Clinton and Obama supporters - on IWR

[never_get_over_it]

Folks I really think that when it comes to Iraq we need to look past the IWR vote when comparing the two candidates. NOT BECAUSE THIS VOTE WAS NOT IMPORTANT - NOT BECAUSE THEY WERE FOOLED - The night of this Senate vote was one of the WORST nights of my life - it is truly when the Democratic Party LEFT ME by the way side.

I say for the purposes of comparing Obama and Clinton we have to look past this vote because Obama was not in the Senate and did not have to make that vote We will NEVER know for sure how he would have voted. Sure he says he would have voted no - but politicians SAY a lot of things.

I for one believe he would have voted just as stupidly as Kerry, Clinton and Edwards and for the same damn reason - POLITICAL AMBITION - these four people had Presidential ambitions - it was close to the 2004 Congressional election - their idiot advisers told them to vote this way - and I truly believe Obama would have been no different.

So when comparing the two on Iraq we really should compare them when they both were in the same position that is in the Senate - and sadly I don't see a difference in the two

I will admit however that Hillary's refusal to admit it was a mistake annoys the shit out of me - however I'm not so sure if Obama HAD made the vote he wouldn't refuse to apologize too.

So Clinton and Obama supporters - from January 2005 when Obama and Clinton were both in the Senate who has the better record on Iraq I know Obama gave a speech in opposition to the war in 2002 and that is GOOD - but I also know it was removed from his website when he was running for Senate which is bad so please from January 2005 to now - who has the better record - apples to apples - from everything I know it is pretty much a tie....

Actually I think there is very little difference between the two at all - I wish I could get excited about either one - but I can't. I will vote for the Democratic nominee in November but I would love to be convinced that I will be doing more than voting against John McCain

So without ugliness please - help me out here - convince me I need to vote FOR one of them.....

[GalleryGod]

1. 11 of my college students emailed me last night: In Re: IWR & Levin Amendment Votes by HRC.

They predicted,collectively... this is the "wooden stake" (love that college hyperbole)
Obama will wield ALL the WAY to Denver...


Especially in light of $32 Million from 170,000 donors in January,2008.


"FUELED-UP...Ready to Fly !"

[GalleryGod]

2. Rachel Madow spoke of listening to Hillary's speech from the floor that night, and crying.

Interesting anecdote.

[UALRBSofL]

6. Your students could be right about that

And if that's the case I'd be proud of him as our president. I would hope IWR isn't the only defining reason they would refuse to vote for Hillary because there is a big picture they could be missing.

[jasmine621]

18. I agree. Hillary's response last night on getting out was reasoned,

comprehensive, and realistic and most protective of the troops, our civilians working there, and the Iraqi people who helped us. She gets it. I believe she would work swiftly to start the withdrawl.

[dkf]

3. I think it is important because it will make or break our argument against John McCain

The best way to defeat John McCain imo is to be against the Iraq war.

Hillary is vulnerable because she is partly responsible for getting us in the war. In addition, her argument is that the execution of the war is the problem. Therefore, if McCain can make the argument to the American people that we can execute properly, he can win this debate.

Obama's argument will be that the entire operation was misguided, not just the execution. He will have a better chance of beating McCain AND getting us out of Iraq.

[never_get_over_it]

16. That is a good point

thank you

[Zueda]

4. Barack was running for Senate

And still took the so called 'unpopular stance'.

[Coexist]

13. Yes, he did - there is an interview with him and Howard Dean stating this

he was definately against the IWR in all forms.

[Captain Hilts]

24. Not in a competitve race. nt

[sunonmars]

5. Thank you for pointing out something sane

i think you have to go with your heart, you've heard everything from them now, its up to you.

Hillary spelled it out very clear last night. Its about us as voters, we must take a decision and be responsible for that decision.

Personally, I know everything i need to know about Hillary, she's a tough strong woman that gets results. I've watched her for years. I unfortunately cannot say that for Obama, i just think its completely the wrong time to be thinking of an unknown character so short of time on a national level. 2 wars to be sorted, an economy in trouble, a huge terrorism problem. People don't need hope to pay their bills, they need help.

I've decided Hillary because she impreses me most.

You have to decide for yourself

This whole election will come down to the economy again.

[pampango]

7. The "I made a mistake, but you would have too, if you were in my position" excuse is weak.

I hear it a lot, but most of us in the real world have to pay a price for our mistakes. Few times are we excused from our mistakes due to our protestations that others might have made the same mistake I did.

I realize that politicians play by different rules than the rest of us do, but it still bothers me. (Oh and I agree that Obama may well have voted for the IWR (we'll never know) since every Democratic senator at the time who has since run for president voted for it. Obviously, future political calculations had as much to do with their votes as did the "right or wrong" of the IWR.)

[sunonmars]

9. come of it, he gets a free pass because he wasnt in the senate

Its all very well to say i didnt support the war but had he been in the senate, who knows. He wasnt privy to all the information put in front of senators.

[pampango]

12. I didn't see "free pass" in my post. What I did say was '"Oh and I agree that Obama may well have

voted for the IWR (we'll never know) since every Democratic senator at the time who has since run for president voted for it. Obviously, future political calculations had as much to do with their votes as did the "right or wrong" of the IWR."

Logically, I think Obama probably would have voted for the IWR, since every Democratic senator with presidential ambitions did. I can't prove it, though, so I give him a little benefit of the doubt that I can't give to those who actually did vote for it.

I believe that most Democratic senators saw through the "intelligence" BS. Those who voted "yes" on the IWR either had presidential ambitions or were from red or purple states. In either case their vote was probably a result of political calculation. I can't prove that (any more than I can prove how Obama would have voted), but when you look at how Democratic senators voted there seems to be a pattern.

[never_get_over_it]

15. I made a mistake you would have too

is not really my point - we'll never know for sure - and I don't like excuses for mistakes - but because we'll never know I'm trying to compare apples to apples meaning when they were BOTH in the Senate does one hold the anti-Iraq edge or not...that's my point.

[Zueda]

21. That may depend on how you interpret the Kyl/Lieberman bill.

[never_get_over_it]

26. Well what I know about Kyl LIEberman

Hillary voted yes which SUCKED
and Obama didn't have the balls to vote at all - which to me SUCKS MORE...

[Zueda]

27. Depends on how you look at it....

Why skip a beat to go cast a vote that would not make a difference when you can keep campaigning so to better your chances at the nomination and then on to 1600 PA Ave where he can break the craphole dynasty that has deeply divided us as a nation preventing any real tangible change for the betterment of society.

[Zueda]

8. What issues are most important to you?

[GalleryGod]

11. Here's Three:

IWR Vote
Levin Amendment
Immigration "Fence along the border"


HIllary= Wrong on Day #1.

[Adelante]

10. I refuse to accept the IWR as distant past when people are dying in the present

The IWR vote is why we are where we are today. Our public officials must be held accountable for the biggest foreign policy disaster since Vietnam or what is our democracy about? Once we were in there it's not so easy getting out and that's why it has to be the last, last, last resort, always, going in. You can vote for Clinton if you disagree.

[never_get_over_it]

17. OK

you have completely missed my point sometimes this place is SO FRUSTRATING because people don't read or read into posts what they want


THERE IS NO VOTE MORE IMPORTANT TO ME THAN IWR - I HATE THAT HILLARY VOTED FOR IT

My point is I have absolutely no way of knowing if Barack would have done the same damn thing and truthfully I believe he would have Therefore it is not fair to give him credit for not voting for it because he didn't NOT vote for it.

I am specifically looking for what they have both done since they were both in the Senate - apples to apples - to see which one has a better anti Iraq record....

[BootinUp]

22. The IWR vote is NOT why we are where we are today.

All you have to do to reach that conclusion is think about what would have happened if THAT vote went differently. Do you think Bush and the republicans would put their tails between the legs and wimper away? We would STILL have invaded in March of '03 even with the October vote going differently. Why? because there would have been another vote in January with the new congress a congress with less of us. Becuase there would have been more months elapsed with no inspections going on. More distorted intelligence and drum beating. One vote could not stop it. Bush could have launched military action without a resolution at all in fact. As we know the forces were already there, he could have justified a strike any number of ways. STOP BLAMING DEMOCRATS. That is my plea fwiw.

[OzarkDem]

14. Which candidate will get us out fastest?

That's the important question. Any answers folks?

[jasmine621]

19. Hillary for this reason

Hillary. Because she has to prove to us that she means what she says and redeem herself.

She had the most complete and reasoned, comprehensive, and realistic and most protective of the troops, our civilians working there, and the Iraqi people who helped us. She gets it. I believe she would work swiftly to start the withdrawl.

[never_get_over_it]

20. Yep that is the best question

but right now to me it looks pretty much like a tie....

that one will sure be easy in the general election though - but the general elections are ALWAYS easier for me than the primaries since I have vowed NEVER to vote for a repunk for the rest of my life.

[Zueda]

23. not really a tie...

Hillary still leaves a little more wiggle room.

[JohnnyLib2]

25. One the one hand--principles. On the other--political reality.

This is not a perfect world and they don't always coincide. IMO, the voting public will not be focused on that 2002 vote (political reality).

In this most fascinating combination of "semi-finalists," the whole darn popularity and appeal to hearts and minds is likely to dominate (political reality if I'm correct). That's why we saw the huge positive response to BOTH candidates in last night's debates.

So, I agree with your suggestion of moving on, even though some sacrifice of principle is obvious.