Still on the fence!!

[Sparkly]

I lean one way, I lean the other way, but I just can't get off the fence between Clinton and Obama. It's not because I find them both compelling; it's more because I think they both have real problems as candidates, sorry to say. In fact, while I never supported Edwards, he's pretty much equaled out with them in my mind now, not because he's risen in my estimation, but because the others have fallen.

There are good things about both Obama and Clinton and either would be fine as president. Either would set a very exciting precedent, too! I want to see a glass ceiling shatter.

When Clark dropped out, I was leaning Obama. Then the debates convinced me that Clinton is better prepared for the presidency, and could win against a Republican. I started leaning her way when I saw all the attacks here, and started defending her. It became clear to me that we *need* a woman president to confront deep-seated misogyny, and the more I looked into her bio and positions, the more impressed I was.

Then I saw the enthusiasm for Obama, and thought that if they're basically the same on issues anyway, maybe charisma isn't a bad thing. At least at this point, an Obama bumpersticker wouldn't cause the groans that a Clinton bumpersticker would. And he has a gift for getting people excited and motivated. But as I took a closer look at Obama, I saw the centrist, compromising stances that create the "unity" he speaks of, including shaky ground for GLBT and women, emphasis on religion and phrases like "a kingdom on earth," and conciliatory positions toward Republicans. Hm.

Back to Clinton. The deep level of hatred for her, while not fair, is there. The media goes into hysterics about anything The Clintons say, twisting it into a sinister plot about "injecting race." Can she get past that? I don't know. No doubt she'd pummel a Republican in a debate, but Gore and Kerry showed themselves to be FAR superior to the chimp in debates and it didn't make much difference -- people didn't care. Most just respond to image (the tough cowboy, etc.).

Most endorsements don't matter to me, but Clark's endorsement of Clinton was important in my thinking (if only because he'd likely have a spot in her cabinet, and hopefully on the ticket). And now Ted Kennedy's endorsement of Obama -- that matters to me, too. Kennedy sees something in him. So I think I should take another look at Obama.

Then Kennedy says the endorsement of Obama is a reaction to The Clintons "injecting race." That again!? I don't believe they did "inject race," but I'm not going to get into all that here. I'm disappointed. Then I read that Kennedy says Clinton isn't electable. Well, that's the thing.

I still think Clinton is better prepared for the presidency -- all things being equal, she would be my pick. But sadly, all things are not equal, and she can't get a break. The "Clinton fatigue," the old rightwing definitions of her and her husband, the over-the-top vilification of them -- they're all real. It's a real problem.

So, I'm still on the fence. :(

[Jamastiene]

1. On the fence, leaning toward Hillary as of 9:18 am.

but my back and forth is between Hillary and Edwards. :shrug:

[cboy4]

4. You know if you would simply vote for Obama,

he might be able to help you pray away teh gay.

[Jamastiene]

20. That is what I am trying to avoid.

Those people give me the creeps. :scared:

[Sparkly]

7. Edwards

I used to think my vote would be decided according to who could best block Edwards. Now I don't think his 'problems' are worse than Clinton's and Obama's.

Why have you ruled out Obama?

[Jamastiene]

21. Refer to Post #20 for the response.

Here is a link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4244728&mesg_id=4253479">Re: Pray the gay away

[sunonmars]

2. To be honest, i wish every one including endorsements. politicians

just sat back now and let Super Tuesday happen and then let fly. Lets get a clear picture of what the voters want. At present people are trying to interfere here there and everywhere and exert influence.

I wish the MSM would just say, lets wait until ST and then we'll let rip.

[mac2]

Endorsements are mostly for jobs

in the new administration. Who cares who supports them in the end? I want the best candidate for America to win. I've had it with the stolen elections, etc. bad candidates who are the same old Empire Building gang, etc.

Old politicans, who were put of out power, aren't important or persuasive to me voting for their guy.

[rox63]

25. I don't think Ted Kennedy is looking for a job n/t

[Solon]

3. As far as I can tell, the biggest difference between all three candidates is personality...

hell, you can, on primary day, close your eyes and pick them randomly, and the results, policy wise, would be about the same.

[mac2]

6. None of them want out of the WTO

and talk about returning our Constitutional rights. Why is that?

[Sparkly]

8. They've all talked about restoring habeas corpus, I think.

Kucinich is really where my heart is, though.

[mac2]

11. Not that I've heard

It should have been on the top of the list when Pelosi came to power.

[Solon]

9. Hell if I know, because they are idiots?

Like I said, policy wise, they might as well be clones.

[TreasonousBastard]

13. "Cause they're smart. Very few...

people have that sort of thing high on their radar. Mentioning them just means trouble.

[mac2]

24. The media controls the questions and answers

Demand your country back? What are you a trouble maker?

[babylonsister]

5. I don't know if this helps your fencesitting, but I learned last night

Kennedy advised Obama to run over a year ago so Bill isn't his only reason, at least not on the face of it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4241067&mesg_id=4241319

[Benhurst]

10. And you think Kennedy wasn't aware when he advised Obama

to run that Hillary would be doing so as well?

[babylonsister]

12. Good point. I knew she'd be running, so I imagine Kennedy did, too.

What I'm trying to share is that I didn't know Kennedy had advised Obama at all, and that his endorsement isn't all about Bill's latest statements.

[Sparkly]

18. Could have just been, "Sure go ahead and run..."

It doesn't seem like a draft, along the lines of people urging General Clark to run in 2003, for example.

However, Caroline Kennedy's endorsement meant something to me, too. And John Kerry's. I like the New England Democrats.

But, when it comes to endorsements, General Clark's means more because it could translate to a spot for him. :sigh: So endorsements don't make a difference for me when they're all weighed out, either.

(Now if Mario Cuomo comes out and endorses Obama, then we're talking!)

[babylonsister]

19. Yes, it could have been a casual conversation. I'm just waiting for

their press briefing to hear what everyone has to say.:crazy:
As for Cuomo, I'm kind of surprised he's remained mum. Could be an interesting week.

[cooolandrew]

14. The funadamental factor is objectively anything other than Obama loses seats and back 2 squaare one.

[Sparkly]

16. Nobody knows that for a fact.

Clinton has had decades of smears hurled against her. The damage there has been done. (People, even on DU, often see her and say, "She's not so bad after all.") However, there's some heavy damage there.

Obama hasn't had a fraction of the scrutiny. Running against Alan Keyes doesn't count for much! Who knows what will be done to him in a general election campaign?

It's all an unknown.

[TreasonousBastard]

15. I feel pretty much the same way-- each has...

some really good points, and some serious flaws.

On balance, each could be a great President, but for different reasons, so I'm gonna make up my mind when I enter the booth. Probably make a silly emotional choice, but I'll be happy with whoever wins.

[cooolandrew]

17. The funadamental factor is objectively anything other than Obama loses seats and back 2 squaare one.

Yes, I do have bias but clearly that is the cold hard facts. Without those seats America turns o Democrats and basically a pointless excercise. There will clearly be electable women in the future but someone like Barack is rare in politics. .

[Nimrod2005]

22. Vote Obama

[Proud2BAmurkin]

23. Your answer is in the numbers you've already seen in states that have voted so far.

Sounds like electability is your issue. Mine too.

[Tom Rinaldo]

26. I think the ferociousness of attacks on Hillary will backfire

Here is an interesting story out of Florida:

Sun-Sentinal.com
Women give Clinton commanding lead in Florida
By Anthony Man | Political Writer
January 23, 2008

"...The South Florida Sun-Sentinel/Florida Times-Union Florida poll conducted last week found that among Democrats, Clinton had support of 56 percent of likely female voters — 36 percentage points ahead of Obama, who had support of 20 percent of women. Clinton had the support of 43 percent of men, just 5 percentage points ahead of Obama's 38 percent."
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-flbwomen0123pnjan23,0,6141190.story

The gender gap breaks much stronger in favor of Clinton among women than it breaks against her among men, and not just in Florida. And of course women are the majority group in America. Right now, in the Democratic Primary, sympathy for the unfair "attacks" Hillary comes under as a women is largely counterbalanced by sympathy for Obama because of "attacks" the media blames on the Clinton camp against Obama over race.

The story of how race is playing into this contest, and discussion about it, is overshadowing any focus on sexism for now. But the Republicans are going to run a white guy for President. If Hillary is our nominee there will be virtually if no talk about race baiting, but the issue of sexism will be on bold display across America. That is because the Republican Hate Machine can't help itself. They don't know how to throttle back their derision of Hillary, it goes against their DNA seemingly on the cellular level. They will repeat all the mistakes that won Hillary real sympathy in New Hampshire, and stir outrage against those who act belittling toward a woman who dares to believe she can be a leader. Obvious low blows will be landed against Hillary, and she will still stand strong. The public, women in particular, will not stand silently for that. Hillary's haters will dig their own grave.

As the Democratic nominee for President Hillary will get the stage half for herself to define herself to the American People. That is about an 800% more fair division of media access between Hillary herself and Hillary's haters than she has ever gotten before on a National level in the 15 years since Republicans started attacking her.

The Republicans have given it their best shot to negatively define Hillary Clinton and her positives vs negatives now are not that much worse in polling than Barack Obama is recording. But the Republicans have barely begun to spin their toxic stories about Richard Daley's legacy of an iron fisted Chicago political machine and a supposed culture of corruption that ruled Chicago throughout Obama's dramatic rise in politics. Obama has gotten the rock star treatment, Hillary has gotten Ken Starr's treatment. Hillary Clinton is the one with real upside potential left when the voters reevaluate her one on one in direct comparison with a Republican opponent.

Hillary Clinton will win the debates, that is important, because if she doesn't come across as up for the job the public will not balk at the unfair derision she will receive despite being the most intelligent and competent candidate running. But Clinton clearly comes across as brilliant. She comes across as strong but still understanding of the real pain real Americans are feeling. She comes across as a hard worker at a time when the voters understand that it will take hard work to deal with the massive problems any President is about to inherit. Hillary Clinton will certainly be scorned by her enemies during the General Election campaign. But they would be much wiser to "Beware a woman scorned..."

[Tom Rinaldo]

27. Sparkly, I phrased my post above so it could fit into my journal

So I kept personal references out. What I want to say to you is simply to support the person who you feel will make the best President for America. We will take that person over the finish line together. Clinton is at least as viable as Obama or Edwards. I think you should go with the person who you would rather vote for out of those three.

[Tom Rinaldo]

29. Sorry I initially left out the link to the FL story. I just added it via edit if you missed it. n/t

[Tatiana]

28. Ok what state are you in? n/t

[Hobarticus]

30. In aspite of all the rancor here, we truly have it good this year...

I like bopth leading candidates for good reasons, and dislike them as well for good reasons.

I supported Edwards in my state caucus, but I can't say I'd be terribly disappointed if either HRC or BHO won the nom.