Maybe it's wrong of me

[cali]

but thinking about the IWR still makes me so angry and sad I can go to shaking with anger in a split second. And what really makes me furious is seeing people here defending it. It abbrogated the Constitution. It was a blank check. It was inevitable from the moment it passed that we would destroy a county and kill untold numbers of people and throw the world inton chaos.

Maybe I should let it go.

But I can't.

[Kittycat]

1. You shouldn't let it go.

Someone died today, and someone(some many) will die tomorrow because of that single decision.

[Maddy McCall]

2. Is that the only thing that you guys can continue to hurl at Clinton supporters?

I'm still an Edwards undecided, but it seems that, oh, 40 of these threads tonight, always by Obama supporters, are enough to get the point across.

(Edit to add: I'm sorry that you got pegged with my response of frustration at the multitudef of threads that say the SAME thing in the past 45 minutes.)

[peoli]

3. its a big one, it really is.

[Maddy McCall]

6. Yeah, and there are 40 threads on it.

Why can't people discuss the issue on a thread instead of 40 people starting new threads about it. That doesn't allow people to discuss the issue. It spreads it out all over the forum.

[scheming daemons]

13. 40 threads on IWR tonight... 200 threads on handshake "snub" two nights ago...

..at least the things the Obama supporters are harping on are

Fucking important!

[Maddy McCall]

18. Yep, and the 200 threads on the handshake were too many, too.

This forum has become more of a place where supporters hurl shit at each other than a place where people can DISCUSS their differences.

Starting 50 threads on any single topic is a waste of bandwidth AND a waste of good discussion, which CAN occur in a single thread, but which cannot occur in 50 stream-of-consciousness threads on the same topic, because they are spread all over the place. NO one wants to have to post well-structured posts in 50 different threads.

[parasim]

31. Personally, I like a lot of threads on something...

it shows that people on this board care about an issue and want to talk about it.

If the subject line indicates that it is an issue that I don't care about, I don't click on it.

[Tom Rinaldo]

17. I agree. It is a big one.

But she wouldn't have started that war and if we had a remotely non ideologically driven President at the time that resolution would not have led to war, it would have led to U.N. inspectors confirming that Iraq had no WMD's and a complete deescalation of tensions around that.

Of course we did have an ideologically driven President and Hillary should have factored that in and she did not. So there is much to blame her and a lot of other good Senators for. But the point remains, Hillary Clinton would not have started that war - there would have been no war if the U.N. inspectors were allowed to finish their work, and the IWR did provide leverage that helped get the UN inspectors into Iraq.

Looking past that terrible moment, her record in the Senate regarding Iraq is the same as Obama's. There may be nuanced differences between them on what we should do now regarding Iraq but those nuances are microscopic compared to McCain.

And then there are all the other issues facing our nation, and Hillary has a pretty good handle on them.

[cali]

26. I know she wouldn't have started it, Tom and believe it or not

my post wasn't really about Hilary. I don't for a moment believe that she's a warmonger or any of the idiotic stuff in that vein that's been posted, but just hearing her justify her vote was enough to reawake that anger that I feel about the vote. I even understand why she isn't apologizing and I don't hold that against her, but I hate hearing from anyone that it wasn't a vote for war- because it really was.

[Tom Rinaldo]

36. I get where you are coming from, honest I do

I had to look past that in order to support Hillary, and of course I couldn't have looked past it if I believed that she would have pursued a policy that led to that war on her own. But, like with Kerry, I realized Hillary could end up being a pretty damn good President if elected, for a broad range of important issues. I think she is strong enough to fight for us on things that are really important to me. But again - yes, given all the pain and suffering and waste and death that the war in Iraq that sprang from that vote brought, I understand why it can be so hard for you to not have an instant angry response to hearing about that vote in any way other than the most stark plea for forgivess regarding it.

[Usrename]

45. I don't understand where you are coming from at all. Not even a little bit.

In a single response to this post, is there any acceptable explanation for any of their behavior? I'm going to just roll Hillary in with the rest of them, because I don't think she is all that unique among the party leadership. Is there an explanation for her/their behavior?

The way I look at the world, there is no good explanation. At least with Edwards it was a lot more understandable. Someone very new to the scene (as Edwards was) shouldn't be faulted too harshly for not recognizing the depths of depravity that exist in our party's own leadership. But at least when his eyes were finally opened to the truth, he began to speak out loudly and strongly against this twisted bullshit.

What do you think is Hillary's excuse, really, if there is one? I personally think she likes this bullshit and will be happy to keep things running this way. She doesn't seem to see anything wrong with it; she doesn't appear to think that Bush is a war criminal, she doesn't let on that the US oil companies that are right now trying to bribe the Iraqi Parliment are committing any international crimes, she doesn't even seem to view this as an unjust war and illegal occupation...

WHAT IS SHE THINKING?

That's all I want to know; how do you manage to look past all this stuff? Do you assume certain people are just stupid, and not evil, that they just aren't quite smart enough to know right from wrong? IMHO, idiot Bush really does believe in his heart (if he even has one) that Hillary wanted this war, and why shouldn't he think so? Why is Bush any worse than any of the other assholes who got us into this? If anything Bush should be the one getting the pass; he, at the very least, has the excuse of being too mentally challenged to even be able to read and comprehend the IWR.

[cali]

7. god, fuck *throws up hands*

this isn't about Clinton. I've felt that way for over 5 years. I felt that way in 2004. I felt Edwards was even more wrong than Clinton, and I don't even care about apologies. I felt even more betrayed by Kerry than Clinton.

oh never mind. you are clueless.

[Maddy McCall]

14. Evidently you've not seen the 40 other threads in this forum on the same topic.

But we must have 40, so that everyone can get their feelings out, instead of having a good discussion of it contained to a single thread. :eyes:

[sandnsea]

23. Oh, I've got hoards of reasons not to vote for her

I don't care about the IWR, I care that she went over to Iraq and Afghanistan in 2003 and said we needed to "stay the course". I care that she supported this war, over and over, and then wants to attack Obama for having very little options available to him.

She then supports the Iran Resolution, and tonight says we need more "coersive diplomacy", meaning we're going to continue with this bullying foreign policy.

Then there's the fundraising scandals. And the coziness to foreign outsourcers.

Add to that the repeated incidents of sleazy campaign tactic this cycle alone.

There's hoards of reasons to dislike the Clintons and a lot of us know all the reasons and won't forget them no matter how well Hillary composes herself in one evening.

It is still a bafflement to me that anyone who pays attention is supporting her.

[AGirl]

4. I think you have to be angry at the democrats

instead of just Hillary.

[cali]

15. Did I mention Hillary? NO

And no I'm not mad at all democrats. I'm not mad at my Senator Pat Leahy who told his colleagues it was a BlANK CHECK and a Tonkin Gulf resolution that would lead to disaster. I'm not mad at my other Senator at the time, Jim Jeffords, who stood against it. I'm not mad at Robert Byrd. I'm not mad at Teddy Kennedy. I'm not mad at any of the dem reps and Senators who stood bravely against the travesty. I'm mad at those who fucking voted for it and helped launch this terrible bloody disasterous fucking war.

[Mojorabbit]

5. It bothers me too

It is like being on the freep board with a bunch of koolaid drinkers. If it was a republican who had voted for the war there would be no quarter given. Don't get me wrong, I think they are both fabulous candidates but it does bother me that she will not admit the mistake. But even more than that that people here say it is no big deal. It IS a big deal. And no I don't have a fav candidate. Both of them are my last on my list.

[Bonobo]

8. I've heard Franked refer to the Senate as "the Cooling Cup" or something like that.

The concept was that it exists in large part to protect the nation from rash actions through their wisdom and calm collectedness.

You are right to be anger. They betrayed our trust and as a result, a dictator was allowed to take over the reins of this country. Millions have died as a result and tens of millions had their lives ruined.

My opinion? She was yielding to political pressure because her instincts told her the American people were still angry and that she was in danger of being perceived as being too "dove-ish".

In essence, she voted for the politically expediency of it. It sickens me and leaves me angry every single time too.

[Fresh_Start]

9. The Congress has abrogated it responsibility

almost every single day for the last 7 years or more

I think that there should be civil and criminal penalties for Congresspeople.
But they skate all liability except for the most egregious

[lapfog_1]

10. Rachael Maddow just vented the same feelings.

And told a story of driving in a car that night of the vote, and crying when she heard the explanation of Hillary at the time.

And I remember being home watching it on the tube... and feeling sick.

And it turned out SOOOO much worse than I feared... I thought it was wrong to attack a country that had NOT attacked us (remember that OBL had already been identified as the perpetrator, and I knew enough about the ME to know that secular Saddam would NOT be in bed with fundy OBL).

And I felt sick... and I kept thinking about the Dems voting... "what are they doing???" Let the repukes have this blood on THEIR hands... not on ours!

[MonkeyFunk]

11. stress like that can kill a person

so keep thinking

[cali]

29. don't get hopes up sweetie,

And sorry, my life is actually relatively stress free.

[MonkeyFunk]

44. It was a joke

you should start a thread about it.

[havocmom]

12. Nope. Do not let it go. It matters greatly. It gives insight into decision making

and values. The info was there for you and I to know the pretext for war was bogus. A US Senator should have had NO TROUBLE getting accurate information before that vote. Failure to do so, or failure to buck the hawks if she had accurate info, indicates that posture was more important than all the innocent lives that would be lost, all the honor of our nation thrown away. For posturing! For BLOODY posturing! For shame and sin!

The refusal to admit to the mistake of signing that blank check for cheney shows hubris and inflexibility of ego which is dangerous in the extreme.

No, don't let it go, cali. Don't EVER give a pass on this one.

[Skip Intro]

16. Question: Did you vote Kerry/Edwards in 04?

If so, how did you reconcile their votes for the IWR?

[cali]

30. I did and I never reconciled it. I did not vote for either in the primary

I will NEVER vote for anyone in the primary who voted for it. And if Hillary is the nominee I'll vote for her in the general.

[JI7]

19. i think people only had a problem with Kerry voting for it

it was ok for others to do it.

[AlCzervik]

20. who'd you vote for in 2004?

[JI7]

22. she supported Dean in the Primary

[AlCzervik]

25. so did i but i voted for Kerry in the general. I have a nephew on his 3rd tour right

now.

[AlCzervik]

21. dupe

[cali]

33. this isn't even about voting though I won't vote for anyone in the Primary

who voted for it. I voted for Kerry in the general, and I'll vote for Clinton in the general if she's the nominee.

[parasim]

24. Why should you let it go?

and why would you think it is wrong of you? That blank check was all the neocons needed to put forth their plan and all those who voted for it knew that. and if they claim that they didn't know that, that they were "naive", or whatever, then what business do they have being in the position they were elected to?

I know that I expect a lot more out of those that I vote for.

[subsuelo]

27. I know how you feel

Iraq had nothing to with Sept 11th. Nothing. We attacked them based on racism, fear, greed, all the wrong things you ever want to kill other people over. And we did it.

With. Hillary's. Support.

[ursi]

28. I can't let it go either ...for the troops and the children who died in Iraq

[Ravy]

32. Killing them by containment sanctions was better????

The choice was not so clear cut. The IWR would have worked had it been allowed to run its course and remained the threat of invasion rather than Bush cancelling the progress and invading.

I can see people disagreeing with the vote, but non-action was killing Iraqis, too.

[cali]

35. it couldn't have been clearer cut and the

disaster that is the Iraq War is even worse than the containment policy- about a million times worse. And I suggest you go read Pat Leahy's speech about why it was unconstitutional and nothing but a blank fucking check and a Tonkin War sham resolution.

[Ravy]

38. But the Iraq war wasn't the necessary conclusion to the IWR.

Even Obama said that tonight. He said the "potential" for going to war was there.

I think the potential for war had to be present to make Saddam comply. I don't think war was the right decision while Saddam was complying and even seeking asylum in another country.

There were some of us who just "knew" at the time what Bush was going to do, and they do deserve some credit for being right. The best thing would have been a Levin-like amendment that a majority could have supported.

[cali]

43. Sure it was. All I can say is go read Pat Leahy's speech on

his website. It's Oct 2002. Leahy makes it completely clear that it's a vote for war. And as he'd served 30 years in the Senate at that time, I see no reason to doubt what he said. I knew it was a vote for war.

[jasmine621]

34. Hey, I feel the same way you do. I didn't agree with HC vote but

I can understand it as I can understand the harsh feelings bout HC's vote. But my god, she is not solely responsible for the what happened and what is going on now. We could to the extreme of saying that if Gore had run a better campaign we might not have had to have that vote. Kerry voted for that resolution as did 27 other Dems. Can't we support the persons who are now trying to get us out of there? Hillary showed her breadth of knowledge about what is going on now and it will not be a simple matter to just pull troops out. I thought she made a compelling case for how to take the next steps to get our troops home. I would venture to say, that outside of the pure Hillary haters here, in the media and elsewhere, most people found the response thoughtful and Presidential. It appears that all you want is for her to say, "that vote was a mistake." I would much rather hear that it was a decision, even though I don't agree with it, that she believed was the right one when she made it. What would it change if she now said it was a mistake? What then would you have to hold against her? That indeed would be political expediency.

[alittlelark]

37. I haven't let it go.

I can't.

The 'WRONGNESS' of it is overwhelming.

[DURHAM D]

39. I honestly don't believe anyone who says they cried about the IWR.

I just don't buy it.

However, I believe everyone who says they cried because this great country started a preemptive war against Iraq.

At the time when Bush began the war 7 out of 10 people were for it and with him. I cried and I felt so alone. Finally I started calling old political friends around the country and we just kept repeating "This is the U.S. and we just don't do this. Our country is forever changed. We will never have the moral high ground again. This is the worse foreign policy decision in our history"

[Whisp]

40. cali,

I think we may have had some minor fisticuffs here in the past but I so agree with you now.

we can't let this go.
this travesty to so many while the enablers walk about all safe and untouched and try to turn the story around.

[FrenchieCat]

41. Well, I might "let go", but I ain't rewarding anyone for it......

And my vote is to be considered a reward.

I'm happy with Obama! He did excellent.

I Love a candidate who says exactly what I wanted him to say, and he did! :)

[proud2BlibKansan]

42. Who here was defending it??

:wtf:

[Usrename]

46. I hear ya, I think.

It's easy for folks here to admit they are more afraid of Bush than terrorists, but it's a whole nother leap to where you are.