>>>So in your opinion, who won the debate last night?>>>>

[Phillycat]

Poll question: >>>So in your opinion, who won the debate last night?>>>>

I watched it. I thought they both had some great answers (Hillary's "It took a Clinton to clean up after a Bush last time..." and Barack's "I think Hillary would be on anyone's short list" - I really thought for a second he was going to just offer her a cabinet position right then LOL!) and it sure was a breath of fresh air to see politicians who speak in complete sentences, with multi-syllabic words, and enjoy intellectual discourse.

Hillary comes across to me as more experienced, and also more "slick". She strikes me as a liar and a 100% politician. Obama was charming and ingratiating, but had no real substance. He comes off as a lovely shell with nothing underneath. And in the end, I saw no substantive difference between the two.

It goes without saying that either of them would be a vast improvement over any of the Republican candidates.

If I had to pick, I'd say Hillary won the debate, even with her flubbing over the IWR thing. She was smooth and practiced, and never looses her cool, which I like. I also like her laugh, although I know a lot of people don't. She's very likable, isn't she? It's worrisome, because I don't think she can be trusted. But she's charming as hell and certainly seems to have all the answers.

I still think Obama may be able to win the general more easily than Hillary. Although at this point, I'm concerned about either of them beating McCain.

Who won, DU?

[livetohike]

1. For me, Sen. Obama won the debate because

I have a hard time accepting Sen. Clinton's IWR vote. She has never apologized for it and I have a hard time understanding and believing her explanations. I think if Sen. Obama wins the GE we will get out of Iraq sooner.

[Phillycat]

3. Would you feel better if she said "I made a mistake", or does she

actually need to say "I'm sorry"? I'm wondering, because I remember Kerry apologizing for his vote and the Right ripping him apart for being weak. It's a fine line they have to walk (and of course you're right, the vote was WRONG WRONG WRONG to begin with) but what does she do now?

[livetohike]

10. When a leader can't admit they made a mistake, I worry

so....in the end, I will vote for her if she is the nominee, but for now my primary vote will go to Obama. (If it is still a race by our primary on April 22). I was a Kucinich supporter.

She doesn't have to say I'm sorry for me. She just has to say it was a mistake.

[butterfly77]

45. They want her to say that she made a mistake..

so that they can beat her over the head with it..

[rodeodance]

81. and 'they ' will--it would be her downfall at this point.

[rodeodance]

8. like the RW'er's you need her graveling on her knees--then you might be

satisfied--but I doubt it.

[livetohike]

How dare you!! You have no clue

how left I am. I don't need her graveling. She made a mistake on that vote. I thought it then and I think it now.

The war is the primary issue for me. What's yours?

[livetohike]

13. How dare you!! You have no clue

how left I am. I don't need her graveling. She made a mistake on that vote. I thought it then and I think it now.

The war is the primary issue for me. What's yours?

[rodeodance]

71. I hear it from RWer's so so often. So, your comment fit in with rhetoric.

Glad to hear that you do not need her graveling. Sorry that I applied it to you.

The war is one of many issues that will determine my vote.

[livetohike]

82. Thank you

:-). I hope our nominee, whomever it is will make this a priority,too.

[Phillycat]

18. If you read the rest of this thread...

you might notice you are the only one foaming at the mouth with fanatacism. Can you please either discuss the debate reasonably or excuse yourself? Thanks in advance.

[livetohike]

21. When I am compared to a RW, I am going to defend myself

I don't see how expressing my opinion about Hillary's IWR is fanaticism. You started this thread and I assumed since you asked for an opinion that my opinion is as valid as anyone else who is a member of DU.

There are things I like about Sen. Clinton, btw.

[Phillycat]

25. Wasn't talking to you, darlin. :)

Was responding to rodeodance.

[livetohike]

29. Im sorry and

Thanks janesez :thumbsup:. I'm still upset about being compared to a RW.

[Phillycat]

30. It's almost like Godwin's Law here on DU, isn't it?

Once someone says "You're just like the Repukes!" they're out of reasoned argument and they've lost. :D

[livetohike]

33. If someone wants to argue with a Repuke, they need to meet

my sister in law. I was over her place yesterday and she was spewing every Fox news/Rush limbaugh talking point :eyes:. I'm working on an e-mail to her now. Lots of work to be done there.

[Phillycat]

34. "Never wrestle with a pig."

"You'll both get covered in shit, and the pig likes it."

I believe that was Mark Twain. :D

[livetohike]

37. ROFL - well she's been in our family for 25 years now

Unfortunatley, my Dad isn't alive to tell her she's crazy :-).

[INdemo]

40. Hey......turn the Freeper filter on and move on..you're never gonna win that argument

its imposible ti win against right wing sympathizers

[rodeodance]

70. you could have said

what you did without the lier term used.

simple as that.

[goldcanyonaz]

52. It would be political suicide, and she knows it. Remember Kerry?

Mr. I was for the war before I was against it?

In my opinion, that's what really lost him the election.

[Phillycat]

54. On the other hand...

I loved Obama last night when he said, "I don't want Yes Men. Some of the decisions I make will be wrong, and I need good people around me to tell me so." They aren't always right, and I think if they can just admit that in a CLEAR NON-DEFENSIVE WAY (not "I was for the war before I was against it" and not the word salad that Hillary stumbled over last night) it might actually be a strength. :shrug:

[GoldieAZ49]

65. more importantly

you are less likely to make poor decisions if your advisors are not 'yes men'

Experts in their particular area that able to give fact and possible outcomes and not be afraid of upsetting the POTUS

That was the down fall of the LBJ administration, they told him what they thought he wanted to hear about Vietnam instead of the truth...it was devastating to LBJ when he learned the truth

[MethuenProgressive]

2. I voted Clinton, but for the record: Our Democratic Party won.

:kick:

[Phillycat]

5. It was nice to see intelligent, attractive people up there, wasn't it?

And a black man and a woman in the national debate as the last 2 candidates? It's a new day, for sure.

[redqueen]

6. Aw... "democrat party"

:(

I hate that sooooo much.

[rodeodance]

4. your post was fine till you tossed in the word lier for Clinton.

[Phillycat]

7. Whoops, forgot to run all my posts by you before I posted them. Heh.

I think she's a liar. :shrug: If you don't, post your own thread.

[Clinton Crusader]

9. Minor of course, but I'm glad you mentioned her laugh

So many make fun of her laugh, call it a cackle. I love her laugh. It sounds so genuine, the kind of laugh that makes you laugh.

She doesn't come across to me as a liar. But then again I think ALL politicians are liars, every single one of them. So that's contradictory isn't it?

[Phillycat]

12. Yeah, I guess that's what I mean.

That 100% politician thing. I get the feeling from her that she would never, ever allow herself to be human and make a choice that maybe wouldn't benefit her politically. That's scary to me.

And yes, I believe they're all liars, but I do think some of them show chinks in their armor sometimes...

[Lisa0825]

49. I'm not a fan of Hillary, but I love her laugh!

I think it sounds really genuine and fun. Actually, it's a lot like my own laugh!

[sunonmars]

11. I'm with Bill Bennet on this, and christ that hurts me as it is to say that

I just don't think sleeping on it, Barack did enough to say, hey i'm different. Hillary seemed to be getting better responses and better applause from the audience. He needed to blow her out of the water last night and didnt do it, he played it safe again and Clinton still came off well. Her likeability went up by an astronomical mile last night. She finally connected with people and boy did it show.

The immigration favoured Hillary as did healthcare, i think Obama fell flat on those. Especially his gaffe on Hillary doing nothing on immigration and she whalloped him with "I was cosponsoring comprehensive immigration reform in 2004 when you were not in the senate", that got tremendous applause. She nailed him with that and could not respond.

Iraq is something way down the list on a lot of peoples reasons for voting, economy is trumping the Democratic vote by a mile and Obama does not seemed to have grasped this is the case. The more Hillary bangs on about good Clinton economic times, the more votes she'll get, the more Obama bangs on about Iraq and not the economy is going to lose him votes.

I honestly think in these 24 states on Tuesday, people will go into that booth and think which one is going to help me feed my kids, get me a job, fix the economy. Thats where Clinton's strength will lie.

Advantage Clinton i think

[Phillycat]

15. I watched it on cnn.com with the "people meter" thing

Where the viewers could press an up or down button if they agreed with what the candidate was saying. Hillary's numbers were consistently better than Barack's throughout the debate. And they had half Hillary supporters and half Barack supporters on the thing, so...yeah, I think she came off better.

I agree, immigration favored Hillary completely, her argument was cohesive and practical. Healthcare I think they were split, because a lot of people don't really understand Hillary's plan and don't like the word "mandatory" for anything. That was her lowest numbers of the evening on the "thingie". But in general, she came off very, very well.

Yeah, it always hurts to agree with Bill Bennett, doesn't it? :D

[rodeodance]

73. Well, Obama called a presser today--media cut him off. Telling isn't it:

economy is trumping the Democratic vote by a mile and Obama does not seemed to have grasped this is the case

[johncoby2]

14. Love Obama! but Hillary is just better.

Been watching both for months. Everytime I have the same feeling. Hillary is head and shoulders above Obama, but he inspires the heck out of me.

Whoever gets the nod will make McCain the next Bob Dole.

[Phillycat]

16. God, let's hope so. They're both incredibly charming, aren't they?

I hope to god the rest of America agrees with us.

[rodeodance]

75. so do I

[adapa]

17. substance is the better offense against McCain,

two thoughts;
I think the best way to beat McCain will be with a good command of the domestic issues & a *strong* stance on national defense & foreign policy.

with regards to the slick issue, I can't help but think, yes she may shade the truth or leave stuff out but I believe she is working for us as opposed to the corporations.

My dream ticket
Clinton/Obama

[Phillycat]

23. But how to know for sure?

She takes so much money from the corporations, how do we know she'll turn around and work for us? That really concerns me. And it's not just Hillary - as much as Obama's supporters like to paint her with that brush, he's taken almost as much in big-money contributions as she has...

[adapa]

31. We can never know 'for sure' with *any* of them-they are *all* politicans

I guess I believed in too many things & been proven wrong too many times to ever completely trust any of them. All I can do is look at the record & see what their priority's are.
On a personal level- the children's health program Hillary spoke of is a *huge* help to me. That program only came about because she turned a failed attempt at universal health care into a win for children. Lemons to lemon aid-

[Phillycat]

32. Yes, and she has won bipartisan support for a lot of her efforts.

That speaks to the ability to work with congress and get shit done. And damned if there isn't a lot of shit to get done right now! I agree with you there...

[Tom Rinaldo]

58. Yes. We need to counter McCain with substance, and then

we defeat him on the issues. If the Democrat running against McCain is credible enough on substance and experience and credibility as a potential Commander in Chief, then we swamp McCain by having by far the better platform and proposals for change that Americans want. But if McCain dominates perceptions of who is really up for the job, then the issues will take a back seat and McCain has a chance to win.

[More Than A Feeling]

19. I also liked the rest of her debate, but her IWR mess was embarrassing

I'm going to have nightmares now of her making word salad about that vote for half an hour while McCain and the whole country laugh at her. Obama talked enough to show me his substance, even though I still think he's full of it on healthcare. Therefore, Obama won, with a timely assist from Blitzer.

[Phillycat]

27. It was a mess. She got close to saying "it was a mistake" and then

when Wolf asked her to say it straight out, she wouldn't. It's all semantics, and it's not going to go away...but I think the poster above who said it's going to come down to the economy is right, and I think she won in that arena...

[HughMoran]

20. One thing is for sure - the Democratic party scored a BIG win last night

Our candidates look SO much more intelligent and passionate than those bickering bozo's on the Republican side.

It made me glad to be a Democrat and brought the level of discussion up a notch - even here at DU!

[Phillycat]

24. Well, that's the truth and that's a fact.

They are head and shoulders above anything on the other side of the aisle for sure!

[Tom Rinaldo]

59. Absolutely, n/t

[AlinPA]

26. Agree, plus they made the media look like fools.

[HughMoran]

44. That was a HUGE bonus IMO

I was so glad that Wolf was slapped down after attempting to re-start the bickering that was NOT good for the Democrats.

[rodeodance]

76. Yes, I was proud of them.

[Clintonite]

22. I thought it was pretty even. Hillary had mor substance, but I thought this was Obama's best

Performance.

[Phillycat]

28. He's totally attractive, isn't he? Good looking, intelligent, inspiring.

If I was going by solely who I'd like to look at and listen to, I'd vote for him in a heartbeat. :)

[WinkyDink]

35. I think HRC won the actual debate, but Obama gained in levelling the voter perceptions.

[Phillycat]

38. How so?

I thought Obama was ahead in "surge" (whatever the heck that means) before the debate last night? Wouldn't he have had to, well, WIN, to maintain that?

[Seabiscuit]

36. It was a draw. The Democratic Party won because the bickering ended.

[Phillycat]

39. They were awfully darned polite, weren't they?

That was really nice to see, 'tho I suspect they loathe one another, heh.

[in_cog_ni_to]

41. Hillary, but Barack was GREAT too. I could go with a tie, if that was a choice.

Have to go with Hillary for her grasp of the issues and experience.

EITHER of our candidates will kick McCain's ass up one side and down the other. The repukes HATE him. Rush, Hannity and Coulter detest him. The RW wacko religious right, hates him even more. The Anti-immigrant nuts LOATHE him. The Pro-Bush Tax Cut greedy bastards can't stand him. Who the hell is left to support him? NO ONE!

[Phillycat]

42. I do hope you're right, but I'm not sure.

I would have thought the same thing in 2004. The economy was in the toilet, Iraq was a disaster, and Bush just smirked and smirked. But we ended up with him again. I'm afraid I don't have the same faith in the American people as you do.

[Adelante]

43. I thought she had it

She is a better debater, in general, and Obama hasn't shown significant debating skill in the past. Last night, I thought he held his own throughout and showed he can talk policy as well as promise. Hillary had her better personality on, which always works in her favor. She is extremely good at policy debate, even if Obama was better than usual. For an hour or more, I saw her as ahead and the probable winner overall. Then came the Iraq War and she spent 20 minutes snagged, wriggling like a fish on a hook. As it came so late, she never recovered. When Obama said he not only wanted to end the war, but end the mindset that led to war -- he won the debate.

[Phillycat]

50. Yes, that was "word salad" as someone said above.

She couldn't get out of it, because there's really no good answer for it. However, I do think the economy will be more of an issue than the war in the general election, and she was certainly better in that arena. As you say, she is a brilliant policy debater.

[Tom Rinaldo]

72. My take on the debate

Obama was pretty darn good last night in a debate setting; he definitely kicked it up a notch or two without putting a dent in his civility. He came off as both knowledgeable and gracious. Hillary had her best game going until she got pinned down over her IWR vote, and that caused her real problems. But she was masterful on health care and both tough and caring regarding immigration - I think by the end of that section of the debate she had threaded a difficult needle extremely well. Both Obama and Clinton were great at taking it to the Republicans but I give the edge (a slight one) to Clinton for crowd pleasing lines.

And Hillary Clinton showed how she can, with enough stage time to showcase her personality and grasp of the issues, defuse the distorted negative stereotype of her that the Right Wing pinned on her through their relentless attacks on her. That bodes well for her as a potential Presidential candidate and I think it helped reassure some viewers who might have been apprehensive over backing her for that reason.

I re watched the IWR part again late last night, and Hillary remained coherent. She did explain her position at the time, and why technically she believes a competent and/or honest President would have used the IWR effectively as a diplomatic tool. But the President was Bush, and the position she took is never ever going to be popular. No vote in favor of the IWR will ever be viewed as anything better than dismal given what we all know now. Hillary tried to separate the IWR policy from the IWR personalities and that will never win votes with Democrats. So yes, she lost that part of the debate soundly.

Meanwhile Obama was at his very best in that part of the debate and his very best is very good indeed. He projected knowledge, stature, wisdom, and resolve, and again he did it without seemingly attacking Hillary in a harsh way. I believe that it helped Obama that this section was toward the end of the debate.

But the rest of the discussion about Iraq, the part that centered on dealing with the situation at hand as it lies, was much more even handed. I think both Hillary and Barack represented themselves very well in that regard, and in truth, that is the aspect of the entire Iraq situation that is still in play as we speak, and both of these Democrats easily showed how either one of them would be vastly superior to any Republican who might run against them.

So I am left feeling that while the IWR is THE hot button issue for many Democratic activists, in the larger public pool of Democratic and Independent voters, it is receding in importance. The Democrats have already been through one election cycle with both of our candidates having been men who supported the IWR. Fair or unfair, justly or unjustly, wisely or foolishly, the war in Iraq is starting to be overshadowed by economic fears as the leading issue on the minds of most voters right now. So while I give the clear edge to Obama for the entire Iraq discussion, I am not sure if that is enough to give him the edge on the entire debate. In my own honest opinion, it wasn't.

Still both Clinton and Obama got most of what they needed from this debate. They each came across as likable and unifying figures TO DEMOCRATS and Democrats have been grieving the divisions building amungst us, and had one or the other come across as being to blame for furthering those divisions last night, that would have hurt them. Meanwhile Obama significantly shrank whatever edge Clinton has over him regarding perceptions of experience through his performance last night. He sat there next to her and both acted and were viewed as full peers. Obama held his own against an extremely gifted debater, and he seemed quite competent in this audition for the role of potential Commander in Chief. As for Hillary, she came across as a Democrat's Democrat on a wide range of issues, which helped mute a meme pushed against her that she is "Bush-Lite". She also highlighted her obvious intelligence and was frequently charming. And she managed to put focus on her being a female candidate in an open but still subtle and positive manner.

This was a very good debate for the Democratic Party in general.

[Phillycat]

74. Excellent commentary.

:thumbsup:

I have a few quibbles with your analysis - I'm not at all sure Obama held his own when it came to detailed policy debate - there were quite a few times I felt he was reaching for meaningless but "inspiring" phrases while he searched his mind for an answer to the question. And as for Hillary, I think there was some evidence of "smirkiness" there that enhances, rather than detracts from, the RW-spread negative stereotypes about her.

But overall, I agree, I think in general both candidates were excellent and made great showings. A good day for the Democratic Party. :)

[joshcryer]

46. The very fact that this vote is nearly split proves only one thing: Hillary won.

These polls have always been slanted against Hillary for over 2 months now. Every fucking poll. Every fucking one of them, Obama would get 2 out of 3 votes at the bare minimum. 3 out of 4 would be more the norm.

Hillary won, hands down.

[Phillycat]

55. Also keep in mind...

I only asked who won the debate. If I'd included choices like, "Hillary won, but I still won't vote for her" and "Barack won, but I still won't vote for him", it might have been a different response.

[joshcryer]

56. Exactly. But any polls like this always trended toward Obama.

The fact that Obama supporters undoubtedly are voting for Hillary as the winner, proves that she won the debate.

[Roxy66]

47. I thought Hillary did very well....but I love them both.

[Roxy66]

48. Wow...i love this poll. It's pretty much even. We have great candidates!!!

[goldcanyonaz]

51. Holy Smokes!! A poll where Clinton is tied with Obama. *faints*

[Roxy66]

53. No kidding....thats a new on this board. It's great for our FAMILY!

[vireo]

61. Just put Clinton in the lead

:evilgrin:

[rodeodance]

79. ~~ ALL FIRED-UP FOR THE LADY~YES SHE CAN YES WE CAN~~

[ShadesOfGrey]

57. Arghhh! I am so conflicted...

For me... Hillary won the first half and Obama won the second half.

[Phillycat]

60. She did flub over the IWR, no question, and Obama made hay of it too.

I thought it ended well, though, and her superiority on policy debate was clear throughout.

[ShadesOfGrey]

62. Agreed!

I went into watching the debate hoping that it would confirm my initial reaction to Edwards backing out - to move my support to Obama. Post debate, I'm leaning Hillary.

[Phillycat]

66. I think I am still going to vote Edwards in the primary...

I'm in PA and my vote won't matter anyhow, so I can vote my heart. But I'll vote for whomever the nominee is in the general, and I have to admit after last night I'm feeling better about that vote.

[jcla]

63. We won

We got to hear about their differences and similarities instead of the bickering.. but Obama won the debate! Let's get those repug thugs in the White House and Congress!

[KittyWampus]

64. Very short term-Clinton. Long term-Obama. He has to hold his own and he did.

All he needs is to remain competitive Tuesday and then he'll have time to campaign in later states.

He will win, he will have time to campaign in person.

[Phillycat]

68. Do you think his campaigning in person is the key to his victory?

I wonder how many people are truly inspired to vote for a candidate by somewhat-empty rhetoric. I just don't see a lot of substantive policy discussion in his campaigning, do you? I'm honestly asking, not being snarky.

[KittyWampus]

85. IMO, yes. In the debate last night, he discussed policy at length. So we know he can do it

and do it well. Do people buy a new brand of cookies cause the ad on tv lists the ingredients? :)

IMO, people on both sides of aisle want to heal. There is a real chance Obama will create Obama Democrats (as opposed to Reagan Democrats).

[FrenchieCat]

67. She talked too much and he clearly pointed out that he is the one

that can beat McCain. That's what he needed to do.

[Phillycat]

69. Yes, he did point it out...but I think Hillary may have SHOWN it more.

In other words, he said the words, "I'd be a better choice because..." a, b, c, but Hillary's superiority in policy debate may prove to be the better choice in beating McCain - because policy is where we win this election. I agree with whomever above stated that we will win on the issues - but if McCain can insinuate that his opponent doesn't have the experience needed, we'll never get to the issues.

[rodeodance]

80. YEAH YEAH --Obama makes up a lot of declarations.

[GalleryGod]

77. The BIG 3 Votes for me: Hillary

IWR Vote= YES.
Levin Amendment Vote= No.
Immigration Wall/Fence Vote= Yes.

WRONG IN REAL TIME !



"We're going 15 rounds,Senator! ALL 15 rounds!"

[Phillycat]

78. Sure, but how do you think she did in the debate?

:shrug:

[flaminbats]

83. Obama won the debate..

but they both looked great together!

I attended a speech made by Hillary on Wednesday, but I didn't remember a single word she said! I think Hillary looks like a stronger candidate next to Obama, but by herself she is so uninspiring..boring, and just another page of meaningless words.

Obama has a message, a dream, and unlimited passion. Hillary has bad speeches, puts us to sleep, and even sucks our passion out of the room. but next to Obama she sounds great, looks charming, and sounds intelligent. it took me a long time to decide, and I'm voting for Obama on Tuesday. yet I still think an Obama/Clinton ticket could be invincible!

[goodgd_yall]

84. Other---it was a tie

I really think they both did superbly. I would only add that Clinton seemed to be more detailed in her responses.