A reminder to Clinton supporters about an issue they wish would just go away

[ErnestoG]

While you Hillary supporters are busy pumping your fists in the air over her winning delegate-less Florida, and a somewhat lukewarm performance in a recent debate, let's take a look at an issue that you are trying desperately to erase or marginalize: The ongoing slaughter in Iraq, that your candidate not only voted to enable, but refuses to apologize for.

So let's take a peek down the abyss, shall we? -




And the trend rises again -





January 20, 2008 Sunday:

42 Iraqis Killed, 33 Wounded

At least 42 Iraqis were killed and 33 more were wounded in the latest attacks, mostly bombings. No Coalition deaths were reported, but two Czech soldiers were wounded during a rocket attack in Basra.

An average of 3 Americans a day are now being killed in Iraq.



Twin Baghdad Bombings Kill At Least 91


BAGHDAD, Feb. 1, 2008

More than 50 people died after a pair of suicide attacks by female bombers. The violence occurred as Baghdad residents said they felt the safest since the Iraq war began. Mark Strassmann reports.


Now, please continue to scream in your loudest voice how this is a non issue, for which the voters "couldn't care less". And I hope and pray none of you ever get caught saying that to the face of a citizen who lost a loved one there, for your bridgework's sake.

[jlake]

1. OBAMA DIDN'T VOTE AGAINST THE IWR.

[ErnestoG]

2. Was he in Congress then in order to do it? NO.

So try that crap in Free republic where it belongs.

[jlake]

3. No, But I am getting tired of people saying he didn't vote for it..... and not accepting

the obvious answer why. He was NOT against it from the beginning. He gave 1 speech and that's it.

[ErnestoG]

7. Then please cut out the disingenuous tripe.

[jlake]

13. disingenuous tripe is claiming Obama has been against the war from the beginning,

while placing all of the blame on Hillary.

[ErnestoG]

24. Hillary enabled Bush's war. Obama didn't. Facts are facts.

[ingac70]

28. The blame is being put squarely where it belongs...

Obama, October 30, 2002 in Chicago:
http://www.lessig.org/blog/2008/01/barack_obamas_2002_s...

"But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors, that the Iraqi economy is in shambles, that the Iraqi military a fraction of its former strength, and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history.

I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a US occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences.

I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the middle east, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of Al Queda.

I am not opposed to all wars. I’m opposed to dumb wars....You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s finish the fight with Bin Laden and Al Queda, thru effective, coordinated intelligence, and a shutting down of the financial networks that support terrorism, and a homeland security program that involves more than color-coded warnings....You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s fight to wean ourselves off Middle East oil, through an energy policy that doesn't simply serve the interests of Exxon and Mobil.

Those are the battles that we need to fight. Those are the battles that we willingly join. The battles against ignorance and intolerance. Corruption and greed. Poverty and despair."

[jlake]

30. Yes, but that is not the ONLY position Obama took - you are cherrypicking.

[ErnestoG]

33. Cherrypicking? Like refusing to hold your candidate's feet to the fire?

[jlake]

38. I am not refusing to hold Hillary accountable -- I just see through Obama's schtick

and know that he would have voted the same way - or worse weenied out of a vote at all for political expediency.

[ErnestoG]

42. Sure you are. And not doing a particularly good job of it.

[jlake]

47. Oh dear.

[rodeodance]

48. IP is one of this BLIND-FAITH FOLLOWERS---impossible to use reason with them

[jlake]

53. It's really sad. But I guess true...

[ErnestoG]

54. Sure looks like facts put the Hillary supporter into a quick sprint in the other direction...

How's that going to work for you in the GE?

[rodeodance]

85. boo--fact is--I tire of your silly conjurations. bye

[ErnestoG]

88. Good luck helping Hillary hide her war vote from McCain's strategists.

[rodeodance]

93. I trust that she will do just fine.

[rodeodance]

41. GET THIS: bush is respon for this war-GOT IT!!????

[ErnestoG]

43. And he had help - like Hillary's vote. GOT THAT?

Good...now see if you can get your candidate to mouth the words....

[rodeodance]

51. Blind-faith is dangerous.

[ErnestoG]

52. That's what I've been telling Hillary supporters.

[ingac70]

57. You are the one with blind faith..

If you think Hillary wouldn't put us in a similar position as President. It is no accident that all of the Dems voting for the IWR were DLC "New Democrats"- and that includes Edwards and Kerry.

[truedelphi]

63. Thanks for your continuing to enlighten some

People.
Just how hard would it be for her to say "Sorry" ??

[ErnestoG]

65. She is very Bushian in that way. Can't cop to their own culpas.

[HughBeaumont]

98. Or Rovian, which is even worse.

That's where Bewsh learnt it from. Admitting erra about terra makes ya look WEAK! :sarcasm:

[Irishonly]

102. Plus a whole lot of other senators

Congress should not have voted for it. It's ridiculous to pin it all on Hillary. Both until recently have given Bush all the funding he has wanted. I don't even like her but this is insane. The democratic congress hasn't done anything to stop Bush now and kowtow every time.

[ingac70]

49. As are all who voted to let him go to war..

quit kidding yourself.

[truedelphi]

75. Well that is why for me the issue is not "Would I vote for a woman

To be President of the USA"

For me it is about Which Woman. And how the particular woman performs.

Barbara Boxer also of the Senate, did not vote for the IWR.

Neither did Maxine Waters, Cynthia McKinney, Barbara Lee, or Lynn Woolsey. They were in The House at the time. Some of them received death threats for their troubles.

I would vote for any of them should they ever decide to run for the Presidency.

[ErnestoG]

77. Exactly. It wasnt like Hillary would have been out on a rock by herself on that

She chose the cowardly, expedient way.

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

5. Since he wasn't in the senate at the time, that's pretty much a foregone conclusion, isn't it?

But he spoke out against it, and would have voted against it if he had been in the senate.

All Clinton has to do is say her vote was a mistake, but she won't even do that.

[ErnestoG]

8. These people need a new dodge.....

[jlake]

11. Yeah, one would think. But unfortunately there are many who have been lead to believe

that he voted against it by the constant propaganda of "Obama didn't vote for the IWR"

[ErnestoG]

Who?

[jlake]

25. Obamabots have lead many people to believe that is the case.

There is even the occasional seasoned DUer who doesn't know the fact that he wasn't in the senate at the time.

[ErnestoG]

32. WHO? Name them and give examples.

[jlake]

44. This thread. Post 3 doesn't seem to know he wasn't in the senate.

If you look through the archives there are MANY
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4339807&mesg_id=4339984

[ErnestoG]

50. Doesn't "seem" to know?

You're going to have to do better than that.

[jlake]

Okay - they flat out say it.

[ErnestoG]

59. Example?

[jlake]

64. The same link I gave you:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4339807&mesg_id=4339984

Post #3

[ErnestoG]

66. You said that one "seemed" to say so. Thats not the same as "said it"

[jlake]

71. If you read the post they say it *Flat Out*

I was trying to be modest with how easy it is to find an example of my claim... Take off your blinders for a moment.

[ErnestoG]

74. "They"? It was one poster wasnt it?

[jlake]

78. Um Yeah, it was the example you asked for.... an obamabot who thinks Obama

voted against the IWR defending him *TONIGHT*

[ErnestoG]

81. No, you said THEY. Plural. You showed me one. Are you trying to make a case using one person?

Oy.

[jlake]

86. Please look through the archives.

There have been DOZENS of examples of it and several of THE MOST ardent Obamabots were misinformed until not too long ago.
You know that Obama purposely spreads that misinfo.... don't deny it.

[ErnestoG]

87. Obama lies? Oh I'm sure you have as much proof for that as you do the other...

LOL

[jlake]

89. I already proved my point and you tried to raise the bar.

Bye.

[ErnestoG]

91. What point? You're all over the map!

[DJ13]

4. Q: What does the GOP & Hillary have in common?

A: They both wish Iraq would stop making headlines.

[ErnestoG]

6. Bingo!

[joshcryer]

9. I seem to remember winning that discussion, actually.

[ErnestoG]

15. In your mind, I'm sure that was the case.

But here on planet reality....

[joshcryer]

29. On planet reality you didn't respond to my facts?

No, you didn't.

[ErnestoG]

35. When you produce any facts, we'll address that

[joshcryer]

40. You read my reply to you in the other thread.

I know this because I bumped it while you were actively participating in that thread, so you had to have read my factual reply.

Delude yourself all you want.

[ErnestoG]

45. I read a string of nonsense with your name on it, if thats what you meant

[joshcryer]

55. Oh lordy, you clearly don't even want to have a discussion here.

You're just rambling. I'm trying to connect to you and make sure you understand that Bush had authority to attack Iraq without the IWR. Just like Clinton did in 1998.

[ErnestoG]

62. No, he didnt. Thats why they had the IWR. And you still dont get it wasnt a declared war.

Did you do that Constitutional reading assignment I gave you?

[AGirl]

10. They would have died anyways with or without Hillary.

[ErnestoG]

12. Hillary did her part to enable it...and now runs from it.

[AGirl]

14. the point is, she didn't cause those deaths..

[ErnestoG]

20. She enabled them. Obama didnt. Those are facts.

[rodeodance]

68. No, it is you who are questioning her very reasoned decision--demeaning.

[ErnestoG]

70. Very reasoned decision? She didnt even bother to read the NIE!

[jlake]

17. Obama used the excuse "my vote wouldn't have mattered" when he skipped

the Kyle-Lieberman vote.

[ErnestoG]

21. He didn't vote for it. therefore you have no case.

[jlake]

22. He sure as fuck didn't vote against it.

He refuses to take a stance.... and you eat it up.

[ErnestoG]

37. He wasnt in Congress then. How many times are you gonna try that canard?

[1corona4u]

100. It's not a canard, it's a fact.

I know facts are like garlic to vampires to the Obama crew, but get real.

[rodeodance]

72. he is full of excuses--that iis his MO--but blind faith gets in the way doesn't it.

[ErnestoG]

76. Yes, you read the Hillary supporter very well.

[rodeodance]

61. She is not running. It was Obama who was SCARED of the lady in Red the other evening

[ErnestoG]

69. She goes into a mumbling fit whenever it comes up. The GOIP is gonna cream her with that

[Meshuga]

18. Her vote counted. n/t

[Little Star]

16. Only one way to stop it, stop the funding. How does your guy

vote on that?

[ErnestoG]

19. Only idiots want to leave the soldiers without food.

Thats why Obama wants a timed withdrawal. It's called sophisticated thinking and planning. Has Hillary heard of it, or was she too anxious to give Bushhole his blank check on the war?

[joshcryer]

58. Soldiers have plenty of food, it's just not in Iraq. Their food is back home, where they would go...

...so that they could eat. At home. You know.

[ErnestoG]

73. You mean because of people like Hillary putting them in Iraq? oh good argument LOL

Please tell me you were never on a debate team.

[rodeodance]

83. What an idiot thing to say. NO withdrawal plans leaves soldiers without food. But you knew

that before you spouted off nonsense now didn't you!

[ErnestoG]

84. you're confusing withdrawal plans and a vote to put them there in the first place

but I suspect you know that.

[MercutioATC]

60. How does HRC?

[Sybbis]

23. No. Just no.

It's Bush's war - I refuse to blame anyone else for it. Clinton's vote on the resolution was wrong but that doesn't transfer the responsibility from him to her. End of story.

[ErnestoG]

26. She has to own her part in it. And she won't. Is that presidential, to you?

Because it sure isn't to me.

[Sybbis]

Of course it's presidential...

These people are politicians. Unless you're brand new to politics, this is not suprising. Hell, it's not even noteworthy.

Clinton, and others who voted for the Resolution, will NEVER take the blame for this away from George W. Bush and his lunatic cadre of Iraq war-freaks. At least they won't in my house. I can't bring myself to do that kind of favor for GWB, he doesn't deserve it. You can suit yourself.

[ErnestoG]

92. Are you familiar with the terms "aiding and abetting", or "accessory to a crime"?

If you really want to give all of those who helped Bushhole carry out this horrible crime a pass, I seriously hope you don't vote.

[Yossariant]

27. "Barack was against the war before he had to take a stand." Odd camopaign slogan

Whatever works for you.

:shrug:

[ErnestoG]

31. That really makes zero sense. How can you vote on a bill if you arent yet in Congress?

Please explain that one to me, it's Hillary-logic and it really is hard to understand.

[Yossariant]

34. That's what I said.

:rofl:

[rodeodance]

36. ANOTHR SHE DID NOT SAY SORRY THREAD!! GET USED TO IT!!

[ErnestoG]

39. do you want someone so irresponsible with a war vote to be president?

I sure dont

[rodeodance]

79. I do not see her in that way. so i am quite satisfied thank you.

[ErnestoG]

82. You can see her riding a yak, but that doesnt make it so. Talk about blind faith!

[AtomicKitten]

46. No worries. It will not be forgotten.

The IWR was the worst, most devastating course of action America has plotted in decades. And Hillary launched the sad adventure with her YES vote giving Junior the blank check that he promptly cashed.

I WILL NOT FORGET NOR WILL I FORGIVE THAT VOTE!!

[ErnestoG]

56. Thank you.

And anyone thinking the Iraq War will not be fashioned into a 30 lb truncheon with which to pound Hillary in the GE, just isn't on the same planet as the rest of us.

[nonconformist]

67. How is this relevant now?

Seriously?

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2008/01/clinton_vs_obama_on_iraq.html
<snip>
# Obama has been consistent in his opposition to the Iraq war. His Oct. 2, 2002, speech opposing the war stands in clear contrast to Clinton's vote later that same month to authorize military action.


# Once the U.S. went into Iraq, Obama's position became much more nuanced. While he still opposed the war, he was not in favor of an early pullout. In 2004, he even talked about sending more U.S. troops to Iraq in order to stabilize the country as a prelude to an eventual withdrawal.


# His Senate voting record on Iraq is quite similar to that of Hillary Clinton. Both senators waited until May 2007 before they finally voted to cut off funds for the war, on the grounds that the administration had not agreed to a firm timetable for withdrawal. They both voted against a June 2006 amendment proposed by John Kerry (D-Mass.) for the redeployment of U.S. troops.
<snip>


I'm a whole lot more concerned at this point on what the candidates propose to do NOW, rather then focusing on a vote that can't be changed from years ago. And while I, as many on DU, were against the war from the moment it was first mentioned, digging my heels in and screaming "I told you so!" doesn't solve a damn thing now. You can make an argument about judgment... and that's a valid argument... but when compared to Obama's thin resume, it doesn't hold a lot of clout with me. So on this issue, I prefer to instead think in terms of who would be the best to face McCain... Mr. "100 years in Iraq" will get demolished on this issue by either of them, so it's moot.

[ErnestoG]

80. It's relevent because she won't own her mistake. She is in massive denial

and if you think that makes me feel good about putting this nation's military in her hands, you better think again.

[goodgd_yall]

94. She's going to withdraw troops once she gets in

That really is what matters. Her responsibility for the war pales to the responsibility of Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld.

[ErnestoG]

90. Update -

So after 91 responses, it is clearer to me than EVER that the Hillary supporters have not a leg to stand on in regards to this issue.

They weakly try to use the "tu quoque" ("you too") defense by pointing a finger at Obama while mum on the fact that he was not in Congress at the time the vote was taken.

They ineptly try the tack of claiming Hillary had no responsibility in this nation wrongly going to war against a small innocent nation; regardless of the fact that she voted to enable it.

And they do not even address that she refuses to own her mistake. All this while throwing out accusations of blind faith and cult behavior at Obama supporters. It just gives a whole new definition to "pots and kettles" and moreso shows that they won't do their candidate one ounce of good when the GOP turns the IWR issue into a bristling club in the GB, and beats Hillary Clinton senseless with it.

Thank you, Hillarbees, for proving my point with this thread!

[Harkpark]

95. A million dead Iraqies

Nah support for Hilary more important than soul :rofl:

[Perry Logan]

96. Obamites like to look to the future--except when there's a chance to get a shot at Hillary.

As for the vote--she was lied to.

[Harkpark]

104. Haha

So what she going to do with the liars.
Damn big Kabuki circus in USA

Wah bush lie but still there
Impeachment off the table

Plame say truth
got cover blown
Kinnich want to impeach
Got lots of dems going after his seats

Wah light shine so bright

[ecdab]

105. She was lied to

like the entire population of this country. However, there were many who saw the truth behind the lies and correctly predicted where the IWR would take this county. Hillary, unfortunately, was not one of those people. That doesn't make Hillary a pariah, but it did make me very upset with her (and quite a few other Democrats) at the time and left me (and many others that see that vote as the most important one cast in recent memory) more than questioning her (and many other Democrats) judgment.

For those of us that felt hope escaping from this country like air out of balloon that had been popped after the results of the IWR came out, it is difficult to jump for joy at the prospect of our parties nomination being one of the people that helped this catastrophe to unfold. Granted, Hillary was one of many that choose to ignore the truth behind the lies that so many others saw. The whys and wherefores of the choice she made that October day in 2002 have not been explained, because there is no explanation she can possibly benefit from.

[HughBeaumont]

97. Here's another issue they remain deathly silent on . . .

You know, except for the "Democrats" that actually SUPPORT free trade and job offshoring.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/GC01Df03.html
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/538674.cms
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/593175.cms

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhLBSLLIhUs
Hillary pushes for more h1-b visas and outsourcing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLNOSGM2jK4
Hillary Clinton's hypocrisy (part 1)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgdrh2Bc95M
Hillary Clinton's hypocrisy (part 2)

I guarantee if I were in a field that could be shipped or in-shored (which are most modern jobs strewn across many fields), I'd damn well BETTER care about this issue.

Your great post and what I listed above are two incredibly bad positions too many for me to ever take her seriously as a candidate for our side. Especially the backbreaker of business with offshoring conglomerates such as Tata.

[1corona4u]

99. This is really over the line....

there were 76 others who voted for the IWR as well. Perhaps you should be fair and split the blame equally between them. But then again, we all know that playing fair is not the mindset of the Obama supporter.



Perhaps Obama could explain to all of those sick kids, who failed to get the SCHIP coverage, some possibly died, why he missed that vote entirely...to be fair and all...

[demo dutch]

101. Sorry I'M SICK OF MEN RUNNING THIS COUNTY! I can't vote for Obama

[Lil Missy]

103. She didn't start the war. Bush did. n/t

[bigtree]

106. The occupation that the other candidate supported with his votes in the Senate

what's the point?

Besides, I'm certain Bush will enjoy your deflection from his own responsibility. NEITHER of these candidates would have taken us to war on Iraq on their own initiative.