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Why Obama and Clinton Supporters see and talk past each other?

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Perky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 07:51 AM
Original message
Why Obama and Clinton Supporters see and talk past each other?
I have been thinking about why Obama and Clinton supporters seem to talk past each other: Because that is clearly what we are doing....and in our less rabid and perhaps more lucid moments we all recognize that we will (with near certainty) come together to support the nominee. But right now we are on different planets.

It occurs to me that the difference between us is not policy because there is not a great chasm between the two of them. It is not vision....because the visions may not ultimately prove that different. More fundamentally it is about "approach" -- about how we view the struggle to govern effectively. And perhaps even more succinctly it may be a debate over the definition of "effectiveness" itself. It is about, to borrow the phrase: "political trajectory"

If we move past the accusations of sleaze and racism (neither of which are not nearly as damning as they are hyped up to knock the other guy)....I honestly think the argument is not generational or wrapped up in identity politics. Ultimately I think we are seeing things differently because we are looking at the same set of issues through different lenses.

I think at the core, Obama supporters are attracted to the notion of an idealism that stresses results even if that means building amorphous, issue-centric coalitions the way Reagan did. At our core, we believe that our nation needs healing and that takes rebooting hope and new leadership. We want a new approach, because we think the "same ole same ole" will get us nowhere. To that extent, we are cynical about the politics Ase's on the notion that the experience centered on bludgeoning the opposition works, We want someone who can change the trajectory of political discourse in this country for a generation to come.

We look at Obama and he captures our imagination. We do not think he is messianic any more than JFK or Bobby were messianic, we think he is flawed as all politicians are, but what we have ultimately decided is that his message of hope, coupled with his intellect and --what stuck me about his speech lsat night-- his seriousness. is so refreshing, so different, so new that we are willing to overlook those flaws and that "inexperience".

One of the things that has been missing from the american political economy is the voice of the people. For 20 years no we have taken up sides ans allowing Washington to play trench warfare and bluntly it has gotten us nowhere. quite bluntly the the grenades have been lobbed so fast and furious between the parties that they can no longer hear the voice of the people..if they are not totally deaf to it.

We are betting on Obama, because we think he has the ability to bring with him to the bargaining table...not lobbyists and pundits, but the voice of the muddled middle and we are betting that the GOP has no one who do that either in the election or across the aisle.

We have taken to the notion that experience should be defined by the way we formulate the political dialectic. Our rejection of Hillary is based largely on a belief that she is not able to see through a lens that is different than what has been used since 1980 and that neither can those that hate her on the other side of the aisle. It is not so much that we think she is wrong on the issues. it is si mply that we do not think she can sell her ideas to either the folks on the others side or to the american people even though their may be little difference ultimately between Obama and Clinton on actual policy.


This view seems rejected by Clinton supporters because it rails against their understanding of how politics is done. They are dismissive of Obama because of his youth and perceived shallowness on the issues. Clinton supporters can not see what we see because we are looking through a different prism and quite honestly they like the prism they have been using.

I should not dare to presume to have any real grasp at why Clinton supporters are as adamant as they are. I am not sure I would understand it if they even spelled it out for me. It seems to be focused primarily upon the notion thar experience trumps everything else....What I am not sure of is whether that is Hillary's experience or it if is looking at Hillary through the prism created 16 years ago by Bill and a yearning to restore what was seen then through that prism.
It disturbs Obama supporters when we see Bill on the campaign trail acting not like a spousal advocate but as more of a VP/Attack dog. It is not so much unseemly as it it is terrifying to us... because we know where it leads....right into the grubby hands of Limbaugh and OReilly and the divisiveness of the last generation.

We do not understand why anyone would want to practice stalemate politics for another four years let alone another eight.

Obama is right ...It is about changing the political trajectory. Our sense is that Bill and Hillary see a wall and their strategy is going to to be to just try to knock the fool thing down. We look at Obama and we are betting that the american people will allow him to lead us over the wall or around it.

What excites us about Obama is that we think he can transform poliitcs in this country for a generation. It is not simply trajectory it is a new vector. He proposes a new direction..The way FDR did with The New Deal The way JFK did with the New Frontier, the way Reagan did with "morning in America".

Fundamentally we thin Obama five us a fresh direction to problem-solving


My sense is that Clinton supporters are just accustomed to the way things have been done for the last 30 yardman that it can't be changed.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 07:55 AM
Response to Original message
1. Last post I read of yours - you were asking us to be nice - forget Rezko
Well you really pretended you wanted a higher tone.
Then, after the SC results were announced, you posted threads calling individual Hillary supporters : Paging so and so - where are they now?
So, on this one, I read your title and responded.
You are right.
I don't take time to read your posts anymore,
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Just another brick in the wall.
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Perky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. yep
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xultar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 08:06 AM
Response to Original message
4. As nice as your post was...you just talked past them again while trumpeting
Edited on Mon Jan-28-08 08:08 AM by xultar
your chosen candidate.

The real reason they talk past each other is quite simple.

BOTH sets of supporters are living in a fucking dream world. Both sets can't see how the other set can see things the way they do.

Obama supporters think their candidate can do no wrong. Clinton supporters think exactly the same.

In the end both sets of candidates mirror each other but the mirror is the same image and not a reversed identical image.


Which makes since...no matter what the candidates say, it is what they do that counts, and right now Clinton and Obama are exactly the same in how they vote.

Obama gives great speeches but he is more likable. Clinton gives great speeches but she is less likable.

That is the main difference between the two.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #4
14. We Agree On Everything But That
"Obama supporters think their candidate can do no wrong. Clinton supporters think exactly the same."

I think they both are capabable of doing wrong as are all folks... I just think one candidate (Clinton) gets called out for it while the other candidate (Obama) doesn't...
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Perky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #4
22. I was not trumpeting so much as I was attempting to explain what we see in him.
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
5. You want to bet ... and some of us have been assembling a
coalition for years. There's only cooperation and defection ... and you're going alone.
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Perky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. How's that working out for you?
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Professor Axelrod proved it ... the most effective strategy is
reciprocity. See my tagline for details. And yes, in real life - as @ DU - it works.
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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
6. Even you are praising Reagan? If it does ultimately turn
out down the road that Edwards supporters like myself sadly have to choose between Obama and Hillary . . I hope you realize your side is going to have to cut back on the Reagan talk.

Talk of change should not include the "R" word.

Now maybe the Obama Camp is satisfied with the number of people who are committed to voting for him as it stands right now.

If not, you folks are going to need to adjust some of the rhetoric.

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Perky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Did I endorse a single policy of Reagan's?
I am simpley saying that he changer the direction of the debate for a generation... It is now time to change direction again.
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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. You can't think of anyone else who changed "the direction
of the debate for a generation," except for a Republican?

Huge turn off Perky.

Ronald REAGAN? The Democrats' mortal enemy, that smiling, supposedly simple-minded actor who expanded the Republican party by wooing all those white, working-class voters?

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/01/17/obamas_reagan_comparison_spark_1.html?nav=rss_email/components



As opposed to John Edwards who said, "I can promise you this: this president will never use Ronald Reagan as an example for change."
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Perky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. I don't think covering your ears and shoutting La-la-la
is going to change the rality. I want a president a democratic president who people still talks about a generation later as a touchstone of the party.


FDR and JFK aws that for us and Reagab wa sthat for the GOP...and until we have a transcendent president, elections will always be about how close or how far a candidate is from Ronald Reagan.

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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Yea, well first of all. Spell check is your friend. Secondly,
you did not answer my question.

Are you not capable of using a Democrat as an example as opposed to a Republican?

If your answer is "no," then fine, your answer is no.

This has nothing to do with covering my ears.

It has everything to do with selling your candidate as a Democrat when I don't trust him as far as I can throw him as it is.

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Perky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. FDR? JFK?
There has been no democrat since...... Caroline Kennedy is right.
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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Awesome. Democrats.
!!!
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Apollo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. John Edwards pounced on that scrap of meat like a natural born trial-lawyer.
Maybe I would find John Edwards more credible and more appealing if he wasn't grinning from ear to ear at the same time he was delivering his line about never using RR as an example of change.

It's like in Edwards own mind - he is the prosecuting attorney and Obama is the defendant who just said something that can be turned around and used against him in a court of law.

For me it's a very minor issue, compared with who believed Bush would act in America's best interests and co-sponsored the resolution that authorized the invasion of Iraq.
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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Are you drunk?
I'm being serious.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
17. As an Edwards supporter and Bernie Sanders fan I see it differently
In my opinion the current politician who most "gets it" is Bernie Sanders, the Independent Democratoc Socialist from Vermont.

I believe among the current three Democratic contenders, Edwards is also trying to do what Bwernie does, in a somewhat less distinct way.

Bernie has done in Vermont exactly what Obama claims to want to do nationally. He has developed a message and a style of politicing that does transcend the usual divisions of partisan politics and "liberal" and "conservative."

But he has done it in a way that is based on a clear and consistent set of principles and values. He is not nebulous in any way. he is for the working class and the poor, and he is opposed to Corporate Power and the abuses of the elite.

How? He is a fighter for the interests of the true majority.He is unabashedly on the "left." But he is enthusiastically supported by many of those nebulous swing voters and even conservatives.

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NoBorders Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
19. Realpolitik vs. Raprochement?
I've been thinking about this too. I'm not sure my above analogy is the correct one, but I think you're onto something. There is a definitely a difference in mindset in how to approach politics right now, or at least this nomination.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Obama is the 2008 version of Bill Clinton's 1992 "New Democrat"
The comparisons are eerie if you look into it. Do you remember Bill Clinton saying that "the era of big government is over"? Actually he said that particular quote in is 1996 State of the Union Address. Even after 4 years he was still looking for common ground with Republicans.

Bill Clinton did not come into office as a divisive figure. He did not come into office spoiling for a fight. He came into office committed to finding a new path that sought common sense solutions to the full range of problems facing America, a path that would bypass the prior partisan divides and unite all Americans in a common resolve to better our lives.

When Bill Clinton first ran for office in 1992 the Republicans attacked him as another tax and spend liberal who would spend America into the poor house. Instead Bill Clinton actually balanced the Federal Budget for one of the few times in modern American political history. When Bill Clinton ran for President in 1992 Republicans attacked him for being a proponent of the Big Government Welfare State. Instead he asked Al Gore to Chair a Commission to Reinvent Government to make it smaller and more efficient. Instead Bill Clinton "cut government red tape", including many of the "bureaucratic" checks on corporate greed that we here at DU now complain so loudly about being gone. Instead Bill Clinton championed "back to the work place" Welfare reforms targeted to end a "cycle of dependency" that the Republican Party of the 80's said was to blame for cross generational poverty in America.

Bill Clinton was all about "finding common ground" with Americans of good faith from all political backgrounds who were tired of the endless partisan divisions that seemingly America got locked into after Jimmy Carter's election in 1976. And the Republican party responded by despising him for it. The Republican Party responded by launching Right Wing Hate Talk Radio. The Republican Party in 1994 responded by in 1994 engineering a Congressional Judicial Coup, as soon as they gained a Congressional majority, that installed attack dog Ken Starr as a Special Prosecutor empowered to investigate each and every facet of Bill and Hillary Clinton's personal lives. They let him spend four years and well over 50 Million dolors doing so. And finally the Republican Party responded by impeaching an American President, who had just been reelected with broad support from the American people, for the first time in 130 years over a blow job.

When I look back on the 90's and try to learn the lessons of that era the above is what jumps out immediately to me. Wes Clark gave an interview once, before he ran for President in 2004. in which he had this to say about the way Republicans operated during Bill Clinton's Presidency:

"Somebody once told me in business that when you're going to negotiate a business deal, you stake out (Clark SLAMS the table) your position and stand on it! Don't go in there and ask what they want. Say, `Here's what I want!' (SLAMS table again).

"You've got a Republican Party under Gingrich and Tom DeLay that says, `Here's what I want' (SLAMS table again). "Then you've got the Democrats over here saying, `Yeah, ah, yeah, we could, some of what you say makes pretty good sense.

"The result is the American people don't see the full spectrum. Before the 2002 election there were a lot of Democratic politicians apparently who said, `I don't have the information. I can't battle with the president on the information. He's got the intelligence. What if there is a smoking gun in there? I can't fight the president in my congressional district.'

"What we've got to do is stake (SLAMS table again) out our position. For instance on tax reform, stop (SLAM) saying (SLAM) you agree with simplification of the tax code. . . . We stand (SLAM) for progressive taxation. We're proud of it. If you make more, you should pay more, period!"

Why is it that so many of the same Democratic activists on DU who SLAM Bill Clinton for acting like Republican-lite in office by compromising core Democratic principles (even though it was his Administration that tried to bring universal health care to the American people), are so enthralled by Barack Obama's call for unity across Party spectrums now? Bill Clinton was certainly as charming and skilled a political figure then as the Democrats had produced since JFK, but more likely more so than any Democratic leader since FDR. Barack Obama today is no more compelling a political leader than Bill Clinton was when he was overwhelmingly reelected in 1996, only to be impeached a year later by the Republicans in Congress.

Since Hillary Clinton first ran for the U.S. Senate in 2000 she has gone out of her way to not act in a polarizing and divisive manner. She did not assert herself as a star in the U.S. Senate as soon as she got elected. She worked with colleagues on both sides of the aisle to get legislation passed for the American people. Hillary reached out in New York State to her Republican constituents and brought many of them around to supporting her during her successful reelection bid.

Hillary Clinton knows how to cooperate for the good of America, but she also understands how the Republicans fight. She understands that the last thing the Republicans will accept lying down is a Democratic candidate who attempts to unite the Center and Left in America, marginalizing the Republicans with their core Right wing base only. She knows that will threaten the Republican hold on power and throw their continuing legacy of divide and conquer politics onto the scrap heap of political history. She knows how hard the Republicans will fight that. She knows how dirty they can and will play. She has been through it personally and she can see what is coming. I am not sure that Barack Obama can.

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libbygurl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Very well put, TR! Really ties in with what Paul Krugman says in today's NYT. Thanks! nt
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Perky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. I just can not see anyone ever talking about putting Hillary on Mt. Rushmore.
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