Reading GD:P, I have come to the conclusion that a ton of the Obama vote

[Ravy]

is actually Anti-Hillary.

If he wins, I wonder how he plans to convert this anger to an Anti-McCain vote so he can win in November. He is sure burning a lot of bridges with older Democrats, such as me.

[DURHAM D]

1. Amen. n/t

[papau]

50. likewise Amen n/t

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hoof Hearted]

127. For all we know you are the definitive inside authority on Freeper threads.

It's fuckin' rude and childish to screech "Freeper" just because someone posts something you don't agree with.

[never_get_over_it]

158. Hmmm whose post is a freeper post

you've been here less than 6 months - the guy who has posted has been here 5 years - why don't you keep your snarky comments to yourself....

[The_Casual_Observer]

2. It's progressives & under 30's that have never voted before.

If they get Obama, it remains to be seen if their attention span lasts into next November

[jasmine621]

16. And you think "progressives" don't hate Hillary? nt

[UALRBSofL]

20. Maybe they do but the centrists

which make up about the same percentage as the progressives love Hillary and I think that's where the above poster was referencing.

[The_Casual_Observer]

24. I KNOW they hate her. They'll hate Obama too.

[newmajority]

27. I'm a progressive, and I'm over 30

But I've never seen a general election ballot without a Bush or Clinton on it. And that in and of itself is nearly 30 years old (We're in year 28 of this mess right now) and that NEEDS to end.

[The_Casual_Observer]

30. Obama sure is making a lot of promises of better days & change.

Nothing indicates that the gop is buying in to this.

[DURHAM D]

36. Check your math.

Are you the same person who sent in an email to the debate that could not math? Sadly, the person reading the question could not either.

[John Q. Citizen]

51. Let's see, 1980, bush was on the ballot, and it's 2008. Yep almost 30 years. You check your math.

[DURHAM D]

83. I don't count VP - I gather you do?

[John Q. Citizen]

120. The poster you accused of poor math said a bush or a Clinton was on the ballot for near 30 years.

The poster's math isn't an issue here. Your definition of "on the ballot" is the issue.

I don't see it as a very big deal one way or the other. However the poster is technically correct. Maybe the poster prefers Hillary not be Obama's running mate. I don't know.


-Edited for spelling

[madrchsod]

67. that`s half my life!

shit no wonder things are fucked up!the last good job i had was in the 70`s! after that it was all down hill...

[BlackVelvet04]

96. Only if there is truly something better....

Bill Clinton did an amazing job in turning this country around. Yes, change can be good but not always better.

I'm not a big fan of dynasties, but I dare say if John Kennedy were still alive and ran there wouldn't be all this talk about dynasties.

[DURHAM D]

34. What's a progressive? n/t

[Radical Activist]

159. Right. Because anyone under 30 has a short attention span and

won't get involved in a campaign. You have a lot to learn.

[MadBadger]

Well over the past couple days, starting with the debate, he is really going after him.

Calling him out for once being a maverick, and now falling in line. Also, for his 100 years comment and others.

[OzarkDem]

3. About 90% of it

He'll be easier on McCain, no doubt. He's a GOP'er and Obamam LOVES the GOP.

[ingac70]

4. Just stay home...

or vote for McCain.

[Ravy]

7. Naw. I will vote for him.

Not to the point yet where I think I will have to hold my nose to do it, but headed in that direction.

[John Q. Citizen]

37. Why are you upset with Obama? You haven't said.

[Ravy]

57. I did say in a few posts...

basically, I think he has been shitting on the Democratic establishment a lot, like with "republicans were the party of ideas for the last 15 years", etc. "Excesses of the 60s", and also letting the "racist" tag be applied to the Clintons.

I have spent a lot of time, money, and effort over those years trying to accomplish, and sometimes succeeding, that he so simply dismisses.

Don't get me wrong, I would like to really believe. I just don't yet.

I am not wild about Clinton either, but I know in my heart that she will do a good job and is still a safer bet for November. But this is barely Feb. Lots can change.

I just don't get to to see much pro-Obama to really sit up and say "Yeah, now I get it".

[Spiffarino]

125. You da man

And I'm also impressed that you are maintaining your Edwards '08 avatar. I might just change mine to that one for a while.

[SammyWinstonJack]

149. You're better than me. I WON'T vote for him. Period . I don't like him for a lot of reasons and

don't trust him either.

[sandnsea]

5. It's not Obama's fault Hillary is a lousy politician

He didn't make her campaign cheat in every election held so far. He didn't make her vote for a war, refuse to call out Bush's WMD lies, and refuse to acknowledge she was wrong. He didn't make them associate with all sorts of corrupt people from all over the world.

The animosity against Hillary was earned by Hillary and would be there no matter who her opponent is. Age doesn't have anything to do with it.

[1corona4u]

101. Do you have proof that she cheated in "every election held do far", or are you just shooting

your mouth off again? Well, do ya??

[sandnsea]

131. Yeah, it's been in all the papers

She tried to intimidate students from voting in Iowa when everybody knows it's legal.

She tried to keep poll watchers out of precincts in NH when they knew it was legal.

The law suit and hand outs in Nevada, telling caucus workers that it's only illegal if someboy challenges you.

Trying to pretend MI & FL are real elections, going against her own pledge to the DNC.

And while race baiting in SC isn't illegal, it sure is unethical and disgusting.

There is plenty of reason to have no use for the Clintons if one is honest with themselves.

[1corona4u]

133. Uh huh...

and has she been charged with anything? Election fraud? Anything?

Obama was the race baiter.

[sandnsea]

134. Is that your measure of honesty and integrity

Anything anybody does is okay as long as there are no legal charges??

[1corona4u]

135. Seems to be the standard response from the Obama supporters

on the Obama/Rezko deal, isn't it? Obama hasn't been charged, so it's OK.

Hypocrisy at it's finest.

[sandnsea]

136. He admitted he made a terrible mistake

He returned the money.

:shrug:

How does that compare to all the cheating she did in our elections? What about the people who donated to her who are actually sitting in prison right now? How come you guys latch on to one small potato nothing incident, and ignore Clinton shit so deep you can't see daylight standing in the middle of it.

[1corona4u]

138. He has lied several times about it....

I just caught another lie, tonight, in another thread, straight from Obama's own mouth.

You can't prove she did anything wrong. Nothing. Until she is formally charged, you have nothing, just like we have to wait for Obama to be charged with any wrong doing regarding Rezko.

[sandnsea]

139. No, his words are being distorted

He returned money, more scandals unfolded and he returned more money. Now the media is wanting him to return every dollar that anybody who ever knew Rezko had donated, which is ridiculous. They're concocting scandals where none exist. He returned the money and admitted his mistake in the land deal.

Hillary hasn't admitted any of her mistakes in lying and cheating on elections, all the people who have donated to her illegally, or all the people they've been associated with in business who have been convicted of crimes. There is a whole new array of scandals that the right wing is chomping at the bit to get into.

[donheld]

6. It looks like a lot of the Clinton/Edwards support was anti-McClurkin

People :shrug:

[scheming daemons]

8. You underestimate the depth of anti-Hillary sentiment in this country....

...it is why she will lose in November, and why ... if we want a Democratic president, the choice must be Obama ....

Realclearpolitics.com's latest polls bear this out.

Obama beats McCain in their latest poll, Hillary loses narrowly to McCain.

[Omega3]

18. and Kerry was 20% up on bush in 04'

[Ravy]

22. I think you are buying a right-wing talking point.

Hillary has shown that she can win big in hugely republican areas in NY. Most people are anti-Hillary because Rush told them to be that way. I have never seen anyone make a convincing argument WHY they hold such animosity towards her.

[scheming daemons]

39. NY??? We're already going to win NY... no matter who our candidate is...

....what red state can she win?

My father-in-law is the most died-in-the-wool right-wing nutjob you could imagine.... and it almost gave me a cardiac arrest the other day when he said he would vote for Obama over McCain... he hates McCain to the depths of his being.

But he also said he would sit home if it was Hillary vs. McCain. That's a net wash.... If it's Obama, we pick up one. ;-)

[Ravy]

48. I think Hillary, if our nominee, will do really well,

if she isn't soiled with bullshit labels like "war-mongerer" and "racist"


Obama will do even better, or much, much worse, than Hillary, IMHO. Depends a lot on what the media does to him once the fever subsides.

[UALRBSofL]

55. I think you have a point there

It all depends on how the centrists democrats decide to vote. Much of Hillary's supporters are just that and you just never know.

[John Q. Citizen]

43. I live in Montana. We have a very large independent vote. Hill isn't liked,

whether it's for a convincing argument or for a stupid reasons. That's just a fact of life.

Obama could win here, it wouldn't be a cake walk by any means, but no way could Hill win here.

[robbedvoter]

9. Excellent insight! Good question.

[maximusveritas]

10. Trying to draw conclusions from GD:P is just...

well, I don't want to insult you. Let's just say it doesn't work.

[Ravy]

25. Oh! I know that *grin*

Thanks.

:toast:

[Renew Deal]

11. How is Obama burning bridges?

I don't get it.

[DURHAM D]

38. Are you serious? n/t

[Renew Deal]

53. Besides with the Clintons, the DLC, the lobbyists, insurance companies, etc.

Yes, I'm serious.

[Nailzberg]

We aren't a very accurate sample.

People here tend to be more fanatical.

[Ravy]

Boy, howdy! nt

[ClericJohnPreston]

12. Don't forget the marshmallow clouds

signifying empty platitudes and the magical fairy wishing and hoping tree, signifying false promises and empty rhetoric.

All this is full of sound and fury, but signifying, NOTHING!

[Ravy]

65. Damn! I hate when I forget the marshmallow clouds.

:toast:

[krabigirl]

13. Yep, me too.

[Colobo]

14. My vote is pro-Obama.

[Ravy]

40. Good for you!

Seriously, I don't see the attraction yet.

I have already voted, for Edwards, and early on Obama was my second choice, but has been steadily dropping with each comment about "the excesses of the 60s and 70's, and that the republicans were the party of ideas during the Clinton administration.

That, to me, is shitting all over a lot of my life I have devoted to the Democratic Party and causes.

On edit: I most definitely will be voting for our nominee. I have always in the past, and from what I can forsee, always will. It is just hard to be excited about him without the "fever".

[John Q. Citizen]

61. Do you have a link to the 'republicans were the party of ideas during the Clinton administration'

statemnet?

If you saw it on GP-D from another poster it might not be accurate.

I never saw or heard that Obama said that except right now from you, that so I'm wondering about it.

Thanks.

[Ravy]

94. Link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbaszmcpesc

You can find longer ones as well. This is the same interview where he said that Reagan was transformative, which I didn't take as offensive... however, of the dozens of "non-transformative" presidents, he named just two, Nixon and Clinton.

[ErnestoG]

15. Don't tag Obama with the vitriol of a few of his supporters.

HE is the one with the ideas, and the way to move out of this disastrous stream we are in now. Hillary, however, will happily have us wade in more of the same.

[Cha]

41. I don't see too much

vitrol as you say coming from Obama supporters.

[ErnestoG]

121. As an Obama supporter, neither do I. I'm just dispelling the fiction.

Obama inspires people. They get passionate about him. Some may get nasty with that passion. But that has nothing to do with Obama and his mission and character. He is what he is.

[Cha]

162. Precisely!

AND Obama has the nicest, smartest, cutest supporters! :P

[RedEarth]

17. Not me, I'm 60 and was an Edwards supporter, but now Obama has my vote

Obama is not as progessive as Edwards, but he has a lot of qualities I like.

[Ravy]

29. I am close to your age, and was an Edwards supporter too.

And I do love to hear a good speech. The problem is, once it is done, I am left wondering what he said.

I still don't get the rationale for the non-mandate of health care. I don't see how you can minimize costs and still expect emergency rooms to take care of car-wreck victims who have no health insurance.

I don't like his ducking of tough votes, and I don't like him salting the Hillary Clinton camps with talking about the lack of judgement on IWR and particularly saddling them with the "racist" tag, or allowing it to be bantered about.

But I really don't want a continuation of a republican adminstration.. it is just that his campaign style is making Democrats in general less of a "lock" on getting the WH.

[Buzz Clik]

19. Obama is burning bridges? Wow.

I was on a three-way fence with Edwards/Hillary/Obama until Hillary and Bill did their tag-team on Obama. I was so appalled that I converted instantly to Obama. I'm 54.

[paulk]

97. that seems a pretty good illustration of what the OP is talking

about.

It sounds like your voting against Hillary more than for Obama.

[Buzz Clik]

151. No. I'll be voting FOR Obama. He is not a compromise or default choice.

Billary simply accelerated my decision.

In my view, this is a great illustration of the OP's point of burning bridges.

[milkyway]

21. Wrong.

[Hill_YesWeWill]

23. I don't think this is entirely appropriate, you have to remember

that we're all voting for the same thing, a democrat in the White House.

Now, I'm a Hillary supporter, so I understand how you might come to the conclusion that some Obama supporters are anti-Hillary, there is a lot of anti-Hillary sentiment out there.

But, it's really not fair to our fellow democrats for us to make speculations about the reason why people might vote for Obama when we don't know! How can we know why a person votes for a certain candidate. There are so many factors that go into choosing a candidate, I just don't think it could be as simple as Obama gets the "anti-Hillary" vote.

I don't like to try to demean other people's political views just because I don't agree with them, I actually think that demeans us all.

[bigwillq]

26. Congrats on 100 posts!

:toast:

[parasim]

28. I wouldn't say "anti-Hillary" as much as "anti-status-quo" politics...

Nothing against Hillary, per se.

It'll be easy to convert that rage to McCain, another old-school, status-quo politician.

[ArkySue]

124. "old-school, status-quo politician"

Like Ted Kennedy and john Kerry?

[parasim]

142. Touche´. However...

... those guys aren't running for president.

[ShadowLiberal]

31. Somewhat yes, but most of those poeple would never support McCain

Somewhat I'll agree he's getting antiHillary votes, I think that's what more of the old Edward's supporters vote really is who are voting for him now.

At the same time though I disagree that he'd have to work hard to get these voters to cast an antiMcCain vote, chances are most of them won't be able to stand McCain from stuff like his super prowar stance.

[Ravy]

33. Hope you are right. nt

[milkyway]

32. So you think the staggering numbers of new young voters are really just coming out

to vote against Hillary?

I can't find a link right now, but I've seen in the last couple of days that the favorability rating among Dems of both Barack and Hilary is very high, up around 80% for both. This can only mean that the majority of Obama supporters also give Hillary a favorable rating (and likewise for Hillary supporters for Barack).

[bunnies]

35. Hillary and John McCain are best buds per Bill Clinton...

Not to much conversion there as such.

[Ravy]

44. I have some good republican friends, too. That doesn't bother me. nt

[madrchsod]

47. that was one of the dumbist things he said so far

what ever possessed him to say that? maybe he won`t open his mouth for awhile..

[JorgeTheGood]

42. The anti-hillary posters are easy to spot -- too easy ...

which leads me to believe they aren't that smart.

They're also cocky. LOL. god I hate the internet ...

face to face ... no IPaddys to hide behind ...

[in_cog_ni_to]

49. and YOUNG.

That's where the cocky comes from.;)

[Auntie Bush]

45. Add me to that list.

[JorgeTheGood]

52. I'm an older dem too ...

but I don't post a lot.

Been a member since '01

Sad indictment what's goin' on at the moment.

[in_cog_ni_to]

46. Yes. This older Democrat too.

After the Primaries...it should be very interesting around here.

[REDFISHBLUEFISH]

54. Obama's own words anger me,In the general my voters may not Support Hillary.

That is a threat and a divisive thing to say.

I am angry about it, It was one thing when his supporters said it, but to hear him say it kind of leads me to question his character.

[sellitman]

56. Link?

I never saw that quote before?

[in_cog_ni_to]

60. It was posted here earlier today. He said, "If he wins, Hillary's supporters would support him, but

if she wins, he's not so sure she could get his supporters to vote for her." (paraphrased, but close)

I didn't post on those threads, so I don't know where it is, but maybe someone will post it for you.

[sellitman]

66. Hearsay until I see a link.

I'm not saying you are lying either. I am undecided now that JE has dropped out. If he actually said this then I'd like to see the context.

[Ravy]

70. Link

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/02/01/629273.aspx


I am confident I will get her votes if I'm the nominee," Obama stressed. "It's not clear she would get the votes I got if she were the nominee."

[John Q. Citizen]

79. I agree with Obama. That's an honest analysis.

[Ravy]

85. Well, if it was *me*...

.. I would stop talking about it and take steps to ensure that these voters felt at home in the Democratic Party.

It is like he is comfortable setting up a dead-man's switch where if he is not the nominee, his supporters will become dissolusioned with the process, and that could hurt the Democratic Party for years to come. At least, he hasn't proposed a third-party run... yet.

[sellitman]

93. Hillary has said some stupid things in this Primary too but this takes the cake.

What the fuck is he thinking?

[John Q. Citizen]

116. I think that's a little unfair for you to take that position. It's one of Barack's strengths that

he attracts voters that Hillary wouldn't be able to get otherwise. He has every right to promote his positives.

And the third party comment is over the top.

That would be like saying in a critique of Clinton's campaign, 'At least she hasn't proposed attacking Iran...yet.'

I think I see what's happening here. You are a Hillary supporter and it bothers you that Obama is surging and may very well win the nomination. So you are doing your part to attempt to slow that momentum. Nothing wrong with that, but let's please keep it focused on what is real instead of fear mongering.

[Ravy]

119. I am not in the Hillary camp either... and least not consiously.

I am not that much afraid of what will happen if he wins the nomination. I am far more concerned about what will happen if he loses the nomination after doing so much damage to Clinton.

[John Q. Citizen]

140. I think a lot of Hill's damage has been self inflicted. And that's not particularly a

new phenomena for the Clintons.

Hillary was up by a huge margin just a few months ago. The primary was hers to lose so to speak.

I saw where a staunch Clinton supporter (Director of NY NOW) accused Edwards and Obama of engaging in 'the moral equivalency of gang rape' against Hillary. I think stuff like that has hurt Hillary, but it came from her supporters.

I think the many surrogates who attempted to imply that Barack's appeal was primarily limited to black voters hurt her. For one thing, after Iowa, it wasn't particularly believable, and after SC, even less so.

I think her early campaign strategy of creating an expectation of invincibility was a mistake; After she finished third in Iowa that strategy was finished.

And Barack's fund raising ability definitely took the Clinton campaign by surprise. Nobody expected that he was going to match them step for step and often out pace Hillary.

And look at Barack's endorsements. People like Ted Kennedy a long time very loyal supporter of the Clinton's apparently believes Barack is the best person for the job, and is the best person for the Party. I don't think Teddy has a grudge against Hillary, I don't think Teddy would back someone who was going to damage the party or our prospects in the fall. I think he believes Barack is the right person at the right time for the job. The endorsements have been like a cascade, lots from all sorts of different quarters, and not just by newcomers or outsiders, but by long time solid party members.

Something is happening here.

[Ravy]

153. I truly hope you are right.

Maybe I am experiencing pre-launch jitters *grin*. I hope the rocket lands on target.

[sellitman]

89. Thanks.

Pretty shitty thing to say if you ask me.

[Ravy]

63. That, too.

Just this constant tearing down he does flies in the face of his rhetoric when he talks about "new politics" and "unity".

It is kind of like instead of drawing these new faces in (and he needs to be applauded for that) and incorporating them into the party as a whole, he disses the way the Democratic Party has been.

[John Q. Citizen]

76. You are mad because he agrees with your OP? You just said that some of

Obama's supporters are "anti-Hillary."

Obama said that some of his supporters may not want to support Hillary in the GE.

You guys are saying the same thing about some of his supporters, but when you say it, it's good for the party but when he says it it's bad for the party?

How does that work?

[Ravy]

104. I never said it was good for the party,

nor did I say I was terribly angry about his comment, but it does make me uneasy.

I would prefer to see all of our candidates try to focus their supporters on the utmost importance of electing a Democrat in November.

[John Q. Citizen]

111. I haven't seen Hill say, "If I don't win the nomination, make sure to vote for Obama;

I know I have tried to imply that he's inexperienced but that's just to try to get the nomination. He would do just fine, even though i think I can do better." And that doesn't make me uneasy.

Obama is pressing his advantage; He is perceived as being much more attractive to independents than Hill is. That's what the pundits were saying in NH, for instance, that he and McCain would be competing for some of the same voters.

There will be plenty of time after the nomination is settled to unify. And I'm positive both candidates will urge their supports to support the nominee. I do know though that a significant number of Obama support is anti-Hillary, 9maybe 4 or 5 percent) just as you pointed out. Some will be independents, some will be lefty anti-war voters. Some may be blacks still pissed off at the perception that Bill and other surrogates were trying to race bait.

So I think Obama was honest in his comments. And I also think he will be instrumental to turning on a whole lot of young voters, independents, and disaffected black voters to Democratic party politics

[Ravy]

122. From your lips to God's ear. nt

[stillcool]

58. How does Anti-Hillary...

equate to Anti-McCain? Those who are pro-Hillary will be pro-McCain? Actually, that kind of makes sense.

[Zueda]

59. Just how is HE burning a lot of bridges?

How is his supporters having a high level of distaste for Clinton his fault? From hearing John Edwards rhetoric I would think a larger percent of his supporters are anti-Clinton.

[Ravy]

64. He has dissed the Democratic Party a lot, IMHO. nt

[madrchsod]

68. he did ?

[Ravy]

73. Yes. nt

[Political Heretic]

112. When? How?

[Ravy]

117. I have said this in several posts, but I will recap to some extent.

Such as the republican party was the party of ideas for the last 10-15 years, insinuating that the Democrats who voted for the IWR were not duped, talking about "old politics", excesses of the 60s and 70s... that kind of stuff.

I don't sense that he is strongly rooted in the party, and perhaps I have just a tinge of fear he will take his "movement" in a different direction of his choosing.

[1corona4u]

103. He dissed the baby boomers for one...

I could go on, but I won't waste my time when it will all be ignored, as usual.

[madrchsod]

62. i`m not voting for hillary because i do not believe she will

fundamentally change the course of this country. but when it comes to the general election either her or barrack will be a better choice than who ever the party of living dead has to offer. if any democrat can not see it`s in their own self interest and the interest of their country to vote for who ever wins the primary then they should join the other side.

i`m not voting for barrack in the primary ---i`m voting for dennis

[still_one]

69. I voted for Obama, NOT because I hate Hillary, I voted for him because

of their difference in the way they propose to negotiate with their enemies. Clinton believes if you negotiate with your adversaries you threaten them, Obama believes you should negotiate on a one-to-one basis

This is the reason why she voted for the IWR and the Kyle/Lieberman amendment, because both those legislative pieces threaten the opposing parties, not try to engage in a dialog. You do what we say or else

Obama has indicated a different approach

That is not because I am anti-Hillary, that is because I don't agree with her point on positions like this

[Ravy]

72. They call that "carrots and sticks"

It has been a pretty well established diplomatic methodology that served us pretty well until we got a president who choked himself on a pretzel.

[still_one]

86. So you must be against the way we dealt with Red China and the Soviet Union

It worked so well for so many years to threaten them with missles, and death didn't it

How many people would not have died if we didn't invade Viet Nam?

How many people would not have died if we didn't invade Iraq?

It sure worked for North Korea didn't it? NOT. It wasn't until bush went back to where Clinton had left off with the Sunshine policy that progress started to be made

Less people are killed when you engage with dialog than threats. That is pretty much what Hamilton/Baker said about the middle east, AND IT INCLUDED IRAN

[Ravy]

90. Dialog is the carrot. threats are the sticks.

Bush is all sticks.

[still_one]

141. Not smart to play chicken with missiles, someone will get hurt /nt

[1corona4u]

105. Yeah, and Obama's was clueless enough to say

he would meet with them without precondition. Dumb fucking thing to say, or even consider.

[calteacherguy]

71. DU is nothing at all like the real world, don't draw conclusions from what you see here. nt

[Ravy]

75. I know that. It would just be nice to see more pro-Obama, from his supporters AND

the candidate.

[JorgeTheGood]

81. Obama is already on record ...

parapharsing ... he says that his voters will not vote for Hillary.

[stillcool]

88. do you mean this?

Obama: I think there is no doubt that she has higher negatives than any of the remaining democratic candidates. That's just a fact and there are some who will not vote for her. If you look at the results in Nevada, for example, she eked out the popular vote victory over me, but I ended up winning more delegates because she got almost all of her votes from Clark County, Las Vegas and some of the traditional democratic areas. We got votes there, but we also got votes in northern Nevada and rural conservative regions of the state that traditionally don't vote Democratic, but were excited about my campaign.

I have no doubt that once the nomination contest is over, I will get the people who voted for her. Now the question is can she get the people who voted for me? And I think that describes sort of one of the choices that people have, just a practical choice, as they move forward.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

74. And yet somehow you believe Hillary can convert the anti-Hillary vote and beat McCain? nt

[Ravy]

78. I think she has a track record of this, yes.

She has been remarkable in that way.

Barak has some great qualities as well. Being in a "safe" Illinois district and beating a carpetbagging "Alan Keys" for the Senate has not afforded him the chance to establish that he can.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

82. I think Barack can do the same thing. Just look at his campaign up to now.

He was more than 20 points behind 2 months ago.

[Ravy]

87. Some, maybe a lot, of that is media hype, I think.

They love a good race. They haven't been tough on him yet.

[elizm]

77. Go to one of his rallies and see if it looks like an angry mob of thousands....

I agree that the hate here on DU is unreal....but trust me, it is not what the movement is all about.

[Ravy]

80. I live in Florida. I would have loved to have tried that.

Sounds great on TV, but still lacks some substance (to me).

I travel a lot. Perhaps some day I will be in a city he is speaking in.

[madrchsod]

91. "looks like an angry mob of thousands...."

wow..i guess it`s a good thing you never went to a jessie jackson event

[krabigirl]

95. The fact that it is called a movement makes me extremely wary,

[Ravy]

98. I think now, that is where part of my uneasiness is coming from. nt

[NoBorders]

92. I hate this condescending, stereotyping BS.

I'm 40 and have voted democrat for many years. Yeah, I'm supporting Obama because I like him, not because i'm against hillary. And I'm not just 'some dumb kid'. So condescending.

[JorgeTheGood]

102. You're taking it wrong ...

it's the cockiness that is exposing the faux dems .. the anti-hillary crowd.

That's not you. Their bad behaviour is just taking your good intentions for a ride.

peace

[Bongo Prophet]

99. One ton? That's only about 5 or 6 avg size people.

Seriously, with all the shit slinging back and forth, I think the namecalling of "haters" is corrosive.
People aren't talking, listening to each other respectfully - and then claiming high road, that "the OTHER guys" are just "anti" just "haters" and so on.


self fulfilling prophecy.
Lame and pitiful.


Plus, as a bonus, it help the College Repub sockpuppets that are here to do their job.
Facilitating the ratfuckers - That is shameful.

[Ravy]

110. Maybe *my* size, but not average....

:toast:


Now I gotta be sure to exercise tomorrow.

[Bongo Prophet]

128. No more beer for either of us, then! My math was off, wasn't it?

:dunce:

I get a dunce cap for that.
But I do wish we could all communicate more honestly and respectfully talk policy differences and ideas for our future.
After the Bush Regime, we have to win this and do SO much together.
We NEED each other.

and so I get scoldy, "thread Nanny" but try to inject some humor.
Peace to you Ravy, I wish us all well.

:hi:

[Ravy]

130. Same to you, my friend.

I will be so glad when we have a nominee.

[Indenturedebtor]

100. Oh Please

I was an Edwards supporter for quite a while after looking carefully at all of the other candidates. Obama was always on my short list, and frankly I was not into HRC from the beginning. She was and is the most establishment corporate candidate of the bunch. She would have been a good president in the 90's. I would vote for her in the GE as I am a Democrat.

But dammit man I've seen WAY more vitriol coming from the HRC side of the aisle all through the primaries than from any other candidate's supporters.

You see alot thrown her way from people like me because you can't deny that she has the most corporate ties and this is a Liberal forum! I want the most Liberal candidate in the WH first and foremost. I want to live in a Liberal country DAMMIT. And i want the FUCKING CORPORATIONS OUT OF MY FUCKING GOVERNMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So yeah I'm afraid of her and her corporate ties. This is a pivotal point in our history where we can either plunge headlong into facism by electing another Puke, stave facism off for awhile by elecing a Dem who is in bed with corporations but won't overtly forward their agenda.. or elect someone who has declared at least an aversion to Corporate Oligarchy. Obama is much closer to the latter and so I support him.

There are other reasons as well but he is more liberal period. So unless she wins the primary fuck her and her oldschool way of doing things until then.

[JorgeTheGood]

106. use the f word much ???

sheeesh ...

[Indenturedebtor]

114. Sorry

I don't believe in editing out posts but that was unnecessary. I just get emotional about it.

And yeah we probably won't get corporations out of our government. But we have to try. Whoever is willing to try the hardest has my vote! They are the problem.... and you all know they are the problem.

Government is meant to be a Not For Profit!

[JorgeTheGood]

118. You're correct indent ...

corporations in government is the real problem and it affects every aspect of our lives.

Sadly, not everyone sees the problem because they have become dependent on those same corps
for their job, health care, retirement and so forth which is a convenient disguise for the
employers and a convenient source of denial for the employees.

Maybe some day.

[Ravy]

108. I am not sure there is an large anti-Obama contingent in her camp..

I don't believe for a second any of the posts that say "I will never vote for Obama", I think they are just reactionary to all of the "I will never vote for Hillary" posts.

Maybe they are both bullshit.

[bridgit]

109. You're never going to get the "FUCKING CORPORATIONS OUT OF (your) FUCKING GOVERNMENT"...

that whole matter regarding redress absent collective bargaining, was never meant for a guy standing there with a half eaten bag of Doritos, or a sick mule with bad-blood on a homemade halter...they were talking land owners, they were talking 'people of substance', sadly...they were talking corporations before they even knew what they were

[Levgreee]

107. We took a poll, about 2/3rd said they'd vote for Hillary

about 1/2 of Hillary supporters said they'd vote for Obama

[Political Heretic]

113. I am an older democrat.

Just sayin.

[mmonk]

115. Why are you blaming him?

[ErnestoG]

123. Hillars just projecting.

[AX10]

126. Actually, most Hillary haters are looking for anyone...

who had a chance of defeating her. They jumped onto the Obama bandwagon because
he was the number 2 guy in this race and he has the only chance to take the nomination from her.

[Ravy]

129. Do you think they will they stay put for the general if Obama is the nominee? nt

[AX10]

132. There is no promise of that.

[zulchzulu]

137. It's not "Anti-Hillary" necessarily

It's a matter of whether we want to return to the Clintons in the election, which would mobilize the Repugs like no other candidate could AND whether we want a return to the Clintonian style of driving the Democratic Party to the right as well as with negative coattails that further hurt the Democratic Party in the fall.

I know PLENTY of Obama supporters who are older Democrats. It's not a "generational" thing by any means. People want REAL change, not triangulation via faux nostalgia.

[VotesForWomen]

143. correct; it's just a lot of people who don't want to vote for hillary for whatever reason. nt

[dailykoff]

144. YES!! Anti-torture, anti-rendition, anti-genocide, anti-WalMart.

You're getting warmer.

[Perry Logan]

145. Hillary is obviously the villain in a movie these people are watching.

It's a case of bigotry disguised as politics. We get a dozen bullshit accusations against her a day. They get refuted...then they get repeated endlessly. Very bad for the party.

[MadHound]

146. LOL, you're so funny

Anybody who isn't voting for Hillary is a bigot eh? Even though people have plenty of reasons not to like Hillary(IWR, Patriot Act, etc. etc), it's all really about bigotry according to you. Even though both men and women dislike Hillary, those women must be bigots eh? Even though instead of voting for a white woman, they're voting for a black man, they must be bigots. Even though these people present calm, logical reasons for their decision, they must be bigots eh?

You must be either delusional and/or high. Your critique simply doesn't hold water.

[Leopolds Ghost]

147. How can you support Edwards if you endorse the policies of Bill and Hillary Clinton?

The only thing they agree on is mandated-by-law individual consumption
of privatized commercial products, such as cars and health care.

And that is nothing to be proud of.

Or are "older Democrats such as you" afraid to "roll the dice" and that's why you supported Edwards (who called Hillary corrupt and her husband a corporatist) in the first place? (And yes I know Edwards used to be on their side of things, as a member of the DLC in 1998 when he was elected in North Carolina. So thats saying something).

[Ravy]

152. Good question.

And I am not in the Clinton camp either. I see pluses and minuses to both remaining top candidates.

But to answer your question, the pluses to me for Clinton would be that she would be able to take it to the republicans if elected and really reverse many of the detrimental policies from the bush administration.

I do not think Obama will do this. In fact, I see him distancing himself from the Democratic Party (not so much on goals policies, but on the politics of it). I don't particularly care for the "let bygones be bygones" lets be friends approach when the sense of the country is now so strongly in favor of the Democrats.

I don't think we will have to compromise much on our agenda moving forward, with a Democrat in the oval office. I think Obama will.

Obama's way may be much better for America in the long run. I don't know. But I think I was drawn to JE largely because of his promise to fight, and keep fighting. Hillary is much closer to that position than Obama.

[rucky]

148. On GD-P, people conclude what they want to conclude.

and they can always find posts to back it up.

[demo dutch]

150. AND ME!!! Especially by suggesting he can get the Clinton votes!

[WillyT]

154. Well... At Least You Didn't Say It's Anti-Woman

That's refreshing.

:shrug:

[Vinca]

155. ?? I'm voting FOR Obama, not against Hillary . . . and I'm an older Democrat. nt

[Ravy]

156. I wish I saw what you see.

Maybe I am still in a funk about Edwards dropping the race. I am becoming less excited by the day.

[Warren Stupidity]

157. So you are going to vote McCain instead?

Last I looked, McCain is a rightwing Republican on about 90% of the issues.

[AJH032]

160. I found Obama's comment quite arrogant

the one where he claimed he could win her support if he's the nominee, but he doesn't think she'd win his support if she's the nominee.

[Radical Activist]

161. Obama is the only one giving people something to vote FOR.

He isn't running as a safe alternative who isn't as bad as the Republicans, like Clinton is. He isn't running by demonizing an enemy like Edwards did. He's the only candidate giving people something positive to vote FOR. Yes, that actually appeals to a lot of people, and its the only way we'll defeat McCain.