We don't need hope, we need help!!! - Maxine Waters' comments on cspan

[sfam]

I don't get why Hillary is so against hope as a concept. Really I don't. Why is inspiration such a bad thing? What a strange position to get backed into.

Maxine Waters' introduction to Hillary just went through the "we don't need hope, we need help!" argument on CSPAN. What a sad vision for the country - that the best we can do is pick a few people out of the mud, and try to dust them off a bit. Why not set our targets higher than this? Why is that such a bad thing?

[gaiilonfong]

1. Maxine Waters is CORRUPT

She owes the Clintons for helping her out with her ethics problems.

[jasmine621]

6. Maxine Waters is the person who tried to get the 2000 election outcome stopped.

She needed only one Senator to help her. Hillary didn't. I was surprised by her endorsement of Hillary.

[Clintonista2]

12. Umm you realize that Hillary wasn't sworn in to the senate until AFTER the 2000 election right?

Is a little fact checking too much to ask before you open your mouth?

[Dogmudgeon]

24. There you go, confusing us with facts again

The "Goldwater Girl" smear only had legs until some people (i.e., Pigwidgeon) pointed out that Hillary wasn't even eligible to vote for another FIVE YEARS.

--p!

[Clintonista2]

31. No kidding. These kids try to smear like Republicans, but aren't nearly as talented or successful at

doing so.

[QC]

51. Obamatologists don't need facts. They have hope. And believing. And Oprah. n/t

[FrenchieCat]

23. I like Maxine.....but to be honest,

she's a bit of a self hater; check out the big ass wig!

I don't think it's her fault though. Washington does that to ya, after a while; stews all of the hope out of you!

[in_cog_ni_to]

57. Now Maxine Waters is unacceptable to some DUers? Are you

out of your fucking mind? Take your hatred elsewhere, would you please?

[robbedvoter]

58. Wow! I have never thought I'd see the day I read this about Maxine. On DU. Just wow!

:wow:

[jkshaw]

2. Agree with you sfam

[thunder rising]

3. This is great!!! best we can do is pick a few people out of the mud ...

[Bonobo]

4. Fortunately the two are not incompatible.

[Cha]

10. Ye-ah, like she would

lead us to believe.

[Avalux]

5. There have been times in my life that if I didn't have hope - I would not have survived.

Hope gave me the strength and the conviction to keep trying and do what needed to be done no matter how difficult. This country would still be a British colony if our founding fathers did not have hope.

I'm sick of people bashing hope too.

[jasmine621]

9. There were more times in my life if hadn't received help, hope would not

have fed my children.

[Avalux]

13. The two are not mutually exclusive - why make it so?

I had help too. I was homeless w/three children. No need to create an argument where there shouldn't be one as Maxine is doing.

[Cha]

7. I'm so disappointed in the

disingenousness of Maxine Waters. I thought she was a real person who stood by her principles..she's knows damn well that Obama stands for the change we need and he brings friggin hope alive.

Whereas the hilarys are business as freakin' usual..wow, maxine.

[QC]

52. Yes, she must be a bad person if she's not wild about Obama.

That's the only possible explanation.

This kind of thing is where the personality cult accusations come from.

[BeyondGeography]

8. Obviously, help is not part of the Obama hope equation

He offers hope and hope only. He won't spend a dime on help. He'll hoard all the tax dollars in a hope trust, there to be kept from an anguished and needy population.

[Avalux]

15. WTF? Please provide evidence to back up your inane statement.

"He won't spend a dime on help". :eyes:

[BeyondGeography]

16. Geeze that's twice tonight...you'd think I wouldn't need this with an Obama avatar

:sarcasm:

Lighten up, folks...I LOVE OBAMA!

[Avalux]

17. Well thank heavens; you freaked me out.

;-)

[sfam]

A Hope trust! I love it!!!

That's right...Obama only wants us to hope, while we wallow in the mud. Ugh...truly, Hillary has just gotten herself stuck in a VERY weird position.

[tabatha]

20. His manta is "Yes we can"

bring about change.

That is about doing.

[BeyondGeography]

28. See post #16, tabatha

[Evergreen Emerald]

11. I love Maxine Waters. She is one smart female.

You don't get it. No one is against hope. Everyone needs hope. But, we need hope, like we need Santa. Hope is fine, and has it's place. But, like Santa, hope ain't gettin you that pony. Mom's hard work, and second job is gettin you that pony.

[Lucinda]

18. Exactly.

[tabatha]

22. Well, I wonder why there is a song called "Yes we can".

Yes we can do it - bring about change.

[Evergreen Emerald]

50. How do you "bring about change?"

with perrty speeches?

[Bonobo]

14. FALSE DICHOTOMY. Here! Read about this new and exciting logical fallacy!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dichotomy.

[Tom Rinaldo]

62. You are of course correct

But less people would get so worked up over this discussion if the dichotomy instead was framed as:

"We don't need more promises, we need results!"

That to is a false dichotomy also but it is a closer match to the type of rhetoric we here respond ot. DU you activists are "Pro Hope" AND "Pro Concrete Results".

Thew truth is we want someone to promise us help and then deliver. We want someone to offer us hope and then fulfill those hopes.

[BlackVelvet04]

19. hope, like emotions , is transient....

it has to be constantly pumped up to stay alive. Hope,in and of itself, accomplishes nothing except to make the the one hoping feel better. It's feel good stuff, for sure, but it tends to dissipate at the first sign of real opposition.

Give me tenaciousness and experience over hope any day....they are the things change are made of.

[sfam]

29. Hope leads to transformational change. Without it, you aren't getting it. Just ask Bill Clinton.

Plain and simple. If you want to transform the country to create something far different from the present, hope is critical. But don't take our word for it, go back to Bill Clinton's foundation of his 1992 campaign. He was a man from "Hope." And he wasn't talking about where he was born.

So if it made sense for Bill, why is Hillary so opposed to it?

The only reasons I can think of is either she's been linguistically boxed in to a silly position, or she really isn't interested in anything but incremental change on a range of separate policy positions.

[BlackVelvet04]

33. You'd have to ask Hillary......

hope in the right things is important. Hope that your hard work pays off is grounded in the hard work. Hoping for change doesn't make anything change.

[sfam]

37. Hillary clearly differs with Bill's 1992 message than. But again, I think...

She's just gotten linguistically tied up in a really stupid position. Truly. Her experience message has gotten warped into essentially slogging through the mud to make minor change.

If asked if she could ask for a "Redo", I'm pretty sure Hillary would have worked on the reframe some more. Help without hope is just silly.

[Dogmudgeon]

21. Any demogogue can offer people hope

Bad folks have done it, too. Hitler is the most dramatic example -- people went for the Nazi program because they were suffering and Hitler promised hope. The world paid a dear price. The fear is always there that a sweet-talking salesman will sell us an empty box -- like Dennis Hopper for AmeriPrise.

Now, Barack Obama is a damn sight better than either Adolph Hitler or Dennis Hopper. I make the comparison solely to illustrate that angels and devils alike can make the same error. I am certain that Obama is acting on the loftiest of principles. He can be described as what in Yiddish is called a luftmensch rather than a gonif -- a lofty thinker instead of a thief. But his rhetoric scares some of us who have seen "hope merchants" time and time again. And he appears to have no understanding of this, which is very unusual for a highly trained, active legal mind such as his.

And if he does know, he's not talking.

Vision, authenticity, hope -- they're nice things as intangibles. Remember, Bill Clinton had much the same appeal in 1992, but the core of his campaign was the nuts-and-bolts of governing. Hillary has the same orientation, and is forward-looking, in spite of what Obama supporters may claim.

I see no possibility that Obama would turn out to be anything more than a Democratic American president -- surely not a dictator. None the less, he speaks very little of policy, most of his supporters seem to have no idea about how he votes, and some of us are extremely wary of lofty speech unaccompanied by policy talk or proposals. We need to see more of the practical side of Barack Obama. We need to hear from the wonks and the analysts. We need to know what our dreams will cost us and when we have to show up to work. Hope alone is not enough.

--p!

[BeyondGeography]

25. So the Hitler thing was just a throwaway, but Obama kinda scares you

Your post reminds me of another fine yiddish term: fercockt.

[Dogmudgeon]

44. How do you get that?

Hitler was a "throwaway"? You know, if I gave Hitler more discussion time, you'd be upset at that, too.

If anyone thinks that an emotional appeal to hope is going to be taken up enthusiastically by everyone, they are more incorrect than they know. Hitler offered the Germans hope, and it was disastrous. Hope is like fire, as the old saying goes: "a faithful servant but a cruel master". It is THAT aspect that scares me, not Barack Obama himself.

Better fercockt than fertodten (dead).

--p!

[Levgreee]

26. He talks a lot about his policies

you just have to listen. and they are all out there for you to read. Hillary is not any more exact than he is in what she claims she'll do.

[Dogmudgeon]

45. Actually, I have read his policy reports

I heard about him maybe five years ago, and always thought of him as a wonk. A brilliant mind. There is no disputing that!

The "issue" I have is that none of his speeches appear to be about policy or specifics, they are emotive appeals. And he's an excellent speaker on issues, too, but that isn't what he brings to a crowd.

Hence, my near paranoia. A few others who responded took issue with that. I do not see Obama as either malign or without substance, I am concerned about the "vote for me and feel good" part.

Hillary and Obama are approximately similar in their proposals and the level of detail they have put into them. But Hillary is "selling herself" on getting the job done. Obama is exhorting us to forget the job and to hope and dream and emote. No doubt he wants to roll up his sleeves and get to work, but most of the public discussion of details has been in the debates.

Yes, Hillary exhorts us, too. But nearly nobody will vote for Hillary because she will make them feel good. My own prejudice is to distrust those who want to make me feel good in exchange for my money, my vote, my obedience, etc. I hope this explains my trepidation.

--p!

[sfam]

27. Barrack is a damn sight better than Hitler??? Gee, that's nice to know...

What a truly bizarre response. Barrack is a damn sight better than Hitler??? I've heard of truly ridiculous straw man arguments, but this one really takes the cake!!!

[Dogmudgeon]

42. You folks really liked that Hitler thing

So the "Hitlery" threads aren't fine?

Please re-read the post. I was quite precise about what I meant. If you are only seeing "Hitler ... Obama" then you have missed the entire point.

The short form: emotionalistic movements scare me, and Obama is walking a familiar path: "...angels and devils alike can make the same error..."

--p!

[BattyDem]

30. Hope and help are not mutually exclusive.

I like Maxine Waters, but I'm disappointed. :-(

No one who is elected to serve this country should be arguing against hope! :grr:

Without hope, no one will get involved in their communities because they won't believe they can make a difference.
Without hope, no one will vote or participate in our democracy because they won't believe it will matter one way or the other.
Without hope, no one will strive toward any goal because they won't believe it's possible to achieve.
Without hope, people will no longer ask for help because they won't expect to get any.

Hopelessness leads to despair, which leads to violence.

Ms. Waters, you are wrong. We NEED hope! Without it, we would see no point in doing anything else.

[KittyWampus]

32. Patronizing comment from a woman I respect highly.

[ecstatic]

54. I agree. It was uncalled for nt

[calteacherguy]

34. That is sad. I'm really surprised they would say such a thing. nt

[Maribelle]

60. Sad? Say honest.

I once lived in rural Alabama.

As a white woman, I can assure you, hope is worn thread-bare by decades of battle scars. Dreams have been shattered by endless pithy promises.


It's time for action so says this woman of action. It is with aplomb that she speaks.

[jackson_dem]

35. Which is better for folks? Vague hope or actual help?

[sfam]

36. Another false dichotomy. How 'bout hope which leads to real change, and

...actual help?

Bottom line, EVERY ONE of Hillary's detailed policy positions are dead on arrival the moment they hit the Senate. Without a clear majority, and a clear mandate, the opposition kills them.

Obama's message addresses this.

[stillcool]

38. Wow...I didn't know that!

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Maxine_Waters#Corruption_allegations
Corruption allegations

Waters has long been considered one of the last great practitioners of urban "machine politics." In September 2005, Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington (CREW) named Waters one of the thirteen most corrupt members of Congress. CREW's designation was largely based on the results of an investigation by the Los Angeles Times into non-competitive awards of federal contracts to businesses owned by or connected to members of Waters' family.

[sfam]

40. Well again, this isn't about Maxine - this is Hillary's talking point...she's just delivering it.

[jefferson_dem]

39. Therein lies the difference.

Hillary says I'll do it for you. I hear you. I see you...the invisible people. I'm ready to serve you.

Obama says democracy is bottom-up rather than top-down. We can change America together. Yes WE can!

[anamandujano]

43. Most people are not familiar with writing or changing laws.

They may see a need for change but have no idea how to fix the slow moving bureaucracy.

What do you think all of Hillary's meetings with people are about? She listens, then she tries to give a louder voice to the major problems that need fixing. That is bottom up.

You may want to tune in to her town hall meeting on Monday at HillaryClinton.com; you may enjoy it!

[anamandujano]

41. Wishing and hoping and thinking and praying,

planning and dreaming
each night of his charms
that won't get you into his arms,
so if you're looking to find love
you can share, all you gotta do,
is hold him and kiss him, and love him
and show him that you care

Show him that you care just for him,
do the things that he likes to do,
wear your hair just for him,
cause you won't get him, thinking and a praying
wishing and a hoping

Just wishing and hoping
and thinking and praying
planning and dreaming
his kisses will start...
that won't get you into his heart...
so if your thinking how great true love is
all you gotta do is...

Hold him and kiss him and squeeze him and love him
just do it and
after you do, you will be his

Show him that you care just for him,
do the things that he likes to do,
wear your hair just for him,
cause you won't get him
thinking and a praying
wishing and a hoping

Just wishing and hoping and thinking and praying
planning and dreaming
his kisses will start...
that won't get you into his heart
so if your thinking how great true love is
all you gotta do.....

Is hold him and kiss him
and squeeze him and love him
just do it and after you do
you will be his....
you will be his.....
you..will..be..his........

http://artists.letssingit.com/dusty-springfield-wishing-and-hoping-zq8566m

Furthermore, your characterization of Hillary's vision of "the best we can do is pick a few people out of the mud, and try to dust them off a bit." is overlooking the problems we face now that Bush has been running rampant for 7 years. Perhaps none of the stuff is at your door yet but it's on its way, have no doubt.

[TheDonkey]

46. That is a horrendous slogan !!! HRC better yank Waters off the trail

it is that sort of attitude that we Americans need help which people are fighting against. We need hope, we have the power and do not need some mommy or daddy to scold us and keep us in line.

[ErnestoG]

48. Cheap, word clever, meaningless.

I am really disappointed in her.

[ErnestoG]

47. I like Maxine Waters, but she's backing the wrong horse here.

"We don't need hope"? What the fuck is that? Is she clamoring then for business as usual?

Come on Maxine, don't disappoint us like this.

[TriMetFan]

49. Isn't funny how Maxine Waters is being put down.

Maxine Waters with The Black Caucus went to The United States Senate in 2000 to ask for the votes in Florida to be counted. Maxine Waters and The Black Caucus only needed just ONE SENATOR to stand up to back them. No one was willing to help them, not even Senator Ted Kennedy. What did Senator Ted Kennedy have to loose???? Nothing. This Senior Senator just sat there. Poor Al Gore with gavel in hand had to say "Can the gentle lady from California please sit down." Damn what would it have cost Ted Kennedy to say, I want to have those votes counted. Again nothing. Just imagine if Ted Kennedy would have done the right thing that day, what kind of Nation we could have had. Congresswomen Waters is not perfect, but she sure did try to fix the injustice of the election in 2000.

[ecstatic]

55. True. Maybe hope was destroyed for her on that day

Good point, and thanks for the reminder. I did post that her comment was uncalled for, but then again, her comment may have come from a place of hurt and disappointment.

[TriMetFan]

61. I don't think her hope was destroyed on that day, but

she knows it is "Time For Change" and not from some guy that has no really record. You guys don't understand that there is a lot of us out here that really had high Hope's for Obama. But then he does crap like talking down to Hillary, which being a women pissed me off. The he has people like McClurkin and Caldwell, which pissed me off because I'm gay. But then again some Obama supporters really don't give a flip about that. Also this Post 56 By Maribelle say a lot.
"Maxine Waters has lived a lifetime of hope, and now wants action. And she surely doesn't need any upstart to preach to her about hope. She is truly long past the hope stage."

[robbedvoter]

59. Yup> Tucker: "Is there anything you like about W?" Maxine - gives the look: "No"

The Spin Room, 2001.

[AX10]

63. As you said.

[bigtree]

53. we already hope

We need someone willing to engage in a fistfight for our rights.

[Maribelle]

56. Maxine Waters has lived a lifetime of hope, and now wants action.

And she surely doesn't need any upstart to preach to her about hope. She is truly long past the hope stage.