth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. There ya go. We're hiring a president
- not a preacherman.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
20. Obama's 100% rating in separation of church and state - same as Clinton
AMERICANS FOR THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH & STATE
Clinton 100%
Obama 100%
McCain 33%

http://www.vote-smart.org/






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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #20
56. And this is a masterful answer here:
==My general criteria is that if a congregation or a church or synagogue or a mosque or a temple wants to provide social services and use government funds, then they should be able to structure it in a way that all people are able to access those services and that we're not seeing government dollars used to proselytize.

That, by the way, is a view based not just on my concern about the state or the apparatus of the state being captured by a particular religious faith, but it's also because I want the church protected from the state. And I don't think that we promote the incredible richness of our religious life and our religious institutions when the government starts getting too deeply entangled in their business. That's part of the reason why you don't have as rich a set of religious institutions and faith life in Europe. Part of that has to do with the fact that, traditionally, it was an extension of the state. And so there is less experimentation, less vitality, less responsiveness to the yearnings of people. It became a rigid institution that no longer served people's needs. Religious freedom in this country, I think, is precisely what makes religion so vital.==
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
24. Is this any of my business?
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
27. Obama Has a Built-in Advantage, and ...
... to a lesser extent, so does Edwards: http://www.google.com/search?q=+site:www.democraticunderground.com+corpgovactivist+pentecostal&hl=en&filter=0">both Obama and Edwards look and sound comfortable at a service, an issue I've urged Democrats to think about since the mid-terms in 06.

She looks like a nervous tourist in many of these venues.

- Dave
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. she does but that is her character
she`s not a shout`n methodist but that reserved white middle class methodist church girl. she joined a youth group who visited the south side in chicago but she never understood what she saw around here. i know her like the back of my hand because i was in a church just like her`s and did the same thing in the early 60`s.
but buy some strange reason i became a shout`n methodist and dam proud of it!:rofl:
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Well...
... I have a soft spot in my heart for both kinds, and always http://www.google.com/search?as_q=methodists+baptists+who+can+read&hl=en&num=10&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&cr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=imdb.com&as_rights=&safe=images">love the line from A River Runs Through It.

I got a real hoot out of watching her in the highbacked chair, today, though!

:rofl:

I will have trouble at Heathrow over this, I just know it, but:



- Dave
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krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #27
48. LOL, a nervous tourist. They should see me in church!
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
30. good god - he sound just like bush*
Edited on Sun Jan-27-08 10:44 PM by TankLV
still very scary...

didn't like it with bush* - don't like it at all now...

"Don't argue with ME - it's GOD'S WILL!"

god save us from your followers...

and what's worse, you 'bots are all touting this as if it's a GOOD thing...

...shudder...
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krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #30
47. Yep, exactly like Bush. But it's ok if a Democrat talks like this?
Yikes.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
36. "God delivered me from homosexuality!!!" - finale at Obama event in S.C.
"'I Felt God's Spirit Beckoning Me' to throw gays and lesbians under the bus so I could court conservative Christian votes."
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MrSlayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 12:18 AM
Response to Original message
49. You have to do this sort of thing now if you want to be elected.
I think he is just putting on a show for the fools that need to hear crap like this to make them feel better and would govern using reason. I don't support Obama but I do believe he is an intelligent man.
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loveangelc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 01:01 AM
Response to Original message
54. um...so? Should he be praying to be an instrument of the devil's will?
I don't understand how that's a bad thing...
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goodgd_yall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #54
69. I don't get it either
He's explaining his personal beliefs in an interview where he was asked about them. You'd think he was saying this stuff on the Senate floor by the sound of some of these posts.
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Tulkas Donating Member (592 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 01:53 AM
Response to Original message
58. While Billary prays to be "an instrument of Satan's will" they are getting there
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and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 01:58 AM
Response to Original message
59. Oh fuck me. this is the last nail in the coffin...
I will not be voting for him.

No preachers for President, thanks.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #59
64. You said it. Holy moly.
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 02:11 AM
Response to Original message
60. But, Who Is Praying to Be the Instrument of Wall Street's Will? n/t
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goodgd_yall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 02:46 AM
Response to Original message
65. This is from an interview with BeliefNet
It's a website that asks people about their spiritual life and religious beliefs. I don't see anything negative about his personal beliefs.

Is there supposed to be some problem with this?
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Captain_Nemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 02:54 AM
Response to Original message
67. He thinks he is the fucking Messiah.
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 06:46 AM
Response to Original message
70. candidates who want to "do God's will" scare the shit out of me . . .
George Bush has been "doing God's will" for eight years . . . if that's God's will, I want no part of it . . .
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SoxFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
75. How dare he
We would rather have laws written by the patron of this great city, the man called the "world's most sincere Democrat," St. Francis of Assisi, than laws written by Darwin.
Mario Cuomo, Democratic National Convention, 1984

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury,pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
and where there is sadness, joy.

O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek
to be consoled as to console;
to be understood as to understand;
to be loved as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive;
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
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