Misogynists

[DaveJ]

I wonder how many of the Hillary bashes are misogynists. Maybe I'm alone, but I know of two Obama supporters at work, and they are both misogynists. By misogynists, I mean one who says he is prepared for disappointment whenever he gets a female on the line when calling tech support, and another who is a past political activist for Kennedy who has made references to the 'guy code' recently around the office. Both are in upper level management positions.

My opinion is objective. My personal interests might compelled me to support Obama since he is my state senator after all, and I think things are going fairly well around here.

But the candidates' personalities do make a difference.

As far as Obama's anti-war stance, it has only been rhetoric. It makes me very nervous having someone who's rhetoric does not match his voting history. Hillary on the other hand says it like it is. I am deeply troubled by our decent into a neo Nazi state, but Obama voted to fund it just as Hillary did.

You can see why I rarely posts OPs, but I felt compelled to do so tonight.

[goldcanyonaz]

1. Thank you for this post. This election has been a real eye opener for me as a woman.

[cooolandrew]

103. Come on it is just as outrageous as me saying everyone not in favour of barack is racial. Not true.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

114. Misogyny colors perspectives of men AND women

...whether or not they realize or admit it. Misogyny is even more pervasive in our culture than racism, and is therefore more difficult to overcome. It is engrained in our mostly male-identified and dominated society that "men make better leaders". Male candidates are not called "shrill" or "bitchy". If they are it is in an effort to emasculate the candidate. A male candidate is not accused of being "hysterical" or having a "meltdown" if they show justified anger in a debate. Their laughs are not described as "cackles". If a female candidate is tenacious and relentless on a point it is a negative - she is like a "nagging housewife"

A male candidate's physical appearance is not as closely scrutinized or publicly commented on as a female's. Powerful men are far less likely than powerful women to receive gender-based criticism. If someone disagrees with a male candidate's policies they will not not as often extrapolate into attacks on the candidate's looks or personal life. (eg, Chris Matthews said the reason Clinton is a candidate for president "is that her husband messed around", and Limbaugh asked "Will this country want to actually watch a woman get older before their eyes on a daily basis?)

Comments right here on this board, such as "No REAL WOMAN would have (voted) to send other people's children to kill and die in Iraq" show sexist attitudes know no political boundaries.

Gloria Steinem recently wrote,

"So why is the sex barrier not taken as seriously as the racial one? The reasons are as pervasive as the air we breathe: because sexism is still confused with nature as racism once was; because anything that affects males is seen as more serious than anything that affects “only” the female half of the human race; because children are still raised mostly by women (to put it mildly) so men especially tend to feel they are regressing to childhood when dealing with a powerful woman; because racism stereotyped black men as more “masculine” for so long that some white men find their presence to be masculinity-affirming (as long as there aren’t too many of them); and because there is still no “right” way to be a woman in public power without being considered a you-know-what. But what worries me is that he is seen as unifying by his race while she is seen as divisive by her sex.

What worries me is that she is accused of “playing the gender card” when citing the old boys’ club, while he is seen as unifying by citing civil rights confrontations.

What worries me is that male Iowa voters were seen as gender-free when supporting their own, while female voters were seen as biased if they did and disloyal if they didn’t.

[andyrowe]

2. Awful hit piece. So do you wonder how many O haters are

rascist? We have to stay above the gender/race stuff.

[DaveJ]

11. You are right, but.....

We do have racism and misogyny affecting the vote. Sorry for breaking the story here.

The candidates should stay above it, but the the populace has to work through it.

[pampango]

98. It's no wonder that Rush and the boys are enjoying the sight of us accusing

each other of racism and misogyny. In the past we have largely saved such accusations for the Repubs.

They will have plenty of ammunition now the next time we accuse a Repub of racism or misogyny. It won't mean they aren't guilty of it, but it will be easier for them to do a spin job on it by pointing out that Democrats are always accusing someone of racism or misogyny, even fellow Democrats.

Look, are there some Democrats who oppose Hillary because she is a woman and some who oppose Obama because he is an African American? Sure. Most of us are proud that our party has broken gender and racial barriers in this nomination process, but not everyone. Most of us prefer one candidate over the other for issue or character reasons, as it should be.

If at times we are frustrated that our candidate is not doing better than we think that he or she should, it is tempting to blame this on racism or misogyny. They both have won primaries over plenty of white men, while benefiting from enthusiastic support from voters who identify with each for gender or racial reasons. So to some extent, they may suffer for what race or gender they are, but to another extent they may benefit from it.

[Yurovsky]

133. I think the racism stuff holds much more water ...

everybody has a woman in their life they love (mama).

A lot of folks wouldn't spit on me if I was on fire just because of the color of my skin.

[CoffeeCat]

3. Ummmmm....I think most of the mysoginists...

...are parked out at the Republican party. If you really and truly hate women, why would you step
foot in the Dem party?

Most mysoginists don't exactly find a lot of companionship in our party--the party of "choice" the party
of Feminism, the party of "NOW" the party that fights for equal rights and equal pay at every turn.

That's a bit bizarre, don't you think? Insinuating that those in our party who don't like Hillary...hate women in general?

Isn't that a bit insulting to women in our party?

[splat]

6. The old boy network is exclusive everywhere

[CoffeeCat]

10. Well, you can say that...

...but I think the original accusation is a bit absurd---considering that
the vast majority of Democrats believe in basic Feminist principles.

I think it's a way to distort and bash those who do not share a certain
political opinion, and that's underhanded and dishonest.

It's too bad.

[Triana]

44. Nap. I agree with splat. The GOB network is alive and well in BOTH parties..

..Just because a man is a Democrat does NOT in any way, shape, form, or fashion auto-exempt him from simultaneously being a misogynist - my LIFE experience with Democratic males bears that out.

Republican men DO NOT have the market cornered on misogyny.

No way.

[arewenotdemo]

70. True enough. But Hillary would have wrapped me and a lot of other

anti-war Democrat males up if she had not taken on the worst attributes of my gender to show the nation that she was "strong enough" to be Commander-in-Chief by voting to send other people's children to kill and die in Iraq.

No REAL WOMAN would have made that call. SHE DID.

[moodforaday]

130. Hillary *is*

part of the old "boy" network, make no mistake. Or do you think Rupert Murdoch is a progressive?

Then again, you can just look at the votes and the corporate sponsorship. In that light, there is very little difference between them, and there will be very little cause to celebrate when either wins.

[VotesForWomen]

94. you can quibble about terms, but if you don't think there is sexism in the dem party you are truly o

out of touch with the real world.

[EFerrari]

4. Opinion by definition isn't objective. n/t

[saltpoint]

100. Thank you.

[ErnestoG]

5. NOBODY'S opinion is objective, for godssake.

[BlackVelvet04]

7. My dad, who usually votes republican, said he would

vote for Edwards or Obama but not Clinton. I love him dearly but he's a misogynist. Always has been. He keeps calling me up with crap about the Clintons....the last "alert" was the Kathleen Willey book. After I did research on Willey and passed the information on he shut up for a week or two.

[scheming daemons]

18. Disliking Bill Clinton makes one a misogynist?

nm

[BlackVelvet04]

23. No..... blaming Hillary for Bill's faults is. n/t

[DaveJ]

19. Thank you...

It's not just a portion of the U.S. but a large portion of the PLANET who clearly wants to hold women back. It's a systematic process that they make no apology for. Even if Hillary is only 90% of what Obama is, I think she should win just to make the necessary changes that the world desparately needs.

Sorry for bringing gender issues into it, but come on people....

I love Obama's speeches, and I think he MAY even yield more profits for me, but I have no reason to think he will end war any sooner than Hillary.

[loveangelc]

8. Yes, I'm a total misogynist because I see through Hillary's BS.

[Skittles]

74. you're missing the point

it's not being said that everyone who does not support HRC is a misogynist - but that a LOT OF THEM ARE.

[Colobo]

9. I wonder how many of the Obama bashers are racists...

[eowyn_of_rohan]

122. There could be racism involved for some people, possibly subconscious.

[Buzz Clik]

12. Just about every Hillary supporter I've encountered is a misogynist.

Guys that simply want a "skirt" in the White House. A guy downtown wearing a Hillary button used the word "bitch". Self-loathing women who support Hillary only because their domineering husbands tell them to. It's horrible.

[goldcanyonaz]

15. And, I've seen many blacks who are only voting for Obama because he is also black.

There's some in every crowd, but the overt sexism associated with Clinton on the airwaves and online is nothing less than disgusting.

I've been called a sellout quite a few times for my voting for Clinton over Obama.

[Buzz Clik]

20. It's a pisser, isn't it? And because I support Obama, I'm now a misogynist.

[VotesForWomen]

95. well, you started it. nt

[Buzz Clik]

115. LOL! You sound like my eight-year-old daughter fighting with her older sister.

Ok, what exactly did I start? This thread? The name-calling?

I don't think so.

Nice try.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

118. Why do you make that extrapolation?

YOurs is one of many posts in this thread that hyperbolizes this to mean that a vote for Obama is a vote against women. The original post does not in any sense make that accusation.

[Buzz Clik]

120. Extrapolation? You've got to be kidding. Read the OP again.

The first sentence speaks of "Hillary bashers" and immediately discusses Obama supporters:

Maybe I'm alone, but I know of two Obama supporters at work, and they are both misogynists. By misogynists, I mean one who says he is prepared for disappointment whenever he gets a female on the line when calling tech support, and another who is a past political activist for Kennedy who has made references to the 'guy code' recently around the office.

No extrapolation necessary. It's all in black and white (right, Bill?).

[eowyn_of_rohan]

121. Sorry, I didn't read it like you do

She said she wonders how many of the Hillary bashers are misogynists then tells of 2 people she knows who happen to be Obama supporters plus have sexist attitudes towards women, on the job. Many here seem to take that to mean anyone who supports Obama has anti-woman attitudes, which is absurd. I took it to mean could misogygny be a factor with some who BASH Hillary. BTW, I am not supporting either CLinton or Obama at this point, so I have no pro-Hillary agenda.

[Buzz Clik]

129. Don't worry about your agenda or lack of one -- this is actually about the OP

I don't assume that the author is taking a "support Hillary or you're misogynist" stand, but the author is unquestionably making the suggestion that misogynists naturally oppose Hillary. I don't see this as a stream of consciousness from the author -- a point is definitely being made.

And, for the record, here at DU I have been called both a misogynist and homophobe simply because of my avatar and sig line.

So, as an Edwards supporter, I can see why you might just take it purely at face value. Having been on the receiving end of this kind of blanket characterization over and over again from fans of Hillary, I know better.

[FlyingSquirrel]

60. Dude that just seems totally strange to me

Twilight Zone strange.

Wouldn't it be more like guys WOULDN'T want a 'skirt' in the WH? I'm supposed to believe a guy downtown wearing a Hillary button hates women? Wouldn't the so-called self-loathing women OPPOSE Hillary because their domineering husbands tell them to? Exactly how domineering are these husbands, do they let their wives vote?

Nothing about your post makes any sense to me, which makes me wonder exactly what your purpose here is....................

[Buzz Clik]

116. Clue: my post was pure bullshit. Pure bullshit. Just like the OP.

I can claim anything I want and tell any fanciful tale I please on the Internet. I'm anonymous, and no one can prove me wrong.

The difference? I admit it's a big fib. The author in the OP won't.

[FlyingSquirrel]

132. Ah, fooled by my literal nature again. :-)

[sandnsea]

13. Hillary's pro-war rhetoric

I'd rather have anti-war rhetoric than this shit.

There is a very easy way to prevent anyone from being put into harm’s way, that is for Saddam Hussein to disarm. And I have absolutely no belief that he will. I have to say that this is something I’ve followed for more than a decade. If he were serious about disarming, he would have been much more forthcoming. . . . I ended up voting for the resolution after carefully reviewing the information, intelligence that I had available, talking with people whose opinions I trusted, trying to discount the political or other factors that I didn’t believe should be in any way part of this decision.
Hillary addresses Code Pink, March 7, 2003.

Tonight, the President gave Saddam Hussein one last chance to avoid war, and the world hopes that Saddam Hussein will finally hear this ultimatum, understand the severity of those words, and act accordingly. While we wish there were more international support for the effort to disarm Saddam Hussein, at this critical juncture it is important for all of us to come together in support of our troops and pray that, if war does occur, this mission is accomplished swiftly and decisively with minimum loss of life and civilian casualties.
March 17 2003 (Invasion)
We are in a two-front war. We are offense in Iraq and we have to finish the job
March 19 2003

“We must stay the course” in both Iraq and Afghanistan, and asked for more troops to finish the job.
“We have to exert all of our efforts militarily”
November 29, 2003 Hilary visits the troops In Iraq and Afghanistan

I am both a little optimistic and a little pessimistic, but what I'm trying to do is be realistic about where we are and what we need to be successful. We have no option but to stay involved and committed.
Dec 15, 2003 Speech to CFR

"The consensus was the same, from the Clinton administration to the Bush administration," she said. "It was the same intelligence belief that our allies and friends around the world shared.
"But I think that in the case of the administration, they really believed it. They really thought they were right, but they didn't let enough sunlight into their thinking process to really have the kind of debate that needs to take place when a serious decision occurs like that." (They believed it, but her people didn't??)
April 2004 Larry King

It's regrettable that the security needs have increased so much. On the other hand, I think you can look at the country as a whole and see that there are many parts of Iraq that are functioning quite well," Clinton said.
It is time for the President to stop serving up platitudes and present us with a plan for finishing this war with success and honor – not a rigid timetable that terrorists can exploit, but a public plan for winning and concluding the war.
Nov 2005 Letter To Constituents

nor do I think it is smart strategy to set a date certain.
June 2006 TBA

"Now it's time to say the redeployment should start in 90 days or the Congress will revoke authorization for this war,"
Feb 2007

[Boojatta]

14. "You can see why I rarely posts OPs"

I'm curious about your reason for rarely posting OPs. I'd rather read an explanation from you than make a guess.

[DaveJ]

25. Well I knew the subject line would cause a fuss

And I did not care.

These unspoken rules like, this month we can't say 'misogyny' or 'racism' aer complete B.S. to me.

To, me, that is exactly what we should be talking about. But, clearly I'm in the minority, yet I don't care.

I'm very anti-rule, anti-conformism, and such, it just makes me an outcast to most social circles.

[LadyVT]

31. I know what you mean

I agree this needs to be discussed. Pretending it isn't there or we must "rise above it" just continues its occurrence and influence. I don't think the original poster is accusing all Obama supporters of being misogynist, or supporting him for that reason. That's silly. But there is a lot of misogynistic commentary in the media and on various forums online. Chris Matthews was just pressured by his network to apologize to women for the ugly misogynistic (really horrible) statements he's been making about Hillary and other women politicians. He apologized on television 2 weeks ago, after women reading Emily's List wrote in to the network. This stuff demeans women AND men.

Forgive me, djohnson, if I've mischaracterized your original intent in posting.

It's still acceptable in this culture to call HIllary Clinton a "ball-breaking bitch" and to sell a "Hillary nutcracker" online, with spikes on its "thighs" --there's no outcry; people will sometimes even laugh about it, as they did about abhorrent behavior toward Blacks in the 60s. If someone called Barack Obama something equally as disgusting, like "a Black b*stard," or sold a disgusting nutcracker made out of a figurine of him having sex with a White woman, would there be no outcry? We know there would be.

[DaveJ]

40. Thanks

Totally agree. :hi: BTW, again, Obama may be more liberal, which would make him better in many respects, but the difference is marginal IMO. If Obama could be more forthright about his voting record I would have more respect for him. In the meantime, I think it does make a difference that we could elect a woman and shove that in the face of many other nations who consider females 2nd class citizens.

[Bonobo]

16. Hi! I've "bashed" Hillary but am not a misogynist! Just wanted to announce myself. nt

[LoZoccolo]

17. What is the "guy code"? The one where you are not supposed to...

...use a urinal that's right next to someone else if you can help it? Is that really that bad?

[JVS]

29. That and all the other rules we follow.

Like this one

Any dispute lasting any longer than 3 minutes will and must be settled by rock, paper, scissors. There is no argument too important for this determining method.

[DaveJ]

45. I don't want to keep you in suspense.

The guy was just talking about the fact that guys should not use blow dryers on their hair in the morning. I know that many people would not find that misogynistic, but, really, I don't want to go down that road.....

[Alcibiades]

58. How on earth is that sexist?

It sounds like a harmless joke. One might say something like it might be against the guy code to use a pink razor.

Strangely, one of the few times I've run up against the concept of a "guy code" was 20 years ago, when a feminist friend of mine wanted to sleep with me. She was 20 years older than me, married, and I didn't find her attractive. So I just told her that I wouldn't sleep with her because she was married. She gave me all kinds of grief about the "male code of honor," and how it oppresses women by having rules such as not sleeping with other mens' wive because they were their property. I didn't want to tell her the truth, and was bothered by her assumption that, as a 21 year old man, I'd automatically want to sleep with any woman, at any time.

Anyway, I do find it a bit galling to assume that any set of ideas men might have about being men, including something so trivial as whether or not to use hair dryers, is automatically sexist.

[Hoof Hearted]

135. Men who drink diet soda, or use light mayo, men who wear moisturizer or appreciate wine,

Men who prefer vegetables and rice over a big plate of semi-cooked ground meat covered with grease and cheese.

Men who would usually rather watch the Discovery channel than ESPN.

Men who read books.

Men who like antique shops.


I know what you're talking about.

[McCamy Taylor]

21. Someone in the 60s said that the nation would accept a Black president before a woman.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

110. Black men were given the vote 50 years before women of any race

[loveangelc]

22. Honestly, I just want to say Im sick of this shit!

No, not everyone who attacks Hillary is anti-woman. Yes, I'd love to see a woman as President. The oppurtunity I'm sure will come again, but NOT this woman. The fact that she will not admit mistakes is a very unappealing personal quality to me, that sounds a lot like Bush. I am absolutely convinced that the only reason she voted for the war is because she thought it would be the thing that would make her look like more of a war hawk. The idea that Im going to automatically vote for someone because they have boobs and a vagina like me is ridiculous and makes me very angry. I've actually heard of women condemning other women and men for not supporting her because she's a woman (the NY President of NOW). I'm voting for the superior candidate, and I obviously feel that is Barack Obama, not Hillary Clinton. I find this absolutely ridiculous and these women who state that everyone who attacks Hillary is misogynistic should be ashamed. Are you going to complain that the leaders of foreign countries are misogynistic when they fight Hillary too? I hope not. The women who say this are not doing their candidate any favors by giving us this bullshit about Hillary facing sexism. No, maybe some of the scrutiny she's receiving is HER FAULT. /rant

[Boojatta]

27. You have a point there...

but you might be surprised to learn that many Bush bashers are anti-chimp.

[2rth2pwr]

33. good one!

lol

[eowyn_of_rohan]

111. ahem - it is the WAY a woman is fought that might reveal misogyny

or sexism. It is hardly "bullshit" that Hillary has been facing some terribly sexist treatment in this campaign. That is a whole different issue than criticism of her record.

[Darth_Kitten]

119. Yeah, you don't have any issues with your sex, of course.

Since when was anybody telling you who to vote for? :eyes:

You protest a tad TOO much. What's the real story, eh?

[TexasObserver]

24. He leads among men. She leads among women.

Are those differences both based upon gender prejudices, or only those who support Obama disproportionately?

Based upon the numbers, a reasonable inference would be that both candidates have voters who are choosing based upon gender.

[jackson_dem]

92. Yup and it is very sad

[LadyVT]

26. If Obama were an older woman...

...and Hillary were a young, attractive male... would you feel differently about them?

Tonight, watching the news, I tried to imagine that while they were speaking. Try it out. It's illuminating.

Social psychological research has demonstrated again and again that sexism is deeply rooted in the U.S., and gender bias is a factor all over the globe. In the U.S. still have not passed the Equal Rights Amendment for women, so women are, and can be, still paid 70 cents on the dollar to men for equivalent jobs. One of my undergraduate students last week said she would not vote for Hillary because "she's an ugly hag! I won't vote for an ugly woman!" This is a real, national problem.

I believe if Hillary were a man, she'd be the nominee based on her record alone. If Obama were an older woman, no one would be listening to him.

Think about it. It's an ugly reflection on us, and it's hard to believe one's own choices could be so influenced by bias, but of course they are. Bias isn't just about other people's views--it's also about our own.

[Blue-Jay]

32. If my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

36. No, if it were based on record alone, Joe Biden or Bill Richardson would be the nominee. nt

[LadyVT]

38. Yes

Yes, I agree with you on that -- but they are no longer in the race.

[zulchzulu]

46. If Mars was 20 miles from Earth, there would be Walmarts there

If...oh, never mind...

[mrreowwr_kittty]

28. I personally met racists who supported Clinton while I was volunteering in AZ

What's your point? Yes, there are misogynists who will never vote for a woman. And there are racists who will never vote for a person of color.

You are falsely equating "Hillary bashers" with "Obama supporters". I am a big ol' radical feminist and I support Obama.

As far as Obama's anti-war stance, it has only been rhetoric. It makes me very nervous having someone who's rhetoric does not match his voting history. Hillary on the other hand says it like it is. I am deeply troubled by our decent into a neo Nazi state, but Obama voted to fund it just as Hillary did.

WTF? You don't have a problem with a "neo Nazi" state so long as the person imposing on you "tells it like it is". What-the-fuck-ever.

[DaveJ]

35. The first step to recovery is telling it like it is.

So yes, I think forthrightness does make a difference.

As far as comparing racists to misogynists goes, frankly I think misogyny is a much larger problem than racism. That's my opinion (which I think is backed by MANY facts) and I have a right to express it.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

42. I don't think either problem is bigger than the other

They are both an outgrowth of the sickness that is patriarchy. And white women have been complicit with white men in oppressing people of color just as surely as men of color have been complicit with white men in oppressing women.

[sfam]

39. GREAT Response!!! Truly, what is the purpose of this OP???

Is this one of those "If you support Obama you are probably a misogynists, just like the people I know who blah blah blah!"?

If someone is voting for Hillary because Barrack's skin is black or voting for Barrack because Hillary has a vagina, I'm not sure we really care to analyze much further about these people. I would guess though that these are a fairly small percentage at this point.

But I'm sure there would be no other reason that people wouldn't like Hillary, right? I mean if people hate Hillary, we can just assume that the vast majority are probably misogynists, right?

[Withywindle]

30. Obama supporter =/=Hillary-basher

Believe it or not, out here in MY real world (Chicago, for what it's worth) I have friends who plan on voting for the O and friends who plan on voting for the H. We do not break down obviously on race or gender or generational lines. We also manage to respect and like each other regardless.

I don't think this is as rare as your OP implies.

[femrap]

34. K and R...

I agree with you...misogyny is widespread and rarely admitted to.

I hope you don't get flamed to badly.

Hey, maybe I can divert some of those flames to me by adding that I think a number of the Obama supporters as well as the candidate himself are AGEISTS! He has made some comments that I found highly annoying. And I also didn't like that crack about the excesses of the '60's and '70's. WTF?

[Levgreee]

37. I tend to like women more than men, more prejudiced towards men if anything(and am a man) nt

[ScreamingMeemie]

41. Yep, that's me...a misogynist, because I don't like your candidate of choice.

And I possibly have issues that I haven't examined, and am silly, and can't see the forest for the trees... I could on, but you get my point. These were all statements by your friends, the any other candidate buy Hillary "haters". Cheers.

[zulchzulu]

43. I know a lot of women who will not vote for Hillary. Are they misogynists?

As for Obama voting for funding, he has clearly stated that he would support the troops that are now in harm's way thanks to people like Hillary who didn't see the vision or have the ability to see that Bush was going to invade Iraq.

Should Obama not support the troops or provide funding for vets as well?

[ScreamingMeemie]

47. Why yes I am...or I have issues. So they, the non hillary haters, tell me.

[DaveJ]

49. For christ's sake

I will say this one time only.

I'm obviously not saying every Obama supporter is a misogynist.

The point is...

Has anyone here wondered whether there are more misogynists than racists in the world?

It might be worth looking into, because considering the policy indifferences, it WILL decide the election.

[ScreamingMeemie]

51. The real question is, has anyone wondered why the term misogynist is

thrown around like an old football on DU whenever anyone expresses a dislike (not hatred) for Sen. Clinton? And no, I am not an Obama supporter. I supported Edwards, for my husband's memory. Now? I'm disenchanted, disenfranchised and heartsick. Get over it.

[DaveJ]

54. I'm sorry for your loss

I'm just expressing my own personally view of the process, and I am not trying to find fault in anyone else. I have not seen that term used in other posts, so I was not aware that is was being thrown around so often. It's just that women seem to be greatly misunderstood, not only in our culture but most around the planet. It's a greater concern to me, personally, than racism.

[ScreamingMeemie]

55. I don't even come here often anymore and misogynist is the constant

term I see. I believe misogynism is alive and well, just not necessarily in the case of a lot of people not wanting to vote for this woman.

[loveangelc]

56. If we're going to make it into "who has it harder"

Obama should win because there's only one black person in the Senate (Obama), and there is a terrible view of african americans around the ignorant U.S. and the world that they are all ghetto. It's a stupid argument.

[saltpoint]

102. What source can be cited to demonstrate that there are "more misogynists

than racists in the world"? Who keeps tabs on such things, and how valid and reliable are their data?

It might be more worth looking into how to diminish their impact.

I do not believe the 08 election will be decided on hinges of misogyny or race, but more likely on the economic downturn's impact on social priorities and the moral bankruptcy of U.S. foreign policy.

[VotesForWomen]

96. there are many possible reasons; one of them is a lack of respect for themselves, sadly, women have

almost as negative a view of women as men do. we are creatures of environment. much has been made (rightly) about blacks having low self-esteem and lack of a vision of what is possible for them in life, due to the discriminatory and disadvantaged environment that they grew up in. i remember one study involving young black girls who were given different dolls (some black and some white) and asked to say which ones they liked better or which were prettier or something. more often than not, the girls chose the white dolls. btw, obama's talk about the war is cheap, and you're naive indeed if you think there is any reason to believe that he wouldn't have supported IWR.

[ScreamingMeemie]

128. You're naive if you think either one of them represents change.

Give it up. It has nothing to do with how I "feel" or don't feel about myself as a woman.

[loveangelc]

48. AND ANOTHER THING

two people in your office does not exactly reflect the whole world, k? what a massive fail in your conclusions.

[DaveJ]

50. Actually the OP was more a question than a conclusion

But it seems the topic is too taboo these days.

[loveangelc]

53. No its not I hear this same silly argument all of the time.

The argument that people who don't support Hillary are misogynists. It's STUPID and the argument really pisses me off tbh.

[DaveJ]

61. Maybe so, but as my JFK activist boss says

"Women will not vote for Hillary." It seems he may be right. He is much older and wiser than I am. And he helped JFK get elected so apparently he knows what he is talking about.

I'll be totally frank. Can we talk about gender issues? Do gender issues make a difference?? Is it possible that some women do not want the added responsibility of having a female POTUS perchance??? I'd personally be a little relieve to have that man/POTUS thing taken off my shoulders. Is there any chance that this has something to do with a fraction of the vote?

[loveangelc]

83. um....what added responsibility would having a female President have on women?

and since when will "women not vote for hillary?" clearly hillary has a lead among women...

[Triana]

52. I can TELL YA the GOB misogynist network is thriving...

...being a woman and calling tech support or being a woman IN tech support - either way you're auto considered an inferior idiot if you're a woman.

At one time I had some young males working for me who could BARELY hide that they considered me an idiot because I was a female in IT. An OLDER one - even worse. Their sexism and ageism knew NO bounds.

My twenty-five years' experience up against their barely THREE years (fresh out of college) meant zilch to them.

They didn't hesitate to TELL ME how to do things (things THEY THEMSELVES had NEVER done before - while I had lots of experience with those technologies) and to criticize EVERY and ANY thing they could - just for the sheer sake of it. Sneering, sniping, condescending, arbitrary little warriors for young male superiority in IT.

ONE of them was written up for his HOSTILE, insubordinate, condescending attitude towards HIS BOSS (me). He REFUSED to do as I asked, refused to follow directions or established departmental procedures and policies, and did things he was expressly asked NOT to. He damn near got himself FIRED.

OF COURSE he was a Republican. BUT - misogyny is NOT confined in any way to just the Republican party.

It's alive and well - EVERYWHERE. Or so that's been my experience.

[sfam]

57. Please drop the tech support misogynist line...competent tech support is at level 3!

Regardless whether its a man or woman, the ONLY way you get competent tech support is after you've proben you'll stay on the phone through at least two tech support people who simply parrot the 90% of what you've already thought of. Be it cable, computers, DirectTV or whatnot, the problem is NEVER man or woman, its the level of tech support you hit. You're lucky if you hit someone in the US, for instance.

Bottom line: anyone who is thrilled that they're talking to a man at level 1 tech support is about to be disappointed. Man, woman, parrot, doesn't matter. They ALL suck. Most assume EVERYONE at level one are idiots - so if you're a woman tech support person not at level 3 and people treat you like you don't know what you're doing, chances are you have about the same response as your male counterparts. Most of us realize we have to gripe and bug to get ANYONE good. By the time you're at level 3 tech support many hours later, you're just THRILLED to find someone who can actually comprehend your issue - you certainly care about their sex at that point.

[Triana]

59. That doesn't explain the pissy attitudes of the twenty-something males ...

...in the industry.

And I'm CERTAIN some of them ARE in "Level 3" tech support too - and I've gotten JUST as snitty and shitty support from them at that level too.

No diff. They got an attitude problem - some of them, no matter what "level" they're at.

[sfam]

62. As someone who worked in IS shops, I say they have a pissy attitude to everyone...

Don't just assume they're jumping on you because you're a woman. MANY if not MOST people in IS shops have HORRIBLE communication skills. They generally suck when talking to anything with a blood pressure. Most assume they're right, and HATE being proven wrong. It doesn't really matter which sex proves this to them.

I'm sure there is a small percentage who fit the bill, but as someone who has worked in and with IS and help desk shops for many years, my perception as a male is that most have an attitude problem (same perception as you have, ey?). It's always a JOY when I find someone who doesn't.

[Triana]

69. I'm not assuming anything - I KNOW WHAT I'VE EXPERIENCED..

MISTER MAN ..and I experienced it for TWENTY-FIVE YEARS.

WHO THE HELL ARE YOU to *tell me* what MY experiences in life have been? OR to DENY them, INVALIDATE them, INTERPRET THEM *FOR* ME, or to MINIMIZE them for me?

YOU ARE SITTING HERE *DOING* JUST EXACTLY WHAT WE'RE DISCUSSING WHILE WE'RE DISCUSSING it.

(being a misogynist)

YOU DO NOT TELL *ME* what I think, what I saw, heard, experienced. YOU DO NOT get to decide whether my interpretation of my experiences are VALID or not, or to tell ME who I am, what I am, how I am, what I think, what I SHOULD think, WHAT my experiences have been, how I ought interpret them, or anything ELSE.

I will TELL YOU. I can speak for MYSELF thankyouverymuch.

YOU have not lived MY life, Mr. Man, AND YOU are NOT QUALIFIED to make any such statements about what I've experienced in it.

YOU.

WEREN'T.

THERE.

YOU HAVE LIVED EXACTLY ZERO days of YOUR life as a woman in IT. ZERO. You are NOT qualified to make any judgements about that.

THANK YOU Mr. Misogynist for PROVING MY POINT exactly about your type!!

Deny. Blame. Minimize. Invalidate. It's what they all do and your previous post covered ALL OF THEM.

Misogynist - methinks thou doth protesteth TOO MUCH.

This is EXACTLY the type of attitude I was talking about. There ya go, folks, right in front of your eyes. Pffft!

My how they crawl out of the woodwork to defend themselves once confronted.

[DaveJ]

64. Agreed, My boss was not talking about a particular level

In my department, we are aware of the need to get past the first line of support, and to get to the higher level techies. His attitude is more generally prejudice against women regardless of their position.

Is this reflective of many people in the U.S. and able to sway the vote, who knows?

[sfam]

65. Being a white male means "never having to think about it", but this doesn't mean...

That everyone or even a large majority of those are taking actions for misogynist reasons. Clearly some people are. And I'm sure if you deal with someone on a daily basis, you can probably figure it out, like your boss, perhaps.

Bottom line, if you are a white male, you almost never have to worry "why did they treat me like this?" Any other variation, and there is always an unknown quality to an interaction that went south. As a white male, I certainly sympathize with that problem. But clearly perceptions on both sides get skewed. This is the basis of the problem - you don't really know, so you have to make an evaluation, which may or may not be accurate, and usually is generalized to the larger population.

Case in point, my wife, who is Korean, has a Korean friend who thinks a very large percentage of people she works with in the banking industry are biased against asians. In most of her bad interactions, which she talks about VERY frequently, she's always talking about how they look down on her because she's asian. Almost never because she's a woman, incidentally. We live in Northern VA in a place which has a HUGE Korean population. My wife, for whatever reason, very rarely encounters any anti-asian bias. Like very rarely. They both live in the same place, and work with similar people, but have very different perceptions about the same people. Strangely, the vast majority of Koreans own houses, get good loans, etc, so the bias really doesn't seem that real to us.

[Triana]

68. Exactly - I've also seen it at ALL levels without exception.

ESPECIALLY in IT.

[Hoof Hearted]

63. Many misogynists will deny it six ways from Sunday and I'm convinced many of them aren't fully aware

of their own prejudices.

It plays a part in the real world, I've seen plenty of it, I'm sure some of it comes into play here. I'm also sure some of it is just misguided passion, and some of it is just pure tollery.

[Triana]

67. The highest form of privilege...

...is being totally blind to how privileged you are - and therefore denying that any misogynism even exists.

"I don't see it - therefore it's all just urban myth. It doesn't happen to ME!"

This fucking society is NOT classless in any way, shape, form, or fashion.

Look at all the MEN who deny misogyny - because, well, it's never happened TO THEM!

Pffffffft! Get a load of THAT logic.

...and many of them - are Democrats!

[Hoof Hearted]

91. Exactly. "Prove to me I don't like women! I sleep with them every chance I get!"

"Plus, my mom is a woman and I like her."

"I don't mind women bosses, I've just never had a good one."

"I think some women are smart, just at different things."

etc.

[AGirl]

87. You are right, many of them are not even aware of it.

[VotesForWomen]

97. yep; just like a fish can't see the water. misogyny is so a part of human culture that it is as

accepted and taken for granted as the air we breathe.

[Jed Dilligan]

66. I think people see misogyny where it isn't

more commonly than they see racism where it isn't.

Why? Because most men aren't misogynists, but most white people are racist.

[Triana]

71. I think a lot of men don't see misogynism where it IS...

...because it doesn't happen to THEM - THEY don't see it, so they don't believe it exists.

AND UNLESS you've lived your life as a woman, you are not qualified to say whether most men are or are not misogynists. How would YOU know?

As a woman, I can tell you MANY of them are. SOME are not.

That's not to say they are intentional or vicious in being so, many men are and - because of cultural conditioning - unaware of it. But that doesn't mean it doesn't EXIST.

[ErnestoG]

72. Hillars see it wherever they see criticism of their candidate.

[Triana]

75. Well *I'm* not a Hillary OR an Obama supporter...

..so chuck that theory - at least THIS time.

*beep* wrong again.

Thank you for playing.

[Skittles]

79. same here Triana

funny how they always use the same lines, no? :o

[Triana]

81. yea. Talk about your ASSumptions. Sheesh. (n/t)

[Skittles]

82. I've been in strange postion of finding myself defending HRC and Obama

when I am not a fan of either - I just detest it when their bashers don't stick to the issues - I see these two being raked over the coals in ways the never-ending parade of white men running for president NEVER endured

[Triana]

84. I'm sick of defending myself from their supporters!!

I don't heartfully support either of them but am CONSTANTLY getting slammed about one or the other as if I do.

They're damned trigger-happy in here. Jeeeeeze!

I agree with you too, that both of them are seemingly taking a lot more heat (and so are WE) because they're not white males.

Strange days here. Strange.

[ErnestoG]

86. Where did I say YOU are a Hillar? BEEP nowhere. Thanks for playing.

[Jed Dilligan]

76. People say it's intrinsically misogynistic

to, for instance, use the word "shrill." I'm not willing to dump a perfectly good descriptive word because it offends some highly sensitive people. Sorry, I value my vocabulary more than their feelings. Men can be shrill. Just because someone finds a woman shrill doesn't mean they have a complex around hating women.

I know misogyny is real--I know misogynists. They are a small minority of the men I know, unlike the majority of white people I have encountered who are racist on some level.

[Skittles]

73. I would say a big percentage of them are

judging from the visciousness of the comments I hear - absolutely yes

[Triana]

77. when you see the 'deny, blame, minimize, invalidate' routine...

...about misogynism coming from a man, you can bet he is one.

If NOT, he wouldn't be TELLING WOMEN what to think, how to feel, or trying to interpret their experiences FOR them. (ie: DEFINING women and their experiences FOR them instead of letting them speak for themselves).

And most of all, they wouldn't be trying to defend it by denying, blaming women for it, minimizing it, or invalidating womens' experiences with it.

HOW THE HELL would THEY know? They're NOT women! Pffft.

[Skittles]

78. absolutely yes

real men do not deny sexism because they empathize with what is endured by their mothers, sisters, gal friends - in other words, they see womean as people other then object they want to fuck

[Triana]

80. ...or a mindless object that they can dump their own definitions of women

into like a garbage can. (what they call a 'mind-fuck' I suppose). Being defined like that, and then debased as a woman and a human being based on that definition - is abuse and a form of mental rape.

Women can and should define ourselves and our own experiences. We ought to TELL others who and what we, as women, are and what we experience(d) rather than allowing others (esp men) to TELL US. WE are the only ones qualified to define ourselves.

And NO ONE has any right to argue with our perceptions. They are as valid as anyone else's. They are certainly as valid as any man's (who have spent no days on this earth living as women and who are therefore not qualified to speak to the experience).

[Little Star]

109. It is a dead give away for sure! 'deny, blame, minimize, invalidate' routine

[AGirl]

85. 95 percent of the Obama supporters i've talked to online are misgoynists

The women who support Obama doesn’t know he first thing about feminism, and they are usually young adults.


I will never support this *Obama* movement.

[ErnestoG]

89. And that was a scientific and completely unbiased poll!

LAUGH

[tishaLA]

105. Female Obama supporter

Undergraduate major: English and Women's Studies, University of Pennsylvania
Ph.D. Candidate: English with an emphasis on gender and race in literature of the early (American) republic.

Teaching Experience: Lots of classes in women's studies, LGBT studies, and English.

Now you know a woman and an Obama supporter who not only KNOWS the first thing about feminism, but also teaches college students about it.

[HooptieWagon]

88. Just a hunch

but I'd bet that there are far more women supporting Hillary just b/c she's a woman, than there are men not supporting her b/c she's a woman.

[LadyVT]

90. sex differences

There are few real sex differences between men and women, but the few there are are important when it comes to leading a country, I believe. I, therefore, have considered biological sex (all the candidates are masculine, one is a woman) when making my voting decision.

Research shows that women are less aggressive (not assertive--aggressive) than are men, are able to multitask better than men (process more than one type of stimuli at once) and therefore respond better in a crisis than do men, tend to seek harmony rather than discriminate between others more frequently than do men, and are more verbally fluent than men. Men are better at spatial orientation (telling where an object is in space, and what it would look like were it rotated), are more aggressive, unable to shift focus as easily, are physically stronger, and engage in displays of dominance more frequently than do women. They also have much more difficulty responding to emotional stimuli (when their emotions are engaged, their cognition shuts down--unlike women, who show no such response).

These are cross-cultural differences, and appear to be species wide.

I love men, but women are certainly equally capable of leading, and have some advantages. Time to give a woman the reins.

[Political Heretic]

106. That's simply not true. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that your not doing it on purpose.

The "research" on these generalizations, specifically:

-- women are less aggressive
-- women are able to multi-task better
-- women tend to see harmony rather than discriminate
-- are more verbally fluent

is absolutely not conclusive, or even agreed upon in academia and the sciences.

There are certainly two schools of thought about gender difference. One suggests that certain differences are biological and innate. One that suggests that differences are culturally constructed, and far from universal or even consistent. Even though I have a subjective opinion, if I am to be honest the only thing I can say is that the research and evidence is currently inconclusive. There is some research that would seem to support your comments. There is other equally peer-reviewed research that would seem to refute it. The debate rages on.

What we do know, is that no matter how accurate certain generalizations turn out to be, they are still generalizations (part of the reason their is so much academic criticism of claims of a biological base for the above listed potential differences.) In ever instance, there are men and woman who do not fit the pattern. Not one or two. Many.

There is also a heterosexual bias in your generalizations about men and women. When you look at LGBTQ individuals, making these claims about "men" and "women" become a lot more problematic. Which again, is more anecdotal evidence to suggest that it is not true that women just "tend" to be more one way and men just "tend" to be more another way.

What does this all mean? It means that your best bet - especially when choosing a political candidate is not to use gender generalizations as a factor, and instead look contextually at each specific candidate and their individual strengths and weakness and then make a decision.

[VotesForWomen]

93. many people (especially men but also women) are flat out embarassed/afraid to admit voting for a wom

woman, for just about anything, let alone for president. it is most definitely misogyny; they think a man is demeaned by giving a woman respect, such as would be conferred by a presidential vote, and many women are so lacking in dignity and self respect that they are more concerned with reassuring men that they know their place than they are with doing anything to improve that place.

[saltpoint]

99. Two guys at your work may exhibit misogynist tendencies but a

sweeping generalization that those who support Obama are "Hillary bashe(r)s" and/or "misogynists" is misplaced.

By the end of your post, the entire nation is plunged into "a neo Nazi state." I don't perceive that neo-Nazi ideology has a very firm hold on the mechanism of government in my city or county, or state, or even in the chambers of the 110th Congress.

[cooolandrew]

101. But that is the thing which candidate is talking of healing gender division and which is divisive.

[Political Heretic]

104. Be aware of anyone who says "my opinion is objective."

My opinion is subjective. At least I'm up front about that.

I am quite sure that of all the people who do not support Clinton, some are misogynist. Just the law of large numbers would seem to support that.

I think this is a dangerous path you are taking us down though, I'm not sure what good it does to insinuate the idea that if you support Obama, there's a good chance you must hate women. You can see why I think that might not be the best way to go, can't you?

In my subjective opinion, both of the two remaining candidate's policy positions are fairly similar to each other. There are differences, but in the spectrum of politics, those differences are minor. So I am forced to consider other factors in making a decision. Those factors include the following:

(1) I had strong disagreements with the Presidency of Bill Clinton. I realize, I really do realize, that it is not necessarily fair to adopt a "guilt by association" attitude towards Hillary Clinton, but in my research I've not seen significant differences between Hillary's positions and Bill's.

(2) Some call this a "meme," but I said it before I heard anyone else say it because its something I strongly feel: twenty years of the same two families running the government is enough! I can't tell you how strongly I feel about that. I'm thirty, and the country has been run by the same two families since I was ten. Before that a bush was Vice President of the United States since I was two (or three). Enough is enough.

(3) I have to fight, with everything in my being not to be completely turned off by Senator Clintons campaign tactics and style. I felt the same way about the former President. The Clinton's have left me with the strong impression that the only thing they really care about is the Clintons and maximizing their own power and influence. Like I said, subjective opinion. But at least I have the guts to admit it - it's very hard for me to get over that impression.

(4) In the time that I have been exposed to Obama, which would be several years now, I can honestly say that I can think of no other politician who has inspired me more. Perhaps his detractors are right, and I am being "swindled" by beautiful rhetoric and nothing else. Perhaps I am horribly naive. All I know is that Obama has the capacity to make me truly believe in the possibility of America again, and no one - no one - has been able to do that in the entire time I have been alive up until now. Oh I've voted democratic, but I've done so out of pure pragmatism. I never liked John Kerry nor did I think he would make a good president, but I voted for him. I did not like Al Gore in 2000 and understandably so -- the Al Gore I have come to admire largely emerged after 2000, probably in part in response to disillusionment with Washington politics. But I voted for Gore in 2000 anyway. I had mixed feelings about Bill Clinton, and strong policy disagreements, but I voted for him anyway.

I'm tired. I'm just exhausted of constantly having to choose between the "lesser of who cares." With Obama, I believe in the possibility of something new and different in Washington. Will it be everything I want it to be? No, probably not everything. Is Obama the lone progressive savior of our country? No, probably not. But really the only question that matters is, is he the right man at the right place and the right time for America? And yes, I believe that he is.

So, please don't accuse me of hating women because of that.

[Big Blue Marble]

125. That is a great post!!!!

Your wisdom and class shines through such a well-reasoned argument for supporting Obama.

Thank you for being such a thoughtful contributer to this board.

[Perry Logan]

107. It's the creepy disorder known as anti-Clintonism--common among wingers.

[michaz]

108. More crap! Enough already!

[Mendocino]

112. I'm supporting Obama

because IMO he has a better chance than Clinton against any Republican. If Hillary is the nominee, I'll vote for her. But in a race between Clinton and McCain, who seems to be on his way to the repub nomination, I'm afraid that McCain would win. No misogyny on this side involved, but the mindset on the other side could and likely be so. If someone in 2000 or 04 sat on the fence and didn't choose good nominees like Gore and Kerry, I don't think that Clinton is going to get that vote. I like to believe that we vote not so much for ones own interests, but to keep the other side from imposing theirs. If McCain or Romney win, we lose everything. Another 4 or 8 years under repub rule will doom this country.

[Maribelle]

113. Many obama supporters are boldly happy to play the misogynist card - such as the tears fiasco

tyring to cast aspersions on tears indicating "a weak female".

And the truth is just the opposite. Hillary has shown tremendously more courage than Obama could dream about, boldly going out on a limb for critical issues at the very same time Obama was cowardly voting "present".

[eowyn_of_rohan]

117. Thanks for posting this

You ask how many Hillary bashers are misogynists. Another question is how much of the criticism of Hillary is based on misogynistic attitudes? It is one thing to criticize her voting record and policies, or to not trust her connections, or to be simply tired of having Clintons around, but everyone here should look inside themselves and honestly determine where their negative attitudes are coming from.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

124. Too late to edit, so I am adding, Obama bashers should more closely examine

where their negative attitudes are coming from as well. I bash them both, and plan to follow my own advice. Hell, I may end up having to vote for one of them.

[Hill_YesWeWill]

123. I'm a Hillary Supporter and I know a lot of obama supporters who are

Not misogynists.

This is another baseless character attack against supporters that have the audacity to not support Your candidate,

Shame

[moondust]

126. Misandrysts.

How many of Hillary's supporters are misandrysts? Will Hillary get even with men for all those millenia of indentured child raising and homemaking?

[never_get_over_it]

127. I have been a feminist since I was really little

this is no exaggeration - when I was about 6 my mother ran for town council - this was back in the mid 60s when women just didn't do that - my mother was also divorced - that wasn't done much back then either - this man came to our house and said to my mother if you can't keep your husband how do you expect to hold political office - my mother lost that race and I became a life long feminist/Democrat

I truly believe with ALL my heart that sexism which is a much milder version of misogyny (actual hatred of women) is far worse than racism. I joke that it doesn't matter what color "IT" is as long as you have one. I have noticed more women being sexist against their own self interest way more than I've ever noticed with race. I have encountered sexism SO much in my personal life I couldn't begin to tell you the stories - mostly mild cases - most serious one is that several years ago I found out that I was making a ton LESS money then co-workers - which is because I moved from a more "female" type position to a more "male" type position and for a VERY long time nothing was done to get me on the appropriate pay scale - as a matter of fact I left that female type position for the more male type role over 20 years ago and I have just finally made it to the BOTTOM of my pay level a level I have been in probably at least 5 years - so I'm still not on track 21 freaking years later. And I will say that when this came to my attention and when I went to get it fixed the women manager I have had have done the best to get me where I should be - you see they couldn't just put me where I needed to be because the raise would probably had to been AT LEAST 25% and they only get a certain "bucket" of money to distribute to all their employees....

But I digress - I have been absolutely stunned and saddened by the sexist shit I have seen on DU since the NH debate. Both from men and women - and a lot of it the poster didn't even realize what they were saying is sexist - it is SO ingrained - that is why I really believe sexism is worse than racism and why I have turned from somebody who for her political actions disliked Hillary very much to someone who defends and actually supports her over Obama since politically I find LITTLE difference.

This has been a VERY hard month and truly VERY VERY SAD for me

[goldcanyonaz]

131. Bravo! This election primary has been very sobering for me too.

[eridani]

134. Both Clinton and Obama are corporatists first

That's why they are allowed to be frontrunners.