For Gay Democrats, a Primary Where Rights Are Not an Issue, This Time

[DeepModem Mom]

NYT: For Gay Democrats, a Primary Where Rights Are Not an Issue, This Time
By ANDREW JACOBS
Published: January 28, 2008

The impromptu debate, over light beers and dirty martinis, was at once mundane and remarkable. Provoked by a reporter, four middle-aged men at a Greenwich Village gay bar made fiery pitches for the Democratic presidential front-runners. Two backed Senator Barack Obama, one argued for Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, and the fourth made an emotional plea for the cause of John Edwards, the former senator from North Carolina....What was notable about the exchange last week was what was not mentioned: the word “gay.”

For the first time in two decades, gay voters find themselves in an unusual, if happy, predicament. The three leading Democrats have staked out similar positions on issues that resonate with gay men and lesbians. Although none of the three candidates back gay marriage, they all support same-sex civil unions and say they would fight to repeal the military’s “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy. And each of them says he or she would champion a federal anti-discrimination law that would protect lesbians and gay men. “You would need a magnifying glass to see any real or substantive differences between the three candidates,” said Alan Van Capelle, the executive director of the Empire State Pride Agenda, a gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender civil rights group in New York....

***

In what many gay leaders described as a fairly momentous occasion, Mrs. Clinton, Mr. Obama and Mr. Edwards showed up at a forum in August sponsored by the gay cable channel Logo and talked about the bravery of gay soldiers, adoption rights for same-sex couples and the problems faced by homeless gay teenagers. All three candidates employ gay strategists at the national and state levels, and in the two weeks leading up to the New York primary on Feb. 5, representatives from each campaign said, they planned to concentrate on the state’s gay vote through mailings and rallies....

***

In an address last week honoring the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. at a black church in Atlanta, Senator Obama made waves by lecturing the audience about homophobia. “We have scorned our gay brothers and sisters instead of embracing them,” he said during the speech at Ebenezer Baptist Church, where Dr. King served as co-pastor with his father. Joe Solmonese, the president of the Human Rights Campaign, a gay lobbying group, said he thought Mr. Obama’s speech was the first time a presidential candidate had brought up gay issues in front of a nongay audience without being prompted to do so. “This is dramatically refreshing,” he said. “It’s a great day when we can look at a field of candidates and determine that we are comfortable with all of them on gay rights and move on to other issues.”

Still, many gay leaders said they are unhappy that none of the Democrats have embraced the cause of gay marriage, even if they understood the political calculus at play....

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/28/us/politics/28gay.html

[dsc]

1. talk about shoddy journalism

The second to last paragraph you quote is baldly false. Dean brought up civil unions all the time in Iowa. It was one of the main reasons I supported him.

[DeepModem Mom]

3. Thanks for this info, dsc. nt

[bigscott]

4. no shit

but that does not fit the bill for the BOH campaign - so let's just change it!

[no name no slogan]

27. Kucinich used to mention it all the time, too (in 2004)

And I'm fairly certain the others (Dodd, Biden, etc.) probably mentioned it in their speeches, too.

Shoddy journalism indeed.

[Iggo]

2. Gay rights are civil rights.

I'm just sayin'.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dsc]

6. I will be sure to invite you to the next funeral of a person who kills himself

when this ex gay stuff fails. After all, it doesn't really affect life.

[sandnsea]

9. I will be sure to remind you

of the millions of gays who will be welcomed into churches as Obama continues to take the fight for equality and inclusion to the congregations across the country and around the world.

[Critters2]

10. Obama seems to be distancing himself from the glbt policies of his own denomination

The UCC is the most gay-friendly Christian denomination. But Obama doesn't mention that when talking about his faith. Instead, he presents people like McClurkin and Kirbyjon CAldwell. And I, a fellow UCC, have to keep reassuring parishioners and friends that the UCC is NOT what Obama makes us look like.
If he's fighting for inclusion of gays into congregations, I wish he'd say so more clearly. And without the likes of Kirbyjon Caldwell.

[dsc]

12. Oh please

We have been fighting for inclusion in churches, all buy our lonesome mind you, long before Obama was anywhere near an open mike. Incidently, calling us sinners, isn't such a great place to start.

[sandnsea]

15. Hey, keep fighting by yourself if that's how you want it

I'm honest to god sick of the distortions of anybody who steps up to stand by your side. He did not call gays sinners. He told religious people that even if they want to consider gays sinners, that's still no excuse to deny anyone their rights because we don't deny rights based on who has or hasn't sinned.

[dsc]

17. He said, and I quote, we are all sinners

sorry but I have seen that construct before and know exactly and precisely what it means.

[karlrschneider]

24. And the unspoken part of that is "but YOUR sin is WAY WORSE and anyway

I've already been FORGIVEN for mine"
:grr:
:puke:

[NMMNG]

57. Bingo

That's exactly what it means.

"Yes, being a vile, perverted homosexual is disgusting and sinful. But then we're all sinners, (I just thank God we're not that sinful, like those homos who are going to burn in hell unless they repent from their vile ways) so who are we to judge?"


We know how to decipher the code-speak as well as the fundies do.

[mondo joe]

28. Imagine what other group would be included on the basis of "we're all loathsome like they are really

It's remarkable.

[sandnsea]

30. Just sad

"Like no other illness, AIDS tests our ability to put ourselves in someone else's shoes - to empathize with the plight of our fellow man. While most would agree that the AIDS orphan or the transfusion victim or the wronged wife contracted the disease through no fault of their own, it has too often been easy for some to point to the unfaithful husband or the promiscuous youth or the gay man and say "This is your fault. You have sinned."

I don't think that's a satisfactory response. My faith reminds me that we all are sinners.

My faith also tells me that - as Pastor Rick has said - it is not a sin to be sick. My Bible tells me that when God sent his only Son to Earth, it was to heal the sick and comfort the weary; to feed the hungry and clothe the naked; to befriend the outcast and redeem those who strayed from righteousness."



http://www.outfordemocracy.org/obama.htm

There's lots more there. Read it.

[dsc]

33. that is the exact construct ex gays use

You will never get this I realize that. Just like I can never get what it is to be a woman or black.

[bicentennial_baby]

35. You saying that makes your anti-choice stance kinda ironic...

Damn right you'll never understand what it's like to be a woman.

[dsc]

39. I don't claim to

in case you didn't notice.

[sandnsea]

36. That it's wrong to denigrate people??

For any reason? Wow. What's to get??

You didn't even read what was said, you really didn't.

[dsc]

41. actually they say that all the time

and then do it anyway. But yes, I could easily find a quote such as that on an ex gay website.

[sandnsea]

44. Oh, so we should stop challenging people

because sometimes they're hypocrites?? That's crazy. Moving people from out and out condemnation to tolerance is a step. Moving them to complete acceptance is a lot easier after that. Again, I am sick of being attacked for supporting civil unions when out there in the real world it's a fight to get some people to that point. I am sick of being attacked for knowing that getting people to at least stop bashing gays by challenging the sinfulnss of it is a big step. And I'm sick of being bashed about this McClurkin incident when I know full well Clinton has a boat load of homophobes on her campaign and Clinton supporters never say a word about them. Just like they never say a word about the boat load of crooks on her campaign and will fan this nothing Rezko thing into as hard as they can too. I have never seen such a bunch of vicious hypocrites as Hillary's gay supporters on DU. It's just the truth.

[dsc]

55. The point is they are not hypocrites

at least in their minds. They will listen to what Obama says and say "that is exactly what we do". They don't believe it is denegrating gays to say we are sinners who can change. While I don't believe for a minute that McClurkin thinks he is cured, I do believe he thinks he isn't anti gay.

[sandnsea]

59. That wasn't the point of Obama's statement

You are putting YOUR interpretations onto Obama and it just isn't valid. This is the GD Primary forum at DU where we are discussing Presidential candidates. McClurkin's problems can be discussed in a whole host of other forums on DU. Obama has made his point clear about McClurkin's views. I have answered his statement about sinners and shown that it has nothing to do with any ex-gay stupidity. But you won't hear any of it because you have gotten up on your reactionary high horse and don't know how to get down.

[dsc]

64. as a gay man raised in a fundamentalist religion

I know what these words mean, and I also know that Obama does too. This isn't my interpretation of the words, it is what the people whom Obama was addressing takes these words to mean. You can't go and give speeches in those forums, to those people, and then complain when people use the prism of those people to interpret those words.

[sandnsea]

69. Fine. I'll support ending AIDS funding from now on

You're on your own. Your way or no way. You've conviced me.

[hulklogan]

75. I hope you forgot this...

:sarcasm:

[sandnsea]

77. Hey, talking to people is a fuckin waste of time

Right?? Why should Obama or me or anybody else talk to people about gays and AIDS and suicide and the rest of it?

[hulklogan]

81. Good question!

Why should GLBT Americans talk to people about marriage and families and inheritance?

[sandnsea]

82. YOU said it was a waste of time

YOU win. You're on your own.

:shrug:

[Maven]

37. Wow.

That quotation makes me dislike him even more.

[hulklogan]

42. I'd rather hear Senator Obama tell the world

that GLBT Americans are not sinners.

I don't believe in sin, and I am not a sinner. I absolutely refuse to allow Senator Obama to call me one.

[sandnsea]

48. One step at a time

His purpose is to stop the hatred. It'll be a whole lot easier to get people to move the rest of the way if he can at least get them to the point where they know they have to stop condemning and hating.

[karlrschneider]

67. So do you agree with whoever that asshole "pastor Rick" is says about "sickness"?

:wtf:

[sandnsea]

70. That AIDS is a sickness? Yeah, I think it is n/t

[dsc]

71. that isn't what pastor rick means

he means gayness is a sickness.

[sandnsea]

74. NO. That is specifically comments about AIDS n/t

[Kucinich4America]

23. According to the tenets of Christianity, ALL are sinners.

Being gay doesn't make you a sinner, being human does.

[karlrschneider]

26. Which is bullshit, as "sin" is an imaginary construct, developed by

power-tripping assholes as a way to keep the playing field tilted.

[Kucinich4America]

45. If you're an atheist and consider the concept of sin invalid, maybe so

But I was responding to someone with a cross in his avatar, and whom I would presume to be a Christian for that reason.

My point is that those who consider gays somehow "worse" sinners than the rest of humanity are either fools or hypocrites, because they go against the doctrine of Christianity itself, which says God is no respecter of persons. He does not see one sin as being any worse than another. Therefore, those who get hung up on homosexuality because they consider it a "sin" are being judgmental hypocrites as they are themselves sinners.

[karlrschneider]

63. Well, I would remind you that the "doctrine of Christianity" depends on who's interpreting

(or inventing it) - there's no real agreement on the specifics, in fact there's a hell of a lot of antipathy between the various factions, every one claiming to possess the TRVTH. A pox on the lot of them, I say.

[mondo joe]

31. Gays aren't interested in being included because you're all as bad as us.

Really. What a pukey way to deascribe us.

[sandnsea]

34. For Christians who think differently

they need to be challenged that that isn't Christian thinking anyway.

[mondo joe]

51. They do need to be challenged. I'm still waiting for that to happen.

:-)

[sandnsea]

52. You have to listen to him to hear it n/t

[hulklogan]

43. GLBT Americans are not sinners

therefore, maybe we are better than the "everyone is an evil dirty sinner including me" people.

[Kucinich4America]

54. Now you're distorting things as bad as the homophobes do.

In God's eyes, all are sinners. No better, no worse. It's judgmental hypocrites who want to single out a group of people, based on something they don't understand, like sexual orientation, using out of context scripture references.

[mondo joe]

86. Bull. No other group gets identified first as "sinners" and then put in the context

of "well everyone is a sinner".

[sandnsea]

32. Context is everything

http://www.outfordemocracy.org/obama.htm

[NMMNG]

61. But they have their "levels" of sin

And of course being gay is so much worse than whatever they're doing. It's routinely compared to murder, thievery, adultery, pedophilia and the like. So we're worthy of life sentences in hell while they're only getting a tap on the hand. :eyes:

[Maven]

13. I'm sure he'll get them to "embrace" more of us, so they can help us overcome our "problem"

[Jamastiene]

19. Yeah, like they embraced me to hold me down

while I was raped, but hell, I should just "get over it" right? Fuck them and the phony Republican in Democrats clothing who is pandering to them.

[hulklogan]

40. These millions of gays are already welcomed into churches

The vicious anti-gay churches only want us there so they can torture us and make us ex-gays.

[sandnsea]

49. Yes I see marriages all over the country

because gays are so welcomed completely into the religious community. Right.

Change is easier if you start in reality.

[hulklogan]

65. If by reality you mean fantasy, then I guess you're right

There are hundreds of churches that welcome GLBT Americans with open arms without all this claptrap about "you're a sinner too" and "embrace the ex-gay change."

The Focus on the Family crowd isn't going to start sanctioning gay marriage just because Barack Obama mentions it in passing.

[sandnsea]

50. dupe

[Kucinich4America]

58. There are plenty of churches out there who accept you as you are

Plenty of Christians who do as well. I'm one of them. Though I'm presently unaffiliated with any church. (homophobes were one of the many reasons I left the church I grew up in.)

[sandnsea]

60. And we need ALL churches to do that

which means SOMEBODY has to go into those churches and say so. Obama is doing that, which is something liberals have said they wanted to happen for years.

[hulklogan]

62. I'd better buy my skates now because it's going to be one great hockey game

in hell when Saint Obama convinces the Southern Baptists to perform gay marriages.

[sandnsea]

68. Don't beat him up for trying n/t

[hulklogan]

72. Senator Obama can do whatever he wants

Even if that includes talking to anti-gay christians who are likely to ignore him. I'm not going to actively support him for doing it, though, because I think it's a waste of time.

[sandnsea]

76. Yeah, we could go back 30 years I suppose n/t

[hulklogan]

78. And Senator Obama is the only one who can prevent that, right?

He's reaching Chuck Norris levels of invincibility!

[sandnsea]

83. When all you have left is snark, you lose n/t

[jackson_dem]

7. Keep telling yourself that

[Maven]

11. Whiny nellies?

BTW, CBS and countless blogs (particularly GLBT-interest, but others as well) have reported on both McClurkin and Caldwell.

Don't presume to tell us what is or isn't important to our rights. I doubt you're doing much to help us obtain them.

[Bluebear]

16. OMG who on "ignore" said THAT??

[dsc]

18. DrFunkelstein

[karlrschneider]

29. I wonder if "Dr" fuckingstain even knows what it means...

:eyes:

[NMMNG]

80. Same bullshit, different day

Funny how our very legitimate outrage is continuously marginalized while their outrage is everything in the world to them (and therefore should be to us and everybody else).

I'm beyond sick and bloody tired of being marginalized and ignored.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jamastiene]

20. Well said.

:thumbsup:

[mondo joe]

21. "Whiny nellies"? Nice.

:puke:

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ruggerson]

25. HEY STRAIGHT PEOPLE. Wake the fuck up! Why aren't you condemnnig Dr Fuckenstein?

why is it always gay people who have to defend themselves from this shit on this forum?

[Jamastiene]

38. Thank you.

It's good to know good allies are out there. Thank you for speaking up. :)

[hulklogan]

46. "Whiny nellies"??? What an assholeish thing to say n/t

[Sapphocrat]

84. Somebody called us "whiny nellies"?

Has it been tombstoned yet?

[NMMNG]

85. Yes and no.

Some things are apparently more acceptable than others.

[Solon]

56. Nice display of insensitivity and homophobia...

fucking ass.

[jackson_dem]

8. Edwards wrote a bill to make sexual orientation a protected category in job discrimination

In light of the swiftboating of his record I thought I would take a moment to mention that.

[Tektonik]

47. 'The impromptu debate, over light beers and dirty martinis' I stopped reading

:puke:

[hulklogan]

53. There is another explanation for why GLBT Americans aren't mentioning "gay"

Perhaps they, like many of us here on DU, realize that none of the candidates in this election really care about GLBT issues as much as we would like them to. Perhaps they have grudgingly accepted the fact that GLBT Americans will be mostly invisible for the next four years no matter which "civil unionist" wins the election. Perhaps we're tired of defending ourselves on forums like DU from people who call us whiners and tell us to shut the hell up whenever we speak out for GLBT issues.

I'm thinking it's time to tell straight people what to think. We've listened to them telling us what to think about GLBT issues for too long already.

edited to remove a phrase that referenced another post that has been removed.

[Kucinich4America]

66. Pray for a gridlocked convention in Denver then

Maybe you'll get a nominee who just recently announced his support for gay marriage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZsVIoOx4Zg

[hulklogan]

73. If only. I'd do whatever I could to get a candidate like that

except pray :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[robbedvoter]

79. What can I say? It's NYT!